I can understand going to North Korea for shits and giggles

[jberryhill]

But if you do that, you have to understand that, just like Disney World, it is a magic kingdom of illusion ruled by an exploitative and despotic rodent. You smile and nod, bow at whatever wants bowing at, look concerned and serious at appropriate times, don't ask difficult questions of your minders, act like you believe whatever they tell you, and save the shits and giggles until you are out of the country. You don't stand by the parade telling kids on Main Street, "It's just a guy in a mouse suit".

It's really not difficult to understand. And if you establish trust with the minders that you aren't going to cause any problems for them, then they will loosen up a little bit on a person-to-person level. Just don't talk politics.

Yes, their entire society is premised on bullshit. But I think anyone with the wherewithal to travel to China in order to then travel to Pyongyang should be somewhat informed about what they are getting into, or at least bone up on the subject of fundamental do's and dont's if they want to carve that notch on the "fucking weird places I've seen" bedpost.

They even have a bike tour that seems like it would be a hoot:

http://uritours.com/tours/north-korea-bike-tour

I would like to know how on earth it is possible for a college-educated person who has made a conscious decision and substantial investment in travel expenses to think it would be - in any conceivable reality - a neat idea to try to steal a propaganda banner?

Granted, that is what is merely alleged. But as was explained to me while being cited for "driving too fast for conditions" on a snowy turnpike one time, when I asked the officer the basis for his belief I had been in fact driving too fast for conditions - "You see that road up there? You see the cars up there driving on it? You are the only son of a bitch who slid off of it into this ditch."

A report on CNN suggested, on the basis of similar convictions, that he's going to be working on a farm and planting and sowing vegetables for as long as they decide to keep him. Fifteen years is clearly excessive - utterly and absolutely. But if the privileged circumstances of his upbringing, admission to a highly respected school, and apparent financial means were insufficient to provide him with an atmosphere in which he could develop any sense of good judgment - in circumstances entirely of his own choosing and volition - then a couple of months of digging potatoes might do him some good.

Visiting North Korea strikes me as one of those "don't laugh" contests, in which someone does outrageous things designed to make you laugh. If you think you might laugh, then it's probably not a good idea to attempt a visit to North Korea.

Next up: Let's pretend we're Muslim, go to Mecca during Hajj, and get a selfie next to the Kaaba making an obscene gesture.

[Scootaloo]

1. Afraid I have to agree

When you travel to another nation, you are entering an agreement to obey their laws and norms for the duration of your stay. Even if those laws and norms are fucking psycho. You agree that if you violate those laws, you may face theri criminal justice system, which may also be fucking psycho.

[jberryhill]

3. Yep

China is spooky enough, and it's infinitely more open.

There's this really bizarre feature of the Beijing subway system. The automated ticket machines operate just like a lot of farecard machines elsewhere - you punch in your destination, it shows the fare, you pay, and get your ticket. The weird thing is that there's only one fare for any trip in the system, and its the same fare for every destination. There's really no point in selecting a destination, since it's going to be the same fare.

Maybe it's designed to accommodate possible future fare changes, but it made me curious. Since the fare was the same, what would happen if I punched in a destination, got the card, but then got off at another destination? But following on the heels of that curiosity, I thought "Fuck if I want to find out."

Hey, do you REALLY think they'd arrest you for badmouthing the king in Thailand? Go find out for us.

[oneshooter]

17. And if you enter with out a Visa or Passport

What then?

[Baobab]

26. People shouldn't give their money to a genocidal regime

Period.

Also, North Korea is no more of a joke than America is. It may seem funny but its not a joke when real people's lives are being wasted in such quantity, is it?

The deaths they die for no reason.

Somebody might be able to take a tour now and visit recently opened up Hoeryong where they have Food Street, which is reputed to have delicious produce. But until just a few years ago, that produce was grown by slave laborers right over the next mountain who would be executed if they took even a single apple. In order to make the area ready for tourism, perhaps 10,000 people likely were intentionally starved to death.

See the problem?

[DetlefK]

30. Then you are obviously a spy and get 20 years of jail. Duh.

[lagomorph777]

29. Yeah, I thought "Why would anybody even go there who doesn't HAVE to?"

[Kalidurga]

2. Guess, the but in my country argument didn't work huh.

Weird I would be okay with all that. Wandering into a place like that and just smile and nod. It would be just like being home for the holidays.

[jberryhill]

4. "like being home for the holidays"

You have my condolences.

Like I asked my sons when they were young, "How is it you cuss like sailors with me, when I know your mom doesn't tolerate that. Do you ever slip up?" and one of them said, "No, we have a little switch between our brains and our mouths, and we just turn it off when we're at mom's house."

