Why are we seeing polling places closed as "cost saving measures"? If we can't afford ...

[Scuba]

... to educate our children, to heal our sick, to care for our elderly or fair elections, then just what the fuck is it the defense budget is defending???

[Sherman A1]

1. Precisely

just is our defense budget defending?

Hit the nail on the head.

[astrophuss42]

2. I'm wondering this myself

[Katashi_itto]

3. Stupid People. The defense budget defends and supports the 1%. We are incidental.

Like the voting system.

[jehop61]

4. Expense of polling venues

is borne by the state. Amazingly, states that close polls due to expense are red ones.

[Revanchist]

5. I wouldn't consider Rhode Island a red state

But they have been in financial trouble for years.

[1StrongBlackMan]

6. Counties have defense budgets?

[Scuba]

8. Please explain why fed dollars can't be used to help counties staff their polling places?

[1StrongBlackMan]

9. Federalism. But that said, the congress can make it so ...

they just don't seem inclined to do much of anything.

[Scuba]

10. Gosh, that means ...

... we need a political revolution!!

[1StrongBlackMan]

16. Yeah ... And, perhaps, more civics classes.

[Scuba]

17. Please explain your "civics classes" comment. Federal grants to counties are commonplace.

[1StrongBlackMan]

18. So ... No revolution?

[Glassunion]

51. DAMNIT!!! No revolution?

Why did I waste all that time sharpening my ice skates?

[NurseJackie]

21. Thank you! I'm glad you pointed this out.

[1StrongBlackMan]

24. DU can be so educational!

[Scuba]

34. While conveniently overlooking the common concept of federal grants to counties.

Some "pointing out" that is.

[1StrongBlackMan]

36. There are federal grants to support the operations of county level voting?

[Scuba]

38. Why not? There're federal grants to counties for all kinds of other things.

None of which are more important that fair elections.

[1StrongBlackMan]

56. Again ... Federalism. And a dire need for civics to be taught.

[Scuba]

60. So you got nothing.

[1StrongBlackMan]

61. Apparently, nothing that will get through.

[Scuba]

63. You've offered zero rationale as to why polling places are closing.

Are you OK with five hour lines to vote? If so, why?

[1StrongBlackMan]

64. I didn't know that a rationale was being requested ...

No. I am not OK with 5 hour waiting lines to vote. And, I believe that the cost-cutting rationale for the closures is a pretext for making it more difficult for Democrats and (potential) trump supporters to vote.

[Scootaloo]

26. Kind of looks that way at times...

Welcome to St. Louis, MO.

[Scuba]

40. You noticed that too, eh?

[LiberalArkie]

41. But way back the feds passed a clean water act. It paid for sanitary sewer systems, new and

improved sanitary water systems. But geez that was back when even the Republicans were liberal. There were grants to cities and counties to build public hospitals and clinics. But that was in the 60's and 70's though. And way back then when people paid taxes because everyone benefited. Such a stupid concept when looking back on it isn't it.

[Ghost Dog]

42. WTF is that?

[Scootaloo]

47. That is the St. Louis police department

Specifically, the SLPD "engaging" in Ferguson.

[Ghost Dog]

49. Jesus, Mary and Joseph (as Irish friends might exclaim).

Impressive pic. Did the photographer survive?

[Dustlawyer]

7. I said this same thing the other day! Good one!!!

[Igel]

11. There is no unitary government.

No central unitary executive that holds all the power over everything.

Once you get that, it's easier.

We have a federal government.

We have 50 state governments, territories and at least one district each has its government.

I live in a county, and counties have governments.

I'm outside the city limits, but in this state cities have governments that overlap with county governments.

Then there's the HOA, which is a kind of local government with zoning restrictions and limited taxation rights.

There is also no "we." When you say "we" here, I think you mean everybody, but probably don't want to include yourself in the responsibility of paying more for education, the sick, elections, or the elderly. For that, there's those who aren't what many consider "we" (the people, as opposed to those we don't like). That would be the 40% "we" commonly called "the 99%" that's opposed to the 20% "they" often called "the 1%".

Languages with inclusive and exclusive pronouns are much better for this kind of discourse. I wonder how politicians survive? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clusivity)

[Scuba]

14. I'm not sure what your point is, if you have one, but federal grants to counties are commonplace.

Your lame attempt to smear me shows you probably have no point.

