If the Union Members are going to not support themselves then why should I continue to support them?

[dinopipie]

Why should I bother to Support Unions Anymore When over 35% of Union Members in Wisconsin voted for Walker!

WTF is wrong with them?

I have always supported Unions.
Unions helped many in my extended family over the years. Almost everything I buy is Union made.
My home, 6 years old now, was built by Union Labor
All of my cars have been made by Union Labor
I shop at Union Grocery Stores when I am not buying from local farmers.

Perhaps some current Union members can explain why its members are voting for their own demise?

[pintobean]

1. What's your source for

"over 35% of Union Members in Wisconsin voted for Walker"? I think you're referring to voters with a union member in the household. I haven't looked for the source, but Ed Schultz reported that the union members number was 27%.

[dinopipie]

8. That number was widely reported in the news from multiple sources

but even if it is 27% that is still to high.

The result should be 100% of union voters voted against Walker.

[pintobean]

11. In other words

you won't do the work to support your claim. How well do you think Democrats would do if unions just sat out all elections? You want to focus on, and blame the minority, rather than focus on the 73% and the money and work that unions poured into the effort. If you want to stop supporting unions, you will have yourself to blame for shrinking pay checks and shitty working conditions.

[dinopipie]

21. Did I say I was no longer going to support them?

No I did not.

You know I could easily not give a shit, why because I am in the 7% meaning 93% of America makes less then me. I have HC and Money saved for retirement, I could retire without SS if I had to. I don't have to worry about were my next meal is coming from or going to the doctor. All my basic needs are met. My livelihood does not depend on Union Wages at all.

From a purely fiscal POV it does not matter who, D or R, runs the show, I do OK either way.

Bottom line is Union Members voting against their own self interest, it is a problem a big problem.

If you want to get hung up on numbers and ensuring the correct % is posted on a political discussion board that few read or know about that is your right but it does not accomplish much of anything.

[pintobean]

27. Did you catch the "if"?

I really don't give a shit about your personal finances. Posting false numbers that slander union members, I do care about.

[dinopipie]

32. If it is slander as you calim then sue me

[pintobean]

33. Aren't you special.

Bless your heart.

[Autumn]

101. You are just being rude. I saw that reported on the news also, just as the OP said.

And bless your little heart too.

[pintobean]

102. Keep reading.

Don't stop here, the truth is just below. It doesn't matter what you saw, or think you saw on the TV. Changing a word changes the meaning of the claim.

[Autumn]

103. Bless the hearts of the fucking news and their shitty reporting.

I heard "union members' on our local news cast. So who changed the fucking word? And " It doesn't matter what you saw, or think you saw on the TV. Changing a word changes the meaning of the claim." So we need a new fucking rule to make people like you happy. Don't ask questions on a discussion board until you know the fucking answer .

[pintobean]

105. Oh, I believe you heard it correctly.

I've heard the same thing on the news. They do it all the time. I don't know if it's propaganda or laziness. The fact that it's been pointed out to the OP and there has been no correction says a lot. There's a lot of speculation in this thread as to it's purpose - rightfully so.

[Autumn]

106. The only thing it says is that the OP asked a question on what they heard reported.

Why do they need to correct their question and OP?

[pintobean]

107. If you're ok with false information

being posted on DU, fine. I'm not.

"Why should I bother to Support Unions Anymore When over 35% of Union Members in Wisconsin voted for Walker!"

[Autumn]

111. It's not false information. The OP created a post asking a question based on what was reported

so they have no need to correct. It's a question based on what the media reported. Take it up with the media.
Your demand for a correction on what the poster heard was reported is petty.

It's a real problem when over 35% of Union household members in Wisconsin voted for Walker. That's the fucking problem, over 35% of Union household members in Wisconsin voted for Walker, and that's what I am focused on.

How on earth they would vote for that bastard and keep him in is just puzzling.

[pintobean]

112. Fuck it.

You go ahead and demand 100% support, too. Punish the 73%. Excellent strategy going into a general election.

[Autumn]

114. Fuck it yourself.

This is a discussion board and it's a question up for discussion. I'm not demanding 100% support, and wanting to punish the 73%. All I'm saying is that your attack and demands on the OP are fucking petty. If it were my OP I would tell you to stick your demand for a correction where the sun don't shine.

My Daddy was Union, and everybody in our household and everyone we knew supported the Union, the fact that these household members didn't is a real fucking problem.

[pintobean]

118. classy

for someone who's first reply to me was complaining about rudeness.

[Autumn]

120. Pretty classy there yourself

you have a nice day.

[pintobean]

121. Yeah, you too.

Maybe you and dino can hang out and compare notes.

[Autumn]

122. Don't need to compare notes with anyone.

I can recognize someone being rude and uncivil when I see it. And I can feel free to point it out.

[demwing]

70. Sarcastic answers won't support your point

Here's the NY Times exit poll that reveals that of those Union households that voted, 38% supported Walker.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/06/05/us/politics/wisconsin-recall-exit-polls.html

If you think the numbers posted are false, prove it.

[pintobean]

73. You just did

"Union households", not union members, as stated in the OP.

Here's the question they asked:
"Do you or someone in your household belong to a labor union?"

