FL Attorney: Zimmerman legal team expected to request immunity hearing, could result in "game over"

[Amerigo Vespucci]

The nation's fixation on the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin has led many to question whether an impartial jury could be found for the trial of his killer, George Zimmerman.

But it's possible a judge, not a jury, will decide Zimmerman's fate. He says he fired in self-defense, and many expect his lawyers will eventually ask for an immunity hearing under Florida's controversial "stand your ground" law.

Often described as a "minitrial" in which the burden of proof is on the defense and the judge serves as jury, such hearings are unlike other criminal-justice proceedings. The lawyers' roles are reversed, the burden of proof is low, and the stakes couldn't be higher.

"If the judge dismisses the case, it's game over," says Eric Schwartzreich, a Fort Lauderdale attorney who has represented multiple "stand your ground" defendants since the law was passed in 2005.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-06-10/news/os-george-zimmerman-stand-your-ground-20120608_1_impartial-jury-immunity-hearing-defense-lawyers

[theaocp]

1. ...and Mr. Zimmerman will never get a restful night

for the rest of his life. Getting off like that will inflame so many people he will need to hole up in a neo-Nazi camp. What a nightmare.

[zeemike]

7. Or

He will become an even bigger right wing hero and be given his own reality show or do a gig and Fox News.
And should he dream about what he did it will be a pleasant one because he likes the idea of killing the bad guy...he probably dreamed about doing long before he did it.

[ArcticFox]

11. Or

They'll run him for President.

[zeemike]

44. He's not old enough.

But they could change that part of the constitution no problem if necessary.

[ArcticFox]

159. Details details

[Edweird]

121. A Hispanic named Zimmerman in a neo-nazi camp? Seriously?

[Lilyeye]

126. I wouldn't have believed it either

until I saw how stormfront and people like them defended the hell out of him. I see it all over the internet. Apparently killing a black teenager can make you a hero no matter who you are.

[Edweird]

128. Just because they applaud his action doesn't mean they would accept him.

[SaB2012]

125. As I pointed out below

The officers involved in the Rodney King beating aren't living in fear for their lives.

[murielm99]

2. Game over?

Game just beginning. There will be a lot of people in the streets if the case is dismissed. Get ready for a long, hot summer.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

3. Zimmerman would be MUCH BETTER OFF in prison.

As I've said here before, mommy came from Peru. If he gets off he needs to get on the first plane to Peru and move in with an aunt or uncle or cousin and live out the rest of his days far, far from the streets of Sanford (or any other street in the U.S.)

[SaB2012]

123. Comments like these strike me as rather inflammatory and, quire frankly, ignorant

The officers involved in the Rodney King beating are alive, well and aren't living in fear for their lives.

[Cave_Johnson]

130. Well..

First, I would bet that the majority of Americans couldn't call one of them by name or pick them out of a lineup. Most people in America are, in some sense, aware of who George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin are.

Second, common sense says that they did take some extra security precautions after the verdict was delivered.

There are legitimate threats to Zimmerman if he is not found guilty. As evidenced by that poor guy who got his old cell phone number and received threat after threat.

[SaB2012]

137. I respect your opinion, but don't agree

Perhaps for a brief time, Zimmerman will have to lay low. But saying he'll have to move out of the country for the rest of his life is pretty ridiculous.

Personally, I'm more worried that if Zimmerman gets off scot-free, we'll have another 1992 L.A. on our hands.

[KamaAina]

141. Only this time it won't be just L.A.

[SaB2012]

152. I agree, unfortunately.

[FarPoint]

163. Are you prepared?

Prepared for the projected outrage and riots?

[MADem]

4. Judges don't live in a vacuum.

I think any judge who rules to let that little shit go knows that his name will be Mudd (like the guy who fixed John Wilkes Booth's broken leg).

It could happen, but this smells like a Hail Mary from the defense, who are dealing with a client who is...how can I put this? Oh yes--a fucking LIAR.

There are also risks to asking for immunity: The hearing gives the state a preview of the defense's trial strategy. And if a defendant testifies to something damaging, it's likely to reappear at trial.

The outcome rests on the judge, who typically has a much greater legal understanding than a typical juror....In Zimmerman's case, a "stand your ground" claim would rest in the hands of Judge Kenneth Lester, the same judge who just threw Zimmerman back in jail after determining he misled the court about his finances.


Lawyers agree it's likely that Zimmerman would testify if there's an immunity hearing. Whether the judge would believe him remains to be seen.

"If a jury is told to weigh the credibility of witnesses, then the judge should have that same duty," Cobbin said. "The judge should definitely weight the credibility of every witness that comes forward."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-06-10/news/os-george-zimmerman-stand-your-ground-20120608_1_impartial-jury-immunity-hearing-defense-lawyers

[Amerigo Vespucci]

6. Good point, and...

...at this point, there is no reason whatsoever to trust the word of a man who has been caught in two lies.

[vaberella]

14. Three lies.

At his own bond hearing, that someone here said could be used against him in a hearing. He stated that he assumed Trayvon to be around his age (as though that was an excuse), yet while on the phone with the dispatcher he perfectly gave a description of Trayvon being in his late teens. I don't know how and when late teens was synonymous with late 20s.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

15. I missed that one...

...and it only takes one lie if the judge does his job.

[qazplm]

8. that's where he really screwed up

He had a shot at this as long as his credibility wasn't otherwise questionable. But now that he's lied under oath, simply so he'd pay a lower bond (I mean it's not like he would have been stuck in jail otherwise, just would have to had to pay more bond)...

Well, makes it hard for the Judge to just buy what he's selling, and the witnesses contradict each other so no help there.

[Life Long Dem]

5. I don't think the defense cares of the reaction in the streets.

If the lawyer wants to go with a judge over a jury it's their right. The outcome is dependent on the law. The way a jury is instructed to do the same.

[libodem]

9. If Travon was discovered laying face down

Was he not shot in the back? How is that standing your ground. Hot pursuit, shove and shoot?

[vaberella]

12. I don't know. It would fit the Zimmerman statement.

But the thing was his feet was pointing to the cement part belying Zimmerman's statement. Or simply Zimmerman moved the body.

[Cave_Johnson]

46. Martin was shot in the chest...

Upper left I believe , with no exit wound.

As per autopsy report from a few weeks ago.