[Enthusiast]

67. Huge +1!

[Press Virginia]

79. so the defense budget is needless if the state/local government

doesn't apply for a federal grant to increase poll access during primary season when voter turnout is traditionally lower and assets are allocated based on prior years?

[Scuba]

83. Please substantiate your claim of "assets are allocated based on prior years." That's not ...

... what's being reported.

What is being reported is that polling places have been closed as cost saving measures.







I also didn't even vaguely suggest the defense budget was "needless" but that the largest defense budget in the world must be being mis-used if we can't afford fair elections.

[Chan790]

12. Any time you hear that argument...

ask them why they don't push for vote-by-mail...it gets higher involvement and costs dramatically-less.

It's because closing polling places is rarely about cost and usually about depressing turnout...no matter what excuse they use for the closures. I suspect however that you already knew this.

[Scuba]

13. Bingo!

[appalachiablue]

29. THREAD WINNER! Congratulations, pick up your prize at the check out counter!

[d_legendary1]

39. Never heard about that before

And it makes a ton of sense. Thanks for that!

[SomethingFishy]

44. Colorado has vote by mail

I do it for every election. There are so many positives you can't even list them all. One plus is you have an actual hand marked ballot you can put in a pile and count. No hacking here.
But my favorite reason is I can look up each issue and candidate I'm voting on. None of this wait in line and then hurry up so the next person can vote. The ballots come early and it gives you time to look up each candidate and issue and make a sound decision.

Hey, those are probably the two main reasons Republicans don't want "vote by mail"!

[litlbilly]

99. So does Oregon. Ill get my ballot probably today. Its my first primary ever:)

[awoke_in_2003]

15. Profit is the only thing that matters

Public education must be broken because their isn't profit in it. Healthcare is broken, and the current model is very profitable. No profit in voting. And war is all about profit.

[ancianita]

19. Once we truly face that it's not US, we can organize our resources. My old favorite, tax strike,

comes to mind.

[jwirr]

23. That may be on the list - plans are being made.

[ancianita]

25. Happy to hear it. Hope you'll keep us posted.

[jwirr]

27. Nothing to post just yet but I can guarantee that there is

going to be more political involvement from here on. I trust this younger generation.

[ancianita]

31. I've hung out with many and have never heard a mumbling word about it. I'll take your

word for it but have no evidence on my end that the generation even thinks like that. Still. Hope runs eternal for old hippies like me.

[jwirr]

58. I'm an old hippie myself and what I was talking about is

the idea that there is already organization to continue the Bernie movement by getting the candidates that support his ideas elected (funding them) and ideas regarding working for change through lobbying and protest. There is nothing concrete yet but there is talk about it.

[JDPriestly]

32. A tax strike is ineffective. Have you ever heard the words, "tax liens."

Vote for Bernie. In LA he promised to audit the military budgets.

Also, in the back of his book, Insider in the White House, he has a list of various items that could be cut from the budget and how much money each would save.

Read the book. He is a thrifty man, not a phony thrifty man like Ronald Reagan. Bernie is the real thrifty presidential candidate.

[ancianita]

46. Sure. But they can't jail us all. There are a lot of boomers ready to go out over a big move,

not just a Bernie revolution.

I can trust that he's got all the good ideas, sure. This is not about what Bernie can and will do.

This is a move for if/when the DNC machine shuts him down.

[Petrushka]

97. I tried to locate "Insider in the White House" on amazon . . .

. . . and found that the actual title of Bernie's book is Outsider in the White House.

It's all good!

And, of course, I ordered a copy.

[Hestia]

100. How would one work (strike)? People pay their tax through payroll deduction, by law isn't it?

How does everyone get around that? You can't change your W4 anymore, loading it with too many dependents, like you could in the 80s & early 90s.

[ancianita]

105. You don't have to; that's voluntary. You can keep all your money, make the IRS wait for 364 days.

I don't pay taxes until tax day.

[aggiesal]

20. Shhh! Our tax breaks at work. n/t

[jwirr]

22. 100% correct.

[Fast Walker 52]

35. I think 90% of Dems and Independents agree on this, the Repubs are brainwashed though

Certainly our politicians aren't paying attention to us, and I don't Hillary will be an improvement in this area.

[Scuba]

37. Not just the MIC. The Navy spends most of its efforts protecting oil shipments and other ...

... cheap crap from overseas. Corporations, now paying historically low tax rates, are the beneficiaries.

