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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOne thing I really don't get is why cops are so quick to shoot African American men.
What is creating the feeling in police that they have to kill someone who isn't directly threatening them?
I know all the arguments about racism, of course, but that still doesn't feel like enough to cause so many of these incidents.
The cop holding the gun in the car window sounded terrified. Was he terrified because of realization of what he had done or was he terrified of the black couple in the car?
Are there experiences that police often encounter that create this paranoia, experiences that we never hear about?
Are police trained that every young black man is lethal threat no matter how innocent seeming?
What creates this extreme fear of one segment of our population?
There are young gangs of color that are dangerous, of course, but average people who are going about their business, why is this so often considered a serious threat?
I just don't get it.
I wish someone in law enforcement could point out specifically where this paranoia comes from because if we don't understand why police do these things we can't effectively push for reform.
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Blanks
(4,835 posts)Especially when the guy is in the car with his family.
People that afraid should find another line of work.
brush
(53,787 posts)That cop in the video could hardly control his emotions, and still kept the gun pointing into the car at the woman and little girl after shooting the driver.
Cowardly sociopaths like that should be nowhere near a badge and gun.
Response to Kablooie (Original post)
Post removed
tonyt53
(5,737 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)I have been thinking about this. They have created the young black man greater than life. They have made the young black man so very very beyond human, that lethal force is the only way to protect self. All delusions. But, I think there is something in that. Create groups as subhuman. For a Turbin to cause such fear, is having created muslim as subhuman. We certainly have done this with women, allowing the different rules.
Whites are so so so fearful of blacks, and do not see them as the same as white counterparts.
Something like that. I am not sure... but, I have been considering why they are so fearful, created violence with black men greater than life, but can go hand to hand with a white.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)black people are the ones who should be fearful of white people and the police. Whites were the ones mistreating blacks, not the other way around. So why are white people so fearful of blacks when blacks have done NOTHING to them? That's the question that should be asked.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)reason for a black to have fear of whites. Or a woman to have fear of a man. But, there is no rational reason to have whites to so disproportionately have that fear of blacks, that they would have to resort to immediately shooting, out of fear. We watch cops continually face a white man with a gun. But they do not see the black man, without a gun in the same way. The threat is that much higher for them. That is what I am trying to understand. The irrational fear of black men.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)
Igel
(35,320 posts)Most violent crime is intraracial. Clearly and unequivocally.
There is a set of interracial homicides. About half in any given year are reported to have black perpetrators, which is not what you expect if violence was random. Pick a few examples of this for the media and you know what you get? Statistically-backed evidence that whites are under siege from blacks. Note that the black interracial homicide rate a bit higher than the proportion of intraracial homicides, but not outrageously higher. Most interracial violence happens during some other sort of criminal behavior or due to gangs fighting. In any event, there's something non-random going on in the homicide stats, and that can be exaggerated into some statements we think of as truly racist. It's an easy risk--many Americans exaggerate the risk of dying in a terrorist attack, for all the same reasons. Low risk of incident happening, but bad consequences if it does, plus the fact that we don't stop and think about the actual numbers involved and how they relate to other numbers that we don't notice.
The first thing that this thread needs is for somebody to sort out exactly what the unexpected police-kill-blacks death toll is. We know that over half of police-kill-civilian deaths are whites. The remaining "less than half" are blacks and Latinos and Asians, and in that "less than half" we'd have to identify just the number of blacks. Many people erase Latinos and Asians from their narrative. Then from that could we derive a baseline "this is what we'd expect in the absence of any race- or ethnicity-based difference in behavior by blacks, whites, Latinos, Asians and police."
What's left is the amount that could be imputed to police racism. But then we'd have to deal with the fact that different age groups have different rates of interaction--16-25 leads in crime, and that age group is disproportionately non-white. We lke to excuse some crime by saying poverty predisposes to crime and violence, but that bites us in the ass because it means that the numbers also have to be controlled for that. Etc. It's not a trivial task, but it's one that's needed.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)And...
According to the US Department of Justice statistics, 84 percent of white people killed every year are killed by other whites. In 2011, there were more cases of whites killing whites than there were of blacks killing blacks. Between 1980 to 2008, a majority (53.3 percent) of gang-related murders were committed by white people, with a majority of the homicide victims being white as well.