[hack89]

68. He was shot in the chest. nt

[Mairead]

10. Given the realities of the situation

namely that

- Trayvon was behaving in a perfectly ordinary, lawful, non-threatening way, and

- Zimmerman was armed and confrontational though he had no reason to accost Trayvon (the dispatcher had tried to discourage him),

...it would be truly horrifying if Zimmerman were allowed to walk. That would be true even if it were proven (how?) that Trayvon struck the first blow.

Any normal Black teenager innocently going about his lawful business would have every reason to fear a armed White man in Florida approaching and aggressively questioning him. I can imagine Trayvon trying to ignore him and continue on home, Zimmerman grabbing his arm, and Trayvon hitting out in an attempt to escape the lunatic. Any sensible judge would picture much the same scene, I believe.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

13. Zimmerman has to PROVE that when the 911 operator said "you don't need to do that..."

...and he said "OK," we was walking AWAY, and Trayvon jumped HIM, and made him "fear for his life," thereby invoking "stand your ground."

That's going to be a STRETCH for a guy whose bail was revoked after he got caught in TWO lies.

[MADem]

17. Don't take this the wrong way, but "Be Careful, my ass!"

That young man did NOT DESERVE TO DIE.

I don't care if he took a shit on the principal's desk and smoked pot in church while grabbing his girlfriend's behind. I don't care if his frigging Facebook name was "White Supremacist"--but you are going to need to provide citations for your assertions.

Just because he might not have been a choir boy does not mean that George Zimmerman, hunter-murderer, had the right to kill that teen.

There are no issues of "mitigation" here--that kid DID NOT DESERVE TO DIE. He was walking home with candy and tea, talking to his girlfriend, and this nitwit stalked him and caused his death with his Tough Guy Gun--and he did this after a police dispatcher told him--quite specifically-- not to do that.

Welcome to DU, btw.

[kestrel91316]

20. Hey, GZ had every right to protect his community from that dangerous

and very uppity n----r. Anyone who isn't pure as the driven snow deserves to be raped (in the case of women) or killed (in the case of men).

Get up to speed, MADem!!!1!!11!!!

[MADem]

30. I swear, that is what I'm hearing from this, er, newcomer.

I think someone lost a few socks in the wash, but whatever! He's about as subtle as a train wreck...!

[kestrel91316]

50. You weren't hearing things, I figured it was a troll.

[Lilyeye]

129. That seems to be how they really think

If Trayvon was white I have no doubt that his past would be a non issue. And Trayvon was 6'0. Not the 6'2 that the idiot troll claimed he was. He was only 2 inches taller than Zimmerman. That's really not a significant difference.

[kestrel91316]

19. Gosh, thank you for your concern!! Where would DU be without

intrepid reporters like yourself!!

Enjoy your stay.

[Kali]

21. nice list of talking points

welcome to DU

[Amerigo Vespucci]

22. I'll have to check out Sean Hannity's Website for the full list of Trayvon Martin GOP talking points

I'll bet he left the toilet seat up all the time too...the goon.

Welcome to DU. You picked an odd way to join the discussion for your first post.

[FarPoint]

23. Everything listed, 1-5, is unrelated to the event of the shooting but since you are going there.,,

I understand Zimmerman had gonorrhea and was treated in early February 2012. It was not his first case. How does a married man get this STD? From a crack whoe maybe? Does this suggest Zimmerman has a drug problem?

Zimmerman displays characteristics in his personality seen with addicts as in paranoia, delusions of grandeur and he lies....

We can got there.

[MADem]

35. Gee--I've got a fight song for old George, then!

"Clap on!!! Clap off!!!! Clap on, clap off....THE CLAPPER!!!"

Looks like The Clapper will have to sit his ass down in jail for awhile...is that why his police escort on his return to jail was carrying a sack of prescription meds?

[yardwork]

29. Yeah, that's all been dragged over here before and most of it proven to be false.

Those are talking points from white supremacist sites. You might want to be more careful about sourcing your "information."

[Gormy Cuss]

37. Snopes is your friend.

For example, on the subject of alleged current pictures of Trayvon Martin:
http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/martin.asp

Now that you have the snopes URL, check out your other "suppressed information."

[Nancy Waterman]

24. That couldn't have happened

based on what the girlfriend said of the phone call right before the confrontation. Up until then, he was trying to get away.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

25. True.

What needs to be examined is that a guy who has been caught in multiple lies, and who has a history of a violent temper, will be attempting to tell "the truth."

[Spoonman]

142. Funny thing about our judicial system,

that you and many other here simply do not understand.

Zimmerman does not have to PROVE anything!

The prosecutor has to prove it!

[GeorgeGist]

18. No shit sherlock.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Part of the procedure

[ckoeber]

27. So, let's say George Zimmerman lied about everything ...

Two things still have to be proven by the prosecutor:

1. How did George Zimmerman exactly meet up with Trayvon Martin?

From the point George Zimmerman hung up the phone with the emergency services dispatcher to the point that he met Trayvon Martin we have zero (0) information. In order for the prosecutor's case to have any merit they need to prove that George Zimmerman kept looking/stalking Trayvon Martin.

Just because George Zimmerman lied about one thing doesn't mean the prosecutor's can count on that as their trump card; so far they have no solid evidence of him actually walking up to Trayvon Martin and confronting him.

2. Who started the physical altercation?

Again, same thing. No one knows who threw the first punch or initiated the physical altercation. You only have the witness on the phone saying she heard sounds of a scuffle. The defense can tear through that with ease. And if they trip her up on the stand it's over...

So, how do you get a conviction without these two cruicial pieces of information? Even if George Zimmerman lied I doubt you'd get a Judge or twelve jurors to just let the prosecutor's fill in the blanks without solid evidence substantiating their answers for these two questions.

[MADem]

28. Doesn't matter--Zimmerman was TOLD by competent police authority to sit his ass down and wait for

cops. He disregarded that directive and stalked and killed a teenager.

Everything after that is George's fault.

[ckoeber]

32. Actually ...

All he was told is "We don't need you to do that." from the emergency services dispatcher.

And he replied "OK".

What evidence is there that he did not in fact stop chasing after Trayvon Martin?

[MADem]

38. And what part of "We don't need you to do that" is unclear?

To say nothing of the acknowledging "OK?"

The evidence that he "did not in fact stop chasing after Trayvon Martin" is that one of Georgie's bullets ended up in Trayvon's chest. Had he not stalked and killed the kid, the bullet would have stayed in the gun.

Give it up. You're convincing no one with your lame Hannity talking points.

[ckoeber]

39. And there no possible was that another scenario took place?

Originally you said this: "Doesn't matter--Zimmerman was TOLD by competent police authority to sit his ass down and wait for cops."

