If having an affair made you a terrible president...

[nolabear]

We'd never have made it as a country.

It's strange that Americans and American politicians and media are so paralyzed by Trump's howling about Bill Clinton, pretending that he alone did something nearly half the presidents are known to have done. Imo any mature society would roll its eyes, say whatever they'd say about people and their consciences and families and gods and, however you might feel about it, approach it from a "keep an eye out for state secrets and don't expect us to keep your privacy" aspect so blackmail is impossible, and let the wives do what they will in the domestic realm. Don't act as though it disqualifies you to be president.

http://allday.com/post/4030-infidelity-in-the-white-house-us-presidents-and-their-many-mistresses/

[Squinch]

1. This is true, but the argument is more insidious and ridiculous. The argument is that if your

SPOUSE was unfaithful, you will be a terrible president.

[nolabear]

8. True dat. And it's doubly stupid for all that. But this was easier to provide a link for.

I'm in a mood. That fuckweasel was too close for comfort yesterday being here in WA and it galled me to see him being supported.

[Silver_Witch]

53. You really shouldn't refer to President Clinton as a fuckweasel.

It is rude and you know fuck is a scary word for most Clinton supporters you will make them cry. Or you will scare them so they have to go hide!

[moriah]

61. I thought the fuckweasel in question was Trump.

Okay, whatever...

[pnwmom]

24. Yes! nt

[graegoyle]

43. An even worse implication:

Because Hillary stayed with her husband after the affair, she is just a political opportunist. Never you mind your pretty little head that Republican women--and others--stay with creating spouses all the time for various and sundry reasons.

And if your name is Gingrich, you marry the woman you cheated on your wife with...TWICE.

[Squinch]

49. And if you are Gingrich, you leave your wife while she is fighting cancer to marry that woman.

[graegoyle]

77. My understanding is...

Gingrich served his wife divorce papers while she was in the hospital. I'm not going to bother looking up if she was the wife he was cheating on during the "impeachment" bullshit or if it was another of his betrayed wives.


But, it's Hillary who has questionable morals, right? So much crap.

[Squinch]

78. Oh, shoot, you're probably right! Who can keep the wives he's cheated on straight!

[HassleCat]

2. Depends on the spin.

I think it's funny, although hypocritical, when the man does the "I'm so ashamed!" thing. He's not ashamed, and he will continue to do the same thing. I'm not talking only about Bill Clinton. We have Elliot Spitzer, a whole host of evangelist preachers, that guy who said he was hiking the AT, and so on. If we want to adopt the European attitude toward extramarital affairs, then let's do it. The next time somebody gets caught, he (or maybe she) will say, "None of your beeswax. I'm doing my job as a US Senator, and that's the end if it." I won't hold my breath waiting for this to happen.

[nolabear]

9. I do too. I won't say he'd continue because I don't know him, but yes, it's silly.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

33. Anybody else remember Francois Mitterand's funeral?

Anybody else?

State funeral for the president of France. Widow and children walk in the procession. Mistress and child walk in the procession too. Nobody blinks an eye. They just shrug and assume it's okay for a politician to have a girlfriend on the side and children.

A blow job does not a Constitutional crisis make. It's between Bill & Hillary.

If we want to cite presidents having affairs, we can have Thomas Jefferson and his slaves, Lincoln's rumors of being gay and having all-male parties with generals at the White House, Grover Cleveland's illegitimate child "Ma, ma, where's my Pa? Gone to the White House, ha ha ha!"; Warren G. Harding as a senator and as president (Nan Britton); Roosevelt (Missy LeHand and another secretary--he had lots of groupies); Dwight Eisenhower --Kay Summersby, his jeep driver, and Oveta Culp Hobby of the Texas Hobbys who owned the Houston Post. She was made head of the Women's Air Corps, basically supervised by Hap Arnold, and Jacqueline Cochran said, "I will not take orders from a woman who doesn't know her ass from a propeller." John F. Kennedy (Too many to mention); Lyndon Johnson (no names known); George H.W. Bush (Secretary named Jennifer); Nelson Rockefeller as Vice President "died in the saddle" while getting it on with his "art assistant" Megan Marshack. That's everybody I can think of off the top of my head up until Bill Clinton and I"m sure there are more.

[nolabear]

66. Exactly. Thanks for even more of a run-down.

[Wilms]

3. That's not what made Clinton a terrible President.

[nolabear]

10. That's beside every point I was making but thanks for playing.

[Wilms]

16. It's the subject line of your OP.

[nolabear]

22. Yeah, okay. Point taken.

[riderinthestorm]

4. It's not so much the affairs, it's the boss screwing subordinates

Much different dynamic and one that this feminist has a big problem with.

