I'm sorry for the people on the Jersey Shore, BUT...

[Atman]

How many times does this have to happen before you realize you're not living in a safe place? We know the sea level is rising. Storms are getting stronger. This has happened so many times in the past. Are American taxpayers going to pay for you to rebuild yet again? I get that it's a nice beach...I grew up on a barrier island. There, in Florida, insurance companies no longer issue policies, and building codes require 3' thick foundation walls, or stilt construction. And you still can't get homeowners insurance. Why is New Jersey so special? It's time to move on. The Jersey Shore, and many barrier island communities, will be archaeological dive sites for future generations. Invest in a tourist scuba operation, and move inland already!

[busterbrown]

1. Get your point but..

Many have absolutely no resources to do what you suggest..

Who would buy their homes?

[MADem]

2. Rich people who can afford to build thick walls on high foundations, who like a sea view.

A lot of these people would be better off living on their land in a giant RV that they can drive away from a storm if needs must!

[RKP5637]

6. I was just thinking the same. High-end RV's today are a palace for those that can afford them. n/t

[Atman]

7. ^^^ Absolutely.

But a lot of these communities have zoning ordinances which prohibit overnight or extended parking of RV's. There are problems on many levels. I think there would be a lot of resistance to turning a beachfront town into an RV park from the people who want to keep their expensive homes.

[RKP5637]

10. What I see happening are some newer homes are being built way up on enormous cement piers.

The lower level is basically empty and camouflaged with lattice work and all. These are like really expensive homes right on the coast. No way are people in areas like that going to allow RV's to be pulled up next to them.

[MADem]

16. If the people who want RVs are also home owners and voters in the community, why not?

And they could just as easily pull their RV onto a concrete pad hidden behind some cutesy (and cheaply replaced) lattice work that would present an attractive scene to the road.

It's all zoning--if you want an RV on your property, you need a hedge or a fence or something on those lines. Easily done, everyone's happy.

High end RVs aren't cheap--we're not talking someone in a van, pooping in a bucket, here. They could limit the type of RV that is acceptable--one with internal septic/water, etc. Devil, as always, is in the details, but anyone complaining about an RV costing in excess of 100K on the neighbor's property might not have their priorities in line.

This could even fire up an off-season business opportunity--garages that store the RVs, and start 'em up and do work on them in the off season....sort of like how the rich put their boats up in the winter.

[RKP5637]

20. I've had to move a number of times with my job. Even if companies help out, you really don't break

even. Often I've thought if I had had a really really nice RV, I likely would have saved a lot in the long run. Interesting ... a well landscaped RV community as you said could work IMO. We well might see this becoming a reality. Some of the homes I've seen are really sort of dumb, built only a couple of feet above the high-tide level, a potential swamp in a storm I would think.

[Fla Dem]

32. Even those new homes on cement piers will eventually become surrounded by water.

It will be water world. The government should offer a one time deal to buy the property demolish the houses and let the ocean reclaim the land. In the long run less expensive. Now the Army Corp of engineers are constantly dredging sand from the ocean bottom and transporting it to build up the coastlines to save homes and beachfront. Very costly operation.

[RKP5637]

33. Just wondering ... with global warming, I wonder just how far the oceans will come inland without

some type of barriers? Yep, agree, the piers are only postponing the eventuality of it all.

[OxQQme]

42. "Army Corp of engineers"

Another socialist organization...lol

[MADem]

11. They are members of those communities--they need to "get correct" and "get political" and change

the rules.

Maybe they could require that homeowners build an attractive concrete "pad" with perhaps a cinder block fence, or heavy shrubbery, that somewhat shields the offending RV from the view of people passing by on the road.

You don't have to make a place into an "RV park" with cheek-to-cheek RV parking. Just ALLOW people to use their own, purchased plot of land -- and their electric/phone/septic hookups--to accommodate their own rolling homes.

It just makes more sense.

[Dorian Gray]

43. You think?

Those towns have ordinances up the wazoo.

I think in your OP you aren't taking two things into consideration.

1) Moving isn't cheap. You need resources. And they can sell, but they'd need another person to buy the property in order to afford a move (most likely).

2) People have communities/schools/homes/jobs/etc. that they love. Picking up and moving is not always emotionally easy.

[Wounded Bear]

18. There's a reason rich people build their houses on hills...

They know all that shit, and they can afford to plan for it and buy property that is sheltered.

[hollysmom]

34. hey I lived in an RV at the shore, but

it was not drivable after so many years. it even survived Sandy and needed about 2000 in work to repair it, but the state encouraged the park landlords to evict everyone and build townhomes on the spot. Not my fault. Chrisite is in wih his developers to make more mobile home parks zoned out of existence.
I agree if we could have moved them it would have been better, but we were attached to the ground with hurricane straps as per the law.

[RKP5637]

4. That's a real problem in some coastal areas. With ever increasing insurance I see

some really expensive homes that sit for sale, people wanting out, and no buyers. And it happens all across the housing cost spectrum. Often people at the top $$$'s and people at lower levels don't have much in disposable income, and can't just abandon the property.