In America, whites commit the majority of crimes. What’s even more troubling is that they are also responsible for a vast majority of violent crimes. In 2013, whites led all other groups in aggravated assault, larceny-theft, arson, weapons-carrying, and vandalism. When it comes to sexual assault, whites take the forcible rape cake. They are also more likely to kill children, the elderly, family members, their significant others, and even themselves! They commit more sex-related crimes, gang related crimes, and are more likely to kill at their places of employment. In 2013, an estimated 10,076 people died in the U.S. due to drunk driving crashes. Driving while drunk is almost exclusively a white crime because everyone knows black people prefer to drink on their porches or inside their homes.
Here are the FBI Statistics:
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls
Stop listening to Donald Trump and right wing propaganda!
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)We are sitting here working toward a more just society while having to fight arguments like this. The propaganda is so entrenched that tens of millions are still arguing the first step. The truth.
At a higher level, it berns me because in my opinion this debate is difficult to have in honest. POC should have a statistically higher rate of crime when viewed proportionally. It's a part of societies that suppress certain groups. Holding them in or pulling them down to lower economic rungs. Education systems that are often inferior to those in predominately white areas. Minor arrests leaving an enormous percent of certain groups with criminal records. The list goes on. They all lead to conditions that are ripe for fostering criminal activity. That in itself is a big part of the seemingly stagnant position we are in.
The whole statistical argument often seems like a distraction. I'm not saying that is what you are doing. I'm saying it's sad the argument isn't past this. It's like step one and I even find the base of the argument a bit faulty in multiple ways. The record has to be correct as you have done. It shouldn't have to be.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)have these conversations. Baton Rouge, the killing, murder. Simple, murder. Baton Rogue a year ago or so had a float mocking a young woman, her rape by a relative somehow. The man is known in Baton Rouge. It was a given he did it. The police had a float mocking the girl.
I hear they also had a float mocking BLM and cops killing black men.
(do not tell me the police are not a HUGE part of the problem).
In Gentry, a part of New Orleans, last week, I watched a video. They most arrests, per citizens. And the number of black people with petty tickets ect.... filed against them. It is literally Gentrey's fund for the town.
My son texted me telling me to google the name. I had already read up on it. He is so angry. Right in the middle of it in NEw Orleans, and the political of it, because he has become active and already dealing with the bigoted shit.
Not a little bit later, we are hearing another black man murdered.
I can go one and on. A father that said just a month ago. Europe has the right to not want immigrants. The black crime in U.S. and going after cops. He is old now, but he was not that man. He was the most fair, just and balanced man there is. He is gone.
Reading and thinking.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)...and I believe a racist one at that, I have to try to step up and do something about it.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I think it's clever your premise is reliant on data and you speak of data, yet show no data. Bias can do that to a person... 
July
(4,750 posts)Even though most African-American families have roots in the U.S. that go back much farther than most white Americans' families. (Yes, I know a few Mayflower descendents, but a great many of us come from Irish, Jewish, Italian, Polish, Greek, Swedish, Norwegian, etc. families who got here in the latter half of the 19th century, long after today's African-American's ancestors arrived).
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)
underpants
(182,826 posts)Thanks.
mythology
(9,527 posts)and we were to as quickly as possible select if the second image was a weapon or a tool. I don't know if the speed of my responses changed, but I know I definitely made more mistakes in the wrong direction when shown a black or hispanic face and then a tool than I did with white faces (I am white). It was rather eye opening for me.
I think the cop in the Minneapolis case was probably primed by Castile saying he had a concealed carry permit. So his mind was already on the fact that Castile had a gun. I think that's rather irrational as I can't imagine somebody telling a cop that they have a concealed gun right before pulling it out to shoot the cop. I think the cop panicked and fucked up very very badly. Could Castile have been more clear in explaining to the cop that he was going for his license, or waiting for the cop to respond after being informed of the concealed carry? Possibly as the recording started after that. But listening to the cop's voice, it sounds like he had no idea what he was doing after the shooting.
It is unfortunate that you have to speak slowly and move as if in slow motion in front of cops, but generally making rapid moves in front of people who have been conditioned (inaccurately) that everybody is a threat, it's best to make it clear that you aren't. It's kind of like dealing with an abused dog. