General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsJeff Corwin: "Zoos are not your babysitter."
http://www.myfoxboston.com/news/animal-expert-jeff-corwin-zoos-arent-your-baby-sitter/312006114Zoos arent your babysitter, he said. Take a break from the cell phone, the selfie stick and the texting. Connect with your children. Be responsible for your children. I dont think this happened in seconds or minutes. I think this took time for this kid, this little boy to find himself in that situation. Ultimately its the gorilla thats paid this price.
avebury
(10,952 posts)In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)For the magnificent Silverback Harambe ...
BuelahWitch
(9,083 posts)Another for Harambe
RandySF
(58,915 posts)I'm ready to start shoving selfie-sticks in places where the sun doesn't shine.
840high
(17,196 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)linuxman
(2,337 posts)I don't think it was designed with giving a child unlimited time to make their way in due to a criminally negligent parent in mind.
Oh well. The gorilla had to pay the price, though millions of others seem to have made it through unscathed.
wallyworld2
(375 posts)the cages have been secure enough in the past so don't up date them?
I've been watching a series of why planes crash.
The first thing the NTBS did was to investigate a plane crash and when they discovered the reason for the crash.
They issue a statement saying, we have discovered the flaw that caused the crash and have issued a statement to all airlines that this flaw has only caused one plane to crash in 38 years so you don't have to worry about it.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)But I don't blame the zoo for not doing anything about it before today.
linuxman
(2,337 posts)in an incident being caused on its own by an inherent flaw which occurs independent of meddling (faulty wire coatings causing a short, improper metals cracking under stress), and someone deliberately circumventing a safety fearure, thereby creating an incident?
If a gun has a safety, but the user goes out of their way to not use it and causes their own injury, there isn't a flaw in the gun. Everything on earth is designed with a reasonable expectation of human competence and self preservation in mind. The gorilla enclosure was designed with the reasonable belief that a mother wouldn't let her kid run off unattended in a park full of deadly animals. Same shit.
We wouldn't ground a fleet of planes because someone allowed their kid to run over and pop the escape hatch over the atlantic either.
stone space
(6,498 posts)And the safety turns out not to be child-proof?
Then it's not so safe, is it?
Shall we blame the mother for not having her kid on a leash?
Or shall we require safeties on guns to be child-proof?
linuxman
(2,337 posts)Just like the gorilla incident.
You wouldn't yell at the Crayola company when Timmy stabs his eye out with safety scissors while mom was in lala land, crying "but they were supposed to be safe!".
She saw a barrier, assumed nothing bad in the world could happen, and left the parenting to the zoo.
No need for a leash. Just basic situational awareness and parenting.
It worked fine for 40 previous years of parents and kids.
stone space
(6,498 posts)Yeah, it's the parents' fault.
Kid should have been on a leash!
linuxman
(2,337 posts)Again, since you can't seem to follow, that's an adult's fault as well.
I don't think anyone here mentioned it being a child's fault, but bravo for fabricating an argument nobody made.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)Unless the parent is actually watching them with all three eyes! (My mother had an eye in the back of her head. She told me that all mothers do.)
Aerows
(39,961 posts)or to not be aware of a young child if they have a pool in the backyard.
Is it tragic when an accident occurs? Hell yes it is. Is every accident preventable? Unfortunately, no, many are not.
I think the gun is probably not the best analogy. This was more of a case of a parent that failed to keep tabs on their child in a public place.
Everybody makes mistakes, though, and none of us are perfect. This isn't like the parents that lock their kids in the car and go shopping for several hours level of negligence.
Did the child get away or get lost in the crowd? Hell, I got lost in Disney World coming out of "It's a Small World" when I was 6. It took about 5 minutes for them to find me - I probably just got distracted by something.
classykaren
(769 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I do not know of an airport, shopping mall, amusement park, etc. which does not have a place to reunite parents and children who have been separated.
Anyone who designs a facility for the public on the assumption that children and parents will uniformly stay together has not done much living in the actual world.
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)At what point to we hold the parents accountable for neglect. Small children, when parents are not paying attention, want to explore the world around them. They do not have any clue that the critters they see in zoos are dangerous. If anything they probably see cartoon versions of those animals on TV and think 'I want to play with them'.
I am glad the child is safe but the Orangutan died because of neglectful parents who were so focused on themselves that they didn't see their child managed to break into the pen. And like the previous poster said - 38 years and 44M+ visitors safely visited that cage but then again they probably also paid attention to their small children too.
