And people wonder why I am dead-set against Chiropractic?

[Archae]

I've seen it advertised here in my own town also, they call it "Whole Family Chiropractic."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12314937

[hlthe2b]

1. Veterinary Boards have gone after them for doing so on small dogs & cats as well, not to mention

there is at least one school (Life Chiropractic in Marietta, GA) that preaches that chiropractic, not vaccines, "cured" polio and so brainwashes students not to vaccinate that there was an uptake in both human and canine vaccine-preventable disease among that population in the late 80s in Georgia.

Not to mention my still intense memory from childhood of my Mother's best friend's tragic death from an untreated heart attack. He had gone to a chiropractor with shooting pain down his left arm and shortness of breath... While even much of the lay public would have recognized those sx as possible MI, the chiropractor concluded he was merely in need of a cervical "adjustment". I will NEVER forget that and I don't think those kind of horror stories are all that rare.

I'd strongly suggest those who want that kind of treatment to go to an Osteopath, who like MD's are trained fully (and similarly credentialed) to practice medicine, but likewise specialize in musculoskeletal issues in a more holistic manner. Alternately, see a good orthopedist who likewise works closely with a good physical therapist.

I am definitely no fan of chiropractic.

[Aristus]

2. I have patients with back pain coming in all the time wanting a referral to a chiropractor.

I tell them how much I distrust chiropractic 'care', and refer them to whichever specialist is appropriate for their problem: physical therapy, orthopedic, or in rare cases, pain management. I tell them that the only time chiropractic care is in any way appropriate is if their spinal bones are out of alignment, which occurs much less frequently than many may imagine.

Although I have immense respect for emergency medicine providers and the difficult cases they deal with on a daily basis, their program for care after the patient is stabilized often leaves much to be desired.

I'll have patients following up on an ED visit for a motor vehicle accident tell me that they have were referred for a chiropractic evaluation. I'll look at their spinal imaging from the ED to check for malalignment, and see nothing that requires chiropractic manipulation, and usually something that can be addressed in clinic only, or with physical therapy. I usually get them to cancel the chiro evaluation, and get them into PT or with an orthopedist.

I don't want my patients spending ten years not getting better under the 'care' of someone who's just trying to make his Mercedes payments.

[longship]

5. The argument against chiropractic is that D D Palmer was wrong!

That should be sufficient to rid the world of such utter quackery. Unfortunately, there are too damned many idiots who believe in magic.

[1939]

7. I have used chiroprators and physical therapists

While for some people, PT might be the right thing in recovering from operations or the like, my experiences of PT are being told to do some exercises while they go drink coffee and chat with the rest of the staff. Periodically, they will look over their shoulder and yell, "you doing OK over there?"

[Aristus]

11. The difference in your case is the difference between protocol of care and standard of care.

Your physical therapist seemed to be happy doing the minimum to get by. I have to follow up with a lot of patients who have primary care providers who do the same thing. Things like throwing antibiotics at every infection that walks in the door, even though many of those infections are likely to be viral, not bacterial. Providers who throw opioid meds at every pain complaint, instead of trying to solve the underlying cause of the pain.

The difference here is that chiropractic care isn't always (or in my view, it is rarely) appropriate for complaints of back pain. But a lot of providers think: "Hmm Back pain. I can get this patient out of here with a quick chiropractic referral."

[HuckleB]

15. You had a poor PT.

The main difference is that the PT will usually be honest about the possibility for benefits from various treatments. The chiropractor will lie to you.

[1939]

38. I also had an unethical doctor

who was hitting up medicare for a fee everytime i went for "managing and monitoring PT". I told him i wasn't going to PT anymore and he got really pissed. I haven't been in his office since.

Chiropractors, you have to manage. if they tell you they are going to cure cancer, run the other way. If they give you an electrostim and move your back OK which is better than "take two Tylenol and see if it gets better".

[HuckleB]

39. Uh, unless they do something a PT would do, chiropractic is off the table.

And the problem is that chiropractic tends to be deceitful about the likely benefits, while a PT will usually tell you that the evidence base is X or slim. And sometimes it is slim, but at least you know, and the friggin' chiropractors will try to play head games instead.

