We Need to Stop Treating Naturopaths Like They’re Medical Doctors

[cleanhippie]

On April 26, David and Collet Stephan, the Alberta couple who treated their sick toddler with horseradish and onion smoothies for two weeks, were found guilty of failing to provide the necessaries of life to their 18-month-old son, a sentence that carries up to five years in jail. Ezekiel died of meningitis in 2012.

It’s a tragic story, even more so because nobody doubts that David and Collet Stephan loved their son. Instead, they seem to have misguidedly believed that alternative therapies, including an echinacea tincture they bought at a naturopath’s office, would help him get better. The boy eventually stopped breathing, and they phoned 911. He later died in hospital. (The parents testified that they thought Ezekiel had the flu, although a family friend and nurse had suggested he may have meningitis.)

Doctors, government, and the alternative medicine industry all have a duty to do better here. Horseradish and echinacea are no substitute for conventional, science-based medicine. Patients across Canada need better access to family doctors, and they need to know—without a doubt—when it’s time to seek one out, and forego the naturopath.

--snip--

Naturopaths have been given the right to self-regulate in many parts of Canada, like Alberta, which gives them a veneer of professionalism. But the general public should be clear on this: plenty of their most popular services still have little or no science behind them. In a 2011 survey in Alberta, Caulfield found that homeopathy, detoxification, and hydrotherapy were among the most popular and advertised treatments offered by Alberta’s naturopaths. “There is no scientific evidence to support those services at all,” he said.

Detoxing, for one, has been debunked over and over again. But people keep paying for it.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/we-need-to-stop-treating-naturopaths-like-theyre-medical-doctors-alberta

[Dr Hobbitstein]

1. K&R for science and reason! nt

[cleanhippie]

3. Unfortunately, those that choose naturopaths over medical doctors have rejected reason altogether.

My wife and I used a naturopath for the home-birth of our daughter. She was a licensed midwife. After regular visits to actual medical doctors to confirm her pregnancy and fetus were healthy and normal, we opted to save thousands of dollars and avoid the stress and dangers of a hospital birth. And it went as smooth as butter.
But I would never have opted to see the naturpoath over the M.D. for actual medical care and advice.

[JackInGreen]

28. Any of the naturopaths I've known would recomend just that

It's NOT a replacement for primary care.

[Hortensis]

60. Yes, and U.S. law emphatically does not regard

naturopathy as a replacement for a medical license either.

Otoh, what "we" free people (those judged legally competent to make our own medical decisions anyway) choose for ourselves is our own business. And, if we do our job right as citizens, it always will be.

[HuckleB]

69. Uh, many of them think otherwise.

http://aanmc.org/naturopathic/primary_care_providers/

and that's not good...

https://www.thelundreport.org/content/naturopaths-primary-care-providers-what-they-do-not-want-you-know

Spend some time reading here. It's time we stop this foolishness.

http://www.naturopathicdiaries.com

[HassleCat]

2. It should be illegal

These quacks are bilking people out of large sums of money for water infused with positive energy and such shit. I use the word "shit" because you would be better off rubbing manure on yourself than visiting a naturopath.

[longship]

4. Dr. Quackenbush, ND (Not a Doctor) R&K nt

[LAGC]

5. What is your problem with woo?

We all know disease is all in the mind. A little placebo here, a little placebo there, some "positive thoughts" and "positive energy" and VOILA! People feel so much better! Who are you to say otherwise??

I mean, really. Who are medical professionals to judge if someone wants to use "healing prayer" or "laying of hands" to cure diabetes and cancer? We all know God works in mysterious ways, so keep your "godless science" away from those well-meaning "faith healers" and naturopath sooth-sayers, you Doubting Thomas you!

[cleanhippie]

13. It's difficult to argue with such sound reasoning.

[whatthehey]

22. You forgot chi. It's all about chi, dude. I mean....woah, chi.

[EX500rider]

119. Of course it's all about the Chi!!

We are talking Chihuahua's, right? : )

[hankthecrank]

6. Well my wife have been messed over with medical doctors too

So you can put their stinking asses were the sun don't shine too

They have worked to elimate good cures that do work and proven too work because they didn't get their cut of the money.

So medical doctors are not the answer either always

I talked my mom into so we could get autopsy on my Dad because of the way a he died. Also not caught by the fucking gods the doctors. Two doctors came in laughing and joking gave us the results that some two year old would have pulled out of his ass.

The fucking gods the doctors were no help with my wife's infections either. They took the money but didn't want to help

When my mother in law died they didn't want give her enough pain medication because her brain tumour made it so she couldn't ask for it. But she tell my wife her problems.

So don't go on how the fucking gods doctors are so great

[HuckleB]

7. What "good cures" did doctors eliminate?

[shenmue]

11. They call you crank for a reason

[PasadenaTrudy]

54. Ha! You beat me to it n/t

[cleanhippie]

15. Cool story, bro.

[lunasun]

25. I agree std. healthcare messed up. Too much about $ and networkbuilding /removing independnt drs and

low profit cures are not researched

[scscholar]

55. And they care more about how much they can bill you...

and how many bills they can send than actually fixing the problem. After all, if they actually fixed problems, it would cut into their profits.

[HuckleB]

59. Hogwash.

[snooper2]

68. Are you trying to post on a smartphone or is something else going on?

"I talked my mom into so we could get autopsy on my Dad"

"But she tell my wife her problems."


can you share LOL

[Gene Debs]

8. A fairly extensive study of homeopathic remedies was recently conducted by—well, I

don't recall at the moment which University did the study, but the results basically found recommended homeopathic remedies to be effective in treating 0 out of 68 tested illnesses. Not a good showing.

[elljay]

27. I bet they're good for treating dehydration

since they're water.

[robbob]

48. I also heard about that study

Last edited Fri Apr 29, 2016, 03:49 PM - Edit history (1)

Over in Europe; Sweden maybe? Somewhere where you would imagine they have fairly liberal views on alternative medicines. Yeah, the results were not very impressive if you are a believer in homeopathy.

However, in my mind I did have a reservation about the methodology. Or a question, rather, since I didn't hear all the details of the study.

But from what I heard, it sounded like they tested many many different homeopathic treatments. Now given that there's a homeopathic treatment for everything from strep throat to skin rashes I think they might have been casting too wide a net.

As in, maybe take the top 3-5 treatments that claim to be effective (anecdotally or otherwise) and run extensive tests on only those products. Or even just the #1 homeopathic remedy. Test that on 100 people and report back on the efficatiousness of THAT.

