"Women get more radical as they age because they lose power". Discuss.

[PaulaFarrell]

Last edited Tue Feb 9, 2016, 03:43 PM - Edit history (2)

I won't wade into the political mire on this, or even question whether women actually do get more radical as they age. I have but some I know were wild in their youth and are now pro-life republicans. But that's not what interested me in this quote.

Do women REALLY lose power as they age? In generally accepted terms, no. They'll be more likely to own property, have a decent job, etc. Sure, loads of women will never achieve this, but then they didn't have it to start with either. They may not have gained power but they haven't lost it.

So what is this mysterious power which women lose as they age? It couldn't possibly be sexual allure, could it? Gloria Steinem couldn't possibly be saying that radical feminists are simply bitter older women who can't get laid, could she? Because that sounds exactly like what the wingers say...

[Iggo]

1. No thanks!

[pinboy3niner]

2. Yeah, flamebait sucks

[PaulaFarrell]

7. how is it flamebait?

This quote has been bothering me for days. Ml

[Yo_Mama]

22. No, my female take is that it isn't flamebait at all. I'm glad someone posted about it.

Recently a lot of us have been smacked in the face with surprising positions from those we thought were solidly on our side.

I'm not going to go through all the reasons, but a couple of my personal circuits shorted out last week. I'm like the stereotypical android who got shorted out from logical contradictions. In Star Trek. Yeah. THAT'S HOW FLIPPING OLD I AM. Nomad. The female android. The androids that were going to take over the galaxy and keep humans as pets. Norman. Yeah. THAT'S HOW FLIPPING OLD I AM.

So I utterly dispute your characterization. Utterly.

This isn't flamebait, it's the common reaction of millions of women to some rather odd statements. From women, mostly.

[Blue_Tires]

61. +1

[Android3.14]

3. Tell you what, rather than telling us to discuss

Why don't you go discuss yourself.

[PaulaFarrell]

9. i was inviting not telling

If you don't want to fine. I'm interested in other people's take on it. Probably used poor language but to me or came across as if she was saying our only power was in our looks. My view is the opposite.

[Hortensis]

30. That lose-power meme is right up there with the

descriptions that so often go with it, "cute," "feisty," "perky," "out of it," "uuuglee!," "grandma," "adorable," "clueless," "cougar," "biddy," "sweet," "hag," "too old fashioned," "what woman?", "who?," "just too old." If I were more with it myself, I could come up with some better ones.

It's more an attempt to de-power than a reflection of reality -- though not when looking for a job. Steinem should know when she says women become more radical as they begin to lose power. Certainly a 50-year-old bookkeeper who is let go because she's aged into the wrong insurance bracket and then is refused hire for anything paying a living wage, might just become radicalized.

Many women, though, have college degrees, marketable job skills, equity in homes, retirement savings, interests, purchasing power, friends, and independence of choice and in their maturity are definitely more powerful than ever before.

No longer having to care for and worry about children, and perhaps losing the constraints imposed by older relatives, male expectations, and perhaps a missing husband here and there -- and giving up the more intensive sex-role posturing that goes with mating behavior -- also frees people to be who they want to be. If that's finally more "radical" after decades of relatively straight-jacketed cute babism and suburban working momism, why should any thoughtful person be surprised?

[valerief]

4. That's precisely how I understood it on Real Time. Women have power due to

sexual allure when they're young and get angry and "radical" once they lose that sexual power.

I guess she's been "going where the boys are" too often lately.

[fredamae]

5. Well, I'm personally sorry for

her experiences as she aged, but I have not had similar experiences. The "eff-it filter" came off a few years ago-but that's about it....My grandkids don't feel that way-they're still scared of "grandmas stop 'em in their tracks stink-eye"

I dunno. I guess I hope I don't fall down the dark hole she painted....

[Nay]

13. Like you, my grandma eye death ray is working fine, but I don't consider

that to be too powerful, mainly because women have always been able to keep kids in line pretty well.

As I've aged, I certainly noticed that men no longer paid much attention to me, but that's been a good thing. I never liked the attention; I always thought it was about my body, which it was. It's very freeing to not experience that anymore. I think that women, as they age, really enjoy freedom rather than power -- we are off men's radar, and we feel much, much freer for it.

[fredamae]

18. Well, I agree...

about the kids (bless their little hearts) but in my personal experience..men have actually displayed greater respect as I have gotten older. I agree with your analysis. Just never really paid much attention/thought about it that much, until now frankly.

For me the greatest liberty came when I decided to frankly speak my mind.

[dorkzilla]

6. Far from it, from my point of view

At 50, I’m just hitting my stride. I own my own business, I have a fulfilling and burgeoning creative career on the side, I have a very fulfilling physical relationship with a wonderful husband I adore, I have enduring friendships with both sexes, I travel a lot and have a healthy confidence but know that nothing in life is sure and that all I have I’ve worked, and will continue to work, very hard for.

None of this was true 25 years ago. I was in a loveless marriage with an overbearing man who told me he hated me, had no direction and had no idea that I could be the author of my own destiny.

None of what she said rang true for me, or any of my girlfriends. What’s more, none of us couldn’t give a fiddler’s fart what anyone else thinks.

[LittleBlue]

8. That's exactly what she was saying. Glad someone made a thread about it

By power, she meant sexual bargaining position. I also found it strange that she equated a woman's power with her sexuality, implying that power = youth.

[bettyellen]

10. I assumed she thought it was the youthful feeling of invincibility feels powerful

That was my takeaway on it.

[PaulaFarrell]

14. maybe that was it

I guess I found it kind of galling as an 'older' - it came across as though she thought women's only power was in their looks

[Bluenorthwest]

34. And in what way would men and women differ in that aspect? Men as they age feel more invincible?

For what reason would you or Gloria believe that is so? Makes no sense at all, women outlive men and are thus relatively more invincible than men. Gloria: 'most people my age are dead' Bill 'Most men your age are dead' and Bill is right. So?

[Separation]

11. Is this like when my wife asks

"Does this dress make me look fat?" Nope, nada, uh-uh.

[Skittles]

35. this is NOT the correct response:

"It's not the dress."

my coworker was in the doghouse for some time for that

[Sissyk]

37. Lol!

I guess so!

[Skittles]

39. he really was unsure what he said wrong

all us gals were howling at him

[Quantess]

12. Total flamebait.

Maybe it's true in Hollywood, unfortunately. Go start a thread about THAT.

You bring it to this lady, I'm gonna smack you down.

[treestar]

56. Why is it flame bait?

What is that upsetting about discussing it?

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

15. Now I'd like to hear her answer this question.

Sexual "power" didn't register.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

16. On second thought, has to be economic

Men get more conservative, powerful. Which is what i thought she meant

[CharlotteVale]

17. That's exactly how I took it. I personally don't identify with it because

I've always been extremely liberal ever since I became interested in politics, but that is exactly what I thought she was saying. I mean, she did basically say young women were only going for Bernie in order to get a guy, implying that they couldn't get one if they were older.

[alarimer]

19. I don't know.

I think women feel (some at least) they become invisible as they get older. I'v heard this expressed many times. I think there is some truth to it, in that our society thinks that women are only useful if they are young, thin and beautiful. You would think with the advent of feminism that this would have changed. Maybe it has improved, but I think there is a lot of truth to it.

Now, all this depends on what you mean by power. I don't think radical feminists are radical because they can't get laid. I think there's a lot to resent about this society and I think we need more radicalism, not less. But some people do become bitter as they get older (I can see some of this in myself, though I fight it, because I feel life has let me down somehow and it's only going to get scarier), maybe because they see that not much has really changed and has in fact gotten worse for people generally.

[Yo_Mama]

20. Or because they have more experience? That's at least more plausible.

I don't, btw, believe that women DO, on the whole, become more radical as they age.

I don't think women lose power as they age, except in old age, when we all do because we stop working and slowly become less active. But I have known a couple of much older women who were very active and exercised a lot of power, either in their families or in the community or in a company or in some mixture.

I think that until we reach the time of slowing down and stepping back, most people, men or women, become more like themselves and have more influence ("power&quot as they age. The accidents of youth are slowly worn down by life experience.