[MADem]

12. Those people rent them in high season at thousands per week (if they're smart).

There's a way to get yer money back--people do love those oceanside vacations.

[RKP5637]

15. Good point! I have a friend that owns a second home in a beach resort. I was stunned when I saw

the rent they collect during season.

[MADem]

19. I have a friend who does this. He has two houses--one he lives in, one he rents.

He makes enough in the summer to pay taxes on both houses, do improvements on both houses, pay insurance for both houses (and boy has the insurance gone up) and make a tidy profit as well.

In the winter he lets the vacation house to people who live in the area but who can't afford the high rents--he gives them an off season bargain rent and they keep the place heated and occupied. In the summer, they go camping!

[RKP5637]

21. That's an excellent plan IMO!!! n/t

[Atman]

5. How about what was done in other flood zones?

Instead of spending government money to rebuild in the same flood-prone place, buy up the real estate. A one-time (last time) expense, instead of repeatedly re-building properties which are certain to be hit with the same fate again, probably sooner rather than later.

I don't see how we'll solve this without government intervention (unless Obama proposes it, then the Republicans have to vote it down). But why not just build a seawall out of bales of money?

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

9. Why ask this of them only

the same rivers flood, the same areas are hit by hurricanes and tornadoes, the same areas catch fire.

A better question is: why don't people understand BUT FOR SOCIALISM, they'd be living like Haitian shacks?

Another good question is: why don't people understand that BUT FOR SOCIALISM, there wouldn't be an insurance industry.

[Atman]

13. Flood-prone areas are often bought-ought by the government.

But you can't really predict where a tornado or hurricane will hit. We had a crazy-ass tornado rip through Mass and Conn a few years ago. Damage is still very evident, but it is a very rare occurrence. Hurricanes (or typhoons on the West Coast) can strike just about anywhere. We've experienced plenty of them in New England. But some areas are just blatantly, obviously, not safe for habitation. We're talking a slight risk as opposed to a near certainty. If you're in a "near certainty" area, why should taxpayers keep paying to rebuild resort homes and vacation homes?

[RKP5637]

17. Same for those that keep rebuilding on mudslide prone areas up in the hills. Some

areas are just prone to continuing natural disasters.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

40. What?! That's like saying there is no truth in stereotypes

Tornado Ally is where the tornadoes are coming. I can predict that with 100% certainty.

Hurricanes will hit the Gulf Coast and Caribbean. 100% certainty.

Now you try. Where do the fires burn up thousands of acres and big homes every year. You can predict this with 100% certainty.

[lunatica]

3. You've touched on the reason dystopian events kill so much of the population

[lapfog_1]

8. bigger seawalls are not an answer

nature is relentless.

But then I live in California... an a major earthquake is likely in the next 100 years (again, I lived through Loma Prieta).

And I come from the Midwest... and a tornado went right over my house as a kid (fortunately for me, not touching down for a few more miles... unfortunately for those that lived a few miles away... and yes, tornadoes absolutely sound like a freight train)...

Still... we KNOW that the coastal areas are going to flood every so often, more frequently now than before... and the floods will be worse... so maybe it's time to not build anything permanent on the beach.

[Atman]

14. Seawalls CAUSE problems, rarely help them.

In my old town, there are miles of seawalls. You'd never know it. Eight-foot high seawalls are completely buried under years of fake (reclaimed) dunes, and altered sand movement due to a jetty and a port. The new dunes were dredged out of the ocean and pumped ashore, propagated with sea oats. Now, when that giant storm surge comes, it can go over the dunes directly into homes.

You're right, you cannot ever win against nature, especially when it concerns water.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. with sea rise this will be question for not just the Jersey Shore

but the city of Miami... and large tracks of San Diego, for example

[TreasonousBastard]

23. I'm not that sorry...

I see the same thing here on Long Island.

Some people bought waterfront or canalfront cheap years ago and are stuck, but most of what I see now is big money buying big houses and keeping everyone else off "their" beach. That's pretty much what I saw on the Jersey shore.

Not so long ago it was the poor people who lived on the water and smart money lived on the hill where they wouldn't get swamped. Now, I see even tiny waterfront lots going for a half million or more if in the right neighborhood.

Oh, and there are still people whining about how they didn't gt enough Sandy money to rebuild their summer beach house.

Nope. No sympathy. If you build on the beach, you takes your chances.

[Human101948]

27. And then there are many here at the Jersey shore whose homes were demolished...

and they have no money and didn't get any of the dough that Christie promised them after begging the Federal government for the funds. (Where'd that go?)

Do you feel any compassion for them?

Yes, there are a lot of rich folks hogging the shoreline but there are also communities like mine where people can't afford to move. They are clammers, fishermen and low wage workers who don't earn much. All they can do is jack up their houses for $30,000 (whee! Another mortgage) or more and hope for the best.

[iandhr]

24. People have wanted to live near the water since the dawn of civilization.

The Ancient Egyptians settled along the nile despite all the floods.

