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MindMover

(5,016 posts)
Sun Jun 3, 2012, 02:42 PM Jun 2012

Syrian officer who witnessed Houla massacre Defects

A senior official from the Syrian Air Force has defected and sided with opposition forces, and claims he witnessed the Houla massacre first hand. The Guardian spoke to Major Jihad Raslan, who was on leave in his house 300 metres away from the small village of Taldous, one of the first areas assaulted in the Houla masacre, when “several hundred” men he knew to be Shabiha members, pro-regime militia, entered on motorbikes and army trucks:

“A lot of them were bald and many had beards,” he said. “Many wore white sports shoes and army pants. They were shouting: ‘Shabiha forever, for your eyes, Assad.’ It was very obvious who they were.

“We used to be told that armed groups killed people and the Free Syria Army burned down houses,” he said. “They lied to us. Now I saw what they did with my own eyes.”

“A lot of them were bald and many had beards,” he said. “Many wore white sports shoes and army pants. They were shouting: ‘Shabiha forever, for your eyes, Assad.’ It was very obvious who they were.

He said the killings in his area were over in around 15 minutes. However, the rampage in other parts of Houla continued until the early hours of Saturday, according to eye-witnesses and survivors.

http://www.yalibnan.com/2012/06/03/syrian-military-officer-who-witnessed-houla-massacre-defects/

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Syrian officer who witnessed Houla massacre Defects (Original Post) MindMover Jun 2012 OP
Be particularly skeptical of the statements made by defectors. leveymg Jun 2012 #1
Be particularly skeptical of the statements made by people who do not source their claims. tabatha Jun 2012 #2
We should all be skeptical of these claims, including you. leveymg Jun 2012 #3
Yea, they end up dead if they tell the truth..... MindMover Jun 2012 #13
Post removed Post removed Jun 2012 #4
I'll probably be the last to make a dime off this sort of propaganda operation. leveymg Jun 2012 #6
"Bought and paid for?" lol... Joe McCarthy, is that you? David__77 Jun 2012 #8
In looking at your posts, you seem to be more of a devils advocate... MindMover Jun 2012 #9
"Skirting that line?" I like that. I'm gonna have to start using that... David__77 Jun 2012 #10
"I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong." MindMover Jun 2012 #11
Opposing dictatorships that massacre dissidents geek tragedy Jun 2012 #19
this isn't from a neocon source cali Jun 2012 #5
It looks to have been in The Guardian via Atlantic Wire. leveymg Jun 2012 #7
bet you wanted gadhaffi to stay around, too. dionysus Jun 2012 #22
No. But, getting rid of Gadaffi was easy and didn't involve genocide and ethnic cleansing leveymg Jun 2012 #24
The Assadopologists are all over this news as well. geek tragedy Jun 2012 #12
Do you consider defectors to be a reliable source of intelligence at first glance? leveymg Jun 2012 #14
Who is backing off artillery shelling of a defenseless population... MindMover Jun 2012 #15
The artillery was aimed at the SLA, which is far from defenseless. Perhaps, the population needs leveymg Jun 2012 #20
Deflect, deflect the conversation to other states when the MindMover Jun 2012 #25
You can't have solutions in Syria w/out solving 3rd party intervention problems leveymg Jun 2012 #27
Yes, pro-Assad forced committing a massacre validates geek tragedy Jun 2012 #18
You are wrong. I am against the regime, but also opposed to the foreign intervention - al Qaeda leveymg Jun 2012 #21
A real problem with dictators is their control of information. How do you prove pampango Jun 2012 #16
That is why there are 300 observers on the ground in Syria..... MindMover Jun 2012 #17
Really? 300 people can see all trouble spots in a country about 10x the size of New Jersey? riderinthestorm Jun 2012 #23
The fighting is not in the desert..... MindMover Jun 2012 #26

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
1. Be particularly skeptical of the statements made by defectors.
Sun Jun 3, 2012, 02:49 PM
Jun 2012

That's the first rule of counter-intelligence, asylum officers, and good journalists. Also, cross-check the sources. The emergence of this Shabiha meme popping up so long after the fact doesn't smell right - it could be true, but it could be more disinformation.

People on this board have to be wary of the sources and intent behind these atrocity stories, particularly those posted at foreign and neocon web sites sourced solely from opposition sources

tabatha

(18,795 posts)
2. Be particularly skeptical of the statements made by people who do not source their claims.
Sun Jun 3, 2012, 02:51 PM
Jun 2012

Unfortunately, his statements back up what some of the witnesses said.

Next thing you'll be saying that people who survived the massacre are not to be believed.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
3. We should all be skeptical of these claims, including you.
Sun Jun 3, 2012, 02:54 PM
Jun 2012

They contradict other eyewitness interviews that state that many of the victims were gov't supporters with houses near the police station. The truth will out, and the only thing we can assume is that a lot of people have a huge motive to lie about what actually happened.

Response to leveymg (Reply #1)

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
6. I'll probably be the last to make a dime off this sort of propaganda operation.
Sun Jun 3, 2012, 03:05 PM
Jun 2012

I have no military discipline, and I hate propaganda of all types and stripes and flags.