[dreamnightwind]

81. It's more of a procurement budget

Stabilize/destabilize depending on who's in charge and who has their eyes on which resources.

The little actual defense in defense spending is either to neutralize threats from other nuclear states (can be reduced but not going away anytime soon) or it is reacting to the blowback (terrorism) of our procurement policies.

[JDPriestly]

30. K&R. Excellent post!

[Fast Walker 52]

33. PRIORITIES, PEOPLE!

How will weapons contractors feed their coke habits, if we don't award massive contracts to them???

[scscholar]

43. At least you still have polling places!

Here in Seattle we have to vote by mail which is just full of fraud, and in the last election, there were only two ballot boxes for the entire city of Seattle! Our rulers do not allow us to vote.

[Scuba]

45. Please provide some evidence of your "full of fraud" claim. Vote by mail is very popular ..

... from what I've heard, and would certainly eliminate all the polling place problems we've been seeing.

[scscholar]

48. Last I checked, King County (Seattle), threw away 7% of the votes...

Well, that's what they admitted to. From talking to friends that also had their votes thrown away, the real numbers had to be much higher.

The county provides a nice web site for you to tell that they threw away your vote:

http://info.kingcounty.gov/elections/ballottracker.aspx

If you have any friends in Seattle, you can check to see if their votes were thrown away. I went through more than two dozen of my friends, and not a one of us had our vote count. Since I found that web site eight years ago, my vote hasn't not been thrown away a single time. Vote by mail is a massive fraud. Our rulers can just trash our votes and we have no way to fight back.

[Scuba]

52. The ability to check on one's own vote is hardly evidence of voter or election fraud. In fact ...

... a google search on "king county washington voter election fraud" had exactly one report of a vote-fraud scheme, that from 2007.

If vote by mail is "full of fraud" as you claim, there must be hundreds of reports. Please provide links supporting your claim; otherwise some of the more cynical DU members might conclude you're full of shit.

[scscholar]

54. WTF, I gave you the link so you could check yourself

I have a list of coworkers with their DOB and can easily look-up most of my friend's birthdays on Facebook, it's easy to see who didn't have their votes counted. I've talked to dozens of people that said they voted, but didn't have their vote count.

[Scuba]

55. I don't live in Washington, so I can hardly check my own vote. Even if I could, and it was gone ...

... that would hardly substantiate "full of fraud."


Hearsay also does not qualify. Again, recommend you either provide links or edit your post. Otherwise someone might think you're lying.

[scscholar]

57. Here's one for you to try:

William Gates 10/28/1955

"Your record was found and you were not eligible to vote, OR your voter record was not found OR your voter registration may not be current/active."

When a billionaire can't get their voting registration fixed, what hope do we have?

[Scuba]

59. Anecdote, not evidence. Admit it, you got nothing.

[Ghost Dog]

53. Interesting. Who scrutinises the count, and on what grounds are ballots rejected? Are these stated?

No way to fight back, if one has evidence? What about the courts? What about mobilised collective protest?

[former9thward]

74. BS

AZ has vote by mail and they had long wait lines at some of the polling places. They mail the ballot to you a month before in a postage paid return envelope. But people refused to participate in that and ended up waiting in line. I don't feel sorry for them at all.

[Scuba]

86. Check with Oregon; they seem to love it.

[former9thward]

109. I don't need to check with OR.

Last edited Tue May 3, 2016, 04:00 PM - Edit history (1)

I live in AZ and love vote by mail here. I get my ballot and 2 hours later it is back in the mail system. If people don't want to participate in that it is on them not me.

[Johonny]

50. All the money rich people avoid paying in taxes?

[Dont call me Shirley]

62. Eliminate war, the playtoy of the uber-rich!

[Enthusiast]

65. K&R! This post deserves hundreds of recommendations.

This is a No shit Sherlock moment.

[SusanCalvin]

66. Well said!

[retrowire]

68. Excellent point. nt

[Silver_Witch]

69. Excellent question!

What the fuck are we defending? Oligarchy that's what!