So that is in fact not the case, based on the actual dispatch.

He could have been walking around, waiting for the cops, and he happened to meet Trayvon. He could have been walking back to his vehicle and Trayvon could have came up to him. He could have even been standing still after a certain point.

Point is, a million scenarios. You are assuming he kept chasing despite any actual evidence to that point.

Can you show me anything that says he RAN UP to Trayvon and found him?

[MADem]

59. You're trying--and failing--to play word games.

When competent authority--in this case, the dispatcher--says "You don't want to do that" that means "Don't fucking do that."

If you've been following the case--and plainly, you haven't--you would know he wouldn't have encountered Trayvon if he was just "walking around, waiting for the cops."

He chased that kid. The kid told his girlfriend that he was being chased by some weirdo. But hey...she doesn't count, eh? It's real easy to disregard her testimony, isn't it?

I find it very odd that you want to paint a teen ager as some big thug in order to justify this cretin killing him. Very odd indeed.

[ckoeber]

62. You sound so sure...

When competent authority--in this case, the dispatcher--says "You don't want to do that" that means "Don't fucking do that."

If you've been following the case--and plainly, you haven't--you would know he wouldn't have encountered Trayvon if he was just "walking around, waiting for the cops."

And how do you know that for sure? How is it that he could not have encountered Trayvon Martin whatsoever if he was waiting?

He chased that kid. The kid told his girlfriend that he was being chased by some weirdo. But hey...she doesn't count, eh? It's real easy to disregard her testimony, isn't it?

I addressed her testimony. (1) She wasn't there and (2) in taking in her testimony we still don't know how the encounter took place. Trayvon could have still initiated the encounter and it would still fit her testimony.

I find it very odd that you want to paint a teen ager as some big thug in order to justify this cretin killing him. Very odd indeed.

And now you are insinuating something that was never said.

[Life Long Dem]

72. I think some are dealing with O'Reilly "facts" here.

They don't want to see the point.

Like you said. "He could have been walking around, waiting for the cops, and he happened to meet Trayvon. He could have been walking back to his vehicle and Trayvon could have came up to him. He could have even been standing still after a certain point. "

[ckoeber]

74. Thanks ...

And that's not to say what other folks or the prosecution is saying isn't true.

But they are not proving their case beyond a reasonable doubt.

They took one angle and put the pedal to the medal.

[MADem]

77. I am ENTIRELY sure. And even more so about your motives here. nt

[ckoeber]

80. Yet you can't produce the evidence to back up your certainty...

You can only lay accusations against me ore beat around the bush.

You can't prove that George Zimmerman was chasing Trayvon Martin up until the point they met. You can only point to a witness on the phone.

You also cannot prove who exactly started the fight; again relying on the witness on the phone.

But we are sure of a conviction. 100% that there is no reasonable doubt.

And that's you're case.

[MADem]

95. You can't produce any "evidence" either. You're just talking a load of crapola.

You're not the defense attorney. Good thing, too, I think.

Let's wait for the trial and see who is right. I can wait. Trayvon can wait, too--six feet under. He's not going anywhere, because George Zimmerman killed the kid.

[ckoeber]

97. Right...

So you have based your assertions on....

Now, I haven't made an opinion either way. But I haven't become convinced that the prosecution has a case, especially after the original non-biased prosecutor didn't even try manslaughter due to lack of evidence.

[joeglow3]

147. You support a judicial system where the burden of proof is on the defense?

[MADem]

148. Where are you getting that crap?

No one here is "the prosecution" or "the defense."

[FarPoint]

45. The Dispatch Officer was speaking in layman's terms

for Zimmerman to "Stand Down"....meaning to back off, do not engage...to stop....

Zimmerman, in his delusional thinking...persuited the innocent teenager and shot him dead. That is why is is in JAIL.

[ckoeber]

48. Your making the same mistake ...

That MADem is making. You have no evidence that George Zimmerman didn't in fact stop.

What you know for certain is that the dispatcher said those words and George Zimmerman said "OK" to them.

What evidence do you have, AFTER THAT POINT, that George Zimmerman did in fact continue to follow/chase/look for Trayvon?

Saying that simply Trayvon is dead won't cut it; self-defense could have been involved.

[FarPoint]

52. I'm not making any mistake or error.

Zimmerman is a racist, vigilante murderer. It's simple....he wanted a kill, he needed a kill to satisfy his passion for racism.

He defied orders, chose to hunt down an innocent teenager walking home from the store as Martin "looked suspicious" to Zimmerman.... A teenager doing what most people do...walk in the neighborhood. Zimmerman shot and killed him for looking suspicious. Delusional thinking runs rampant with this racisit. Wanted to be a hero in his own mind.

His mug shot will soon be in Websters Dictionay for vigilante racisit.

[ckoeber]

53. Listen to yourself.

Re-read what you just wrote.

You have no evidence to back up this assertion: "He defied orders, chose to hunt down an innocent teenager walking home from the store as Martin "looked suspicious" to Zimmerman...."

And here's the thing you also haven't factored in: What the emergency services dispatcher asked him to do aren't "orders" that he needed to follow.

So (1) you don't know whether he in fact did stop and another scenario has taken place and (2) saying "we don't need you to do that" is in fact not an "order" but rather a suggestion from the dispatcher.

So what you are left with is a situation where George Zimmerman could have in fact stopped chasing Trayvon Martin and instead went to do something else (find a location to wait for police, head back to his vehicle, stood stationary, etc.) and then Trayvon Martin could have initiated the altercation (maybe he was afraid and felt he needed to end the situation).

When you have alternate scenarios such as the one I raised based on evidence you have what's called reasonable doubt.

Now you actually expect a Jury to convict based on these circumstances?

[FarPoint]

55. It's simple....

Zimmerman murdered a teenager walking home from the store because he looked suspicious to an armed vigilante. I do not embrace homicide.

[ckoeber]

56. Again...

It's not what you know, it's what you can prove.

Prove that George Zimmerman followed Trayvon Martin up until the point they met. Let's here exactly how they met.

And by the way, if you have actual evidence to back up what you say, the Prosecution would love to hear it because they don't have it.

[MADem]

60. Prove that George Zimmerman isn't a fucking liar who hid a passport for a quick getaway

and lied to the court about his hundreds of thousands of dollars that he got from his internet solicitations.

Yeah, he's credible. NOT.

Who's gonna believe anything that liar says? He's already lied to the court at least twice.

You're barking up the wrong tree, here.