[Archae]

51. And I have never seen a chiropractor who didn't sell supplements.

Lots of 'em.

[HuckleB]

54. Or band-AIDS sold to keep "pressure points."

[Xolodno]

3. I prefer my chiropractor to...

....the pain killers my doctor prescribes for my back pain.

With that being said, the article in the link you provided....that's just nuts. And its indicative of a profession that needs more regulation. My Chiropractor would probably be fuming at this as well, gives people like him a bad name.

And lets not forget, some doctors have done things to make a quick buck, like the whole carpal tunnel syndrome rage that happened awhile ago.

[Archae]

9. My brother-in-law would love to talk to you, about the "carpal tunnel rage."

He had an operation to correct it several years ago.

It was hardly a "fad" to him.
And it was very painful.

[Xolodno]

12. Probably was legit.

But there were many cases where it wasn't. Likewise, the vast majority of people probably don't need to see a Chiropractor. But for me, who was forced into the family roofing business at 13 and continued until I was able to bail and go to college...damage was already done.

[1939]

40. Doc told me i had "carpal tunnel" except i had numbness in the last two fingers

which don't go near the carpal tunnel. I had peripheral neuropathy.

[Archae]

6. Do you have a point?

[ronnie624]

10. Only the one that is obvious.

No offense intended.

[Archae]

13. Offense accepted.

The picture obviously suggests I'm "baiting" here.

[CountAllVotes]

8. Die-hard chiropractor fans

One of them died recently. She'd been going to one a couple of times a week and was told to not do it anymore. The reason was because a huge mass that was one-half the size of a lung was found in her lung and it was cancerous.

She was told that a chiropractor could harm her greatly as doing adjustments could move the tumor around and cause it to possibly burst so she quit going.

She died about two weeks ago.

Personally, a chiropractor (and yes, I've been to several) did me no good at all nor did it help the chronic pain problem that I live with.

[HuckleB]

14. Twenty Things Most Chiropractors Won’t Tell You

http://edzardernst.com/2013/10/twenty-things-most-chiropractors-wont-tell-you/

"1. Chiropractic theory and practice are not based on the body of knowledge related to health, disease, and health care that has been widely accepted by the scientific community.

Most chiropractors believe that spinal problems, which they call “subluxations,” cause ill health and that fixing them by “adjusting” the spine will promote and restore health. The extent of this belief varies from chiropractor to chiropractor. Some believe that subluxations are the primary cause of ill health; others consider them an underlying cause. Only a small percentage (including me) reject these notions and align their beliefs and practices with those of the science-based medical community. The ramifications and consequences of subluxation theory will be discussed in detail throughout this book.

...

4. Our legitimate scope is actually very narrow.

Appropriate chiropractic treatment is relevant only to a narrow range of ailments, nearly all related to musculoskeletal problems. But some chiropractors assert that they can influence the course of nearly everything. Some even offer adjustments to farm animals and family pets.

...

19. Don’t expect our licensing boards to protect you.

Many chiropractors who serve on chiropractic licensing boards harbor the same misbeliefs that are rampant among their colleagues. This means, for example, that most boards are unlikely to discipline chiropractors for diagnosing and treating imaginary “subluxations.”

..."

[Scuba]

16. No doubt there are unscrupulous chiropractors, just as there are unscrupulous MD's.

But not all, and some of our most respected medical centers offer chiropractic services ...

http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/chiropractic-adjustment/basics/definition/prc-20013239

http://www.gundersenhealth.org/neurosciences/back-and-neck-pain/chiropractic-care

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/services/wellness/integrative-medicine/treatments-services/chiropractic

[HuckleB]

17. Just because some medical centers offer something, doesn't make it right for them to do so.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/04/09/the-annals-of-quackademic-medicine-testi/

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chiropractic-a-summary-of-concerns/

http://edzardernst.com/2013/10/twenty-things-most-chiropractors-wont-tell-you/

[Scuba]

18. And just because one chiropractor is a quack doesn't mean all are.

[HuckleB]

20. Do you understand the basis for the whole "profession?"

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/chiropractic/

If so, then how can you say that?

The only things a chiropractor should be doing are also done by PTs. The rest is nonsense.