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
9. In looking at your posts, you seem to be more of a devils advocate...
Sun Jun 3, 2012, 05:01 PM
Jun 2012

then an apologist.....but you are skirting that line....

David__77

(23,423 posts)
10. "Skirting that line?" I like that. I'm gonna have to start using that...
Sun Jun 3, 2012, 05:08 PM
Jun 2012

I favor critical thinking. It's good to reassess one's axiomatic assumptions periodically...

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
11. "I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong."
Sun Jun 3, 2012, 05:14 PM
Jun 2012

I sincerely hope that you follow the principles of your avatar and unite with the right people and not the wrong people.....

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
19. Opposing dictatorships that massacre dissidents
Sun Jun 3, 2012, 08:01 PM
Jun 2012

is one that withstands scrutiny. Highly recommend giving it a second look.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
7. It looks to have been in The Guardian via Atlantic Wire.
Sun Jun 3, 2012, 03:09 PM
Jun 2012

Last edited Sun Jun 3, 2012, 06:27 PM - Edit history (5)

Too bad, the Guardian used to be a great newspaper before it was taken over by the neocons. Atlantic has also become a neocon mouthpiece.

But, that doesn't make this story untrue. My first reaction when I heard about the massacres was, also, this was largely the work of pro-regime Shi'ia militias, which is further evidence that this has become a full-scale religious war. I'm merely saying, now, I would hold off on promoting that as fact until there is better confirmation from other sources, which may never come or may show up on the screen in the next five minutes.

On edit: I wanted to add this about the Guardian's neocon line and general support for more active intervention in Syria and Iran by the US and NATO. About The Atlantic, in this regard, nothing need be said. For years, I respected and relied upon The Guardian for progressive international coverage. I began to detect something was wrong in 2007 when that paper championed a hard-line confrontation with Iran over the capture and short-term detention of a Royal Navy boarding party in the Shaat-al-Arab, that turned out to be a transparent provocation of Iran's al-Quuds naval units in that area in the period after the Israeli bombing in Lebanon and leading up to Operation Cast Lead in Gaza.

In March, this is what a Guardian columnist had to say about the summit between Obama and Cameron in Washington, and the Iraq and Afghanistan disengagement agenda they discussed. Read between the lines, and there is more than a streak of neocon pining for a more militant stance in Washington. It's a classic case of an ironically titled headline, in this opinion piece by Martin Kettle, entitled, "Cameron and Obama ended the neocon era. But the era of Assad goes on: David Cameron and Barack Obama buried the neocons in Washington. But the west will pay a price for the quiet life" http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/14/cameron-obama-ended-neocon-era


"People get weary," said Obama, in a moment of frankness. The pullout (from Afghanistan) will happen because the voters have lost the will to fight.

The similar surface noise over Iran and Syria also conceals a deeper current, a long withdrawing roar of disengagement. Cameron and Obama dwelt less on Iran and Syria than they did on Afghanistan. That's partly because there is less they can do there, even the Americans, certainly the British. The Washington Post joint article emphasised that there is time and space to pursue a diplomatic solution in Iran, buttressed by stronger sanctions. There is not an iota of ambiguity in the toughness of the language, but the unspoken reality is that Obama would do almost anything to avoid getting trapped into a military strike against Iran. That doesn't mean that it won't happen. But it does mean that he thinks, rightly, that it would be a mark of failure if it did.

In Syria the limits of engagement are even more stark. At the White House press conference, Obama spoke about aid to the opposition, about pressure on the regime, about mobilising the nations and tightening the sanctions. Cameron threatened the Assad dynasty with the international criminal court. It all sounds like action, and it is all useful incremental stuff. But it is action at a distance, with strict limits. It is not intervention, because the international order has a collective interest in inaction and because the costs – not least the political costs at home – are deemed too high.

All this is, in very large part, the politics of where we are now. Faced with all three of these grim situations at once – a decade-long losing struggle against a feudal patriarchal narco-state, the threat of nuclear weapons in the hands of a paranoid revolutionary theocracy, and the readiness of a corrupt Arab socialist autocrat to kill his own people for the sake of the revolution – it is hardly surprising that Obama and Cameron hold back. Who's to blame them for doing so? The historic failure in Iraq leaves them little choice. But so does the fragility of the global economy. Even if the US and the UK were faced with only one of the three problems, Iraq and the recession would make them think twice.

A large part of all of us breathes a huge sigh of relief at this. The post-George Bush era finally beckons. Withdrawal from Afghanistan means no more pointless deaths of young soldiers, no more massacres, insults and acts of desecration against Afghans – at least by Americans. Western nations think in instant gratification terms and short timescales and this has all gone on too long. The west has had enough of fear and shame and hard times, of making enemies out of strangers and realising that getting people to change their ways is harder than it first seemed. People get weary, just like Obama said.

Another part of us, though, ought to reflect on what is being lost by this overwhelming collective disengagement. The disengagement is happening because the mistakes – crimes if you prefer – of the past have created a collective war-weariness that has now become a collective war-wariness. It is natural to want the conflict to end.