[certainot]

70. it's just the fucking republicans - elect dems

years of unchallenged rw talk radio - hanging chads were turned into electronic voting to save money!

every time a county or state wants to increase spending on elections the local rw radio stations go nuts, as prompted and scripted by the state koch think tanks

dems have to go on the offensive re talk radio

ections are another issue that can be protested at these 90 universities, which support 270 limbaugh stations selling voter fraud fraud, suppression, e-voting, etc., and elect the nutjob who support it

[billhicks76]

71. Hillary Leaned From Her Buddies Rove and Bush Family

[Photographer]

72. If we can't afford to have polling places for voting how the hell can we call ourselves

a democracy?

[former9thward]

75. AZ will not lose anything.

And they are defended by the state Attorney General so they don't pay any extra in legal expenses. AZ has vote by mail. Any of the people in line could have voted a month before when the state mailed out ballots to everyone who wanted one.

[former9thward]

108. Yes, everybody.

If they moved that recent then they would have had to change their voting address in order to vote anywhere -- by mail or in person. If they did not do that then they would be out of luck.

[underthematrix]

76. Republican govs in red states

[Scuba]

84. Mostly, yes, but not germaine to my OP.

[DrBulldog]

78. Sorry, but I've lived the past 30 years in Oregon so could someone tell me . . .

. . . what "polling places" and "waiting lines" are? I apologize for being so far AHEAD of the rest of you elsewhere in the country.

[Kablooie]

80. Obviously it's defending the right for the rich to become richer. What Else?

[Squinch]

82. We are seeing this because Democrats stayed home in the midterms and didn't fight

the down-ticket races hard enough, and didn't FUND the down-ticket races well enough, so Republicans got into office and did everything they could to close those polling places.

Let's see this for what it is, and let's see our own culpability in it. And that way we know not to do that again.

[Scuba]

85. Not exactly ...

"If the Democratic Party would fight as hard for the Working Class as the Republican Party fights for the Ruling Class, the Republicans would be a powerless minority party within a few election cycles.

The Democratic Party knows this, the Republican Party knows this, the Ruling Class knows this- and they've been astonishingly successful at making sure the Working Class never learns this. ~ Anonymous

[Squinch]

87. I guess you would think of that as proof.

It is nothing but childish rage about the ineffectuality we have experienced that is our own damn fault. Virtually ALL of Sanders's platform required a sympathetic Congress. If you were serious about supporting anything he proposed, you would be all over the down-ticket campaigns.

But it's much easier to see conspiracies. That way no one has to actually do anything.

[Scuba]

88. Are you suggesting the Dems do fight for working class as hard as Reps for owners?

If so, what evidence can you provide?

If not, what's your point?

[Squinch]

89. If we never give them a majority, how do you propose they do that?

Throughout the country, they seldom have the majority, at the state level and the Federal level. That forces them into a position where they have to make concessions in order to get anything. See above about the civics lessons. It isn't a conspiracy.

My point is that if you want ANY of the things that Sanders proposed, you need to work for a Democratic congress and Democratic state legislatures and quit feeling sorry for yourself. If you want to just cry "conspiracy" and not do anything, you won't ever see your "revolution".

The problem with your "revolution" is that you guys are ALWAYS barking up the wrong tree.

Elect Democrats to Congress.

[Scuba]

96. Bush got every thing he wanted with no super-majority. Dems didn't fight him at all. Further ...

... in 2009 and 2020, Dems had a majorityand all we got was the Heritage Foundation insurance plan. We only had a super-majority for eight weeks, but our side didn't do squat during that eight weeks.



Quit excusing the failures of Democratic Party leadership.

[Squinch]

107. Our side got a historic health plan through which could never before be passed and

which has insured millions of previously uninsured people and families.

But so what is YOUR plan?

You refuse to work within the structure we have because the Democratic Party leadership is part of a vast conspiracy against you. So now what?

Now you sit on your thumbs and complain till the current system is "overthrown" and the people you want are in office? And this is despite the fact that the group you think will do the overthrowing couldn't get their shit together enough to organize the NY Independents to re-register, because it's too hard to plan 5 months in advance? Despite the fact that your candidate didn't do enough research into the process to figure out that super delegate support might be a nice thing to have? Despite the fact that your constituency got slammed in a primary, much less a general election?

Again, this is just an excuse to sit around and complain while you bark up the wrong tree. It does nothing.

Whereas getting Democrats into Congress creates the environment where change can actually happen.

I can't believe I have to argue this here.

[Scuba]

110. Please provide evidence of your claim that I "refuse to work within the structure ..."

You think I just got involved in politics yesterday? Think again.