[Scuba]

21. Let's see, who should I trust? An anonymous internet poster or ...

http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/chiropractic-adjustment/basics/definition/prc-20013239

http://www.gundersenhealth.org/neurosciences/back-and-neck-pain/chiropractic-care

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/services/wellness/integrative-medicine/treatments-services/chiropractic

[HuckleB]

22. You can go with whatever you want to go.

It's your choice to utilize the fallacy of argument from authority instead of learning the actual underlying realities of the practice.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/chiropractic/

Or, if you would like to learn a lot more about how quackery invades actual health care:
http://sfsbm.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65&catid=13&Itemid=435

[Scuba]

23. I spent more than 30 years as a hospital administrator. I know a little about the topic.

[HuckleB]

24. It doesn't look like it to me.

It's fairly clear that you have not spent any time trying to understand the topic from an evidence base. Your only justification is that "they're using it." You have been given leads. Are you willing to challenge your beliefs, or will you just continue with blind faith? Though I doubt you will challenge yourself, since you just attempted to use the same logical fallacy already noted.

[Scuba]

27. Blind faith? Nope. Perhaps you should read the links you provided ...

Although obscured by controversy, there is evidence to indicate that spinal manipulation can be as effective as conventional treatment methods in relieving low-back pain.

...

... spinal manipulation used in the treatment of mechanical-type back pain has a plausible basis that makes it acceptable in mainstream healthcare. A good back-cracking back rub provided by a chiropractor or some other manual therapist can be a pleasurable, pain-relieving experience, and this can be a preferred method of treatment for some types of back pain.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chiropractic-a-summary-of-concerns/

[HuckleB]

33. Again, when they do what a PT does, as was already noted

You seem to want to pretend that all the rest doesn't exist.

Nice attempt to squirm out of the BS you're promoting.

Anyone who wants to be an ethical chiropractor should become a PT. Period.

BTW, the fact that you think that makes the rest of the content of that link go away is simply bizarre.

[Scuba]

35. Talk about blind!

[HuckleB]

36. ROFLMAO!!!

[Xolodno]

26. It's a lot like arguing with an anti-vaxxer.

To hell with the evidence, this web site says <insert a ton of bullshit>.

[Scuba]

28. They either don't read, or don't understand, the links they post ....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7797080

[HuckleB]

34. Again, you are completely misrepresenting what I've posted, and what you've posted.

In fact, your cherry picking tactic, which ignores that I've already acknowledged that the PT part is valid, rather shows that you are only offer logical fallacies up. It's really disingenuous.

[HuckleB]

32. The irony is rather rich with this.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chiropractic-pediatrics-firmly-in-the-anti-vaccination-camp/

[NuclearDem]

30. I think there needs to be some sort of distinction made here.

There's absolutely a problem with chiropractors serving as a patient's primary care physician, claiming to treat conditions their methods have not been demonstrated to treat, and being used instead of medication and surgery is a problem. That's absolutely fraudulent and should be avoided.

People who see a chiropractor on the side as a complementary treatment for back and neck pain is something else entirely. Hell, I see one on a monthly basis just to work the kinks out of my shoulders.

I don't imagine major medical centers offer referrals to the former.

[HuckleB]

37. Unfortunately, the quack parts of alt med are getting play in all too many places.

Any chiropractor who wants to do the ethical parts of the "chiropractic" should become a PT.

[1939]

42. Except that most PTs I have seen are incompetent

I have gotten better relief from a chiropractor. I use chiropractors judiciously. When i had a real back problem just before retirement, a chiropractor really helped me. I was moving and I asked him how to find a good chiropractor if I needed one.

He said:

1. Look for a chiropractor who works for himself in a single office. Multiple offices are bad and more than two in an office is bad.
Ideal is a solo practice.

2. If he talks about curing organic medical problems, run.

3. If he says you need an adjustment every month, run.

4. Make sure he does a lot of manipulations and not just give you "therapies". If he doesn't get a physical workout treating you, he isn't doing his job.

[HuckleB]

43. I don't buy it.

PTs know their stuff far better. Their education is far more focused on reality, so it's not wasted. They can explain the reality of the research for various treatments. That al it's never happens with a chiro. When you start your education with a basis in quackery, you're in trouble from the word go. PTs have to address the docs who refer, while chiro communication is typically nonexistent. I can go on and on, but no ethical chiro would become a chiro, and we have to start to recognize that.