[Divernan]

5. Most powerful man in free world is helpless victim of 23 year old intern!

Hill's solution? Create the Bimbo Squad! Here they come to save the day!

Really not comparable to European politicians who may have a long-term mistress and the class to keep her out of the spotlight so as not to humiliate his spouse.

[pnwmom]

28. Hillary didn't hurt anyone. Monica and Bill hurt her. n/t

[Dorian Gray]

68. I think they're all responsible for their own actions

Monica was an adult and made a stupid choice to give oral sex to the president.

Bill was stupid and went for it, and the lines between president using his position of power for a quickie with an intern is questionable judgment. But, yes, he cheated, too.

Hillary could have remained quiet, but she was so intent on protection their political dynasty that she attacked everyone surrounding the issue except her own political and personal partner.

[pnwmom]

69. She did remain quiet. She publicly attacked no one. If you think otherwise, where's your link? n/t

[Dorian Gray]

71. She famously

called her "a narcissistic loony toon."

It was all about the Right Wing Conspiracy back then, not a husband using REALLY BAD judgment.

That irked.

Pnwmom, I'm a supporter of Hillary. I will vote for her. But back in the 90s, she did publicly blame everyone else surrounding the affair OTHER than him.

[pnwmom]

74. She didn't say that publicly. She wrote it in an email to her friend and she didn't

know that someone was going to submit a FOIA request and go through her emails and make that public.

By the way, Monica Lewinsky said in her Vanity Fair interview that she thought that was a mild thing for Hillary to say.

And in the 90's, she didn't go around blaming other people, other than to say she believed her husband -- till he finally had to acknowledge his relationship with Monica.

I don't think it is fair to condemn a wife because she didn't take a public stance against her husband -- which is what some people here seem to think she should have done. But she really didn't go around condemning these women, other than to say she trusted her husband. Which was obviously a mistake.

[OilemFirchen]

7. FDR boinked Eleanor's social secretary.

Other than that, he was basically a family man.

[Squinch]

51. No, he also slept with Lucy. I think she was HIS secretary. (In addition to Eleanor's secretary.)

[nolabear]

12. This feminist believes that a consensual affair is consensual.

Mind you I think power differentials are a problem but if you're talking Monica she has said she initiated, she wanted, and she is dealing with the fallout, actually pretty maturely as it turns out after all these years.

Personally I think the man was an idiot for doing it and the cheating is odious, but that's a personal opinion and it hardly crosses into new presidential territory. All that pearl clutching is what gets to me.

[Scootaloo]

30. So power differential is a problem except for this one place where you do not want it to be

Odd sort of standard, but okay.

[Fairgo]

40. His serial predation

of females in subordinate positions does not make him a bad president. It makes him a sexual predator. His neoliberal policy made him a bad president.

[Scootaloo]

41. I wouldn't call him a predator, either

Sexual predation involves coercion. From all appearances, Bill and Monica were consensual. However the power dynamic made it extremely unprofessional, and set the stage for what could have become a coercive relationship. It certainly led to the public destruction of Monica Lewinsky. Simply put, Bill should have had the professional respect (and personal good sense) to turn her down. If college professors all across the world can turn down the advances of their students, I'm sure the President can refuse an intern.

You're right though, in that it's really one of the smaller parcels in his baggage compartment. It does reflect a recurring character problem of his, that overwhelming sense of entitlement he carries around even to this day, when he's shouting that BLM "supports rapists and murderers"

[nolabear]

67. Unprofessional and ill advised and stupid, yes. But not a simple, back and white issue.

Upthread you mistook me for thinking that he was an exception, but it's the opposite. I think he does what many if not most people who have unwise affairs do; compartmentalize their feelings, justify the absurd and do what they want. And at the same time in other areas they can be good leaders and smart people. We have a bad habit of confounding all those things.

[pnwmom]

25. Not "subordinates." Only one. And in the 90's there was very little concern

about the power dynamics, IF the woman felt it was consensual -- which Monica to this day, as a middle aged woman, still insists that it was.

So it's not really fair to judge him on a standard that was not generally accepted at the time.

[MH1]

29. Excellent points.

I would agree that the troublesome aspect is the power differential but your points are true.

Clinton's relationship with Monica was a whole different thing than Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill.

[scscholar]

60. Which was never proven...

never proven.

[Ghost in the Machine]

6. If it doesn't affect your job performance, it's NOT OUR BUSINESS. Period. It does NOT make you a bad

President, it makes you a bad husband and, if you have kids, a bad role model for your kids.