[Human101948]

28. The floods made the land fertile...

Agriculture in the delta has traditionally benefited from the water and silt deposited by the flood (remember that the silt comes from eroding basalt lava in the Ethiopian highlands). This silt made the Nile delta one of the richest agricultural areas in the world and the basis of one of the most ancient human civilizations. Irrigation and more intensive farming, combined with inadequate drainage, has created swamps. The rise in water tables has led to accumulation of harmful salts, fertilizers, and pesticides in the upper layers of the soil. Farmers have been forced to use about a million tons of artificial fertilizer as a substitute for the nutrients that no longer fill the flood plain.

https://courseware.e-education.psu.edu/courses/earth105new/content/lesson06/04.html

[iandhr]

30. I knew that.

But ever since then humans wanted to live near the water was my point. And it took the Egyptians awhile to discover how to time the flooding with planting to their advantage.

[Atman]

35. No one on the Jersey Shore is farming.

A basket of tomato plants on the porch is not a farm, and doesn't rely upon farming. The Nile is a totally different scenario. They predicted and expected it to flood, and they benefited off of the flooding. In New Jersey, they're building weekend estates, then are shocked when the ocean eats their homes.

[mahina]

31. Looking at Africa after dark from high above, it seems most people still live on the Nile, or nearby

Those with electricity, anyway.

[zazen]

25. really important, illustrative conversation that will become much more common

I really appreciate your bringing this up.

It was interesting how Weather Underground had two major blog posts about global climate change in the midst of the storm forecasting and prep.

All but the most informed (and I'm not the most informed) just psychologically struggle to connect the dots between these larger terrifying trends and the next storm, season, year, five or 10 year plan. It's just human to react to imminent crises and avoid dealing with the longer term ones.

It gets more real when even Republicans, if their leaders can't silence the research and reporting, have to struggle with the reality of whether they want to buy or repair properties when in 30 years they could be sitting in six inches of water nine months of the year.

[rladdi]

26. Maybe they should be forced moved out of those flooding areas. According to Gov. Christie

there are a few homeowners taking a hard line on installing a barrier to keep the water out. He will be taking them to court he said. It is amazing how one or a few can halt work, but we see it in DC daily.

The other issue is how many time do you get flooded out before you take action and move. Just the real dummies will stay on hoping the Feds will pay for their care.

[hedgehog]

29. If the house gets sold to anyone else as a residence, then a new person

is sitting at risk in the flood zone. The only escape is a governmental (most likely Federal) buyout that converts the property to wetlands.

[hunter]

45. That's the only rational way to do it...

... large scale transplantation, recycling, and deconstruction of housing, with restoration and creation of new wetlands.

Otherwise coastal structures simply get ground up into toxic waste and navigation hazards with the next storm or flood.

The "invisible hand of the free market" simply isn't equipped to deal with this problem. The very wealthy can afford to lose a beach house or two, maybe even raise structures up on stilts for awhile, but ordinary people lose everything they have. There is no justice in that.

We've got to figure out a way to relocate entire communities in ways that nobody is left behind before everything turns to shit.

Unfortunately, it seems like the New Orleans or Flint Michigan model is our future. Just fuck everyone who doesn't have the resources to take the hit.

[JustAnotherGen]

36. I feel the same way

When tornados rip through the midwest and South.

[smirkymonkey]

48. +1000

[TBF]

37. Those people suck!

Just trying to get in the spirit. Next let's move on to homeless folks and bash them for awhile.

[Atman]

38. At least you completely missed the point!

Thanks for playing.

[TBF]

41. Yup - I'm sure I did.

[sweetapogee]

39. you cannot buy

private flood insurance. If you live in a flood plain then you buy your insurance through the government.

I grew up in Belmar and then lived in Tuckerton until 2004. True Sandy whooped Tuckerton but it's not like we didn't have storms that ripped roofs of houses in the 60s. The house we lived in when I was a kid, which my parents bought in 1956 had in the yard an underground stream at 11 feet below the surface. As kids would do, we sometimes dug holes in the yard and it wasn't that difficult hit ground water digging by hand with a shovel. Our basement was almost always wet and usually had some standing water. We were 8 blocks from the Ocean, 1/2 mile from the Shark River Marina. Our home was built in around 1890 and is still standing but today code would insist that a new home on that land would have to be built on a pillar foundation or slab. And it's not waterfront by long shot. The house next door burnt awhile ago and the town would not let the owners rebuild on the lot.

We had a 4' high chain link fence in the back yard and I remember the snow piled up to about 6" from the top. This was in the early 1960s. I read in the Asbury Park Press that Belmar got 20" so this wasn't that big of a storm.

[aikoaiko]

44. My grandmother's house was on 2nd Ave in Belmar - just down from The White House.

Spent many an enjoyable summer there.

[sweetapogee]

46. awsome

My grandparents lived on the 300 block of 4th Ave. We lived on 13th. I'm from an old time well known Belmar family. None of us are there anymore. Great place to grow up as I'm sure you know. Hard to believe I haven't been there in about 13-14 years. Property taxes are insane these days in Belmar.

[aikoaiko]

47. My grandparents were retirees from Jersey City in the 1960s and moved to Belmar

In most of the nice towns in NJ, the taxes "are insane" (in my Crazy Eddie voice).

[sweetapogee]

49. Christmas in July!

Even Tuckerton has become an expense.