Although I suspect the results would still be unimpressive...

[FBaggins]

81. Yet it's remarkable how widespread the products are

It's happened at least three times in the last year that I stopped by a pharmacy looking for OTC treatment for one minor ailment or another only to find that the products were homeopathic "remedies". Apparently name-brand products advertised for the symptoms I was looking for and it was only when I checked the active ingredients (to look for conflicts with other medication I had already given the kids)... that I found that there weren't any.

Well... at least I wouldn't have to worry about drug interactions if I had picked one up!

Even Zicam (that I've heard of for years)... had nothing in it.

[HuckleB]

106. Whole Foods and its imitators like New Seasons sell it in the impulse section.

It's disturbing. $20 for a day and a half's worth of sugar pills to treat the flu. And there's a children's version to boot.

[Humanist_Activist]

109. Homeopathy isn't a protected term, anyone can label any supplement as "homeopathic" and...

so they can sometimes have things in them. Two examples, Zicam nose spray had zinc in it, at concentrations that can cause anosmia, the company who sells it didn't report complaints to the FDA.

To give another example look at the name brand Arnicare:

https://shop.boironusa.com/medicine/arnicare-cream/

As you can see, they label their product as homeopathic, but look at the ingredient list. It says 1X then the ingredient, is at a 1:10 ratio or so of dilution, that's a high enough ratio to actually have the so called active ingredient be present.

[CanSocDem]

9. Same with chiropractors...

...and they fought 'tooth and nail' for the legal right to be called "doctors". In Sk., their treatment of one female patient caused her death. And I personally experienced their dangerous arrogance when they attempted "an adjustment" on me, without the benefit of at least an X-ray that would have disclosed crushed vertebrae...

Fact is nobody is a doctor AND we all are doctor. It depends on how much of your life you want to turn over to someone else.

The 2 biggest recruiters in western society are the church industry and the medical industry, and they want your total allegiance. That allegiance keeps them both economically viable, despite both of their failures to deliver 'miracle cures'.

Using one to bash the other is just a distraction; what neither of them want to admit is the power of the human soul.


.





.

[shenmue]

12. Nobody is a doctor? Are you kidding?

[cleanhippie]

23. Uhm, yeah.

The actual fact is that people that undergo years of intense medical training, internship, and examination are doctors.

[CanSocDem]

35. Obviously...

...it's time you stopped taking their word for all the so-called training they are supposedly doing.

Despite what you have been taught growing up, the medical industry has evolved into a For Profit enterprise. Big Pharma is their 'money maker' and mainstream media, their advertising agency.

If you have any experience in the 'work world' you would have watched this evolution of public service become out of necessity(they say), a privately funded operation in practically every industry in the USA.

You no longer have "science" on your side. It belongs to the highest bidder.


.

[cleanhippie]

40. Stop taking the word of accredited medical schools and take yours instead?

Oh. My. God! I totally forgot about BIG PHARMA!!!!!!

Oh noes!!!111!!1!1!1!!!

[MattSh]

10. It's about time we stopped pretending...

that the first time somebody got sick 100 years or 1000 year ago, it was a death sentence.

People survived all number of illnesses and diseases for thousands of years, all without the help of "modern" medicine.

[shenmue]

14. Lifespan in ancient times was 30 if you were lucky

[OnlinePoker]

70. A large reason for this was death in childhood and childbirth

If you got through those, you could live substantially longer than 30 years.

[Wilms]

111. I'll bet trauma decreased the average lifespan considerably.

So give it up for trauma treatment. And throw in anti-biotics. After that, how much to the average lifespan has been added? And how many of those years are unpleasant?

Still, when it's applied and works, it's a pretty good thing.

[cleanhippie]

17. I'm sure you're trying to make a point, but I'm not sure you know what it is.

[Rex]

20. Okay sure, getting ill might not kill ya...but a broken bone or any number of internal

injuries meant certain death. Broken neck, spider bite, infected cut.

[whatthehey]

26. Sure they did. It's just that

Many more survive better and longer with modern medicine, including plenty like this kid who died for lack of it. NOT killing your kid needlessly by rejecting basic medical care is a good thing, surely?

[LeftyMom]

33. 1/3 to 1/2 of Europe died of the plague. Today we can treat it with a $4 antibiotic.

People used to die of diabetes all the damn time too. It's probably what did Henry VIII in.

[LeftishBrit]

36. People died much younger on average before modern medicine.

In the UK (and it's probably not very different in the USA), the average life expectancy in 1900 was about 47 for a man, and 50 for a woman. Now it's about 79 for a man and 83 for a woman.

Even as recently as 1971, it was about 10 years lower than the current level.

It's estimated that the life expectancy in the Middle Ages was about 35 - and that was at those times when the Black Death was not raging.

Of course, this doesn't mean that EVERYONE in the past who got sick died, or the human race wouldn't have survived at all; but a lot of people did die young!


ETA: the global life expectancy average in 1960 was 52 years (though it was already considerably higher in developed countries). I've seen even lower estimates. Now it is 70.

[dreamnightwind]

117. The median is more informative than the average

and not nearly as improved. There was a lot of infant mortality that artificially lowered the averages you are quoting. If you made it past a certain age your life expectancy was much closer to our current life expectancy. Not as long, but much closer.

People make this same mistake when suggesting we should raise the social security age, claiming people are living much longer, using averages instead of medians. We aren't living all that much longer when we only consider people who live to be old enough to contribute to a social security account. Of course this omission is convenient for the social security hawks.

[LeftishBrit]

118. True but even if you only take the adult life expectancy, things have improved a lot

If someone in Britain or America in 1900 made it to the age of 20, they could expect on average to live to their early 60s - about a 10-year gain on their life expectancy at birth. Nowadays, they could expect to live to their early 80s - only a slight increase over the expectation at birth. Even so, it's a big improvement. And of course the reduction in infant/childhood mortality is a great improvement in itself.

My major point is that it is surely inappropriate to dismiss the advantages of modern medicine just because not EVERYONE died without it. Should we dismiss the problems of homeless people because after all many cavemen survived despite not having houses to live in? (This is responding to the previous post that sparked my reply, not to your post.)

[Humanist_Activist]

46. Jesus fucking Christ, the evidence is right in front of your eyes, visit a graveyard...

that is 100 plus years old and look at the many graves of children. Talk to grandparents, or great-grandparents(if still alive), ask them how many siblings they HAD growing up. The answers will surprise you.

Nowadays, you don't have to pop out 3 to 6 kids on the hope that one of them survives past the age of 5, I call that progress.