Who wouldn't? It's not wrong to want a quiet life, but how right is it when it comes at a price that someone else will inevitably have to pay? That wasn't acceptable to earlier generations who scorned non-intervention in Spain or Abyssinia. Obama and Cameron closed the door on the George Bush era on Wednesday, to the general relief of the world. But the era of Mullah Omar, Ayatollah Khamenei and Bashar al-Assad goes on, posing questions that will one day have to be answered.


Unfortunately, Mr. Kettle, the neocon era is not over. It just continues as such by moving to new targets.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
24. No. But, getting rid of Gadaffi was easy and didn't involve genocide and ethnic cleansing
Mon Jun 4, 2012, 10:26 AM
Jun 2012

The difference is that the Syrian civil war is essentially a sectarian religious war between a minority Shi'ia regime (the Alawites) that are predominant in cities along the north-western coast, and the Sunni majority that surrounds it within Syria, which -- like Iraq-- is essentially another line drawn in the sand after World War One at the British Foreign Office in London.

The present killing is a continuation after a long break of the last round of fighting in the 1980s, with hundreds of thousands of casualties on both sides, won by the Ba'ath Party regime led by Assad's father, who was a considerably more capable man.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
12. The Assadopologists are all over this news as well.
Sun Jun 3, 2012, 05:16 PM
Jun 2012

They must view it as particularly incriminating for their champion.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
14. Do you consider defectors to be a reliable source of intelligence at first glance?
Sun Jun 3, 2012, 06:33 PM
Jun 2012

You really shouldn't. Why is this narrative just emerging now, days after the killings were first blamed on gov't troops, but everyone had to back off from that conclusion?

It may well be that most of the civilian casualties are the result of Shi'ia militias - if that's true, that confirms what some of us have been saying all along. We've gotten ourselves into the middle of a religious sectarian war. Ask yourself: Do you want to go further into this, in Syria, with all of its significance for both sides of the Islamic divide? Do you like forever wars? Twilight wars fought forever? Don't we, as Americans, have enough problems without that?

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
15. Who is backing off artillery shelling of a defenseless population...
Sun Jun 3, 2012, 07:36 PM
Jun 2012

and wholesale slaughter/murder of innocents, Pas moi, monsieur

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
20. The artillery was aimed at the SLA, which is far from defenseless. Perhaps, the population needs
Mon Jun 4, 2012, 08:44 AM
Jun 2012

protection from the SLA? Most of the killings appear to have been the work of militias. Who's responsible for that? Not so easy to answer that question.

The only thing that can be said with certainty is that as foreign intervention intensifies, the situation becomes more chaotic and bloody. The greatest influence we can have is cutting off the flow of arms, money, and fighters - that means, essentially, we have to finally finish the job of wiping out al Qaeda, which is carrying out most of the terrorist bombings (that people seem to have momentarily forgotten) by going to its source: Saudi Arabia, and the Gulf States.

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
25. Deflect, deflect the conversation to other states when the
Mon Jun 4, 2012, 01:51 PM
Jun 2012

culpability is with Assad and his regime....I find your posts to be sophomoric debate...

Foreign intervention has been to supply the regime with further weapons and ammo from allies of Assad and words of horror from others...

You mention aQ like they are still a viable force in the region....BS....and nobody of substance has momentarily forgotten them...they better keep there heads inside their caves.....



leveymg

(36,418 posts)
27. You can't have solutions in Syria w/out solving 3rd party intervention problems
Mon Jun 4, 2012, 03:36 PM
Jun 2012

It's not a deflection. Don't worry about culpability for Assad, he'll get it. But, the others who've fueled this fire also have committed human rights violations, and must be held equally accountable for each death they are responsible for, as well.

BTW: AQ is still very much alive and active outside of caves - at least, that part of it that continues to operate internationally under the protection of the Saudi regime.

You need to offer more of substance to the debate, and be less personally confrontational.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
18. Yes, pro-Assad forced committing a massacre validates
Sun Jun 3, 2012, 07:58 PM
Jun 2012

your steadfast support and excuses for his regime. :rollseyes:

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
21. You are wrong. I am against the regime, but also opposed to the foreign intervention - al Qaeda
Mon Jun 4, 2012, 09:05 AM
Jun 2012

Assad is an idiot, and I have no doubt that he will eventually be overthrown. But, there are far more ruthless parties now in the mix, including Jihadists supported by Saudi Arabia. These foreign fighters are, in two words, al-Qaeda terrorists, and we are still in a de facto state of war with them.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
16. A real problem with dictators is their control of information. How do you prove
Sun Jun 3, 2012, 07:49 PM
Jun 2012

that pro-government forces committed a massacre when only the government can conduct an inquiry? That is true whether the government is in Syria or Guatemala, Zimbabwe or North Korea.

If you don't want to listen to or believe witnesses or defectors, you either believe the government's version or you throw your hands up and don't know whom to believe (which is probably a win for any government since this may limit international damage to the regime).

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
23. Really? 300 people can see all trouble spots in a country about 10x the size of New Jersey?
Mon Jun 4, 2012, 10:00 AM
Jun 2012

Or they can recognize false flag operations even if they occurred right in front of their very eyes?

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