For many, that process may make them more "moderate" in the sense of being less absolutist in positions. Having a larger databank tends to show one life and issues in shades of gray rather than just in black and white.

Actually, the real right wing doesn't talk about bitter old women who can't get laid. They really don't.

[Judi Lynn]

21. How odd. Mysterious power? Really? n/t

[lapislzi]

23. I don't understand the way you're using those words.

Radical, and power.

What power? The power of giving zero fucks? Economic power? You need to define your terms before meaningful discussion can occur here.

I can tell you this: I am more empowered now at my age than I was when I was my daughter's age. That's a function of shaking off old habits, religion, etc. I am as radical as I ever was.

My daughter, in her early twenties, is as empowered now as I am. And every bit as radical. She is fierce in a way that I never was.

I guess what I'm saying is, I don't know what age has to do with it. And I don't know what power signifies in YOUR lexicon.

[ProfessorGAC]

24. I Don't Think Those Are The OP's Words

She was quoting Gloria Steinham from last week's Maher. And, i heard her say exactly what the OP says and found it odd as well, but Maher didn't really press the point because the segment with her was probably 20 seconds from close.

So, if you have major issues with the terms, i just thought you needed to know that the OP was quoting someone else.

[lapislzi]

25. OK, got it.

I don't watch Maher any more. Can't deal with his smug misogyny. I'm not surprised that this incomprehensible statement went unchallenged.

You can't make those kind of generalizations about an entire gender. That's absurd.

[treestar]

57. It's because people are not familiar with feminist literature

of the 70s. This was said then. I don't think it was meant as these posters unfamiliar with it are taking it. Older women of that era had been raised and spent their youth under the old values and didn't have resources - at least not as much on average. They would have to stay married. And were more susceptible to the much more often posed criticism that they were losers without a man.

[ProfessorGAC]

67. While I See No Point of Disagreement. . .

. . .i'm not sure what this has to do with my post. i was pointing out that the words were not those of the OP, but a direct quote of someone else.

I admit i did suggest i found it an odd comment, but i didn't mean that as a value judgment. Just something i didn't expect to hear.

[treestar]

71. It was not odd to me since I'd heard/read about it before

When reading a lot of feminist literature - back in the 80s when I read that sort of thing, the works I read were written in the 60s and 70s. Thus it is not odd Gloria still goes around saying this. She and others were saying it back then. People who don't know about her history start judging her on it and going on how it is bullshit. It wasn't in the earlier times. Women her age now were raised in much more patriarchal times. Younger people don't need to jump on her since they find it odd when she's the one that made it irrelevant in large part. She probably hopes it is still true because of baby boomers aging. Doesn't look like that's the case though.

[seaotter]

26. The very premise is sexist on its face.

Women LOSE power as they age and garner more insight and experience into life, while the opposite is true of men?
That is one load of horse shit.

[pnwmom]

27. In some fields, like acting and being a celebrity in general, that's probably true. n/t

[PaulaFarrell]

32. agree

But they don't really reflect ordinary women's livea

[leftofcool]

28. Horsehit and clap trap!

Why not post this in the Bernie forum?

[PaulaFarrell]

33. because its nothing to do with him

I know that she made the statement in support of the other candidate, but this post is about the statement on its face. T

[Eleanors38]

29. The young women I talked to think Gloria is full of beans, even if they didn't know who she is.

[Avalux]

31. That's exactly what she's saying. Tragic to be her. n/t

[flamingdem]

36. Gloria was a Playboy Bunny right?

She got a big dose of the power of ones looks at a young age.

I don't suffer a similar background, or her spectacular bod, so losing some male attention as I age ain't such a biggie.

[leftyladyfrommo]

51. No. She was working on a story. nt

[malthaussen]

53. She still got the job.

It was an undercover story, so she had to play it straight. In pictures of her as a Bunny, she certainly fits in. Whether that experience informs her statement is speculative, but one would expect she soaked up a little of the zeitgeist of her time and place.

-- Mal

[treestar]

59. It was good because a defense to that chauvinistic dismissal of feminism

as bitter ugly women who couldn't attract men.