FlaGranny
(8,361 posts)when he was a little guy he had absolutely no fear of anything. I actually wished I had a leash on him many times. I had to watch him like a hawk as he would go anywhere or do anything. At the age of 3 he climbed a 12-foot monkey bar when my attention was elsewhere for 3 seconds. He fell and broke his collar bone, all in the blink of an eye. When in any dangerous situation I had to hold him or hang onto his hand for dear life. He was not easy to hold. He was like dragging a sack of potatoes. My daughter was just the opposite and would never get herself into a dangerous situation. She would come running if her brother did. You've got to know your kid. My son was the type who could have gotten into a situation like that, but soon after he learned to walk I learned he could not be trusted to stay safe. It was a relief when he got old enough to learn how to stay safe.
gregcrawford
(2,382 posts)... so keep your malice to yourself until the facts are revealed. One irrefutable fact HAS been revealed: The Cincinnati Zoo did NOT conform to current standards for barriers.
linuxman
(2,337 posts)that one of two things happened.
A: She neglected to watch her child while at the zoo as he entered the enclosure. That's bad for multiple reasons, animals being the least of them.
B:She stood there and watched as her child crawled under/through the enclosure into danger.
Either way, I know the mother is a fool at best. So there's that.
They probably should have given custody to the gorilla.
CC
(8,039 posts)Or at least someone claiming to be an eye witness.
http://www.foreverymom.com/witness-to-cincinnati-zoo-gorilla-death-it-wasnt-the-parents-fault/#.V00AT0dBn6s.facebook
Silver_Witch
(1,820 posts)In a zoo! Even the FB poster makes it clear the mother did not know where her child was! Negligence sorry it is negligence!
cagefreesoylentgreen
(838 posts)n/t
valerief
(53,235 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)Last edited Mon May 30, 2016, 09:17 PM - Edit history (1)
I would have no objection to viewing of the gorillas from the inside of a cage looking out, rather than from the outside of a cage looking in.
I would hope that in either case, the cage be both child-proof and gorilla-proof.
cagefreesoylentgreen
(838 posts)Yeah I know it's just a movie, but with our current or near future technology we should be able to build fully enclosed bubble vehicles that run along a preprogrammed track. That way neither the humans or the animals are in physical danger from each other and animals would not need to be confined to concrete enclosures.
I don't like zoos most of the time, but sadly, I think some animal species are safer in captivity, because humans are pricks. Look up what's happening to the pangolin, for example.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Hundreds of thousands of other parents manage to keep the kids out of the fucking cage, these idiots didn't!
I'm not sure what you are suggesting here.
Hundreds of thousands of other parents won't even be visiting the zoo any more if they don't feel that it is safe for their children.
One may view that as a good thing or a bad thing, I suppose, but it is the reality.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)...you know, so the little fuckers don't wind up getting animals killed...
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)Parents need to learn that the outside world is not there to wait on them and provide babysitting and rescue services.
One mother with 4 little kids, 3 of them ambulatory and 4th a baby in her arms, does not belong at a zoo. Put the baby in a stroller and leashes on the toddlers, or bring another adult, or stay home.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)If the parents balk at that, well, they don't get in.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)the kids are either under the parent's control, or not allowed in.
Fritz Walter
(4,291 posts)That the mom was distracted by other children, while her brat found his way into the gorilla compound.
Whose other children drew her attention from her own spawn?
Where were their parents?
If these distractions were her own offspring, then the zoo and the city of Cincinnati should come down on her and the father like a ton of bricks.
And, since when has Fux Noise been a credible news source?
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Probably isnt coming at this story from a level of compassion that a 4 year old child in potentially life-threatening danger (and no, it wasnt the gorilla's fault) merits.
stone space
(6,498 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I guess.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)BTW, three-year-old child. The news got it wrong at first.
Ex Lurker
(3,814 posts)which is get into anything and everything. My lack of compassion is for the inattentive parent who allowed this to happen and apparently doesn't give a shit.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)But I don't know enough about the situation to make definitive statements as to how exactly this went down, much less assign blame.
lame54
(35,294 posts)you now know everything you need to know
Fritz Walter
(4,291 posts)I'm sorry if my choice of words upsets you. They were written in anger and disgust, not hatred.
lame54
(35,294 posts)Really?
Texasgal
(17,045 posts)You are just a little ray of sunshine.
Silver_Witch
(1,820 posts)And how will Harambe's friends and fellows feel?