[Starry Messenger]

133. My mother almost died as a child of scarletina. That was only 65 years ago.

Drugs would have kept her from nearly dying, losing all of her hair, and going deaf temporarily.

[shenmue]

16. Here come the anti-science people!

[cleanhippie]

18. Like clockwork.

[CanSocDem]

37. So how's that big doctor strike in the UK going? (eom)

[cleanhippie]

41. Don't know. I don't live in the UK.

I'm sure you have a point. Do you even know what it is?

[PasadenaTrudy]

57. Big Pseudoscience! lol

[Rex]

19. Adults can make decisions, kids depend on adults...that is where I draw the line.

Not saying someone cannot get fucked up from malpractice, that happens too. However, a child dying from negligence is wrong. The courts seem to agree with me.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

21. not to be confused with naturopathic physicians like the one who saved my life

After 2 MDs failed to take my symptoms seriously.

[cleanhippie]

24. Please, elaborate on that.

What's a Naturopath Physician, and how do they save your life?

[HuckleB]

32. Interesting.

The story changes over time.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7671775

[Viva_La_Revolution]

39. i decided not to count that first doctor, since to be fair i only had a few symptoms back then

And was also dealing with cervical cancer, a hysterectomy and menopause. Everything else is exactly what i said before. Here is the link to her web page, which proves my previous post.
http://www.pdxdnc.com/

[Humanist_Activist]

49. Interesting, so they use conventional methods of diagnosis, and then treats with alternative...

"medicine", the entire page on being a naturopathic "doctor" reads like an appeal to nature fallacy, also doesn't list what "natural" treatments are used. So what treatment cured your cervical cancer. Just curious.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

61. that was 10 years ago, a surgeon cured it. my NP diagnosed hashimotos

I am not against modern medicine. If you have an issue with my NPs credentials, perhaps you should take it up with Obamacare which covers her services.

[Humanist_Activist]

72. So, I'm assuming they didn't give you the "conventional" treatment plan for managing your..

hypothyroidism?

[Viva_La_Revolution]

77. no, she did not prescribe a synthetic T4 and tell me to come back in 6months

We had detailed discussions about the root causes of hashi's, the different treatments and i chose Armour for several reasons.

[Humanist_Activist]

108. Which is also prescribed by regular MDs all the time, though it isn't as preferred as the....

synthetic for most of the reasons supplements shouldn't be preferred. Good breakdown here:

http://www.endocrineweb.com/conditions/hypothyroidism/animal-thyroid-supplements-hypothyroidism

But I will say, if it works for you, and the brand name is consistent in dosage, then stick to it. But it was and still has evidence backing up its effectiveness, even if there are better alternatives out there.

So far, this naturpathic "doctor" of yours has yet to practice naturopathy on you. Interesting.

[HuckleB]

76. NP? Now they're co-opting the letters for Nurse Practitioners?

You know, clinicians with an actual education?

Sheesh.

And, yes, it is a very big problem that we waste actual money on these "providers." We have enough problems with our crap insurance program already.

Here's the reality: http://www.naturopathicdiaries.com

[Viva_La_Revolution]

79. No! i am on a tablet and too lazy to spell it out. lame

[HuckleB]

80. Zzzzzzz.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

83. NDs i looked it up and a link to calm your fears about the money and quality issues

http://eugenedailynews.com/2011/10/supporting-natural-health-care-in-the-new-oregon-health-plan/

"And what about those “alternative” therapies that NDs are so (in)famous for? Debate certainly rages about the validity of many approaches, especially more esoteric approaches such as homeopathy and acupuncture, but when researchers have asked “real-world” questions about how NDs perform when managing patients (which is really where the rubber hits the road), results are almost uniformly positive – and include tremendous cost-savings. A 2010 study conducted by researchers affiliated with the University of Washington, found that patients using alternative therapies for such common conditions as fibromyalgia, menopause, and back pain spent up to $1410 less on healthcare for their conditions than on patients that didn’t use alternative therapies."

Lots more at the link

[HuckleB]

84. Pretend doctors should not be paid, period.

http://www.naturopathicdiaries.com/nd-confession-part-1-clinical-training-inside-and-out/

[Viva_La_Revolution]

87. she was doing it wrong. from my link..

Naturopathic physicians are similarly licensed by the state of Oregon to act as independent primary-care providers, and have authority and responsibility to diagnose and treat disease, order lab tests, refer to specialists, prescribe pharmaceuticals, and administer vaccinations. In addition, NDs have significant training in evidence-based botanical medicine, mind-body interactions, nutrition, and physical medicine that few MDs, nurse practitioners, or physician’s assistants have ever been exposed to. Training is a 4-year program, and requires all of the same pre-medical sciences that MDs and DOs take before starting their programs.

[HuckleB]

88. You haven't even bothered to read a tiny bit of what she wrote.

ND education is crap, as anyone who looks at their courses understands. It is unconscionable that they are allowed to see patients. NDs are famous for trying to become RNs later, and they struggle when the class load gets real. This whole thing is an insane scam, from the schools on down.

[passiveporcupine]

101. You said it right here

Training is a 4-year program, and requires all of the same pre-medical sciences that MDs and DOs take before starting their programs.

They get the first four years, and that's it. A real doctor goes on to take at least four more years and then goes into a three or four year residency.

Even a pharmacist has to take more schooling than an ND, and yet the ND is allowed to prescribe pharmaceutical drugs?

[HuckleB]

104. And a lot of the content is nonsense, to boot.

[cleanhippie]

42. Always does.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

63. except it didn't change, no matter your tag teaming

[HuckleB]

64. Sure.

That doesn't make your anecdote worthy of sharing. It will only lead to greater harm.

http://www.naturopathicdiaries.com/nd-confession-part-1-clinical-training-inside-and-out/

[cleanhippie]

66. If it makes you feel better to think that...

[Viva_La_Revolution]

73. prove i am lying instead of just insinuating

Passive aggressive insults are sooo last week

[cleanhippie]

107. Meh.

I've nothing to prove to you. It's apparent evidence-based anything means little to you.

Have a nice day now, ya hear?

[Viva_La_Revolution]

38. info link

http://www.naturopathic.org/content.asp?contentid=60

I have hashimotos thyronditis. 10 years of symptoms, diagnosed myself with help from the google. 2 MD's tested my tsh only, said it was fine and refused to look further.