[Cirque du So-What]

19. In the tiny town where I was born, a chiropractor set up practice

He somehow injured his finger and instead of getting stitches and taking antibiotics, he attemped some worthless cure which culminated in his death from sepsis - a victim of his own quackery.

[Orrex]

25. Here's another good reason

Chiropractic has an army of hyper-passionate supporters here on DU, who will tolerate nothing bad said about the profession. The two most consistent defenses that I've seen can be paraphrased as follows:

1. "A chiropractor helped my back/neck/sciatica when MDs wanted to cut me open or give me drugs."

2. "Oh yeah? You're telling me there's no such thing as a dishonest MD?"

Objection #1 fails because it's anecdotal with minimal empirical support nor any way to control for the vast range of factors affecting individual cases.

Objection #2 fails because no one attacks a fraudulent MD more aggressively than other MDs, because they recognize that the fraud tarnishes their profession and exposes people to serious risk of harm.

But fans of pseudoscience almost never criticize other practitioners of pseudoscience, and on the very rare occasion that they do so, they do it from a position of science.

[progressoid]

31. Yep.

I saw one of those posters once. Had to do a job in a chiro's office and he had one of those on the wall in the waiting room.

Quack.

[gollygee]

29. I ended up replying in the other thread

But I'm really freaked out by that video. My older daughter (now 14) had colic and it is a horrible thing. You're desperate to get relief for your baby. I had friends tell me that a chiropractor could help, but I had taken their suggestions to go to a chiropractor for my migraine headaches (didn't help) and I didn't feel comfortable with that being done to my baby, and I was super skeptical after my experience. (I was skeptical even before I did it, but I figured it was worth a shot - if you've ever suffered from chronic pain, you know you'll try anything once.) But no way would I do that with a baby. I did take a baby massage class and that seemed to help. It didn't hurt anyway and she loved the baby massage regardless.

[pnwmom]

41. If an MD had a malpractice case would that make you dead-set against all MD's?

My father had a problem with his back that gave him sciatica, and the chiropractor was the only one who was finally able to help him. With treatments a few times a year he was able to avoid the pain medicine that the MD wanted to prescribe.

I don't think chiropractors should be treating babies or anyone with cancer or a contagious illness. But for muscle and joint related problems they can often be very helpful.

[HuckleB]

44. Sciatica usually only improves on its own, over time.

At least the PT would have been honest, telling your father that there is no evidence that said treatments will help vs. simple time. Instead the chiro scam earned itself another easy victim.

[pnwmom]

47. I also saw an Osteopath instantly fix one of my children, whose spine came out

of alignment during a basketball game.

They sent him to the doctor because he was having severe chest pain. The only doctor available happened to be an Osteopath. After examining him, he asked my son a couple questions, and then did a couple quick things and my son's relief was instant and complete.

He explained that my son's pain was referred back pain, not chest pain; and that he had been growing so fast that his muscles weren't strong enough yet to hold his spine in place, and he also gave my son some exercises to do and told him what to do next time it came out of alignment. (And the procedures worked the other two times it happened.)

I said that what he had done looked like a chiropractic adjustment, and he agreed that it did. He said that chiropractors had borrowed the techniques from osteopaths.

Our insurers in WA recognize that these treatments are helpful in the right situations and they pay for both Osteopaths and chiropractors.

[HuckleB]

48. And more anecdotes.

None of which prove anything but your willingness to believe in anecdotes.

I appreciate the confessions, however.

[pnwmom]

49. I trusted my doctor, who partnered with the osteopath, and witnessed the results

with my own eyes. Which I do trust.

My son's relief was as complete and immediate as another child's relief when a doctor put his elbow back into his socket; or when my father jiggled his own shoulder back into its socket. I didn't need a research study to prove to me that my son, who was shaking in pain one moment, and completely himself the next, had been helped by the "spinal adjustment."

Here is info from the WHO.

http://www.who.int/medicines/areas/traditional/Chiro-Guidelines.pdf

[HuckleB]

53. Thanks for the continued anecdote and the cherry picked link.

I will keep those in mind, but not because of the reasons you would like.