I read somewhere a long time ago that George Washington had several children with some of his slaves and that was another reason he had the nickname "The Father of our Country". The same article said that he caught the pneumonia that he eventually died from because he had to sneak out of a woman's house half naked, in freezing rain, when her husband came home early. I don't know how true it is, and don't really care, but thought it was worth a mention in the context of this post.

If anyone wants to look it up, feel free to. I am fixing to go out and mow the lawn before it gets too hot. If I HAVE to, I will see what I can find when I get done.

Peace!

Ghost

[nolabear]

13. And, you know, slaves.

Mowing is a pain but man, it's nice that it's getting near summer!

[Ghost in the Machine]

50. Yes, the mowing is a real, literal, pain... but I have to do it. I am glad warmer weather is

finally upon us, too. The past 6 weeks have been pure hell on everyone around here! It would be in the high 70's to low 80's one day, then in the 40's to 50's the next day. We actually have a saying here... "If you don't like the weather in Tennessee, just wait a little while and it'll change!"

As for the mowing, I have close to 4 acres to mow... 7 when I do my dad's yard, too... and I have a bad back and neck (been broken, plus multiple surgeries) that gets so sore it's all I can do to get off of the mower and into the house to lay down when I am done. My only saving grace is that I have a 54 inch mowing deck, so I get a good swipe with each pass. It sure beats the time when I only had a 36 inch deck, and took a couple of hours off the mowing time.

I have been done for about 4 1/2 hours now and have been laying down since. I am still a little sore, but at least I can move now!

Back to the main topic of my reply.... a LOT of slave owners "took liberties" (RAPED) their female slaves, and had children with them. This is an historical fact, though I DID state that I didn't know how true the story about Washington is, but I DO know that I read it long before I had "the internet". I didn't get my first computer until July of 1999...

Peace,

Ghost

[Gman]

11. All the women were paid by the right wing for their stories

Therefore none have credibility.

[whereisjustice]

14. Hillary seems to be having an affair with Wall Street... I think that matters.

[nolabear]

15. This isn't what this thread is about, but thanks for playing.

[Skittles]

47. they are going off the rails now

yes indeed

[tavernier]

18. And the special at the diner is pancakes.

My sentence makes as much sense to this topic as yours.

[thereismore]

17. No, affairs don't disqualify you. Affairs with underlings do. Lying to the people does. nt

[Squinch]

21. You mean like the way JFK and FDR and countless others did?

[thereismore]

42. I don't know enough about them and countless others, sorry. nt

[Squinch]

48. Well, you should learn. Because you just said that most US Presidents were disqualified.

Which is obviously untrue.

[pnwmom]

26. In the 90's the idea wasn't yet generally accepted that power dynamics precluded a consensual

relationship between a boss and a subordinate. And Monica even today insists that their relations were consensual.

[Scootaloo]

32. I don't know what 90's you were living in

The 1890's perhaps? 'Cause that was a little bit before Bill's time, too.

[pnwmom]

36. The 1990's. The decade where all the men in Congress turned a blind eye to Anita Hill. n/t

[Scootaloo]

37. Power dynamics in relationships were well-recognized in the 1990's

It's why the business world strongly discouraged workplace dating, especially between management and underlings. It's why universities have rules against faculty dating students. It's why Bill's affair with Monica became a big fucking deal.

You're trying to change reality in order to argue that Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky were in a relationship of equal power, in order to make Bill Clinton look good.

[pnwmom]

38. No, it wasn't. The Lewinsky case was the beginning of most people thinking about that, just as the

Anita Hill case made people much more aware of sexual harassment in general.

Ever hear of Bill Gates and Melinda? They married in 1994. She was his subordinate when they became involved. No one criticized them or most people involved in similar relationships, as long as the subordinate felt that it was consensual.

[Scootaloo]

39. Maybe it's the first time you thought of it

But power dynamics in relationships were most certainly not "uncharted territory" in 1998.

[pnwmom]

57. Link, please. I can't provide one because that would mean proving a negative

But you should be able to show me the articles in the 90's showing there was a consensus on this.

[Silver_Witch]

54. I don't know where you were in the 1990's but most women thought about it a lot.

Every time a man made an advance or touched where he shouldn't. President Clinton is no different than all those men.

And here you stand and say "well boys will be boys" and that is how it was wayyy baccckk them.

It was wrong then and it is wrong now!

So sad you can't see that.

[pnwmom]

56. Monica Lewinsky has publicly stated that she went after him and that it was entirely consensual.

It wasn't harassment in her case and it wasn't proven in any other case, either.