By the end of my first visit with Dr Rohina, which lasted nearly 2 hours, i had an order for 7 blood tests. Within a month i had a diagnosis and a complete plan from meds to diet and lifestyle. Within a year or so, my chances of heart disease will be ha!ved, and my pain issues are already reduced enough that i can get back to enjoying life again.
Oh yeah, Obamacare pays for her services. No woo here

[Humanist_Activist]

62. See this just shows how much bullshit they are full off, from the first two sentences:

Naturopathic physicians combine the wisdom of nature with the rigors of modern science. Steeped in traditional healing methods, principles and practices, naturopathic medicine focuses on holistic, proactive prevention and comprehensive diagnosis and treatment.

You know what they call "traditional healing methods, principles and practices" that have been tested and work? Medicine. They are literally creating a false dichotomy here, most conventional medicines are derived, for example, from plant extracts, the big differences is we try to figure out what they are doing in the human body, and test for dosages and effectiveness. Something that isn't done when you are taking some root extract from a supplement store. Hell, that "natural medicine" may not even be what it advertises it is, nor are the dosages regulated or controlled, etc.

If they are using the label as a means of treating people with real medicine and treatments, then my biggest objection is them elevating the appeal to nature fallacy and using it to attack doctors that don't use that label. If they don't use real medicine and treatments, then they are quacks who should be prosecuted as such.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

67. you are still purposely distorting the facts

They are medically trained and certified. They use a combination of modern and traditional methods.

[Humanist_Activist]

71. What traditional methods?

That's what I don't see, what they actually practice that is either "traditional" or "natural" which are, at best, misnomers.

You have been to one, so what did they practice that was either.

[passiveporcupine]

91. Are you not concerned with the length of training to become a Naturopathic Doctor?

She got her degree in four years, which included learning all about natural healing methods, and also In some states including Oregon they can also prescribe pharmaceutical drugs if needed.

To become a medical doctor, you have to go to school a lot longer.

Depending on whether you plan to work as a general physician or as another type of doctor, training can take between eleven and sixteen years. Most doctors complete at least four years of undergraduate school, followed by four years of medical school and then three-to-eight years of residency programs.

To become a nutritionist

Typically, a bachelor's degree takes four years to earn, though many online programs allow you to earn your degree in a shorter period of time. In some states, you only need a certificate or associate's degree to be eligible for your nutritionist license, and these can be achieved in two years or less.

To become a dentist

Dental school takes four years to complete at full-time status, so those who complete a bachelor's degree first will be in school for eight years. Those who do not finish a bachelor's degree first or who complete a combined bachelor's and doctoral degree program may take less time to finish their schooling.

It takes longer to become a pharmacist than a dentist or a naturopathic doctor.

Three to four years of undergraduate pre-professional (prerequisite) coursework, followed by four academic years in the professional program. Most students need four years to complete their prerequisite courses. Thus, it usually takes eight years of college study to earn a Pharm.D. and become a pharmacist.

I am glad that you feel better and the treatment seems to be working, but I do worry that you seem to think she is a regular doctor as well as a naturalist. She does not have the credentials to be a regular doctor, and I'm actually surprised that ANY state would allow her to prescribe pharmaceutical drugs.

I have two sisters who are also into natural healing and they are both licensed massage therapists. I believe massage therapy can be considered a real source of healing (especially Lymphatic Drainage Massage), but it doesn't make them doctors. They have both tried to pass on their beliefs and have pushed homeopathic treatments, crystals, magnet therapy, detoxing your feet in a tub of water with an electrical charge or something (I didn't try that one). None of any of the treatments I tried (just to pacify them) did any good at all for me.

That's not to say there are natural treatments that do work for many things, because many of our prescribed medicines and vitamins etc, are made from natural plants and minerals.

I use Melatonin when I can't sleep at night. It's OTC. An aspirin is well known to keep your heart healthy. and wine (especially red wine) will help open your veins, so it's good for your heart and helps clear up edema. A healthy diet and balanced electrolytes are essential to good health, and that doesn't take an MD to figure out. I use many other OTC drugs too, for various things, but they are all proven to work, not just on people who want to believe in them, but in everyone. For example...benadryl works the same way for everyone. Some people may have different side-effect than another person might have, but the general OTC drugs often started out being prescription drugs that had to pass tests to qualfiy, before they became OTC. I don't know what I'd do without ranitidine and prilosec. I believe they were both prescription first and now at lower doses are OTC.

Still, all the flower remedies my sisters believe in, or little pills that dissolve under your tongue to make your symptoms go away...they do absolutely nothing for me. I think the real benefit they may have is as a placebo, and in that case, it's your mind healing your own body. Now they may also use things that have been proven to work and are OTC...I have never been to a naturopath, so I don't know. In your case...if you are actually getting a thyroid replacement drug...even if it's not the standard one doctors use, it may still be working for you. I hope it continues to work and you recover fully.

But I seriously have a problem with a four year degree in natural medicine to qualify someone for prescribing pharmaceutical drugs. I'm sorry to hear that Oregon participates in that, as I don't believe it is wise (and I'm an Oregonian).

I know doctors can and do make mistakes. I've had my share of problems that way, but not all doctors are careless, or think they are know-it-alls and won't listen to the patient...something they really do need to do. I do hope that your caregiver does refer her patients to a specialist if they have a serious problem and her natural path to healing is not working for them.

Anyway, that is how I feel and it probably doesn't mean anything to you. Take care and be well.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

94. proof no one actually reads the links i posted. i guess my doc is best of both worlds

She was a dentist before becoming an ND, so has more training than most GPs

[passiveporcupine]

96. A dentist only needs four years of training

And they are not qualified to treat anyone as a doctor for anything other than oral care. They need to know what to do in the event a patient goes into cardiac arrest or something, while being treated, but that's pretty much it. In an emergency, they will still call an ambulance and send them to the ER.

I did read your doctor's web page and I was also curious about her disclaimer.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

97. 4+4 does not equal 8 in your world?

[passiveporcupine]

99. a GP typically gets eleven to sixteen years of training.

Is that proof that you didn't bother to read my post?

Also, dental training and naturopathic training does not cover everything that is in a normal doctor's degree program. They are both specialized fields. And Specialists have to get the training of a general practitioner first and then add on the specialty field. Which means many more years of college/internship/experience.

For example a specialty like neurosurgeon has to take 14 to 15 years of school/residency. That's why they get paid the big bucks.

[HuckleB]

100. Indeed. It's ludicrous.

Most of the content is bogus, on top of it.

http://www.naturopathicdiaries.com/nd-confession-part-1-clinical-training-inside-and-out/

[longship]

78. What is a naturopathic physician?

There's a simpler name for them.