[ckoeber]

61. So, you have no actual evidence that he followed Trayvon ...

From the point of the emergency call to the point that he met Trayvon.

Instead, you're just saying he's a liar.

So, you damaged his credibility. Great.

You (nor the prosecution) still haven't proved your case.

[MADem]

78. You didn't respond to my post. You tried to redirect. Sorry, no sale. nt

[ckoeber]

82. I already answered...

In my very first post on this subject. Assuming George Zimmerman said nothing but lies it still doesn't answer with proof two basic questions I posed earlier. Those are key to the case.

[JDPriestly]

108. The burden is on Zimmerman to provide the evidence and prove that he acted in

self-defense.

I think there was enough evidence to charge Zimmerman and that he should face a hearing, but what the outcome will be I don't know. It will probably be easier for either side to persuade a judge than to persuade a jury. The judge sees a lot of cases and assesses a lot of evidence.

One thing that could work against Zimmerman is a rumor I have heard that he told slightly different stories about the events at different times. We shall see what happens. You never know how credibility will be judged at trial.

So, Zimmerman gets his chance.
We have to remember that Trayvon Martin is the person who is dead. He was the victim. Whether Trayvon could have or would have killed Zimmerman if Zimmerman had not shot first . . . . . The facts will show this.

I suspect that we don't know what the young woman that Trayvon Martin was talking to on the phone when Trayvon was shot will testify. That will be quite important. Her credibility will be a big issue. That we don't know at all.

[ckoeber]

119. I respect you opinion...

I do think it will be more on the prosecutors end to prove but you make valid, rational points.

Unlike some folk who just have a conclusion and that's it...

[JDPriestly]

156. In any event, whatever the outcome, the trial or hearing will be a great solace

to Trayvon Martin's parents. They lost a 17-year-old boy. That is a grief from which, as I understand it, parents do not fully recover. An unimaginable grief.

So they will at least know what stories different people tell about what happened and have a better insight into the events that led to their son's death.

For me, the situation is tragic for all concerned and demonstrates the problems that arise when people who are not trained and experienced in law enforcement take revenge or security in their own hands. The judgment to cautiously assess a situation, to remove subjective reactions from their decision making under stress are missing and tragedies occur.

Of course, unfortunately, that can also happen when a trained police officer responds to a difficult situation, but it is, I hope, less likely.

[csziggy]

69. Trayvon Martin's body was found well over a hundred feet from Zimmerman's car

If Zimmerman was NOT following Martin, how did the final confrontation end that far away from his vehicle?

[ckoeber]

75. Good question...

And George Zimmerman will have to explain that.

However, it is entirely plausible that he was at a much further distance from his car originally as he was initially chasing Trayvon and was moving towards his car after his stopped chasing. As he was moving towards his car that's when he met Trayvon.

What I just said hasn't so far been disputed by the evidence.

[csziggy]

88. On the SPD recording you can hear when Zimmerman leaves his car

18 seconds before the dispatcher tells him, "We don't need you to do that." and Zimmerman says, "OK." In 18 seconds, Zimmerman could not have covered the distance between his car and where Martin's body was found.

Then Zimmerman was on the call for more than a minute before he ended the call. So the distance covered by Zimmerman before he agreed not to follow could have been retraced well before the end of his call and minutes before the final contact between Zimmerman and Martin.

So Zimmerman lied to the dispatcher when he acknowledged the request to not follow Martin. Then he either continued to follow WHILE on the phone with the dispatcher or he had stopped following then resumed once he was off the phone.

Either way, the stories as relayed to the media by SPD officers or by Zimmerman's friends and family do not fit the recording as released by SPD.

Zimmerman will have to convince the same judge who already knows that Zimmerman has lied in court to succeed in getting immunity under the SYG law. Somehow I don't think that judge will be persuaded by Zimmerman's ever changing stories - the various versions that do not agree with each other much less the evidence as cited in the indictment.

By allowing his family to lie about the money from the website and by allowing his lawyer to lie about the passport, Zimmerman has "poisoned the well" where he might have gotten off using SYG. If his case makes it to trial, given the location he might get lucky and get a jury that would believe his claims but at this point I am not sure about that. He'd be better off going for a deal and pleading guilty to a charge lesser than the second degree murder charge, IMO.

[ckoeber]

92. All good points...

18 seconds before the dispatcher tells him, "We don't need you to do that." and Zimmerman says, "OK." In 18 seconds, Zimmerman could not have covered the distance between his car and where Martin's body was found.

Then Zimmerman was on the call for more than a minute before he ended the call. So the distance covered by Zimmerman before he agreed not to follow could have been retraced well before the end of his call and minutes before the final contact between Zimmerman and Martin.

So Zimmerman lied to the dispatcher when he acknowledged the request to not follow Martin. Then he either continued to follow WHILE on the phone with the dispatcher or he had stopped following then resumed once he was off the phone.

We can't say George Zimmerman lied at that moment because he never said he went back to his vehicle right away, just that he was on his way back to the vehicle at the moment of the altercation.

On top of that even on the phone he was leery of going back to his vehicle because he stated himself on the dispatch that he didn't know where Trayvon Martin was.

Now, these are good points never the less. He'll have to show what he was doing for the 3-4 minutes between the call and when the altercation took place.

However the key here is that the prosecution will have to provide the brunt of the proof somehow. If George Zimmerman insists (which I believe he has at some point) that he went to the mailboxes to momentarily wait for police and then he headed back towards his vehicle it would be up for prosecution to disprove him.

Either way, the stories as relayed to the media by SPD officers or by Zimmerman's friends and family do not fit the recording as released by SPD.

Zimmerman will have to convince the same judge who already knows that Zimmerman has lied in court to succeed in getting immunity under the SYG law. Somehow I don't think that judge will be persuaded by Zimmerman's ever changing stories - the various versions that do not agree with each other much less the evidence as cited in the indictment.

By allowing his family to lie about the money from the website and by allowing his lawyer to lie about the passport, Zimmerman has "poisoned the well" where he might have gotten off using SYG. If his case makes it to trial, given the location he might get lucky and get a jury that would believe his claims but at this point I am not sure about that. He'd be better off going for a deal and pleading guilty to a charge lesser than the second degree murder charge, IMO.

No question that George Zimmerman lying has hurt his case but the damage ultimately won't result in a conviction.

The prosecution still needs to fill the holes and they can't depend on George Zimmerman falling apart to do so.

