PLEASE PLEASE support the US IVORY BAN. The IVORY TRADE MUST STOP!

[Flaxbee]

Sometimes I feel like I am about to lose my mind with despair over what is happening to elephants (and rhinos, and...).

The ivory trade MUST STOP. Yes, Asia/China are the largest market, but the US is the SECOND LARGEST MARKET FOR IVORY. THIS MUST STOP. If the US ban isn't finalized soon, it will be up to the next administration. Even if the next administration is Clinton or Sanders, it would be very bad if the ban lapses in the meantime.

From the Wildlife Conservation Society:

https://secure3.convio.net/wcs/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=866&s_src=CAMP_Rule-4D-OMB-Alert&s_subsrc=Rule-4D-OMB-Alert

Elephants are vanishing from the wild at an alarming rate. The reason? Their ivory tusks are worth their weight in gold in markets all over the world... including the U.S.

That's right – the United States has one of the largest markets for ivory in the world. But we can help put an end to the senseless slaughter by shutting down U.S. ivory markets.

We're on our way. After a hard-fought campaign, a U.S. ivory ban is in the works, but we've hit a roadblock. The Office of Management and Budget (OMB) must work quickly or we'll lose our chance to enact the ban – and elephant ivory will continue to be bought and sold in the U.S. without consequence. Urge the OMB to finalize the U.S. ivory ban as quickly as possible – elephants don't have time to lose.

[KamaAina]

1. What on Earth do you have against pianos?

[roguevalley]

2. if that wasn't you, KamaAina, I would plotz. :D I signed! I love elephants!

[KamaAina]

4. How on Earth does someone named 'roguevalley' know what 'plotz' is?

As for myself, I lived in and around NYC for several years before moving out to Hawai'i right after Selection 2000.

[roguevalley]

6. my sweet great grandma Minerva Schlegelmilch. LOL! I love words. HAWAII! The place God goes to

surf. I love it. Haven't been there in ages. Must. Go. Have a great day. Mahalo.

[Igel]

3. Nope.

I have musical instruments, some old, with ivory in them. Don't know if it's African or not. Can't tell.

Now, I haven't bought any since mid 2014, but that doesn't mean I won't want to sell them or buy another. I imagine many *professionals* are in the same situation. "I have a $10k instrument, but damn, if I sell it then in the absence of a CITES certificate the buyer can't legally leave the country, and perhaps not the state. So my $10k instrument is now an amateur instrument."

I'm the same bind with my nice Brazilian rosewood mandolin, and a guitar I have that has some Brazilian rosewood that was imported to the US long ago. They do not not and probably cannot have a CITES certificate because there's no way to confirm that the wood was imported long ago.

You see, protecting individual rights here would make enforcement a bear, and in some cases enforcement. Enforcement is more important that individual rights. Closing down the demand is all well and good, but the ultimate demand for the money is from poachers. Make poaching a losing proposition, make it unnecessary, and there you have it. Esp. since most of the ivory goes not to make bow tips or nuts and bridges or purfling or even bassoon bits and key laminates but to China. We beat the bushes to make sure that even the smallest infraction is punished in one place because we can't get the big boys elsewhere, and we NEED TO DO SOMETHING!!!! Or, as I usually put it, "!!!WE!!! need to do something." Need to put the emphasis where it is.

[KamaAina]

7. Can't they carbon-date the rosewood?

[Dr Hobbitstein]

14. So just take a chuck out of the mandolin to carbon date it?

Sure, that won't effect the sound or resell value.

[Flaxbee]

8. For god's sake, there is a way to grandfather existing ivory from a certain period.

Fuck you for even thinking about buying an instrument without finding out if it's African ivory. Any demand, anywhere in the world, is too great.

Yes, I realize a lot of it goes to China for trinkets. But I do imagine there is a way to make new instruments, musical or otherwise, without using ivory. Ivory should be off-limits, forever, period. Unless you can create a body that certifies it is naturally harvested from elephants that died from natural, non-man-made, causes.

The US is the SECOND LARGEST MARKET. We are also the "big boys". The NRA is insane enough to equate an ivory ban with violating the 2nd Amendment. Sounds like you're making the same argument about musical instruments.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

12. New instruments DON'T use ivory.

Old ones do, which is what the poster was saying before you greeted them with a "fuck you". I have a piano from the 1950s. The key tops are ivory. I don't know where the ivory came from, and the piano has no CITES certification. My 1932 Martin archtop has an ivory nut and a Brazilian rosewood fretboard. It also does not have CITES certification.

An ivory ban would prevent me from reselling either of these instruments without costly modifications (which would hurt their value greatly).

Musical instruments in the US haven't used ivory since the 1960s.

[dumbcat]

15. And old classic knives and grips

for handguns do. I like my ivory grips. I have an old, classic Persian damascus bladed dagger that was given to me by my grandfather. It is worth thousands, but I have no paperwork on it to show where the ivory came from. So if my son or grandson decide to pass it along to another collector some day they should be prohibited from doing so? Or take a big hit on the value. Nope. Fuck that. Elephants will probably be around longer than people.

[Flaxbee]

24. OK, fine.

That makes sense. The poster I replied to didn't make it all that clear (to me).

I don't have a problem at all with old, grandfathered ivory. It's what was used before this wholesale slaughter began. There HAS to be a way to check it, though, and if there is any doubt, the instrument should not be bought. That's what the FU was for. Don't buy it if you can't verify.