[leftyladyfrommo]

60. Gloria was always the pretty one.

Back in the 70's feminists were always portrayed as unattractive losers who just were bitter because they couldn't get a man.

Gloria was the one who openly defied that stereotype. She was really attractive. She was perfectly capable of "getting a man" and yet she continued to tear apart those stereotypes.

Probably the whole concept of "sexual allure" is about as non feminist as you can get. Sexual allure is just playing right into being manipulated by a completely male dominated system.

[malthaussen]

64. Precisely

Which makes her statement all the more imbecilic. As I point out elsewhere, she herself was already radical when she was young and hot, so how can she argue that "women" become more radical as they age? Unless you want to consider that she was patting herself on the back.

I remember a Doonesbury comic from 'way back when where Mark and Mike are watching Gloria on Dick Cavett. Mark is blown away by her poise, attitude, and argument, and says, "Wow, she really tells it like it ought to be! What do you think of her, Doones?" Mike answers "Nice legs."

-- Mal

[leftyladyfrommo]

65. Judging her for one bad sentence is really not fair. After 50 years of fighting for women's rights.

I was watching that and I think she just meant as a joke. And it went sideways. She can handle it. This is a woman who had to deal with death threats on a daily basis.

I think a lot of women do get more radical as they age. I know I have. I am way more free now. I really don't have to worry about what anyone thinks. I don't care what men think. If they like me, fine. If they don't, fine. And looking back it is painfully obvious how badly I fell for the role models that were the business models for women in the workplace at the time. I can't believe I actually fell for that shit. When did the freedom to be hot become feminism?

But, oddly, it is not the men I have trouble with. The older men that I know aren't very sexist. I have a lot more trouble with the younger women that I have run into in the work force. They have been absolutely awful to work for. Ambition run amok.

[malthaussen]

66. Might just be a generational thing.

As far as Gloria, I judge not her -- she's earned the right to say whatever damned idiot thing she wants to say -- but just call an idiotic statement idiotic. I've seen others argue that she was joking, and that's fine, too. But even Homer nods, and that's what I see as having happened.

But to expand on the trouble with younger women: that is a ripe field for speculation. If, as you call it, it shows "ambition run amok," then does that not contradict the idea of "women" becoming more radical as they age? Can it be that women of an earlier generation are more likely to become "more radical as they age," whereas the rising generation has benefitted from the years of struggle, and thus has the opportunity to begin where they elders had to fight to get? OTOH, could it not just be a perpetuation of the "traditional" stereotypes which make a woman irrelevant as she ages -- even to other women? But on the gripping hand, are males really exempt from this dismissal? Obviously, a gent who has made a pile, acquired all the goodies, and is on his third or fourth trophy wife doesn't have to deal with such scorn from the youngsters, but isn't the same true of a woman in the same position? But then, there are a lot fewer women in that position.

One data point is lacking in your anecdotal experience as cited, though, which would inform the question: older men aren't sexist, younger women are amok, but what about younger men?

-- Mal

[treestar]

70. when younger, back in the day

that she was talking about, it would be easier to fall into the trap of getting male approval, which of course, back then, women got more of when young. It's not imbecilic in that it was often thought back then. Feminism has been going on 40-50 years and things have changed for the better, but hadn't as much back when Gloria was in on the beginning of it.

[BlueJazz]

38. Don't believe that. Many older women turn me on. (Not that there's anything wrong with that)

[Holly_Hobby]

40. I'm nearly 60, and I have trouble keeping my mouth shut

After working my entire life, I lost my last job due to GWB's financial debacle and haven't been able to even get an interview. I'm angry that I'm invisible now that I'm older. No matter what my skills or experience is, I'm just too old to employ.

If people are unfortunate enough to ask me what I think, I tell them. I wouldn't have done that 30 years ago. Radical politically? I always was and still am. I will die a radical.

[Skittles]

42. a heart for you my sweet

us experienced gals need to stick together and you are my kind of gal

[Holly_Hobby]

48. Thank you!

[Skittles]

43. a common mistake younger guys make

[Leaseoption]

44. How so? Not in my experience

[Skittles]

46. exactly

[Leaseoption]

47. I understand your need not to engage in debate

I'm guessing you are of the older generation? Not that there's anything wrong with that....we all have our time.