[TeamPooka]

44. and the GOP Speaker of the House who impeached Clinton turned out to be a pedophile. nt

[pnwmom]

45. And every other man at the core of that was having some sort of non-marital affair. nt

[pnwmom]

55. It never did before Bill. And Hillary didn't have an affair with anyone. n/t

[abelenkpe]

59. It was the lying.

Don't care about the affair.

[kskiska]

19. Trump's spouse was unfaithful

He divorced Marla Maples after she had an affair with a bodyguard under a lifeguard shack in Florida.

[gwheezie]

31. Ivana and Marla had a fight over the Donald in public

He brought his mistress to Aspen when he was there celebrating Valentine's day with his wife.

[Nye Bevan]

23. I wonder what the DU bluenoses would have said about JFK's many affairs? (nt)

[Scootaloo]

35. I dunno, but it looks like many would say he was victimized by Marylin, the poor man

[gwheezie]

27. Trump invited his mistress to Aspen along with his then wife

He was seen at social functions with both Marla and ivana. Marla and ivana had a physical fight over trump in Aspen. He apparently isn't worried going after bill will hurt him I don't know why.

[procon]

34. Trump couldn't care less about Bill Clint's affair.

He's that same womanizing kinda guy, and he's fine with it because men -- especially powerful men -- can do that stuff and get away with it. Trump is using Bill as a way to prick (pun intended) Hillary, it's the Death by a Thousand Cuts,and he will continue to jab at her because he thinks that this stuff will hurt her at some deep personal level.

Remember, he's a vindictive little man, and he likes punching women below the belt.

[Skittles]

46. the only people he is scoring points with already have an irrational hatred of all things Clinton

so it really is not a good strategy

[Dorian Gray]

70. This is true!

[Silver_Witch]

52. This is 2016!

Things have changed since the olden day when men could rape, fuck or abuse any woman they wanted and get away with it. It is now a time when MEN have to be responsible for their behavior and they can not longer sexually harass women.

You do know that right? It is no longer legal to own humans either...things have changed. Women can vote and don't have to tolerate a man that cheats on them...things have changed.

Women are no longer depend on men to bread home the money and no longer have to just stand by and watch their husbands cheat...things have changed.

Women can have jobs, credit cars and inherit property and hold it in their own name....times have changed.

Gay men and women can marry and have children and love just like straight people...times have changed.

And more importantly the American people don't have to tolerate being lied to on National TV by their President over something so petty that lying was not needed. President Clinton should have just gotten on TV and said what he did...but he preferred to lie and wag his finger.

[pnwmom]

58. Uh-huh. And in 2016 we shouldn't be blaming wives for things their husbands do. n/t

[dr60omg]

62. The affair is not relevant lying under oath is

And having yourself permanently removed from the bar is too ...
Standing by your man is your own choice BUT you cannot say victims of harassment abuse and power relations ought to all be listened to while concurrently insulting those who survived your husband's parsing lying and games

[nolabear]

65. That's a reasonable point, though I wouldn't consider it disqualifying.

I'm not defending anything for what it is. I don't think the fact that presidents philander is news though, and it's an interesting thing to note that it's not at all unusual, in spite of considerable spinning.

[BillZBubb]

63. Geez, this Hillbot nonsense is pathetic. Monica wasn't the only one.

You all have the convenient amnesia of conservatives.

Ms. Willey, Ms. Broadderick, and Ms. Jones weren't partners in any consensual sexual situations. They were all objectified and sexually harassed by Bill Clinton. Then, the Clinton machine slimed them all. And many so called "feminist" Democrats were frothing at the mouth to slime the victims. They still are.

Read Ms. Broadderick's story. Then come back and tell me how Clinton was like every other president. And no, Juanita Broadderick wasn't some right winger with an axe to grind. She was a long time Democratic party member and activist.

You Hillbots make me sick.

[nolabear]

64. Don't you DARE refer to me as a Hillbot. Either make your case or don't but I won't be insulted.

[randome]

72. Bill Clinton isn't running for office. What a dumb thing to say.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Where do uncaptured mouse clicks go?[/center][/font][hr]

[alarimer]

75. No, being a serial philanderer makes you a terrible human being.

Being a terrible president makes you a terrible president.

Bill Clinton is a jackass of the highest order. He is responsible for: escalating the drug war beyond all reason, the school-to-prison pipeline, welfare "reform", NAFTA and its attendant job losses (both here and in Mexico), etc. That is what makes him a terrible president. That triangulating, third-way bullshit that the Democratic Party is apparently stuck with.

[clarice]

79. Wasn't it more an issue of lying under oath? Seems so long ago.nt