[JDPriestly]

111. Zimmerman will have to show, I believe, that he reasonably believed that Trayvon

posed a an imminent threat of death or great bodily injury to him.

Since Zimmerman knew he was pretty safe since he had a gun and the police they were on the way and since Trayvon Martin hadn't done anything wrong other than look around and walk through the development wearing a hoodie as far as we know, Zimmerman may have a lot to prove.

We shall see. We don't know what the evidence that is admitted into court will show.

[Spoonman]

143. I'm certain the prosecutor would love to speak with you!

You could hand him all the proof of your assertions?

You nor I have access to any of the evidence at hand, and are simply relying on the news media spin.

I for one refuse to condemn anyone based on the bullshit expelled from the ass of the media.

[vaberella]

103. The fact that he ended up in front of Trayvon while his car was parked yards away.

Dude...this is public knowledge.

[Fla_Democrat]

41. X-)

[yardwork]

31. We do know one fact for certain - Trayvon Martin is dead and George Zimmerman killed him.

The judge and jury is not going to overlook that point.

[ckoeber]

33. No question ...

But when you invoke an affirmative defense the burden of proof is still on the prosecutor to prove in fact that there was NO POSSIBLE WAY that this was self-defense.

Even if the Prosecution had one eye-witness to the whole thing that said something to the effect of "I saw George Zimmerman chase AND confront Trayvon Martin through and through" this case would be a slam dunk.

The prosecution does not have that. They have huge time gaps and witnesses conflict with each other.

Very bad.

[Daalalou]

40. IANAL

...but I see your point--without proof of what went down when the confrontation started, it might be easy for the defense to raise reasonable doubt (that this was in fact self-defense, and not murder) in the minds of the jury.

I keep coming back to a) Z's injuries not consistent with his story, or with anything life-threatening; and b) the single small lesion on TM's finger, which doesn't suggest that he was pounding on GZ as GZ claimed. But I don't know if that's enough to make the case.

[ckoeber]

42. The real kicker ...

Will be those images of the back of his head. You don't get that from simply a small scrape on something.

That will be the difference. Had Zimmerman just had the broken nose then he would be found guilty but those bruises and blood on the back of his head adds a lot to the defense's side.

I believe that until the prosecution can answer the questions I posed with evidence George Zimmerman is walking.

[FarPoint]

47. He's not walking to far at the moment...

I sense he will be incarcerated for this murder. He's guilty as hell of assassinating this teenager....in my opinion.

[ckoeber]

49. It seems like folks are just convicting based on how they feel or how the situation looks.

What happened to actually holding the prosecutor accountable and having her prove her case?

[yardwork]

70. Oh b.s. Zimmerman didn't have serious head injuries. If he had, they would have hospitalized him.

Scalp wounds bleed a lot. Zimmerman looked perfectly fine in the video when he is arriving at the police station. The EMTs even called off the ambulance. He was not seriously injured.

[ckoeber]

73. Fair enough...

However, you have a few problems with saying the injuries weren't serious:

(1). What is most relevant is the reasonable state of mind of George Zimmerman. Here is someone who is beating up on you while you are on the ground for whatever reason. How is Zimmerman going to ascertain, at that moment, whether the injuries he is receiving are serious or not? Should Zimmerman have waited until the injuries were serious in order to try and retaliate?

(2.) Saying scalp wounds bleed a lot is irrelevant to discerning how they go there. You don't get scalp wounds simply from a small bump when someone is punching you on the ground. You also don't get sharp wounds like that from simply punches, even if they weren't serious.

(3.) You can see in the video that multiple officers walked over to observe the wounds on his head. Subsequent police photos that there were quiet a few injuries suffered all around his face and head. Now, again, hindsight is twenty/twenty, so simply saying that upon review the injuries weren't serious is not the same as saying that at the time he was well aware of his injuries not being serious and therefore didn't need to fire his weapon.

[yardwork]

136. There is no evidence whatsoever that anybody was beating on Zimmerman.

If Trayvon tried to defend himself, he was within his rights according to the Stand Your Ground law. Trayvon was walking through the neighborhood minding his own business when he was attacked and killed by a vigilante with history of violent arrests.

[LanternWaste]

161. Easily received from getting out of the vehicle too quickly

"You don't get that from simply a small scrape on something..."

Easily received from getting out of the vehicle too quickly and banging head against door jam. I know this one from experience...

I imagine what you believe "the real kicker" is, and what prosecution presents are two wholly and separate things, and (as you have stated repeatedly that more than one possibility usually exists vis-a-vis evidence), the wounds could have been received under so many valid circumstances...

[Kingofalldems]

63. Did you join DU to get in on this thread?

Are you a member of a conservative website?

[ckoeber]

64. No, but we can't stay focused, huh...

Let's stick to the discussion at hand.

[MADem]

81. I think you should answer the 2nd question.

Your first post--and the subsequent ones as well-- are on this thread, so you protest too much that you didn't join to participate in this conversation.

[ckoeber]

84. I asked two basic questions ...

That you nor the Prosecution couldn't answer. Now, there will be a trial where both sides will air out their goods but I find it telling that some have decided George Zimmerman could not, in any way whatsoever, acted in self defense when the Prosecution can't even tell you how they met exactly or who through the first punch/shove.

[MADem]

85. Look--you're not the defense and I am not the prosecution.

It's pretty clear, though, that most if not all people here think that Zimmerman killed that kid. I don't get your signing up at this website to tout an opinion that is only going to earn you derision. I find THAT very "telling," and not in a good way.

Surely you have better things to do with your life?

I imagine the prosecution wouldn't proceed with a prosecution if they didn't feel they had a case. So let's just wait for the trial, mmmm-kay? I'm not buying a single thing you're trying to sell, here.

[ckoeber]

87. At least an admission ...

It's pretty clear, though, that most if not all people here think that Zimmerman killed that kid. I don't get your signing up at this website to tout an opinion that is only going to earn you derision. I find THAT very "telling," and not in a good way.

Perhaps I wanted to see what made people so sure of George Zimmerman's guilt. Maybe you could have just assumed one sought an honest discussion. I do hope you notice I managed to disagree with you without hurling any accusations at you.

Surely you have better things to do with your life?

Oh, so everyone here, including yourself, have nothing better to do?

I imagine the prosecution wouldn't proceed with a prosecution if they didn't feel they had a case. So let's just wait for the trial, mmmm-kay? I'm not buying a single thing you're trying to sell, here.

It's not about buying versus selling. You can know for 100% that someone is guilty and still that person walks (see Casey Anthony).