Quacks

[chknltl]

29. This Veteran was sick of pills....

...to treat my raging acid reflux issues. My VA doctor's solution was to keep upping my dosages of Omeprazol. A nutritionist reccomended a change of diet and guess what....acid reflux is all but gone and i have cut back on that Omeprazol so much i could not tell you when i last ate a pill. Funny thing about Omeprazol is that it is a 'proton pump inhibitor'. Now i am no doctor but i recall recent news about other proton pump inhibitors as being bad for us.

Does this mean that i am switching to naturopaths? No but i am open minded AND i have reason to raise an eyebrow at pills.

[AtheistCrusader]

31. PPI's might be necessary, especially for someone that has a lap-sleeve bypass.

But not everyone needs it long term. Everyone's different.

[JDPriestly]

45. Lots of evidence-based medical doctors also recommend a change of diet.

But the no chocolate part is really hard.

[Humanist_Activist]

51. I think most conventional doctors would recommend diet changes and other methods...

such as weight loss to avoid prescribing the pills. But when they have a lot a patients who won't change their lifestyle to prevent such things, what are they supposed to do?

[REP]

86. PPIs have always been not good for long-term use

I used to have horrible reflux and a duodenal ulcer. Used to, because my doctor treated me for the H pylori infection that caused both rather than put me on a PPI because the underlying cause could be cured. This was back before they had a combo pill for it, so I took 2 strong antibiotics plus a ton of bismuth for two or three weeks. It was awful, but after I was done, no reflux and my ulcer had healed. I could and still can eat anything without reflux. I've had heartburn so rarely that I wasn't aware of what normal heartburn felt like the first time I had it! When that happened, I was again by my doctor told to avoid PPIs as much as possible, and to use ranitidine (Pepcid) only as it was safer.

[roamer65]

120. One thing to make sure of with acid reflux...

is to make sure you don't have obstructive sleep apnea.

OSA can draw the acid right up from your stomach to as far as your larynx. I went on CPAP and it cured my nighttime LPR. I don't have it anymore...whatsoever.

[chknltl]

132. I have had a few episodes that may be related.

While asleap i would have what felt like a partial vomiting episode. It would come on fast and wake me right up. These events were quite rare in my case, they sound very much like what you describe. When next I see my VA doctor i will be bringing this info up, thanks.

[AtheistCrusader]

30. The chiropractors that give babies 'adjustments' for colic should be first against the wall.

[kdmorris]

58. At least Australia is looking to rectify that situation...

AFTER a baby's neck got broken of course.

[progressoid]

34. Gwyneth Paltrow's goop saved my life!

I was near death and western doctors weren't helping at all. But after some of her recommended detoxing and a couple coffee enemas, I'm right as rain!

Thanks Gwyneth!

[JDPriestly]

43. Good heavens! It depends.

We don't even have single payer or universal evidence-based healthcare. People will probably always seek non-evident-based cures. I know some good ones for aches and pains -- like a beanbag put in the microwave.

People need to check with evidence-based doctors about their cures, but a lot of these old-wives-tale things don't hurt for minor aches and pains.

We need to make sure everyone at least has the choice to see an evidence-based, trained and licensed M.D. if they want to -- and without going into mountains of debt.

I thought the ACA was a great thing until a friend of mine told me how much a bronze plan could cost you. Wow! It's not affordable healthcare, at least not for her. I was shocked.

I'm on Medicare.

[HuckleB]

50. That doesn't justify quackery.

http://www.naturopathicdiaries.com/nd-confession-part-1-clinical-training-inside-and-out/

[JDPriestly]

56. Very true.

[cleanhippie]

65. The bean-bag in the microwave (heating pad) is evidence-based.

Not everything has to be pharmaceutical in nature to be evidence-based.
RICE:rest,ice, compression, elevation is another evidence based remedy for muscle strains and pains.

[Humanist_Activist]

74. No shit, I really don't understand this argument, there are a lot of remedies that are evidence...

based that don't involve prescriptions, and a lot of bullshit as well.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

52. Quit the BINARY thinking and wake up! Both 'sides' !

So many posts here are all black or all white, 100% for / 100% against.

Fact: Informed, educated (including or esp. self-educated) patients have the best outcomes.

Study up your symptoms. Listen to your Medical Doctor (allopathic) / Naturopath. Ask lots of questions. Then study the diagnosis. Get second opinions for serious matters, time permitting.

Fact: Naturopaths rarely have as much training and education as medical doctors. A few have more than most MDs (nothing is 100% one way or the other).

Fact: Medical doctors are not generally trained in and not generally as open to alternative medicine as they should be and especially not as understanding of nutrition as they should be. Some are. Note: nothing is 100% one way or the other.

Fact: Medical doctors tend to over-prescribe pills and surgery (because that is what they primarily study).

Fact: Naturopaths under-prescribe pills and surgery (because they aren't allowed to), but many of them (not all) will refer patients to MDs when appropriate.

Bottom-line: Trust science, inform yourself, keep an open mind, choose less medicine when it is a reasonable first approach and only when reasonable, stay rational and cautious, be ready to decide quickly when necessary, don't avoid drugs / surgery when it makes sense especially after trying other approaches.

For example, I use very little doctoring (I know I have been very lucky so far) and place the highest priority on good nutrition & exercise. I always treat flu and fevers myself (by hydrating, keeping very very warm, and resting). But when I had a persistent deep cough for a few days, I went to a doctor to check to see if I had bronchitis (did not, thank goodness). When I got shingles symptoms, I immediately went to a doctor who agreed, and got the anti-viral prescription, followed it to a T, and knocked it down and out, being symptom free since.

"Good luck comes from good planning." Staying informed is part of good planning. Good nutrition and exercise and avoiding unhealthy behaviors is good planning. Getting connected with a good medical doctor before you need one is good planning.

[Act_of_Reparation]

89. Well, that's the most ridiculous thing I've read all goddamned day.

But the important part is you found a way to feel superior to both sides. Grats.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

92. Well you can't find fault with it, so you make a personal attack. We see that. . nt

[Act_of_Reparation]

98. I find plenty wrong with it.

But there's no point getting into the specifics when your foundational premise is mealy-mouthed codswallop.

There's science and there's not-science. This is not a two-sided issue.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

103. You've had much time & 2 opportunities to actually post something meaningful, but

You've had lots of time and at least two opportunities to actually post something meaningful, but instead all you have done is professed your love of binary thinking and make a personal attack.

You have nothing and have contributed nothing to this thread.

[Act_of_Reparation]

129. I've had much time to do things either more pressing or more enjoyable...

...than pointing out in painful detail why a ridiculous position is unworthy of my time and attention, especially when one considers that those who hold ridiculous positions and those who lack the knack for critical self-reflection necessary to change positions are typically cut from the same cloth. But no matter. It's Caturday, so here's why everything you've said so far is a metric cartload of bullshit.

Fact: Informed, educated (including or esp. self-educated) patients have the best outcomes.

For most patients, the primary source of information on their health is their physician, so it also helps if those treating the patients know what they're doing. Medical doctors usually go to medical school. Chiropractors, accupuncturists, naturopaths, and other peddlers of woo do not.

Study up your symptoms. Listen to your Medical Doctor (allopathic) / Naturopath. Ask lots of questions. Then study the diagnosis. Get second opinions for serious matters, time permitting.

With all that bouncing around between different PCP's and specialists, it's a good thing we have single payer healthcare to absorb the co... oh, right.

Fact: Naturopaths rarely have as much training and education as medical doctors. A few have more than most MDs (nothing is 100% one way or the other).

How many is "a few"? Can you reccomend any of them?

Pro tip: Naturopaths didn't get to be so popular by being honest about their credentials.

Better pro tip: Those few naturopaths who do have strong medical credentials still lie to people. See Dr. Oz.

Fact: Medical doctors are not generally trained in and not generally as open to alternative medicine as they should be and especially not as understanding of nutrition as they should be. Some are. Note: nothing is 100% one way or the other.

This fact is not actually a fact.

Medical researchers are constantly testing "natural remedies" for their therapeutic uses and effectiveness. Anyone current on their medical education should have a pretty good idea of where things stand. Seeing as many medical doctors must complete Continuing Medical Education (CME) credits to keep their jobs while naturopaths suffer no such compunction, it's a good bet your doctor knows more about the effectiveness of natural remedies than the woo peddler down the street.

This might be anecdotal, but it is worth pointing out that almost every medical college has a few faculty looking into alternative medicine as either primary or supportive treatments. How many woo-schools have actual physicians teaching the next generation of woo-peddlers actual medicine?

Are there exceptions? Sure. But honestly, what are the fucking odds?

Fact: Medical doctors tend to over-prescribe pills and surgery (because that is what they primarily study).

This fact is actually half-a-fact.

Doctors, as a trend, overprescribe. But it isn't because "that's what they study" (it's because in many cases, that's what patients want) and it doesn't mean your doctor is over-prescribing.

Fact: Naturopaths under-prescribe pills and surgery (because they aren't allowed to), but many of them (not all) will refer patients to MDs when appropriate.

Right. Naturopaths will refer you to someone who knows what they're doing. What, exactly, does that say about naturopathy?

Bottom-line: Trust science, inform yourself, keep an open mind, choose less medicine when it is a reasonable first approach and only when reasonable, stay rational and cautious, be ready to decide quickly when necessary, don't avoid drugs / surgery when it makes sense especially after trying other approaches.

Bottom-line: Naturopaths are not honest. They lie. They disseminate information that is not true to people who are either too trusting or too ideologically invested in "nature" to make informed decisions.

On paper, your suggestion makes sense. In practice... seriously, man. You need to get out more.

For example, I use very little doctoring (I know I have been very lucky so far) and place the highest priority on good nutrition & exercise.

Cool story, bro, but that's not naturopathy. That's common sense. Any doctor worth a fuck will tell you to do exactly that. And the naturopaths aren't peddling diet and exercise. They're peddling magic potions made from onion juice and pancake syrup to treat actual medical problems requiring actual medicine to treat.

Again, you're completely out of touch with the reality of the situation. People aren't using naturopathy as a preventative medicine with the intention of seeking actual medical treatment when necessary; they are using naturopathy as primary care, and doing so because the fucking naturopaths have turned anti-medical paranoia into a fucking cottage industry.

You don't bring hundreds of patients through your doors by playing on fears of the medical industry and expect them go to an actual doctor when they get actual sick. And you can't expect people to make informed decisions when you owe the entirety of your livelihood to spreading misinformation.

TL;DR: you can't rely on the average person to make an informed decision because the average person is no longer able to discern the difference between actual information and misinformation spread by the naturopathic industry. People making bad decision isn't the problem, the naturopaths are.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

134. Thank you for responding in depth

You make some good points. Personally, I do not use naturopaths and think I never will.

I agree that a lot of over-prescribing happens partly because of pull by the patients. The relentless and heavy drug advertising doesn't help the bigger picture.

Not only do (some, many?) naturopaths lie, but (some, many?) doctors do too. It is often easier for them to prescribe than analyze. If they hear hoof beats, they diagnose horses, not zebras. Most of them make their profit by patient throughput. Naturopaths often make their profit by harmless overpriced potions that unfortunately too often displace proper medicine, as you point out.

Your best point (and one that permeates my post too) is that common sense needs to enter into the picture and be applied (though keeping in mind that appearances can be deceiving sometimes). Yes, there is too much paranoia about government, science, medicine, and big corporations; even though it is wise to be very wary of those.

Ultimately, educating citizenry and getting serious about teaching and extolling critical thinking again (instead of teaching-to-the-test) would pay enormous dividends in the area of healthcare and the rest of society including, but not least — dare we say it — voting.

[pnwmom]

114. Lots of good ideas here. Thanks. You're right that binary thinking is very hard for some people

to resist.

[MisterP]

53. that attitude is what let HIV run rampant in Honduras after it arrived 1983

it's now the worst case in Latin America and is busy kicking out foreign doctors because they do too much in the countryside and expose the Honduran medical establishment's chronic neglect

"EBM" ain't--it's just a way to try and get the patients to stop talking back and to deny that doctors have experience, and slapping a white coat on it

[HuckleB]

110. Say what?

[LynneSin]

75. That's child abuse just making a child drink a horseradish and onion smoothie

YUCK!

[BootinUp]

82. Its hard to fix stupid. nt

[HuckleB]

85. Why one naturopath quit after watching her peers treat cancer patients

http://www.vox.com/2015/9/2/9248713/britt-hermes

[EllieBC]

95. The case mentioned in the OP was in a place with socialized medicine.

The Stephans live in AB. They could have taken their poor toddler to a doctor, walk in clinic, or hospital at any time and not be billed.

Instead they chose to sacrifice their child on their altar of woo.