ToxMarz
(2,169 posts)I'd rather base my assessments and solutions on the facts, I don't really care what you "think". Zoos are public attractions and specifically marketed to children and students. As with all public spaces, they need to be as safe as they can possibly be (idiot proof actually), and incidences like this can and should be learning situations. She didn't take her children to play in the middle of the highway, it is not unreasonable for her to rely that there is a certain degree of safety in the zoos design to keep the animals and public separated. I have no doubt the zoo's design is intended to provide that degree of safety and something more than a distracted mom failed.
sinkingfeeling
(51,460 posts)with a parent 100% of the tme. It isn't the responsibility of the place you take your children to make it completely "child proof'. I have been in restaurants where kids have run into servers carrying trays of hot food, run into the kitchen, and stuck their fingers into the salad bar as the parents sat at the table ignoring their responsibility to watch their kid.
Just like the government can't ever keep you 100% safe from a terrorist attack or a crazy with a gun. A zoo can't stop a kid from crawling under a fence and through bushes, only parental supervision can.
ToxMarz
(2,169 posts)3 year old can breach. It's not about guaranteeing 100% safety, that's a deflection. The Govt and the zoo would have done all they could to ensure the safety of the exhibit and it wasn't enough. No zoo would intentionally be designed so that it would only be safe to visit if all children were in strollers and their hands were held 100% of the time. That's not how humans behave in real life, my Mom has 7 kids and even with dad they only had 4 hands. But when they took us places, they went to places that were supposed to be designed and safe for children.
lostnfound
(16,184 posts)Walk a fricking mile in her shoes first.
I took my kid to the zoo many times with my little one. It seemed to be a fairly safe place, well designed to stop kids from being in danger. A false sense of security may have been a contributing factor.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)(b. July 6, 2003) and Marina (b. September 11, 2008)."
Rex
(65,616 posts)Then again, I am completely against caged zoos - they should all be free ranging and not tiny cages or holding pins.
bjo59
(1,166 posts)He didn't ask to be in that zoo, he didn't ask for some little kid to wander into his "prison cell," he didn't ask to be entertainment for humans. I freaking hate zoos. Wildlife refuges, yes. Zoos, absolutely not. I'm getting so sick of the narcissistic human species.
secondwind
(16,903 posts)Mr.Bill
(24,303 posts)And throw in Horse and dog racing, too. I had an uncle who owned a few race horses. No animal was meant to live that life.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Why? What happened? What did I do and the pain. I hate zoos, people should be forced to travel to open range areas and see the animal in a REAL habitat not some made up prison to make a few bucks at the gorillas expense.
They should be forced to endure the REAL environment and then MAYBE they will realize zoos are just prisons and sideshows to exploit the animal. All for a buck, I will never believe it is to 'bring wildlife closer to humans so they can see what it is like.'
What it is like must be hell, like it was for the elephant in Japan that was imprisoned for 60 years without a friend in the world. I am with you on this one...I am getting sick of the narcissistic human species, Donald Trump being the prefect example.
braddy
(3,585 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)Unfortunately, the child wasn't a baby gorilla.
braddy
(3,585 posts)something that I will never do again.
Nothing happened, but that was only luck, his power and strength were far beyond the ability of my 200 muscular pounds to handle, and when I got a measure of what was in the house with me after interacting with it a little physically, I was very eager for the hours to pass until his owner picked him up.
The Chimpanzee's grip and arm strength were beyond belief.
When I watched that little 3 year boy, I kept waiting for an arm or leg to come off purely from accident or rough play.
stone space
(6,498 posts)Silver_Witch
(1,820 posts)Harembe did not hurt that child. He however paid with his life while humans paniclked about thee "beast".
No broken bones or other injuries for the child.
braddy
(3,585 posts)Divernan
(15,480 posts)apparently, according to some onlookers, still trying to protect the child from the idiot looky-loos.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)But we dont really know what happened, do we?
Ex Lurker
(3,814 posts)Whether the zoo was also negligent is a matter to be determined, but 4 year olds with an adult paying attention and within arm's reach don't get up to such as this. I am fine with passing judgement in this instance. particularly when the parent's own statements show a lack of self awareness and responsibility.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Something obviously happened here that shouldn't have, but I think the reflexive need to assign blame is wrong. This was a no-win tragedy that could actually have ended worse, beyond that I think it is not a good idea to make assumptions.
Ex Lurker
(3,814 posts)per her facebook post.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)And anyone who says they don't understand how a 4 year old could get away from a parent has never been a parent of a 4 year old.
Blaming and shaming this woman- based upon speculation- isn't going to accomplish anything. Certainly won't bring the gorilla back.
Bettie
(16,110 posts)kids that age are FAST and small. All it takes is a step and they can be obscured by other, taller humans and they are off looking at whatever caught their interest.