[pnwmom]

56. The World Health Organization. A "cherry picked link."

[HuckleB]

57. So you believe everything the WHO says.

Thank you.

Thus, GMOs are safe.

[pnwmom]

58. Unlike you, I avoid broad, sweeping, black and white statements.

Such as all "GMO's are safe" or all "chiropractic treatments are worthless."

But I realize you engage in mostly binary thinking.

[HuckleB]

62. Hogwash.

Unlike you, I don't put words in the mouths of others.

You do, however, have a history of going with scams over science.

[U4ikLefty]

67. SCIENCE!!!

Why do these people hate my precious?

[HuckleB]

70. Derp.

I'm sorry you have nothing to offer the discussion.

[uppityperson]

76. That is way too simplistic. There are multiple reasons and areas of the sciatic nerve that can

cause siatica. Sometimes it does improve over time by itself, other times it does not. Is the nerve inflamed, irritated, because of overuse, or spasming muscles? What muscles? Is your pelvis not aligned properly? Why? Do you have lordosis? How are your iliopsoas? Is there a bulging disc? Have you had hip replacement? Do the simple sciatic stretches help your piriformis decrease spasming and stretch out? Do you need surgery on your disc or are your vertebrae rubbing on each other?

It can be temporary, or permanent. It can have a simple cause or have a bunch of stuff contributing.

I have known too many scamming chiropractors, and refuse to refer to them. I've known a couple decent ones who understand their scope of practice and what they are actually capable of helping with and when to refer out and to whom.

[HuckleB]

77. It is, and it isn't.

Surgery vs. doing nothing vs. doing PT and the stretches is fairly equivalent in terms of benefits over time, even when there is an issue such as a bulging disc.

Any chiropractor who is "ethical" shouldn't have gone to chiropractor school.

[uppityperson]

78. Huh, promoting untrained chiropracty? Weird.

[HuckleB]

79. Yeah, that's not the point.

There should be no such thing. If they want to do the ethical parts of chiropractic, then become PTs.

[kentauros]

45. No, I don't wonder that at all.

You are one of DU's septics, after all.

[HuckleB]

46. So you think scams are cool?

[Skittles]

55. septic

sep·tic
ˈseptik/
adjective
adjective: septic

1.
(chiefly of a wound or a part of the body) infected with bacteria.
synonyms: infected, festering, suppurating, pus-filled, putrid, putrefying, poisoned, diseased; purulent
"a septic finger"
2.
denoting a drainage system incorporating a septic tank.

nounNorth American
noun: septic; plural noun: septics

1.
a drainage system incorporating a septic tank.

[kentauros]

60. Go deeper

to the etymology

septic (adj.)
c. 1600, from Latin septicus "of or pertaining to putrefaction," from Greek septikos "characterized by putrefaction," from sepein "make rotten or putrid, cause to rot" (see sepsis). Septic tank is attested from 1902.

Septic is appropriate. Especially with regards to the countering reply to their "Don't open your mind so much that your brains fall out" of "Don't close your mind so much that it stops working. A closed mind is a rotting mind."

[Skittles]

61. septic as a noun?

[kentauros]

64. It's a play on words.

Some might even see it as a misspelling (and have, in the past when I've used it.)

That is, it's my particular insult to the skeptics and sceptics on DU when they insist on using the word "woo" and on being condescending assholes

[Skittles]

66. ahhhhhhhh

I am being a maroon

[kentauros]

68. No, you're not.

It's an in-joke I've had for a couple of years now. Most people think I did a typo until I explain it

[panader0]

50. I spent over forty years as a bricklayer.

I've thrown my back out several times--a pain so great from my lower back that I could barely get up.
I went to my chiropractor and he would adjust my back. It usually took about 15 minutes.
I would be totally fine for a long time, maybe a year or more, until I lifted wrong again. Then he'd fix
me up again in no time. I could feel where the spine was out with my hands. My experience with chiropractic
has been very positive and I would recommend it to anyone before some surgery. Everyone I know, and I worked construction,
who had back surgery was done working.

[longship]

52. What the fuck are subluxations?

First, chiropractors must answer that question. Plus, describe the biological basis for subluxation.

It is very simple. They cannot do that because it is all made up bullshit!