[PasadenaTrudy]

93. I just started following

a German woman on twitter. She is a former Naturopath who is now fighting back against naturopathic "medicine" and quackery. Good on her!

[HuckleB]

102. Are you talking about Britt Hermes?

She is fantastic.

http://www.naturopathicdiaries.com

[PasadenaTrudy]

105. Yes! n/t

[Stevepol]

112. I'd like to see a study comparing results for naturopaths and regular docs.

My guess it would be pretty much 50/50 and might even favor the naturopaths. The individual medical practitioner I suspect is the bigger key to success than the modality used.

Regular doctors nowadays, allied with the corporate health industry, dealing with patients in a mega-sized hospital with too few nurses, with too few doctors and nurses per patient, with nurses over-worked making bad decisions, with doctors tending to over-prescribe drugs that are often just rip-offs and harm the patient, creating more serious problems.

The emphasis should be on a many-sided, approach using commonly accepted modalities of treatment, balanced in every respect, the right drugs when drugs are used, close observation of the patient, etc.

From what I've read, naturopaths are generally well-trained and effective and more than willing to suggest another doctor for a patient if they feel they are dealing with a problem beyond their expertise.

[HuckleB]

115. Head to Naturopathic Diaries, and read the reality.

Last edited Sat Apr 30, 2016, 12:50 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.naturopathicdiaries.com/category/nd-confessions/

There is no comparison at all. There is no way we should allow any of this nonsense.

[pnwmom]

113. U.W. Medical Center, one of the top medical schools in the US, disagrees with you.

https://www.washington.edu/uaa/advising/at-the-uw/pre-health-advising/fields/medicine/

Medicine

To be "pre-med" means you are embarking on a course of study aimed at preparing you to apply to a medical school (or other post-graduate health profession). It means you are taking the classes and gaining the experiences that these schools look for in qualified applicants.

Types of medical practice

Allopathic

The system of medical practice which treats disease by the use of remedies which produce effects different from those produced by the disease under treatment. MDs practice allopathic medicine. In Washington State there is one allopathic medical school - The University of Washington School of Medicine (UWSOM). UWSOM pre-medical course requirements.

Osteopathic

Osteopathic medicine provides all of the benefits of modern medicine including prescription drugs, surgery, and the use of technology to diagnose disease and evaluate injury. It also offers the added benefit of hands-on diagnosis and treatment through a system of therapy known as osteopathic manipulative medicine. Osteopathic medicine emphasizes helping each person achieve a high level of wellness by focusing on health promotion and disease prevention. DO's practice Osteopathic medicine and specialize in all of the areas that allopathic (MD) physicians specialize in. In Washington State there is one osteopathic medical school - The Pacific Northwest University College of Osteopathic Medicine (PNWU). PNWU pre-medical course requirements.

Naturopathic

Naturopathic Medicine is a system of medicine that focuses on prevention and use of nontoxic, natural therapies." These natural therapies refer to, but are not limited to, proper diet and nutrition, exercise, nutritional supplements, herbology, homeopathy, and lifestyle modification and counseling. ND's practice Naturopathic Medicine. in Washington State there is one ND program - Bastyr University. Bastyr University pre-medical course requirements.

______________________

And Bastyr University and the National Institutes of Health disagrees with you.

Bastyr University offers Washington's only program in Naturopathic Medicine. Some Bastyr University research:

http://www.bastyr.edu/research/studies

Breast Cancer Integrative Oncology: Prospective Matched Controlled Outcomes Study
Status: Active
Study area: Oncology
Principal investigator: Leanna J. Standish, ND, PhD, LAc, FABNO; M. Robyn Andersen, PhD
Funded by: Primary funding by: NIH/NCCAM Grant No. 1R01AT005873; Study Expansion funding by: Lotte & John Hecht Foundation
Project period: 8/1/10 – 12/31/18

Intranasal Glutathione in Parkinson's Disease
Status: Completed
Study area: Neurology
Principal investigator: Laurie Mischley, ND, MPH
Funded by: NIH/NCCAM
Project period: 01/01/10 - 12/31/14

Bastyr/UW Oncomycology Translational Research Center
Status: Active
Study area: Oncology
Principal investigator: Leanna Standish, ND, PhD, LAc, FABNO; Mary L. (Nora) Disis, MD
Co-investigator(s): Lupe Salazar, MD, Hailing Lu, MD, PhD, Erin Sweet, ND
Funded by: NIH/NCCAM/NCI (U19) Partnership with University of Washington
Project period: 09/29/2010 - 08/31/2014

PSK as Neoadjuvant Therapy for Locally Advanced Breast Cancer Principal
Status: Completed
Study area: Oncology
Principal investigator: Hailing Lu (University of Washington)
Co-investigator(s): Cynthia Wenner, PhD
Project period: April 2010 – March 2014

Sauna Detoxification Study
Status: Completed
Study area: General Wellness, Other
Principal investigator: Jason Allen, ND, MPH
Funded by: NIH/NCCAM
Project period: 07/01/13-04/30/14

Haptoglobin Phenotype and Smoking: Effects on Iron Levels in Parkinson’s Disease
Status: Recruiting
Study area: Neurology
Principal investigator: Paola Costa-Mallen, PhD
Co-investigator(s): Yoshimi Anzai, MD, MPH; Harvey Checkoway, PhD; Shu-Ching Hu, MD
Funded by: NIH/National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke
Project period: 02/01/2013- 01/31/2015

[MattBaggins]

135. Yoyu used the term allopathic

Anything you sat will now be dismissed out of hand.


p.s. Bastyrd "university" is a joke.

[pnwmom]

138. No, I didn't use the term. Those words came directly from the University of Washington web site.

All the words from that page did.

[Johnny2X2X]

116. DU progress

It wasn't long ago that a thread like this on here would be full of misled people talking about the virtues of healing crystals or good vibe homeopathy. Now only a couple poor duped souls showed up.

Science and reason is one of the things that separates Liberal thought from Conservative, glad to see that is truer than ever here.

[HuckleB]

122. +1

[felix_numinous]

121. For profit hospitals and high cost

Last edited Sat Apr 30, 2016, 06:38 PM - Edit history (1)

combined with an astronomical hospital death rate have caused people to turn elsewhere for care. Every time a free clinic opens they are swamped with people needing care.

If you live on a good area of the country then bully for you, but in many parts of the country the standards are not so high. Short staffs and no unions have driven down working conditions in many places, MRSA is everywhere. They need unions and they need to stop running hospitals like businesses.