No, you think that the prosecution is malevolent in that they have a case, etc. but what you haven't considered so far is that maybe the prosecution doesn't have a case and instead shot for a "Hail Mary" so that they could placate the people.

It's interesting that the original prosecutor dropped the case even when the lead investigator asked for manslaughter. Why?

Lack of evidence.

[MADem]

91. You've been here before, haven't you? Your posting style is VERY familiar. nt

[ckoeber]

93. Your point is?

I just find it interesting that you'd tear me down instead of at least acknowledging that the prosecution doesn't have much of a case.

[MADem]

94. No tearing--I asked you a simple question. You don't like to answer those, I notice. nt

[ckoeber]

96. Questions such as who am I, what are my motives ...

Want my SSN, address, email, and favorite color too? /sarc

[MADem]

99. No--just your previous screen name(s). nt

[ckoeber]

100. Tell you what ...

Whatever your suspicions are, they are true.

There.

Now have you considered that the prosecution may not have a case?

[JDPriestly]

115. The prosecution has a case. Trayvon Martin is dead, and Zimmerman killed him.

The question is whether Zimmerman has the evidence to show that his killing Trayvon Martin was justified by a defense of self-defense. The question is whether the defense will prevail here.

[ckoeber]

122. Ahhh....

But remember, Zimmerman only has to raise doubt.

He has the injuries, the witnesses who say they saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, and the cries for help which, while not conclusive, would logically be him calling for help.

That's all pure evidence right there, not even his words at that point.

[JDPriestly]

154. Yes. Strong points in Zimmerman's favor, but then Zimmerman's first call to

911 in which he explains why he suspects Trayvon Martin and indicates that he is following Trayvon are problems for Zimmerman. Anyone's guess is what I think.

One problem is that Zimmerman will have to decide whether to testify. I cannot picture him making a very good witness. He sure made some bad mistakes at his bail hearing. But I could be wrong. You can never be sure.

[Electric Monk]

105. Every time I ask that my post gets hidden :(

You get a "so what?" reply instead.

Sigh...

[ckoeber]

106. Gotta know how to ask :)

[MADem]

107. The poster has admitted that s/he has been here before. nt

[ckoeber]

109. Yes, I am a secret spy... /sarc nt

[ckoeber]

110. Remind me who I work for again, MADem, I need to collect my check for my evil work committed here nt

[coalition_unwilling]

127. The prosecution "doesn't have much of a case"??? WTF have you been smoking?? How does Zimmerman

with loaded handgun come across TM and shoot him?? If GZ can't tell a convincing story that explains that, GZ is toast. Because a young man is dead who didn't need to die and GZ killed him. I'd say that GZ "doesn't have much of a case."

[ckoeber]

133. He does have a self-defense case ...

Here is what George Zimmerman has so far ...

1. Injuries to the head relatively consistent with the details he gave to the police, attorneys, etc. which were photographed either on the scene or at the police station.

2. Multiple witnesses, including a 13 year old boy, who say that Trayvon Martin was on top of George Zimmerman. One described Trayvon Martin beating on George Zimmerman "MMA style".

3. According to the girlfriend on the phone, George Zimmerman didn't walk up to Trayvon Martin and shoot him; at the bare minimum they exchanged words before any altercation ensued.

There is more, but those items are the top three. On top of that, I haven't even taken into account anything George Zimmerman said. All of these things are pure evidence. So, saying "How does Zimmerman with loaded handgun come across TM and shoot him??" isn't accurate because the evidence that the State collected doesn't even show that happened.

[coalition_unwilling]

135. What you call 'injuries to the head' were nothing more than minor scalp

lacerations, requiring no, repeat ZERO, medical attention. You can spin this all you like, but the fact remains that GZ suffered a couple minor scrapes, while TM is dead.

Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable and is no substitute for forensics.

According to the girlfriend's account of her conversation, TM said he was being followed by some creepy guy. In other words, TM claimed he was being stalked\hunted by a stranger with no legitimate reason for so doing. Are you denying that GZ was stalking TM that night? If GZ was not 'stalking' TM, then what in the fuck was GZ doing WITH A LOADED HANDGUN???

All of which is to say that you have not answered my question: how did GZ with a loaded handgun first encounter ("come across&quot TM and shoot him? If you cannot answer that question and support it with evidence, then GZ is toast and should be planning on spending the remainder of his life in prison.

I do see the possibility of a GZ plea (perhaps to manslaughter or negligent homicide) in return for a reduced sentence. But I see no way GZ can plausibly claim 'self defense' and expect that to fly, given what I know about the case currently.

However, and this is a big however, we have an adversarial justice system for a reason, one in which the state must prove its charges beyond a reasonable doubt before anyone is deprived of his or her liberty. GZ's defense team will probably try for a jury (assuming there's no plea) with one or more folks on it they can convince of 'reasonable doubt'.

[ckoeber]

138. Several clarifications need to be made ...

On what you said:

What you call 'injuries to the head' were nothing more than minor scalp lacerations, requiring no, repeat ZERO, medical attention. You can spin this all you like, but the fact remains that GZ suffered a couple minor scrapes, while TM is dead.

He was treated on the scene by the Emergency Response team.

Here is what you are missing. George Zimmerman claims he acted to PREVENT serious harm, which is the essence of self-defense.

How long should someone wait until they can retaliate?

According to the girlfriend's account of her conversation, TM said he was being followed by some creepy guy. In other words, TM claimed he was being stalked\hunted by a stranger with no legitimate reason for so doing. Are you denying that GZ was stalking TM that night? If GZ was not 'stalking' TM, then what in the fuck was GZ doing WITH A LOADED HANDGUN???

There was no question that George Zimmerman initially followed Trayvon Martin. It is his claim that he stopped after a certain point (after the dispatcher said "We do not need you to do that&quot .

As for the loaded gun, George Zimmerman has a conceal-and-carry permit. He was within legal bounds to have that gun on him and given the history of crime in the neighborhood no one would dispute why he had that gun in general.

I do see the possibility of a GZ plea (perhaps to manslaughter or negligent homicide) in return for a reduced sentence. But I see no way GZ can plausibly claim 'self defense' and expect that to fly, given what I know about the case currently.

The Prosecution is going to need a little biut more than what they have now to force George Zimmerman to take a plea deal. As it stands they don't have enough to dispute George Zimmerman's stance of self-defense.