[dumbcat]

29. But HOW are you going to check it?

How are you going to know the date and place of origin of a knife handle? If there is no paperwork with it (as is mostly the case)?

As for "...if there is any doubt, the instrument should not be bought." Fuck that. How about, "unless you can prove it is contraband" it can be transferred?

And FU for saying FU.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

31. The music shop I work for is in possession of ivory key tops from the 1960s.

A bunch of them, in fact. They've been in possession of these since the 1960s. There is no longer any documentation surrounding these key tops. Occasionally, we get an old piano in with ivory keys that are missing a few tops. We replace them, if the piano is in good enough shape otherwise to warrant such.

Under the proposed ban, we have broken the law. I can not support that.

Also, is there a distinction for mammoth ivory? Mammoths are LONG extinct, and I purchase mammoth ivory for nuts on a few higher end guitars that I work on. It's still ivory.

[Flaxbee]

36. Is the transferability and profit from an item more important than survival of an entire

species? Is that what you think? If so, that's appalling. Personal property rights trump the life of every last remaining elephant on this planet? You're OK that one is killed almost every 15 minutes, just so you can sell something and preserve a market? That's appalling.

Stop the sales of ivory in its entirety, unless you can verify that it was part of a piece made before 2000. We tend to be a resourceful species, I'm sure there is a way to figure it out.

Perhaps create a registry for items with ivory. If it's so damn important that you be able to make a profit, then you should be willing to register your item. Anything registered as purchased after June 1 2016 cannot be sold. Keep your receipts. You do it for a tax refund from the IRS, so do it to save the species. It really isn't that hard.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

17. Does your mandolin or guitar have a serial number?

If it does, you may be able to estimate the date and place it was built. If the ban was in place at that time, then the wood MIGHT be illegal.

Is there a statute of limitations on these imports?

[Dr Hobbitstein]

32. My '32 Martin had a serial number.

But it had a couple neck resets done at various points in it's life, and the serial number is no longer legible due to one of those resets being of poor quality. I know it's a '32 because of it's design (only made a couple of years in the early 30s), but without a serial number, there is nothing verifiable about it (or about anything done to it aftermarket, which is common for aftermarket mods to be done to guitars).

[MoonRiver]

5. Absolutely!

This trade is a monstrous abomination! Elephants are infinitely more precious and important than trinkets!

[oldandhappy]

9. have supported a ban on ivory for years

Elephants are wonderful creatures -- very caring. We can learn from them.

[geardaddy]

10. Signed.

I do have ivory turnings on my bagpipes, but I bought those in 1979 and won't be buying any new ivory. In fact, I haven't bought any ivory since 1979.

I fully support this ban.

[Hiraeth]

11. Signed. K&R

[catbyte]

16. +1000

[Flaxbee]

26. I heard on the BBC the other night about poachers tracking elephants with

helicopters, doing the aerial hunting thing like they do with wolves. I feel so much rage and despair it's almost unbearable.

Maybe they should arm the rangers with shoulder mounted rocket launchers, too.

The poachers aren't the real problem, though - the market is. Thought I cannot fathom how any human being could do what poachers do ... However, if all poachers are eliminated on-sight, perhaps there would be fewer poachers. I hate guns, find them physically revolting. But I would not hesitate a second to protect an elephant, or a rhino or ...

[oneshooter]

35. A big part of the problem is y hat many of the poachers

work for goverment officials.
I worked in Kenya as a Game Officer back in the late 80's. My job was to track down poachers and arrest them. To do this job I had three Zulu trackers and three Massi trackers. In six months we captured 40 "suspects". Most spent less than 6 months in jail.
However, some 84 fought back. I personally dispached 9 of them. The others had a nasty run in with a Zulu Arabia or a Nassau lion spear. To bad.
I was a fired after seven months. A white Game Officer killing black poachers was just not right.
I was too good,, and was getting too close.

Does the ban include wharthog ivory? It does not yellow with age and makes wonderfully bright front site bead.

[Heeeeers Johnny]

18. Can one still buy elephant foot umberella stands, or is that a no go too?

[Flaxbee]

25. very funny. so witty.

It isn't a joke. It really isn't.

And you can't buy rhino horn, either, to get hard.

[Omaha Steve]

19. Marta & I signed

K&R!

[sinkingfeeling]

20. Signed. n/t

[TIME TO PANIC]

21. Signed! n/t

[ailsagirl]

22. SIGNED n/t

[Duppers]

23. Signed and donated.

[Arugula Latte]

27. Signed.

Thanks, Flaxbee.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

28. Ivory? What sort of perverse leader allows trade in ivory, rhino horn, giant clam-shells, etc...

giant clams in the South China Sea...

[Uben]

30. So, I found this "thing".....

....in my dad's garage after he died. It looked like ivory. He bought it at a garage sale back in the seventies from a truck driver who used it to check his tires. After some research, I found it was not ivory. It was mineralized bone! To be more specific, it was a 21" penis bone from a now extinct giant walrus! The inuits call it an oosik, and they are used to make carvings, knife handles and other things. Eskimos used them to whack baby seals, and I can see why....they are very dense and heavy. Its illegal to take them out of Alaska now unless they have been carved.

Talk about a conversation piece!

[kwassa]

33. I will never use Ivory soap again.

[HuckleB]

37. K and R!