[demwing]

95. Ah I see

wordplay

[pintobean]

97. Ah I see

You think a union member is in control of every vote in his/her home.

[demwing]

126. No I just think

that's it's more important for you to play word games with what the OP said and score imaginary debate points than to try to understand what the OP meant meant.

[pintobean]

128. Oh, I know what the OP means

(to do) as do most of the posters in this thread. I'm not playing any word games. Words have meaning, as do actions, or lack of action.

[demwing]

131. Sorry my bad

I thought you were just expressing an opinion, I had no idea you had access to the OP's inner motivations.

So where does one get certified in omniscience?

[ret5hd]

28. wow. we are all impressed...well, 32.573% of us anyway.

you are quite a fine specimen. i wish i could be more like you.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

67. Isn't he though?

93% of us are bums compared to the OP.

[monmouth]

17. I agree with you..n/t

[Ship of Fools]

63. Hi! Husband works for KCPL

(a power company--800 strong--Int'l Bro-hood of Elec Workers).
Of those 800, 799 (most likely) vote R. Charlie takes in articles
and argues with these guys all the time.

In his experience, it boils down to ignorance and lack of even
a modicum of critical thinking skills. Period, end of story.

I'm a member of good standing with Am Fed of Musicians.
Physical probs don't allow me to perform anymore (but
back in the day I was considered a musical prodigy and
played my first pro gig substituting for vacationing
string players in a symphony orchestra at age 17).

I still pay dues. I will always pay dues. I've incorporated it
into my measly budget and am proud to do so.

It isn't rocket science. It's about politely engaging in
conversation with these guys. His friends, some of whom are
truly toothless wonders, listen politely to Charlie and me.
Whether they buy it or not, they'll engage. That's all I can do.
That's all anybody can do. Educate to the best of your ability.

[whathehell]

18. The source of the confusion may be this: Union Members at 27%..Union households at 35%..n/t

[pintobean]

23. Confusion, or propaganda.

It seems our new friend would either source the numbers or correct the OP.

[dinopipie]

30. Seems like you are missing the point of the OP

But keep obsessing about that number it will really make a difference.

[pintobean]

40. I think I nailed the point

of the op.

Sorry, I posted that in the wrong place.

[pangaia]

82. Your original post hits the nail right on the head. All these folks obsessing about the exact # or

households/members miss your point. The fact is, as another reply mentions, trhe ignorant are the ones voting against themselves.

[dinopipie]

36. If you think so

but it is not my lively hood that is under attack from the Walkers of the world it is yours.

[pintobean]

41. Well, thanks for your concern.

[dinopipie]

49. If you don't want me to buy union made goods and services just say so

your choice.

But I become more and more less inclined to do so knowing that large percentages of union workers are using the money I pay them either directly or indirectly to vote for republicans which is something I am totally against.

[pintobean]

59. Go back to post #11 and do the math.

Do whatever you want, but don't put words in my mouth. I didn't even come close to suggesting that anyone shouldn't buy union services and goods. Without union money, votes and organizing GOTV, we would have republican majorities pretty much everywhere. If that's what you want, don't support the unions and just keep on trashing them.

[12AngryBorneoWildmen]

81. Damn! Take a Breath.

Dinopipie's concern is valid and h/h heart is in the right place. If just 10% (mostly white males in that 10%, I'll assume) vote for any R anytime, anywhere, ---"Houston, We Have……."

[pintobean]

83. I'm breathing just fine

but thanks for your concern.

[demwing]

135. I agree, you ARE breathing just fine

you're just acting like an ass

[Alcibiades]

65. It's livelihood

And if you think you're safe, think again.

The oligarchs who run the GOP have mounted a successful campaign against every asset owned by middle class families, whether it be pensions, home values, health care plans, job security, jobs, education, food, bank accounts, etc. The end result will be one wherein the costs of maintaining a middle class lifestyle are high but earnings are stagnant for all but the top 1%. They don't care how the domestic economy fares, because all their money is invested in emerging markets anyway.

If union members voted for Walker, some of it could be due to the millions spent by the Koch brothers. This is a task that calls for education, not indignation. If it makes you angry, just fight harder.

[whathehell]

134. That's what I heard on the Ed Show.

I think the number is dreadfully high,

though not as high, obviously, as 35.%.

[K8-EEE]

117. 27% of any US population seems to be nuts.

27% isn't that the same number that thinks Bush saved us from Saddam's WMD, thinks they will be raptured, gives money to TV evangelicals etc? That's the segment that Sarah Palin & FR type grifters are aiming at. I guess the unions have some of them as well. Kind of hard to restrict membership based on nutty conspiracy theories a worker may or may not believe in.

[cyclezealot]

34. I can well understand.

They were poisoned by thousands of hours of Koch ads. I still sympathize. Their stupidity is death to the union movement. When they find out they need it , Walker and company will have buried unionism. Still, we join them in their short sided view, ultimately we hurt ourselves.

[Turbineguy]

2. Maybe Fox News is targeted toward them?

Last edited Tue Jun 12, 2012, 01:59 AM - Edit history (1)

It would seem so, after all, you don't have to change the minds of those who are already against Unions.

[Laurian]

3. I'm interested in the answers to your question.

My guess is that there are lots of uneducated, ill informed union members who do not know the history of the labor movement and only focus on the requirement that to work in a unionized organization, they must pay union dues and they'd rather keep that money for themselves. Their narrow minded focus on a few dollars blinds them to the overall benefits they have received from union negotiations on their behalf and the Republicans have have exploited that ignorance.

Unfortunately, it will take some time for the consequences of union busting to become apparent to these people and they may never link their views to the decline of middle class wages.

Selfishness and ignorance are difficult to counter.

[Skinner]

4. You should support them because it's the right thing to do. (nt)

[coalition_unwilling]

143. +1,000,000,000 x 1,000,000,000 - Well put and definitely

needed saying, imho. You either support workers' collective bargaining rights or you support capital.

[Harmony Blue]

152. That sums it up

Public unions and public education are cornerstones of any healthy democracy in the world. I am not surprised that there are people that don't know this, but I am surprised as to why they don't know this.

[Violet_Crumble]

154. Plus eleventy billion! n/t

[Honeycombe8]

5. Those were probably members forced to join and not voluntary members. nt

[UnrepentantLiberal]

69. Nice Republican talking point

you threw in there.

[Sancho]

6. I'm not convinced that report is accurate...

Here in Florida, we have a few union members who jump ship, but I've seen the "polls" reveal almost impossible results. That happened to me in 2004 when Castor "lost" a Senate race in the same precinct where the other races all went blue. I witnessed a machine flipping votes in that election.

Look at this report (posted in other places on DU): http://richardcharnin.wordpress.com/2012/06/09/walker-recall-the-exit-pollsters-mo-never-changes/

In 2000, I was unaware of what was happening. After watching this election after election, I see more of these anomalies as simple evidence of manipulating the elections to impossible results.

[valerief]

58. Bradblog.com has been recording proprietary voting machine anomalies for years now.

Enough money buys the people who control the cards that control the votes.

[LaydeeBug]

7. They have long needed to clean house. nt

[dinopipie]

10. I remember Back in the day seeing 2 of my Union Uncles

Schooling Scabs and a few others who were stupid enough to go against the union.

[LaydeeBug]

13. In this day and age, I have a guy I grew up with who is now in Ohio working for GM, praising repigs

each day. He really is of the mindset that 'he got his, fuck everyone else'. And until Unions purge their rolls of assholes like these, they will die from within.

[dinopipie]

16. Back when I was in the military

trouble makers were taken out back and given special training.

The people that came back from training either left or fell in line.

Yes the Unions and the Democratic Party both need to clean house in a big way.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

77. There's something like that here at DU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1240

[Bluenorthwest]

43. Your 'Union Uncles' by training scabs, became scabs themselves...

don't take your labor information from scabs, related or not.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

45. Maybe I misunderstood the post

I took it as the union uncles schooled the scabs on what happens when they oppose the union, not as training the scabs to be scabs.

[dinopipie]

51. You are correct

They got schooled on the the Union way and what loyalty is.

[Bluenorthwest]

54. Ah, but you missed the lesson?

Apparently so....

[pintobean]

62. +1

[12AngryBorneoWildmen]

88. WOW! You completely misunderstood the post (as did I) and yet

you continue to smack down dinopipie, even after clarification totally reverses the meaning and intent. Wow! Smack on Brother. You have a special knack.

[Enrique]

9. Divide and conquer

exhibit A

[HereSince1628]

12. Are you really sure that you want to accept that 35% of Union members voted for Walker?

Based on the turnout numbers, it seems that not all the union members voted. So your statement may not be technically correct.

The Milwaukee City safety workers union did back Walker. They did it because of a single issue that they have stood by for many years: they want to be able to work as public employees of the city but not live within the city. This requirement occurs elsewhere in the US and it's intended to support employment inside struggling cities. Walker--whose residence is in a suburb of Milwaukee--agrees they should live where they want. Barrett backed the position they should live inside the city.

Walker's budget repair bill was willing to leave collective bargaining in place for fire and police throughout the state, while removing it for everyone else. During the protests, safety employees from around the state marched in Madison and rejected the notion of taking away bargaining rights for any public employee. There was solidarity at that time.

I'm not at all so trusting of the numbers being tossed around. But I can't say they are right or wrong or provide better more credible replacements...so I'll stipulate that some, maybe many, unoin members

It's sad to see that anyone would willingly abandon support for the right to collective bargaining just over the battle in Wisconsin. Why would anyone who really understands that unions were the most powerful forces lifting living standards of the past 120 years because an uncertain fraction of union members voted for Walker?

To anyone who thinks that way I say take a cold shower, at least throw cold water on your face and think about this with all due gravity--you want to abandon the system that moved children out of coal mines and into schools, you want to abandon the thing which gave the nation the 40 hour work week, you want to abandon principles that have guided your own life because an uncertain fraction of union members in Wisconsin voted against the recall?

That makes less sense than the chimera of Walker-Democrats.

[DallasNE]

29. Other Factors In Play As Well

Wisconsin has a fairly high Catholic population so social issues override economic issues for many of them and that includes union members. Same thing with evangelicals/white southern Baptists.