There are enough documentaries that give anyone a good idea what to expect, but some of the travel there has turned into a one-upmanship contest of "Hey, looky what I managed to film when the guides thought my camera was off" sort of stuff. It's like kids trying to outdo each other in stupid-stunt YouTube videos.

[Paka]

5. I'm a lifelong committed traveler...

and you don't go to countries for "shits & giggles." I learned during my first trip abroad, "Do in Rome...." and you know the rest of it I believe. If you can't accept the restrictions, don't travel there.

[Bad Dog]

6. When you go somewhere like that you need to keep your nose clean.

N Korea is an extreme example, but people have got into all sorts of scrapes in Dubai, Thailand, Malaysia and a host of other countries. You need to read up before you go anywhere.

Get caught with a packet of these in Dubai and you could go to prison.

[Jim Lane]

7. Quite tangent to the OP, but why are those crackers illegal in Dubai? (n/t)

[hobbit709]

8. see the word "poppy"?

[Jim Lane]

13. What's the issue -- the connection to drugs, or some prohibition in Islamic dietary law? (n/t)

[hobbit709]

14. Poppy seeds are a no no because of the link to opium, etc.

[Bad Dog]

27. Poppy seeds.

They can be used to cultivate heroin. It doesn't matter what variety of poppy or if they're baked in a cracker, they're illegal.

[awoke_in_2003]

39. North Korea and Muslim countries

are on my no travel list.

[Bad Dog]

41. Depends on the country.

I had a good time in Senegal and I really want to go to Morocco.

[awoke_in_2003]

42. The atheist in me

makes me skittish about being surrounded by people who would consider me an apostate

[Bad Dog]

46. It can't be much fun living in America then.

Most Moslems aren't nutters, they're quite normal. Don't let the doom merchants freak you out.

[awoke_in_2003]

47. Yeah, Texas is great fun

If xtian fundies had their way I have no doubt what they would do to people like me. Madalyn Murray O'Hair was killed in our most progressive city- Austin.

[Bad Dog]

48. It's not a problem here.

I live in the least religious country in the World. We do get the odd gobby Atheist, who are just as bad as the religious types, but that's about it.

[snooper2]

9. It would be easier to go to Siberia and get banners, North Korean Logging camps in Russia

Skip to 3:00 to see what I'm talking about-

Or, watch all the segments on VICE Youtube

[Baobab]

35. Those logging camps are basically for members of the "core" elite caste

They are a coveted overseas job - NOT comparable to a North Korean prison or concentration camp.

If you want to know what a North Korean political prisoners camp is like I suggest you watch the videos I just linked to or go to a web site like Rimjingang the first- or some of the other URLs listed below

http://www.asiapress.org/rimjingang/english/index.html (Rimjingang - Journalism by North Koreans living there risking their lives to write about it while still there - really interesting)

Some of the links below are old and the content may have moved - they may require some searching, but do it, highly recommended

http://nkwatch.org

http://nofence.netlive.ne.jp/english/testimony.html

http://en.nknet.org/

http://www.northkoreanrefugees.com

http://north-korea.narod.ru/control_lankov.htm

http://north-korea.narod.ru/propaganda_lankov.htm

http://eng.nkgulag.org/bbs/board.php?bo_table=b_01&wr_id=10

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/CoIDPRK/Pages/ReportoftheCommissionofInquiryDPRK.aspx

http://www.hrnk.org/publications/hrnk-publications.php

http://www.eahrnk.org/

http://monthly.chosun.com/client/dataroom/databoardread.asp?idx=12&cPage=2&table=dataroom

http://www.aidanfc.net/a_year_in_pyongyang_p.html

http://hrnk.trycomp.net/

http://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/collection/116/north-korea-august-1956-plenum-incident

http://monthly.chosun.com/client/dataroom/databoardread.asp?idx=5

[Proud Liberal Dem]

10. Why would ANYBODY voluntarily go to N. Korea for ANY reason?

Last edited Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:14 AM - Edit history (1)

I don't get it. *smh*

[Baobab]

28. People can 'go to North Korea' by watching these videos

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/CoIDPRK/Pages/CommissionInquiryonHRinDPRK.aspx

There you will find links to testimony- there are a great many videos which contain testimony of North Korean defectors. This is the real North Korea. Not the theme park version.

Or to just see the videos, go to http://webtv.un.org and type dprk + (any one - just one of Seoul, Tokyo, London or Washington) into the search window.

The hearings were all in the summer and fall of 2013. The videos all have English translations in real time available (the UN is good for that) most are in Korean with English translation with some Japanese spoken in the Tokyo ones.