Even the most attentive parent isn't focused on only their child 100% of the time. Actually, parents today are far more attentive than when I was a child.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)That sort of thing never happens at a zoo.
stone space
(6,498 posts)That sort of thing never happens at a zoo.
And certainly, even with 2020 hindsight, we still can't anticipate it looking into the future, even after all this.
No reason to fix it.
It'll be the parents' fault next time as well, so why even bother to fix it?
progressoid
(49,991 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)might have enraged the gorilla. Maybe it's just time to get rid of zoos altogether. I think IMAX documentaries of animals in the wild is probably a better way to show these magnificent creatures.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)They don't take effect immediately, it takes time to work.
linuxman
(2,337 posts)Tranquilizers have to be drawn, measured, then allowed time to set in. Usually a few minutes at least.
There isn't a tranq gun loaded with all purpose, fast acting drugs in a glass case marked "Break in case of poor parenting".
Additionally, shooting a metal dart into a large Silverback probably won't help to soothe it, at least until the drugs eventually kick in.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Tranquilizers take time to subdue an animal. During that time, the animal is really pissed off that it just got shot with a big dart.
When the pissed off animal is a gorilla holding a child, it would be a very bad time to be that child.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Short answer, no.
progressoid
(49,991 posts)Still catching up.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)if it wasn't for DU, honestly.
But what the guy said was, there's no tranquilizer that would act fast and reliably enough to ensure the gorilla didn't become violently unpredictable for a time before passing out. I get the feeling that those tranquilizer darts that put secret agents out the second they hit the neck only exist on tv shows.
dilby
(2,273 posts)Want to impress me, turn every zoo into a petting zoo where you can run with the lions. Till then keeping animals in cages for amusement needs to end.
Quixote1818
(28,947 posts)Feeling the Bern
(3,839 posts)other than that, I completely agree.
Most people that go to zoos are the dumbest things in the world.
I worked at the Nanjing Massacre Memorial Hall for 2.5 years. You can't believe the dumbass questions I got from patrons that came.
Here I am working there, working on my dissertation and as a historian there. . .one person asked me if they could jump into the pit of 10,000 corpses to see if the skulls there were really skulls and not fake.
To quote Carlin: "people are fucking dumb."
valerief
(53,235 posts)see them in their natural habitats?
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Zoos not only provide the animals with a real shot at survival, they also raise public awareness of conservation. Overall, I'd argue zoos are a good thing, if done properly.
valerief
(53,235 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)I'm not convinced the tiger has to be within 20 feet of a poacher.
valerief
(53,235 posts)Judi Lynn
(160,545 posts)malaise
(269,061 posts)Back in the day it was the parents who were smart. Now they're addicted to the phone.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)malaise
(269,061 posts)Our parents let us roam around the neighborhood where everyone knew everyone and looked out for others' kids without being all over them. Today the parents don't let them go anywhere and none of them are accustomed to the outdoors. The parents want to interact with their phone and the kids wander off. It's very different.
I think helicopter parents with over-involved parenting is real. My mother didn't even know what I went to study -now parents are filling out application forms for college.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Kids still ride bikes around neighborhoods, hike in the woods, get skinned knees, etc.
The reason kids didn't fall into Gorilla enclosures back in the 1970s is because the gorillas were in cages instead of open air habitats.
malaise
(269,061 posts)They had it worse
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)truth2power
(8,219 posts)that the boy kept saying he was going into the water and the mother said, "no you're not" and the boy said, "yes I am" and mom said, "no you're not", etc.
IF this account is true, and notice, I said, "if", - I wasn't there - then that's the crux of the matter. Why would any parent be arguing with their child over the child taking some action that could be life-threatening? There's hardly a week goes by that I don't encounter, in the grocery or somewhere, a child screaming his lungs out and bullying his/her parent because of wanting something the parent isn't prepared to provide.
I've come to the conclusion that Americans, these days, worship their children instead of parenting them. In addition, when my children were young, MANY years ago, I had a harness on the youngest when I was in large crowds. Nowadays, they even have cute little backpack harnesses that look like a teddy bear.
Of course there's always some "concern busybody" who'll say the little darlings shouldn't be treated like animals, or some other nonsense. Better they fall into a hole and tragedy ensues, I guess.
I blame the mother. Sue me.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)FlaGranny
(8,361 posts)first hand experience with a parent child/encounter that made me shake my head in disbelief. A mother was actually arguing with a 3 or 4 year old girl. In effect, she was teaching the child how to argue with her. I'm certain that mother had a "wonderful" time trying to raise that child and she probably never had a clue that she herself taught that child how to be a "brat."