You've still provided no evidence that Democrats fight as hard for the working class as Republican do for the owner class while there's a mountain of evidence that suggests they do not.






I can't believe I have to argue this shit here.

[Helen Borg]

90. The 1% still needs an infrastructure to serve them...

That is what the military is defending.

[cer7711]

91. The oligarchy.

[Uncle Joe]

92. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Scuba.

[whereisjustice]

93. The 1% like Hillary don't want working class to have the ability to look after

their own best interests. That's what Debbie Wasserman Schultz and DNC is for... they keep us oppressed, and our votes worthless.

[Vote2016]

94. Yet many here support a neocon who will spend aggressively on conflucts abroad but won't change our

tax structure, who considers universal single payer health care an unrealistic goal, who mocks a higher education plan enjoyed by many Europeans, etc.

These are not my values.

I'm so sick of having the least objectionable corporate oligarch shoved down my throat as if supporting the least extremist conservative neocon was my duty as an FDR Democrat to fight off a strawman like Trump or Cruz for the alleged greater good.

[marmar]

95. k/r

"Cost saving" means "Vote Suppressing" in Bullshitese. ..... And tragically, even Democrats have shown they are willing to do this when they want to engineer a result (witness Rhode Island):

[tk2kewl]

98. the defense budget is defending profits for the 1%

[Fresh_Start]

101. You said a mouthful.

Thats the letter that should be sent to every political commentator and editor in the country.

[Agnosticsherbet]

102. Elections are controlled and funded by the individual states. The National Defense Budget can not be

used. That would interfere with the Constitutional rights of the individual states.

Place blame on state legislatures and the officials who run elections in the individual states.

[Scuba]

111. Feds give grants to states and counties all the time. Your post is bullshit.

[Agnosticsherbet]

113. Your answer is bullshit. Only funds raised by Congress for that purpose could be granted.

The Federal defense budget can not be used in elections.

By law, only funds raised and passed by Congress could be applied to that purpose. Then, of course, you would have to convince Republicans controlling the House to initiate a funding bill for the purpose of paying for the operations of State and county election offices. An identical bill would have to be passed by the Senate. If there are differences, they would have to go to a committee and then returned to the House and Senate for an up or down vote. Then, of course, the President would have to sign it.

This is very basic information on how our government works. I hope this basic information is sufficient to enlighten you on how our government budgeting system works.

Money from the Defense Budget can not be applied to any other purpose without the exclusive approval of Congress. They will not do that.

Republican's in Congress are not going to do such a thing, ever. I suspect that if we did get control of both houses of congress, and pass such a bill, Republican controlled states would take the matter to court as an unconstitutional interference in their Constitutional powers.

[Scuba]

114. There is nothing to keep Congrpess from providing funding for counties to staff polling places.

If you think there's some Constitutional prohibition on this, please provide a citation.

Thanks.

[Agnosticsherbet]

115. It is against that law to use the Defense Budget, as I said in my primer on our system.

That was what you called for.
Now you just need to get Republicans in the House of Representatives to write that budget bill.

Good luck.

[Scuba]

117. No, I did not call for using the defense budget. I asked what our defense budget was ...

... defending if we couldn't afford fair elections.


Your posts seem more like diversions than honest discourse.

[Agnosticsherbet]

118. It wasn't a diversion. The Defense budget has nothing to do with elections, and shouldn't.

[Scuba]

119. So why did you bring that up? I sure didn't.

[B Calm]

103. It's what conservatives do. They did that here in Indiana, along with closing down

rest areas. In the neighboring state of Illinois the republican governor has slashed government spending to new levels. We recently went to an Illinois state park to go camping. The shower house heater was broken and no toilet paper anywhere in the rest rooms. The campground host said the governor can give huge tax cuts to wealthy corporations, but at the same time whine about how much it cost to run the state. He also said park workers don't know from week to week if they'll get a paycheck. On the way home I noticed Illinois also closed down their rest areas too.

[Turbineguy]

104. Saving the cost of having to dump

the voted ballots before they are counted.

[onecaliberal]

106. Its mission is not to defend, it's to make $. We are pawns.

[malaise]

112. Scuba Scuba Scuba

National interest means the interests of the 1%. Get a grip.

[WinkyDink]

116. The. One. Per. Cent.