[HereSince1628]

66. Yes, well, there was a headline: Milwaukee archbishop backs unions

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_bb0bf57e-3aad-11e0-9109-001cc4c002e0.html

It's true that catholics are the largest organized religous denomination

[DallasNE]

108. Archbishop Backs Principle Of Unions But

Then goes on to say this:

It does not follow from this that every claim made by workers or their representatives is valid. Every union, like every other economic actor, is called to work for the common good, to make sacrifices when required, and to adjust to new economic realities.

That seems to be telling me that the unions claim here is not valid and that they need to make sacrificaces and adjust to the new economic realities. In other words, they are solidly backing Walker in this fight. And this was issued back in February.

[Sherman A1]

14. You understand that Unions are just like any other group of humans

There are a variety of viewpoints and situations within the group.

I am a union member and I understand the need to vote and shop in my best interest.

That said, what of the new hire who just joined the Union because it is a closed shop, does not understand just why they have an initiation fee & dues deducted from their paycheck, does not get what the Union provides them in the terms of job protection, health care, wages and alike? What of the individual who for whatever reason feels they have been screwed by the Union because things in a situation did not turn out as they expected (because the simply can't read the contract under which they work)?
What of the person shopping for a car that really wants to buy an American Made vehicle that gets the absolute best mileage available only to find that the Toyota made in Japan gets better mileage (the situation I was in in 2007). Not due to the Union worker but the decisions made by management to not focus on mileage? All my cars have been Fords up to that point, yet with a year of research in 2006 & 2007 I could not find an American car with the best mileage numbers.
What of the grocery shopper who is forced to stand in line as checkers have been cut back in favor of U-Scan automated checkouts? Do they wait in line or use the machines for the few items in their hand?

There is rarely black & white situations, everything tends to be nuanced shades of gray.

[aquart]

15. Thank you for your concern.

[lunatica]

19. So you think the very day of the elections everyone knows what union members

voted for? If you believe that crap then you'll believe anything.

Statistical numbers are never wrong or manipulated? Some asshole made up that number and now it's out there and everyone believes it.

[hedgehog]

20. Apparently you aren't a union member yourself -

why not?

[dinopipie]

24. Because there is no union for what I do

I guess I could be a Union of 1 if I wanted to start one up.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

89. What do you do?

[dinopipie]

113. What do I do?

Well it depends, some of this some of that.
Some people call me a Cleaner or a Fixer think of me as Winston Wolfe type of person without the dead bodies.

I get called in to solve problems all kinds of problems at the macro and micro level. I get programs back on track, I save you, the tax payer money, besides you pay my salary, indirectly of course but you do pay it and quite well too.

I usually get called in just before the sh_t hits the fan so to speak to keep it from hitting in the first place.

I work in the shadows and behind the scenes others, the public face, get the credit for what I do which I don’t care, I prefer to stay in the background, you meet much more interesting individuals in the shadows.

[pintobean]

115. Oh, I get it

Kinda like

[coalition_unwilling]

144. FWIW, your smug attitude and sense of entitlement is really creepy - n/t

[Blecht]

145. My reaction exactly. nt

[mmonk]

22. Union leadership a long time ago made the mistake

that centrist Democrats would protect their interests the way the party had traditionally done. They kept compromising with leaders of corporate America to "save their jobs" when saving their jobs was not the intent of corporate leaders and CEO's.

[JNelson6563]

25. Yes! Punish them all because of a few in WI! Brilliant!

[vaberella]

31. 35% is not just a few. Let's be honest here. n/t

[JNelson6563]

37. In One State...out of those who voted.

Yeah, that's totally representative of labor across the country. Totally fair and honest assessment.

Not.

Julie

[vaberella]

53. I thought his post was wholly dependent on WI and not the ENTIRE labor force. n/t

[JNelson6563]

80. It seems to me

union support in general is being questioned due to what went on in WI. From the OP:

Why should I bother to Support Unions Anymore When over 35% of Union Members in Wisconsin voted for Walker!

See what I mean?

Julie

[vaberella]

104. Oh understood. You're right.

I read it as leaning towards only WI...and I feel the same way the OP does in that regard. The entire labor force in general, then that's a bit absurd, since both my parents were one and I will be part of one in September.

[shcrane71]

26. I can't believe that exit poll. It's like believing the exit poll where the race is too close to

call, yet Walker wins with a landslide. Elections in this country are often rigged.

[HomerRamone]

56. You can't believe the exit polls? If elections are often rigged,

why shouldn't we believe the exit polls instead of the "results"?

[shcrane71]

68. Hard to tell what to believe isn't it. Seems something could be done to instill

trust in our electoral process, but who's going to vote for something like that?

[Bluenorthwest]

38. Assuming you mean the Walker recall, Scotty exempted some Unions from attack...

Police, Fire and other emergency services Unions were not included in Walker's attacks on other Unions. So they were not affected by those laws. In spite of this fact, two of these unions, the Wisconsin Professional Police Association and the Professional Fire Fighters of Wisconsin, both backed Barrett.
http://www.thenorthwestern.com/article/20110214/OSH0101/110214045/Exemptions-police-fire-fighters-Walker-budget-bill-sparks-questions-political-payback

[TBF]

39. Class.

A friend of mine made this statement and I think it's very good:

Working class people currently do not vote in the interests of the working class; they vote in "self interest" which is how they are supposed to vote in this political culture. Each individual votes for or against what he/she perceives as his/her personal interest. If anyone wants to know why anyone voted one way or the other you would need to ask the individual voter - and so far no has asked.

It is illogical to expect working people to vote in support of the working class when they have been brought up from the cradle with the ideas and aspirations of the "individualist", eschewing membership in groups or unions except in blatant self-interest. We fight and compete against each other in the shameless way we are trained to. Liberals and progressive "can't understand why these people vote against their interests." The actual bottom line is, they don't. They just don't act as a class...yet.

[whathehell]

155. Speaking as the child of a labor organizer in the nineteen forties...

I can tell you without hesitation that, in times past, individual workers

understood that THEIR interests were, in fact, the SAME as their "class", if you will.

People in unions didn't vote republican....If they did, they were in a minority


because it was COMMON knowledge that Republicans did SQUAT for working people

and that was BEFORE they were as extreme as they are now!

The "Reagan Democrat" phenomenon probably had something to do with it,

although old FDR Dems like my dad detested Reagan and what he did

to the Air Traffic Controllers.

[TBF]

157. Agree - I knew it as the daughter of a union worker in the 70s

The unions were actually pretty strong in Wisconsin, probably with ties to the groups in Chicago. They were serious about their jobs and organizing. My dad is late 60s now, small town, goes to Catholic church regularly with his wife, and is still a democrat. He has not been fooled. So even though I see the money and churches as a factor, I know that can't be all of it. For some reason people reject viewing themselves as workers. I blame Reagan/Bush for that - all the propaganda about folks becoming "owners".

[justgamma]

42. "Almost everything I buy is Union made"

Where do you shop? I can't find anything Union made around here.

[dinopipie]

46. Google is your friend

http://www.ufcw.org/about_ufcw/ufcw_made_products/

this will get you started on your quest

[Bluenorthwest]

52. And yet you apparently could not google up information on exempt Unions in Wisconsin

and when that information was provided for you, you simply do not acknowledge it. Interesting if you ask me....

[12AngryBorneoWildmen]

91. Pick a little. Talk a little. Pick a little. Talk a little.

Pick, pick, pick. Talk a lot. Pick a little more. Pick…...

[KharmaTrain]

44. Unions Are Not A Monolith...Solidarity Has Been A Problem For A Long Time

The Wisconsin vote highlighted the rift between public and private sector unions. The private sector doesn't have the securities and protections the public unions do and this has cause growing annimosity. While you saw firefighters and teachers and snowplough drivers, you didn't see a lot of teamsters or steel workers or other private sector unions at the rallies.

The corporates have long used the divide and conquer...pointing to other unions doing better or abuses and have turned many people not only away from unions but anti-union. Unions didn't help themselves by being very inclusive over the years with their own infighting and failing to stand strong to the onslaught of downscaling and off shoring that's occured. We haven't seen large-scale strikes like ones that paralyized this country in the 30s...or even one union respecting another one's picket lines anymore. We're in an age of everyone for themselves and this works against the concept of unionizing...and we see people regularly voting against their own interests out of petty spite.

The union movement needs a revitilization. Wisconsin showed how its political power has diminished and that it needs to get its message out to a whole new generation who don't understand what unions can do for them...

[SickOfTheOnePct]

47. Well put

Perhaps the numbers are a little off or way off, but there is little doubt that a number of union members voted for Walker in the recall. Enough to make the difference? I don't know.

But I don't see that it serves any tangible purpose to attack people like the OP when they voice frustration over supporting people that in some cases won't support themselves.

[KharmaTrain]

64. Finger Pointing...A DU Tradition...

Sadly there are some who prefer to blame rather than learn from this election and will be doomed to seeing the same results and doing even more finger pointing. Othesr are still in denial about the asskicking that happened and maybe, in time, they'll see clearer. For the rest of us, it's time to move on to what is sure to be a very ugly and hard fought battle ahead.

Cheers...

[dinopipie]

48. Back when I was living in Europe

I was taking the train on a short trip and suddenly the train stopped and all the workers were walking off the train. Not being current on the local politics I was informed that one of the bakers unions was on strike and the train workers were doing a wild cat strike in a show of solidarity for the bakers. Not a single person complained while the train was stopped on the tracks for about 2 hours. Most of us went to a local bar and drank with the workers from the train.

[tomkoop]

50. I see it at work

I am nonunion working next to union RN's. Most of them are too afraid to speak up to the powers that be. I think they are voting the way they are voting, because it is easier to be liked at work for going with the flow, than supposedly being looked down upon by company management.

0%, 1%, 2% raises over 3 years while the company made a couple billion is another reason their union is getting no membership support where I work.

[B Calm]

79. A union is strong as the membership. Maybe

if you joined it would help strengthen the union's bargaining power. By not joining the union, you're helping in it's demise and shooting yourself in the foot just for the managements entertainment. That's my thoughts. .