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)1) We have no business caging these animals for profit or pleasure.
2) It's a shame that this magnificent animal had to die because of distracted parents.
I'm sad that so many on this thread think we can child-proof the world.
Feeling the Bern
(3,839 posts)I weep for the future of the country with this generation of sociopaths.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Feeling the Bern
(3,839 posts)bring her back.
So was the kid on the Nanjing subway who was kicking her grandmother so hard he caused bruises on her legs because she wouldn't get up to let him sit.
Sociopathy starts young, fella.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Feeling the Bern
(3,839 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Keep trying.
stone space
(6,498 posts)WTF is wrong with people?
Feeling the Bern
(3,839 posts)their jobs.
Spawn of Hell - screaming, whining kids
Demon Spawn - sociopathic children
To quote Carlin: Not all children are smart and clever. Kids are like everyone else. A few winners, a whole lot of losers.
Fast forward to 8:40 and this is my attitude towards most kids.
SalviaBlue
(2,917 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)...to expect that a zoo should be able to keep toddlers out of the fucking animal pens? We could go back and forth for hours about how things should be, but as they are, kids are brats and their parents don't give a flying fuck. This is something zoos should consider when constructing their enclosures, if not for the children's sake, then for the animals'.
dflprincess
(28,079 posts)hand in the meerkat enclosure and was bitten - the kid had to pass under barriers to get that close to the cage so it was another story of negligent parents.
The parents refused to get the kid rabies shots (which aren't that bad, I have a friend who had to have them - not anything like they used to be. You get one by the bite and the rest in the butt). Even though the meerkats had been vaccinated the zoo wound up having to kill all the meerkats so they could be tested immediately for rabies - turned out none of the animals had them.
I even found an old DU thread about it:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x5474841
Blasphemer
(3,261 posts)A few potentially unpleasant rabies shots that kid would forget about pretty quickly vs. killing an entire family of meerkats? Those people engaged in animalslaughter.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)I don't see blame in the Cincinnati incident. The mom should have watched her kid happen, but it's hard to do. The kid shouldn't have been able to get in, but no one had before. I think it was just a horrible incident.
But I have kids and if one of my kids put their hand in to touch an animal, they'd have to deal with the shots. No question.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)Failure on the zoo to establish age limits and failure of the parent(s) to identify the compound as age inappropriate and leave.
IronLionZion
(45,460 posts)without knowing or caring about what happened. That could mean the mom or the gorilla.
The blame game is very easy. The zoo's director is refusing to blame the Mom since she had other kids there. It's not like she was lounging about eating bonbons. A freeper could easily blame DU and liberal cultural values for this and it would be just as nonsensical.
The zoo also stands by their decision to kill instead of tranquilize. They said they would do it again, no question.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/30/us/gorilla-shot-harambe/
Maynard has said that tranquilizers may not have taken effect in time to save the boy while the dart might have agitated the animal, worsening the situation. Animal expert Jeff Corwin agreed that tranquilizers may have taken too long.
"... In some situations, depending on what the medication is, it can take upward to 10 to 15 minutes," Corwin said. "It may take multiple shots."
Many pointed out that a human life was at stake -- especially that of a child -- and that's more important than that of a gorilla.
Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)Very sad story with a very unhappy ending.
sunnystarr
(2,638 posts)Up until today I thought this little 3 year old climbed over the barrier because the lame-stream media reported that. He didn't. He slipped under the barrier which takes a second to do.
The mom took her eyes off him for a second or two, which ALL mothers do with regularity. She didn't see him because the shrubbery hid him from view. Then he appeared in the moat and people started screaming when they saw the gorilla take him out of the moat. All the screaming agitated the animal who ran off with child in tow.
The rest is history.
The mom is not to blame but the zoo is. It's their responsibility to ensure that a child can't climb over or slip under any barrier that keeps them from contact with the animal on the other side.
I cry every time I even think about Harambe.
Ex Lurker
(3,814 posts)She does share a part of the blame.
lark
(23,108 posts)I can't tell you how many times I pulled my oldest son off a fence he was starting to climb to get to whatever animal had caught his fancy.
Response to Ex Lurker (Original post)
Mosby This message was self-deleted by its author.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)I think Harambe thought he was protecting the child.
To him, our screaming probably sounds chimpanzee-like.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)Past history in two cases shows a silverback and a female gorilla protected a young child when they fell into a gorilla enclosure.
In addition to Jambo in 1986, Binti Jua in 1996.