However, and this is a big however, we have an adversarial justice system for a reason, one in which the state must prove its charges beyond a reasonable doubt before anyone is deprived of his or her liberty. GZ's defense team will probably try for a jury (assuming there's no plea) with one or more folks on it they can convince of 'reasonable doubt'.

Most cases like this boil down to the jury.

[LanternWaste]

162. Speculation on your part-

"at least acknowledging that the prosecution doesn't have much of a case..."

At best, mere speculation on your part-- the very thing you indict others for.

[JDPriestly]

113. I would not say that Zimmerman did or did not act in self-defense.

We haven't seen all the evidence yet. That's why a trial was necessary.

I think that the issue of self-defense should be up to a jury not a judge. That's because the judgment must be made as to whether Zimmerman reasonably feared Trayvon enough to justify Zimmerman's killing Trayvon.

Also there will be a question as to whether in fact Trayvon reasonably thought he needed to defend himself against Zimmerman.

It's going to be very interesting, and the trial is in my opinion necessary. But I could not predict how it will turn out. Impossible. You never know when you go into a courtroom what will happen.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

86. Hey, guess WHAT.

You've just joined this site. You don't get to tell long-term members what to do. You're not running the discussion.

[ckoeber]

89. And I have not...

I merely responded to accusations.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

90. BULLSHIT. n/t

[MADem]

79. He absolutely did--his first post was here.

I'd like to hear the answer to the 2nd question, too.

[ckoeber]

83. Oh, so we are now playing McCarthy, eh?

Again, more attacks against me.

[MADem]

98. That's not an attack, it's a statement of fact. nt

[ckoeber]

101. That's it. I am evil. There. Now you can be happy... nt

[Blue_Tires]

134. I can at least say the answer to the first one is yes

I'm pretty sure this is the same poster who comes to enlighten us in EVERY single goddamned Martin thread...He's had like 10 accounts banned already and just switches names when the heat becomes too much...

[Spoonman]

144. "Nice" Democrat VOTER

retention skills you got there!

I thought we were suppose to be open minded, considerate and encouraging of open discourse?

[Kingofalldems]

149. 'Democrat' VOTER retention eh?

You mean the Democrat party?

I'm not open minded with freepers and Cave invaders, OK?

[JDPriestly]

112. Are you sure that the burden of proof is on the prosecutor?

Do you have a statute or rule to back you up? Normally proving the elements of self-defense is the defendant's job. The prosecutor usually doesn't raise the issue of self-defense. The defendant does. And then seems to me it would be the defendant's burden to prove the defense that the defendant raises.

I'm not that familiar with Florida law. Could you show us the statutes or rules or jury instructions or what you are relying on that provide that the prosecutor has the burden of proof in a self-defense hearing?

[ckoeber]

116. See the link ...

Affirmative Defense

Essentially George Zimmerman just has to provide enough reasonable doubt.

He doesn't even need to prove his side 100%

[morningfog]

51. Oh look. Someone who signed up to DU to defend Zimmerman.

Welcome to DU.

[ckoeber]

54. Or rather ...

Came to ask the two questions I posed earlier. But it seems these questions weren't considered at all.

[morningfog]

57. Your questions are not accurate.

There is evidence that Zimmerman followed Martin. Maritn's phone call with his friend.

[ckoeber]

58. OK, and that's shaky at best ...

Let's take her testimony completely at wholesale (everything she said is true).

(1) She wasn't there...

(2) She says that at one point George Zimmerman lost Trayvon but then the "man was back". What does that mean? Did George Zimmerman walk up to Trayvon, or did Trayvon just see Zimmerman? Huge point of clarification needed.

She also says she overhears Trayvon initially asking "Why are you following me?"

So, at least from the Prosecution's own witness we have Trayvon initiating the conversation. She then hears a scuffle which she presumes to be Zimmerman pushing Trayvon but in reality it could have gone either way.

Her testimony in many ways helps Zimmerman's case of self-defense as much as it helps the Prosecution.

[morningfog]

66. I see where you are coming from.

Crystal clear.

Edit to add: Shaky is more than zero (0).

[ckoeber]

67. True, it is more than zero (0) ...

But that's still one hell of a hole for the prosecutors.

Some of the people making comments are not getting that the prosecution's case so far amounts to the following:

1. 911 Call. Dispatcher told Zimmerman to stop. He may or may not have.

2. ????????????????????

3. Physical altercation followed by gunshot.

All they have for #2 is a witness who has changed her testimony from seeing two men running to seeing one and the girlfriend on the phone who wasn't there.

But somehow that is a case.

[JDPriestly]

118. Do you think that Zimmerman will testify?

Because if he does, he faces cross-examination, and that can be really, really tough.

[ckoeber]

120. Yes...

He'll have to testify, especially now that he was hit on his credibility via the bail hearing.

He'll need to clean that up as well as answer key questions at trial.

Now, if he has told different variations of his story that will hurt him big time.

Some folk latched on to his varying testimony as to what age he thought Trayvon was but that is minor.

The key point will come when he talks about what he did during and right after the end of the 911 call.

[JDPriestly]

155. Agreed. This could go either way.

But Trayvon Martin's parents will at least find out what Zimmerman and other witnesses say happened -- and get a transcript of the testimony, I hope.

Somehow I think that is really important here.

Trayvon Martin was 17. He was their child. The grief from this kind of loss must be devastating. I cannot imagine it. What horror!

[JDPriestly]

117. Your post demonstrates quite well one of the issues that has to be decided in court.

Who is credible? You can't tell from hearing a series of tapes or reading blogs on the internet. The judge or jury will have to decide credibility.

Personally, I think that a defendant has an advantage if a jury decides credibility rather than a judge. But that's just my opinion. We shall see what happens here.

[ckoeber]

124. 100% agree...

Juries are not experienced with handling the ways a defense can raise doubt or cross-examine even innocent witnesses (such as the girlfriend). And the defense' goal is all about raising doubt.

[juniorbonner]

160. here is what the prosecution can present

GZ ran, walked or jogged away from his vehicle for around 24 seconds, as can be heard on the recorded call. He then spent the next few minutes NOT returning to his vehicle, although he clearly had the time to do so. He was engaged in some activity, which GZ's surrogates classify as "looking for an address" and "returning to his vehicle." All well and good, but if he found an address he he failed to call one in. And if he was returning to his vehicle, what was he doing between the townhouses well off his path to do so? The location of the body proves at some point he stopped the activity of returning to(wards) his vehicle.

The last thing he admitted he was doing was following the teen. After that admission, he still kept running or at least making wind noises with his phone for a little while longer. Then he told the operator he would NOT be at his vehicle by the cut thru when police arrived, but that they should call him to find his location.