D D Palmer was a quack! Chiropractic is abject quackery.

[riderinthestorm]

59. There are sport horses in my barn who get definitive relief from the veterinary chiropractic work.

They can't manufacture a placebo effect.

They're obviously distressed at the saddle being placed on their back pre-appointment. The vet works on the horse with chiro adjustments and then you can put the saddle on without any fuss.

Chronically crooked into fences?

Chiropractic and they can jump more freely and straight.

Trouble picking up the right lead canter?

Chiropractic.



My husband is a pro athlete/rider - very attuned to his body and knows exactly when he's become "unbalanced". His hips have a chronic tendency to get "locked" with a twist to the left which manifests itself with chronic soreness in L2, L3 in every horse he rides. His chiropractor always gives him relief and straightens his body out.

In fact, I don't know a single pro rider who doesn't use chiro regularly.

That said, babies and children should never be adjusted imo. They can't properly articulate their symptoms.

[HuckleB]

63. Yes, they can.

Oh, you thought they didn't have limbic systems?

Whoops.

[riderinthestorm]

65. They either get relief or not. The placebo effect is moot.

I've seen real results from chiro.

And acupuncture and massage therapy.from licensed vets.

[HuckleB]

69. Not true.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/is-there-a-placebo-effect-for-animals/

[riderinthestorm]

71. David Ramey is not credible. The AVMA has approved chiro, acupuncture and PT as effective

(The American Veterinary Medical Association is the equivalent of the AMA for humans).

I trust my vets and the AVMA, plus I trust the pros that ride the horses, not an outlier vet with a struggling practice.

[HuckleB]

72. Quack treatments invade many places, but it doesn't make them worthy.

There is plenty of quack nonsense sold in every vet's office. They are just making money off of fools. And your decision to ignore the understanding of the placebo effect is just bizarre. Acupuncture is one of the worst jokes on humanity every. Using on animals is ludicrous.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-doesnt-work/

But whatever. Waste your money, if you want.

[HuckleB]

74. More...

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/05/alternative_medicine_for_pets_veterinarians_should_not_perform_acupuncture.html

[HuckleB]

73. The Crack Heard Round the World

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-crack-heard-round-the-world/

"In January, Melbourne chiropractor Ian Rossborough uploaded a video to YouTube of himself treating a 4-day-old premature infant. The video, one of many that can be found on his “Chiropractic Excellence” channel, is for educational purposes only, intended to teach the world about the miraculous benefits of chiropractic care for a wide variety of conditions. Although the cynical among us may proclaim that his videos are just more examples of chiropractic practice building shenanigans, Rossborough claims that he simply wants to “enable natural healthy living, without resorting to drugs or surgery.”

Australian physicians respond

Well, there are apparently a lot of angry and cynical Australians, particularly journalists and physicians. In late April, the video, which features Rossborough manipulating the newborn’s thoracic spine hard enough to cause a loud cracking sound and a cry of pain went viral after it was featured in a story on Australian Broadcasting Corporation Radio National. Rossborough, and the treatment of children by chiropractors, has since come under intense scrutiny.

According to the Australian press, “doctors have declared war on chiropractors” in response to the realization that newborns and young infants are undergoing unnecessary spinal manipulation for problems such as colic, acid reflux, and excessive crying as well as for nebulous benefits like boosting the immune system and improved growth and development. The Royal Australian College of General Practitioners, the largest medical college in Australia with a membership of over 30,000 rural and urban primary care physicians, has even requested that members refrain from referring patients to chiropractors. They want the federal government and private insurers to stop paying for nonsense such as infant chiropractic.

Frank Jones MD, president of the RACGP, has made the media rounds, describing infant and toddler adjustments as “seemingly almost cruel” and lacking any supporting evidence. He has also called for the Chiropractic Board of Australia to shape up in order to have any chance of being accepted as a legitimate scientific discipline. Jones thinks that chiropractors like Rossborough and his ilk don’t know what they are doing and are putting patients at risk. He reminds the public that a physician’s job is to advocate for patients and to try to reduce exposure to practices where the risk far exceeds any potential benefit. I like this guy.

..."

[closeupready]

75. Post #4, x100. Why many here refuse to engage you any longer.

Peace.