[tomkoop]

85. Can't join

The union is for nurses only. I am a technician.

[Bluenorthwest]

99. The fact that individuals are afraid of their bosses is why collective action is needed

The Union is not 'that nurse who says she is afraid of reprisal' the Union is all of the Nurses together, going to the table, dealing with safety issues, you name it. Of course the individuals feel fearful this is why they voted to act as a group, not as individuals.

[tomkoop]

123. YES

but...the union has had years to get things changed. Nothing is different. Fill out this unsafe staffing form and we'll talk to the manager is what they say.

Y ask for help when the union does not help?

I am pro union, was a Teamster member at Honeywell and AFL-CIO as well. Those unions got things done!! The MNA had better get it together or they will be voted out up here in Minnesota. Last contract got the members >0%, 1% and 2% raises over three years, higher health insurance premiums. While the CEO got 22.1% raise the year before, the President of a major unionized hospital got $422,000 raise as well. Same union negotiators!!

I think the climate around unions being less is part of the problem. Less strength in numbers nationwide and more greed inside the corporate world. Money is the power broker.

[drm604]

55. Why even ask this question?

Even if your 35% figure is correct, that means that most union members, 65%, did not vote for Walker.

Are you saying that we should question support for unions, because a minority of them voted for Walker?

[rucky]

57. Fear

The labor market is global, and if it makes business sense, companies will take the whole operation off shore. Workers know this and are afraid to fight back - to the point where even the threat to move off shore sends them retreating. So when their unions press on for wages and benefits that make sense in the US, many union members get skittish - or even blame their union for risking negotiating away their jobs completely.

Unions need to drive home a path to business growth that is tied to a well-skilled, well-paid labor force.

Now that the attack has moved into the public sector, the debate has moved to what skilled labor is worth to taxpayers in this country. Kochsuckers are implying the question, but doing so by attacking public employees. We're not stating our counter-position in a positive way because we're playing defense and counterattack.

Public employees unions need to drive home a path to community growth that is tied to a well-skilled, well-paid labor force.

I'm pretty sure that behind the scenes, smart union reps take the current reality offshoring and autsterity into account when they're negotiating, trying to make the business case for keeping a skilled union labor force and paying them a living wage. But that case is often hard to make in the current economic climate, especially when there are many workers willing to be employed without union protections - out of fear of the alternative (unemployment). I don't blame them. I was unemployed for two years. It sucks.

Part of the problem is that this is never publicly try to prove the worth of union labor - to the point where unions fail to convince their own members. When we don't address offshoring and austerity except to denounce it, our demands appear unreasonable and from a position of entitlement without a solid business case attached to it.

That's the public perception, but it doesn't have to be. There are simple ways to make the case for employing union labor, using historical data and common sense. Those arguments are all over DU and other progressive sites, but haven't really filtered into the mainstream.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

60. Spot on n/t

[Snotcicles]

61. Whether a member of a Union or not most workers receive residual benefit by the

mere presents of unions and collective bargaining. Unions have raised wage, health, and safety standards for all worker groups and most non-union workers get to freeload off of those hard fought battles. Maybe because of that gift it is easy to surrender those gains. If one did not have to endure the hardship, maybe one should not look a gift horse in the mouth.

[still_one]

71. Because of labor the recall happened, however, I do know this, because of labor Reagan won, and

they have slowly been getting screwed since

[Faygo Kid]

72. Faux News.

They actually think O'Lielly and Sean Vannity give two shits about them and their families.

[RufusTFirefly]

76. Bingo. Millions are voting against their best interests. And that includes union members.

Propaganda works best when you don't realize it's propaganda.

[rhett o rick]

74. Your logic is flawed, but welcome to DU.

You imply that union members arent supporting themselves doesnt even make sense. When a union member votes he thinks he is voting in his/her own best interest, therefore supporting his/her self.

Even if you statistics are correct, which I doubt, it means that most union members voted against Walker. Are you threatening those that did vote against Walker because others didnt?

Is your goal to convince all union members to vote Democratic in the future? If so your method wont work.

Most likely some union members did vote for Walker. Some are just idiots and do what Hannity tells them. Others think they are safe and the danger is only for others.

[Robb]

75. Then don't support unions.

Jesus fucking Christ. If this is all it takes, your support isn't worth the paper it's wiped on anyhow.

Any other progressive causes you want to toss on a single result?

[pintobean]

78. Well, I've read

somewhere that only about 80% of liberal Democrats support President Obama. That means 20% don't, so fuggemmall.


Your paper comment cracked me up.

[Robb]

139. Thanks. It just sort of came out.

[coalition_unwilling]

146. Bravo! This needed to be said! His support, shall we say, is

'paper thin'?

[trumad]

84. This is concern troll at its best....

and possibly one of the dumbest threads of 2012.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

86. In states without Right to Work...

There is no shortage of union members who hate unions.

My neighbor ended up a union member by way of a merger, he particularly hates his union because they seem far more interested in trying to make sure a psycho who followed a couple into a bar after a parking lot confrontation and assaulted both of them has a job to come back to after prison, than the three guys who were hurt when the lift-gates failed on some trucks, repeatedly.