If a rat gets to a dead end in a maze and turns around, has he given up looking for the cheese?

And what actually HAPPENED? Well, we don't fully know except that all of the evidence in the form of dropped objects are found on or near the dog walk path between the town homes - NOT the route back to GZ's truck, according to the story his own father - who was present at the videotaped walk thru the next day - tells the press. He should know. Keep in mind of course that the prosecution already knows what GZ told the cops, and where he pointed on the video tape, etc. and if it matches the evidence like the dropped objects.

Here's what HAPPENED - the cops arrived to find a dead unarmed teen and George holding "the smoking gun" and admitting he was the killer. All the rest is George's account. And it better match the witness statements - the one where they describe a fight that MOVED and where all of the teen's dropped objects are at least 30 feet south of the T.

So what we are left with is the idea that GZ tells a tale that is inconsistent and doesn't match the witness statements or physical evidence in the case. Yes, he was battered, and yes he MAY be the one yelling for help - I'm guessing the audio will be disputed both ways by experts and essentially a wash to the jury. But does George tell a tale like his father did where he was sucker punched to the ground by the first blow AS he was returning on the pathway to his vehicle? Because that leaves out the foot chase, the sounds of a fight that moved, and fails to account for the scattered "debris field" of dropped objects well south of his innocent path to his vehicle. So George's story is either different from his father's, or it's the same false narrative.

[michaelcobb]

34. Like the Wisconsin recall, righties will end up declaring "victory."

While I think he is guilty as hell., I think he will walk due to a lack of evidence. Police botched the initital investigation.

[Auntie Bush]

36. He'd be hunted down for the rest of his life...maybe even the judge.

[Fla_Democrat]

43. Why would the judge hunt him down?

[ctaylors6]

145. 2 judges recused themselves before

the current one. I would think I'd be happy to be disqualified if I were a judge appointed to this case.

[killbotfactory]

65. So you can shoot someone, and claim self defense...

And if no one around saw enough to dispute your claim, you can get off scott-free under the SYG Law.

Yeah, that's a good precedent to set. Well played, Florida.

[yardwork]

71. You can only do that if you are not black, apparently.

If you are a black woman in Florida and you shoot, say, into the ceiling to scare off your attacker, you will be put in prison for 20 years, even though nobody was injured but you (by the abuser you were trying to scare off).

[vaberella]

104. She shot in the direction of her attacker, where there were two children next to him.

She was convicted mainly because of child endangerment. And I agreed with that decision.

[hack89]

139. You would get off scott free regardless of the law.

we don't convict people in America without actual proof beyond a reasonable doubt. SYG doesn't change that fact. Unless the prosecutor can produce evidence that undermines Zimmerman's story he should go free. He does not have to prove his innocence.

Now in this case the prosecutor seems to think she has an actual case so time will tell.

[ctaylors6]

150. I agree except for immunity hearing. FL SYG law

made 2 significant changes, IMO: (1) the elimination of duty to retreat from the general self-defense justification, and (2) the immunity hearing.

The first thing is fairly common across the states, and I'm not sure it would be all that determinative here.

The immunity hearing is MUCH more unusual (maybe unique to FL?). It's basically a mini-trial before the trial. The burden is shifted to the defense, and there's no jury. Basically the judge will if by a preponderance of the evidence Z was acting in self defense.

[hack89]

151. It is going to be an interesting process

I bet the DA is praying for a plea bargain.

[The Second Stone]

76. There is no way any sane judge

would call this self-defense. The Zimmerman chased Martin down and started a fight.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

132. Judges interperet Laws and Juries Interperet actions.

Unfortunately for your ascertion, it's a jury of peers that determines if it will be called self defense.
Just remember, think of how stupid the average person is (IQ=100) and half of everybody is dumber than that.

[hack89]

140. There are specific situations in the law where an aggressor

can claim self defense.

Having your head pounded into the concrete and thinking you are going to die is one of them. Go read the law if you doubt me.

There is good legal reasons he is telling the story he is telling.

[The Second Stone]

157. the OP suggests that Florida law entitles the

judge to make a pre-jury ruling, which is why I posted what I did. I do not think this judge, who has already accused Zimmerman of being a liar, will put his reputation on the line for Zimmerman.

As for a jury, this is a decision for a jury to make, and I, for one, do not know what the jury will decide.

[sarisataka]

102. In Z's Case

I think it would not be a good idea.

He has little credibility with the judge
If he testifies the prosecution will go after him like a dog on meat to punch holes in his story
If/when the judge denies immunity you can bet your bottom dollar that will be used at the trial to weaken any SD claim

Better from his POV to just go to the jury and take his chances.

[shimonitanegi]

114. Zimmerman's apologists always ignore Martin's girlfriend's testimony.

They intentionally omit her version of events.
I think that a Jury will believe her who has no motive to lie over a serial liar who has every motive to lie.

[magical thyme]

131. this has been the situation all along, despite some posters insistence that Zimmerman wouldn't have

to take the stand. Nothing really new here.

It is why it was so important that Zimmerman was caught lying under oath to the judge. He also lied in his apology when he claimed he didn't realize how much younger Martin was, since in his 911 call he called him a teenager. His credibility is now in the tank with the judge, thanks to his big, fat mouth.

Once he's on the stand and the prosecution can start seriously questioning him, and he will be tying himself into knots trying to make his various versions of events fit each other and the evidence.

Who knows what else he and his wife discussed in their "coded" phone calls. The prosecution has already demonstrated up until now they were using as little evidence as possible, and as much as necessary to move forward, all the while ensuring him plenty of rope with which to hang himself.

It was shocking to me that the defense attorney put his own neck on the line with the claim that he was holding the passport in his own safe deposit box and "forgot" to turn it in. Totally not believable, especially in light of the jail phone conversations, but I'm guessing that he's counting on some "lawyer's code" to protect him. A judge would have to be pretty pissed off to question the veracity of a professional colleague.

In any event, Zimmerman's entire defense rests on this hearing. The prosecution has played it safe and cautious up until now. This is where I expect they will go to the mat standing their own ground.

[Horse with no Name]

146. Maybe he and Casey Anthony will hook up

Have a few kids....

Seriously?

I will NEVER set foot in that ignorant state.

[libodem]

153. I second that

Ignorant! Never!

[Happydayz]

158. This would be the freepers wet dream to see a murderer of an innocent black teen walk free.

This cannot happen!!!