Combine this with the economic downturn and these will be the results. It's great to sit on a high horse ridiculing people for self treatment or self medication, it's become a sport for many people, but compassion is a much better approach to health care challenges than ridicule.

We can do better in this country, in making education healthcare and welfare a given. Perhaps then people would not only trust the system but would be more involved in it.

I know all of this has little to do with that child that drank onion juice, but since everyone else here wants to use this story to demonize the alternative health profession, I can provide context.

Medical services reflect the community they serve, even Johns Hopkins and NIH provide alternative medicine services, as do many integrative hospitals, demonstrating ways of regulating and exploring new ways to serve the public. Rather than demonizing all naturopaths in some kind of new witch hunt, it would be better to provide education.

Because if this new witch hunt, there have been many naturopaths and holistic doctors MURDERED, 29 poisoned on one count, so please be mindful when posting these stories. Yes they are upsetting, but the story is SO much more complex.

Peace~Felix

[HuckleB]

123. That's quite the conspiracy theory.

I know the Internet conspiracy nuts at Natural News, Collective Evolution, and David Wolfe have been pushing that nonsense, but, come on. It's time to stop believing in ludicrous nonsense.

No one is murdering the charlatans, at least not because of their scam promotion.

https://skeptoid.com/blog/2015/07/28/is-big-pharma-killing-holistic-doctors/

http://blackbag.gawker.com/the-bizarre-anti-vaxxer-holistic-doctor-murder-conspira-1721321305

[cleanhippie]

125. Seriously, where do you come up with this nonsense? ND's are being MURDERED? Seriously?

[HuckleB]

126. The usual CT sites. Funny thing is that the poster mixed up two different conspiracies.

The Murder Conspiracy
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2015/07/28/8-doctors-now-dead-holistic-alternative-authorities-point-to-murder-suicide-but-why/

The 29 Naturopaths Poisoned Conspiracy
http://www.davidwolfe.com/breaking-29-holistic-doctorspractitioners-found-poisoned-some-nearly-dead-another-attack-on-alternative-medicine/

[AlbertCat]

127. it would be better to provide education.

Yes! So patients won't be duped by "alternative " medicine and naturopaths and seek the real medicine they need.

[felix_numinous]

128. My point was education

ABOUT alternative medicine in medical schools and to the public, including apparently many of you here. It is very alienating to ridicule people's life work before examining it, all it does is create a rift while the answer is in integrating all knowledge together.

[HuckleB]

131. Integrating scams and debunked "treatment" helps no one.

And that appears to be your focus here.

[AlbertCat]

136. ABOUT alternative medicine in medical schools and to the public,

I know what your point was.

Yes, educate people about how fraudulent they are!

alternative medicine that actually works is called "medicine".

[HuckleB]

124. Unfortunately, this nonsense is invading actual learning centers, too.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/quackademia-update-2014/

Politics keeps beating up science, and it's not good for any of us. Well, I guess the money-grubbing naturopathic charlatans get something out of it.

And that doesn't address all the wasted research dollars to prove, yet again, that such and such treatment is invalid. The lack of ethics is astounding.

[Johnny2X2X]

130. Homeopathy is totally useless

Homeopathy (Listeni/ˌhoʊmiˈɒpəθi/) is a system of alternative medicine created in 1796 by Samuel Hahnemann, based on his doctrine of like cures like (similia similibus curentur), a claim that a substance that causes the symptoms of a disease in healthy people would cure similar symptoms in sick people.[1] Homeopathy is a pseudoscience – a belief that is incorrectly presented as scientific. Homeopathic preparations are not effective for treating any condition;[2][3][4][5] large-scale studies have found homeopathy to be no more effective than a placebo, suggesting that any positive feelings that follow treatment are only due to the placebo effect and normal recovery from illness.[6][7][8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

The peddlers of homeopathy are misled rubes at best and crooks a liars at worst.

[progressoid]

137. I can't believe I forgot to rec this before!

REC!

[laundry_queen]

139. Some misinformation in this article (but the parents are still fucking morons)

First of all, it's not THAT difficult to get in to see a doctor in Canada. So that whole paragraph in the article is total, absolute bullshit. Yes, it might be hard to find a 'family doctor' in some areas (I've lived in 4 different towns in 2 different provinces in the last 17 years and have never had an issue with it) but there are plenty of Medicentres and walk-in clinics to take up the slack if you are sick. And then there is always the ER. And it's all free (at the point of delivery.) So, no, there is NOT some huge rush to use naturopaths here in Canada because of some doctor shortage. jeezus fucking christ that is the dumbest shit ever. I'm 40, lived in Canada my entire life and talk about medical stuff with lots of people all the time, and I only know of ONE person who has even tried a naturopath. Trust me when I say there is no mass exodus to naturopaths. The very claim is 100% ridiculous on its face. The one person I know who went - it was my best friend's mom, and all my best friend did was talk about how much money her dumbass mom was spending on bullshit 'cures' that were 'exclusive' to their office. Eventually her mom stopped going. I don't know of anyone else who went, not even to 'try' and many supplemental insurance policies through employers here cover it.

Next, the naturopath in question in the story apparently told the parents to take their child to the ER. Yes, the naturopath was a total dumbass for providing some stupid tincture. They should've said, "Hell no, take your kid to the ER." not, "You should probably take him in. But here's a tincture anyway." So yes, they should be investigated, but I do think they tried to get the parents to take their kid in. IN this case the parents were the ultimate idiots. Their kid was too fucking stiff to put in a car seat and they didn't think that was cause for an emergency room visit? Hearing them speak about how he was 'alert' but couldn't bend his body? WTF was wrong with these people? If you read more articles about this, and look at some of the testimony, the parents were completely at fault here.

I'm a parent of 4, and I know it can be a tough call...when do you take them in, when do they really need to see a doctor, but these parents were TOTAL idiots and I'm really glad they were found guilty.

[HuckleB]

140. I was suffering from postpartum depression. My licensed naturopath recommended beer and marijuana ..

I was suffering from postpartum depression. My licensed naturopath recommended beer and marijuana to help me sleep.

http://www.naturopathicdiaries.com/marijuana-beer-for-sleep-with-postpartum-depression-naturopath/

[HuckleB]

141. Naturopath gets light reprimand for doping documentary involvement

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/naturopath-gets-light-reprimand-for-doping-documentary-involvement/article29781114/

In case anyone thought that quacks care about keeping things in line.

[Iggo]

142. I already don't. But I get what you're saying.

[HuckleB]

143. Naturopaths have no standard of care.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/is-there-a-naturopathic-standard-of-care/