[AllyCat]

87. As a current union member, I ask you to support worker rights!

Just because a group of people within another group vote or do something you don't like, your plan is going to not support those of us who were out there busting our tails to make change?

To answer your question (I assume that was your point...to ask a question, riiiiighhhttt??? Not spreading disinformation?), there are a lot of union folks out there in who were swayed by GOP talks in their areas saying Barrett or any Democrat were going to take away their guns. That is probably the most common thing heard in phone calls to union households per friends who phonebanked. Lots of people, not just union members, fell for the Barrett being soft on crime thing (the infamous dead baby commercial).

We are an organized group, but NOT homogeneous. I am aghast at the number who voted for him too. There are a lot of people I work with that wish our workplace was not unionized because they don't want to pay dues (seriously) and many are union members, but don't want to be.

[thesquanderer]

90. Not every union member supports unions, and even supporters may have other priorities

Some people are forced to join a union in order to work where they are working.

I'm sure there are anti-union and otherwise Republican people working in union shops just as there are pro-union people working in non-union shops, because getting a job doesn't always mean getting the job conditions you'd most like to have.

Some workers at these union shops may be philosophically anti-union; or perhaps more likely, they may resent seeing the dues come out of their paycheck if they don't see a concrete benefit. And there are unions out there who take their dues, while the employees don't actually see much, if any benefit. Not every union works out ideally, there are bad and even corrupt ones out there too.

Also, plenty of people are not single-issue voters, no matter how big the single issue is. People may be pro-union, but have other over-riding reasons to have preferred Walker over his challenger.

[stupidicus]

92. yep, the baby with the bathwater routine

that's like asking why cons not in unions vote against their self-interests, and being willing to punish the majority that supports them for the sins of the offenders. Gee, which side is it do you think that predominantly supports the "right to work" laws that share the same anti-union element?

Perhaps that's why in part, large or small, union membership has dwindled so in the last few decades - the lack of sufficient cohesion in their ranks introduced by rightwingnuts.

The better question is, why should union supporters (mostly lefties) get grief for things they have no responsibility for?

[Tom Rinaldo]

93. I think you are missing the point.

Unions don't do ideology screens on potential members, if you join the workforce of an employer you either are able to (in a "right to work" state) or are required to (everywhere else) join a union if that union is the recognized bargaining agent. Why is so much of the 99% Republican is the real question.

A 64% progressive vote is impressive from any large mass of citizens in this country. LBJ didn't get 64% of the vote in 1964 - not even near that. It's not like we are talking about Move On here. Leftist activists join Move On beecause they are leftist activists. Many members join unions because they have to, and sometimes through peer work group pressure.

If Union members voted 64% for recall that makes them one of the most Democratic voting groups in the state, probably second after African Americas or at least grouped in a clump with youth and latinos for second most loyal voting bloc. And though union members may have given Walker 36% of their votes - he didn't get 36% of Union money - he got zilch. Politically active Union members almost always work their asses off for Democrats.

[TheKentuckian]

94. So you are only going to support causes and rights that get 100% of their internal vote?

Democrats don't vote for Democrats at 100%. Gay people vote Republican at a similar clip. Poor people vote for Republicans. Public School teachers vote for candidates from either major party, no sense supporting them. Women often vote Republican at a much higher percentage, so no need to support gender equity and choice, women don't support such things.

The OP seems to be trying to find a justification to withdraw support and you still don't have it because you probably work for a living and once the unions are eliminated and reviled then they will come to crush your wages, benefits, and whatever little security you may have as well.

The entire argument is jacked up.

[Bluenorthwest]

96. The GLBT vote is around 75% and more Democratic.

After African Americans and Latinos, GLBT voters are the most Democratic of all population segments. The most Republican of course is Straight White Men.

[TheKentuckian]

109. Okay, so 25% defection is our line for support? Is 27% of union members (rather than 35% of

households) in the margin of error?

Also, you don't get historical average when going against a single special election. If I can find a single election where the gay vote was over 30% TeaPubliKlan. Over 25% (if that is our measure for whatever strange reason) then many instances will be available.

Womens issues and choice are definitely out, women are always above the 25% defection rate.

The OP demands 100% retention though so I can't think of a solitary group that "deserves" their support and your adjustment is nearly as meaningless.

Bickering over super-majorities of levels of internal support is goofy to justify support from those outside is goofy and nonsensical.

[Son of Gob]

100. The OP is disingenuous.

He's never supported unions. It's a ruse. It's classic divide and conquer concern trolling as stated upthread.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

124. Oh, no, I truly believe he's a 7%er who "works in the shadows"...

like some sort of caped crusader.

Kee-rist, the spelling and grammar alone are worth the price of admission.

[Son of Gob]

141. . . .

[coalition_unwilling]

147. Hah-hah. I was picking up exactly the same sort of

creepy vibe from the OP as the thread continued.

[demwing]

130. typical of many posts here

take a position, imagine it at it's most extreme, then attack the OP for being extreme

[brentspeak]

137. I see a reasoned response

And I also see a fabricated claim made by you of "an attack" on the OP.

Nice try.