[B2G]

11. You are assuming he actually tried to steal it.

North Korea has a long history of detaining Westerners to suit their purposes.

And I don't think you quite grasp what 'hard labor' in that country entails.

[jberryhill]

19. That's odd

Because I said "Granted, that is what is merely alleged".

As far as what a prized western captive does, I defer to the expert that CNN had on who surmised it would be vegetable farming.

[B2G]

21. Your entire OP seems to be giving NK the benefit of the doubt,

not him.

But that's just what I took from your post.

[jberryhill]

23. Was he there by accident?

Did he get on the wrong bus on his way to class one morning?

I have no idea what he did. I'm pretty sure how he got there.

[B2G]

24. I am not disputing that he was there.

Further, I don't think it was a wise choice to go.

What I am questioning is the validity of the charges against him. Your references to his 'privileged upbringing' and the fact that hard labor in a NK prison might do him some good, strikes me as extremely callous and an assumption of guilt. That is what I take issue with.

I think I've made my position clear and will now leave the thread.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

38. agreed

[shanti]

49. in the story i read

he got caught by CCTV in a restricted part of the hotel he had been staying in. a friend of his asked him to cadge one for her, and stupidly, he did.

[B2G]

50. , said the North Koreans. Nt

[shanti]

53. there IS a photo n/t

[B2G]

54. Where?

I have only read the statement. TIA.

[shanti]

55. here (link)

http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/north-korea-releases-footage-of-captive-otto-warmbiers-crime-against-the-state-w167547

not the only source, for sure.

[B2G]

56. Thank you

While it's hard to tell if that's actually him, how stupid can you get.

[randome]

12. I just started reading "The Orphan Master's Son" by Adam Johnson.

It's about North Korea and it's disturbing. The novel won the 2013 Pulitzer. Wow. What an eye-opener.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[Tommy_Carcetti]

15. "(A) magic kingdom of illusion ruled by an exploitative and despotic rodent"

A very funny hyperbole, but you have no idea how much there's a miniscule element of truth to that.

Disney does run its company and its workers like an authoritarian dictatorship with a sense of cult of personality. It's freakish.

[jberryhill]

22. And rides!

[ryan_cats]

16. Not to worry

Not to worry. I'm sure his teacher assured him it was a worker's paradise.

[leftyladyfrommo]

18. I read somewhere that it was a dare

By some elite social group at the University and something about getting a 10,000 car if he would steal the banner. But everyone at the school and the elite society deny ever even knowing about all this. Deny that he was even trying to join.

Poor kid. Who knows what the truth is. It's really hard to believe he would do something that dumb. But it's hard for me to believe any ordinary US citizen would even consider going to N Korea in the first place. Kids don't always really comprehend how dangerous things are.

[jberryhill]

20. "hard for me to believe any ordinary US citizen would even consider"

Not even for the music?

[leftyladyfrommo]

25. Boy, that was wonderful.

But it's not worth 15 years of hard labor.

I hate accordions so I am not a good judge.

[immoderate]

32. Cowbell?

It's missing.

--imm

[oldandhappy]

33. Helicopter parents have always fixed things.

[oldandhappy]

31. Every time this happens

I wonder what on earth possesses people to go there. Hello out there. We know this will happen. I wish State Dept would simply put a stop to all Americans traveling to North Korea. And advertise that there will be no extraction attempts. We work hard to retrieve our people and then they come home to interviews and hero treatment when really they were just inconsiderate and thoughtless and a long way from wise.

[jberryhill]

34. "put a stop to all Americans traveling to North Korea"

And how would they do that?

Our government is generally not in the business of telling people where they can and cannot go.

[liberaltrucker]

57. Cuba would like a word. nt

[leftyladyfrommo]

45. I wish they would, too.

Here the govt is putting more sanctions on November Korea over their nuclear tests and blatant threats and here is this kid caught right in the middle messing up the works.

Regular US citizens don't have any business over there or in the other hotshots where they get kidnapped or killed.

[Nye Bevan]

37. Any talk of Dennis Rodman intervening? (nt)

[Rex]

40. You would have to be out of your mind to want to go to NK for shits and giggles.

Or just incredibly stupid about world events.

[msanthrope]

43. Do you want to know how many times I've sat across from this type of client

And pondered on the fact that money doesn't buy brains?

[LeftishBrit]

44. I would never advise anyone to go to North Korea at all at present

It's bad enough for the people who were born there, and have no choice.

[dembotoz]

51. ultimate balls out answer to where ya going for vacation

friend of mine is going to moscow in sept
she has been to other out of the box places
i think she is nuts but its her money

[JonathanRackham]

52. Best viewed from Google Earth.