[malthaussen]

54. Depends on how you define "power"

Experience and sophistication (to say nothing of appetite) constitute power, also. Trading on youth and looks constitutes a different kind.

-- Mal

[treestar]

58. In the male dominated society true and they get a lot of women to believe it

Men have more sexual power when younger too - literally and that is when they are also the most attractive. It's they who tell us we find them "distinguished" then and that we like the power shown by their money - too many women have gone along with that.

[Blaukraut]

62. I'd never thought of it like that, but you are correct. Thank you! n/t

[JPnoodleman]

45. I think Steinem's statement is a mere rationalization, she will contradict herself later on...

When old women are largely not complying with her political framework, another rationalization will be contrived.

In the end Steinem, for all her achievements, she and other Feminist activists have largely failed to create mass solidarity among all or even a majority of women across ages, classes and ethnicity/nationality. This lack of solidarity creates a difficult paradox of trying to represent and act for all women while simultaneously being not supported by even a majority of women in general, at least in the United States. Last I read 80+% do not identify as Feminist and even once I have read that pro-lifers are majority female.

Steinem is giving a plausible explanation for a current problem, her friend Hillary isn't rallying all women in Sisterhood and Solidarity because largely there is no Sisterhood of womankind or Solidarity of Women.

[gollygee]

49. I don't feel less powerful but I do feel more radical

Though I'm not quite 50 yet so not all that old.

[edbermac]

50. Everybody gets more radical as they age.

You just realize life is too short to put up with bullshit.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

52. Haves vs Have nots

The former wants to maintain the status quo, the latter wants change. The latter is rapidly growing.

[treestar]

55. When this was said in the 70s it probably meant something

Less so now. Now a lot of women have power other than sexual allure. But in the 60s/70s it was still a big factor.

[malthaussen]

63. I'm afraid she was projecting.

I'd be interested to know what, if anything, she was thinking when she came out with that. It is certainly possible that your interpretation is correct, and she was lamenting the loss of market value due to external characteristics. That would, then, imply that women become more bitter when their external sexual value declines, and only then do they become radical. But she was radical when she was young and hot, so how does that pertain? Even setting aside the fallacy of applying her own experience to that of the mass, she fails by not drawing properly on her own experience.

Or she could have meant something more complex, such as women in general become more radicalized (or bitter) when their life's experiences do not meet their expectations, which probably applies more to feminists than non-feminists. Although a woman who buys into the stereotypical trophy-wife ideal may become "radicalized" when her successful husband trades her in on a new model. A feminist who hoped to become chairman of GM, though, may feel a "loss of power" when she fails to achieve that goal, and thus become "radicalized" through that experience, whereas when she was younger and still hoped to succeed she may have been more in keeping with convention, insofar as convention extends to a woman with such an ambition in the first place. To apply this lesson to "all women," though, is dangerous, as it implies that everything she has worked for her whole life is a failure, since by that argument such "radicalization" is the typical experience, and feminists hoped to change that. Of course, if she perceives failure in her life's efforts, that too could serve to "radicalize" or "embitter" her also.

If we consider, per arguendo, that there are two paths for a young woman to embrace, or at least consider that that is the zeitgeist she soaked up when she was growing up, then "failure to succeed" may account for the radicalization she claims in both cases, because in both cases (that of the woman with "traditional" expectations of family, house, status; and that of the woman who hopes for success in career), failure can be rationalized as due to conditions beyond the control of the individual, namely age. But why the same could not be said of males is a mystery wrapt in an enigma.

Or she could have just been saying "Vote for my friend Hillary." And not thinking too much of the implications of consigning young women to irrelevance.

-- Mal

[PasadenaTrudy]

69. My therapist once told me

that once men stop looking at you, then it's time to do something ( re your appearance). Like, everything is tied up in how good you still look to the male gaze. I was in my 30s then, now I'm 52 and I'm sooo glad men don't notice me anymore. I'm much happier and have less anxiety. I don't like the idea of looks and power being intertwined. I'm rambling, sorry, bye