[fishwax]

98. Union Members do support themselves. And you should support unions b/c it's the right thing to do.

[pennylane100]

110. You have every right to express frustration at union workers that vote for Walker.

I am also amazed that they would do that. I do not know why so many working and middle class people vote against their own economic interests. I think it is because they do not take the time to understand the issues or they have preconceived biases about the two parties.

I admire your support of Unions, especially in view of the fact that your economic well being will not be harmed when they are threatened. You certainly have the right to ask the question why help people who will not help themselves. It is a legitimate question and it does not mean you will stop supporting the many because of a few misguided ones.

This forum is supposed to be a place where we can discuss democratic politics in a civil atmosphere. If we have a point of view that others disagree with, we should be able to discuss our differences in a reasonable way. Unless that view is outside our democratic principles. It was appropriate for you to mention that you are in the seven percent group as it related to the subject. Many posters mention their economic status as it relates to their post and if is related to the post, it is relevant for all income groups. It is not a crime to do well in life and still care about other people.

[dinopipie]

116. What I find very interesting is the European Manufactures in the USA

Who have on a number of occasions openly stated that they think that American Workers who don't organize are basically nuts.

They have even stated that if the workers choose to be in a union they will give them a seat at the table just like they do in Europe.

Yet the workers choose to work for less in right to works states.

Management thinks they are fools but will gladly take advantage of them.

What is that saying..... the Lord helps those that help themselves.

[Zalatix]

125. You have to wonder why they moved those jobs here.

Is it because we're not unionized?

[pennylane100]

140. That would certainly seem like wasted opportunities.

Do you know of any specific cases. I would be very interested in knowing about them.

[demwing]

127. precisely, nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. Seriously in need of a history book or two

if you think any group has been 100% solid, you really need a lesson from history.

[demwing]

129. Just curious...where did the OP call for 100% solidity?

I missed that ...in fact, I missed the part where the OP called for anything, except for any Union members reading to offer their understanding as to why the WI voters acted as they did.

Get a history book? Really?

[pintobean]

132. Post #8 nt

[demwing]

133. Yeah, a demand for 100% would be pretty unrealistic

but do you really think the OP was being literal (I mean, since you know so much about the OP's inner motivations?)

[TheKentuckian]

138. The OP has been asked to clarify what they literally mean.

Is 10% defection tolerable, 20%, maybe 30%? We know 35% defection is past the point of wondering why bother.

Women vote TeaPubliKlan at a much higher rate and quite regularly so we know for sure we have plenty of grounds to wonder why we should support gender equity and choice, if not ample grounds to drop them. Look at the numbers.

The entire line of argument is preposterous. It also insinuates that there is some sort of political screening process at work or should be. Yes, some electricians, sanitation workers, teachers, plumbers, cops, paramedics, evidence techs, clerks, or whatever occupation will be Republicans and vote Republican.

Hell, Democrats don't vote Democrat 100% and that is the same actual group why would there be this expectation of 100% from a professional or trade organization (and yes that was the stated expectation and it was never backed off from).

You have no more insight into inner motivations than anyone else so there is no reason to be defensive of such motivations. The only way not to go by some conclusion of internal thought process is to go by what is actually stated which seems to be 100% loyalty (or there abouts) otherwise what the hell is the discussion and why don't we get to it once we all have some consensus of what it is the debate actually is.

What say you then? What % of internal support justifies solidarity with a cause, position, or policy? Or are we not even discussing that really but something else? If so what?

[demwing]

148. Can't speak forthe OP

but I don't believe the comment about 100% should be taken literally. It seemed to be no more than one of those moments where a person speaks liberally, such as "I don't get why ANYONE would say ___" or "I think EVERYONE can agree on ___."

If one can't speak liberally at DU, where can one?

If you are asking me though, I think a 10% variation of opinion from any group shouldn't set off any alarms.

[pintobean]

149. I answered your question

You obviously didn't read the thread before you peppered it with your snide little nuggets of wisdom. I don't know what the op is thinking, but I'll take his post at face value. Something you seem to only do if it doesn't make you look foolish.

[demwing]

150. Lol, you're a riot. If you don't know what the OP is thinking

then why write "Oh, I know what the OP means" in post #128?

You're so full of crap you make the toilette jealous.

[pintobean]

151. I was referring to your comments about

post #8, Mrs. Potts.

[demwing]

153. Sure.

you were...

[WillyT]

136. Here Is Why EVERYBODY Should Support The Unions...

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002793373

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002750391

Because it's to the benefit of ALL, INCLUDING the 1 Percent.

[FreeJoe]

142. I can think of reasons

Some union members may not share our views. They may be in a union for other reasons (required for the job, direct self-interest). It's possible that they support private sector unions but not public sector unions. It's possible that they have political interests more important to them than unionism. They might be anti-gay rights, pro-war, or pro-theocracy. People have lots of different interests and you shouldn't expect 100% of any group to share identical views. You may even have some that felt that a recall election set a bad precedent and that the issue should have been dealt with another way. People are individuals and they reach their own decisions. It's frustrating when the reach stupid decisions, but it is what it is.

[Zoeisright]

156. I agree.

[Iggo]

158. You shouldn't. You know you don't want to.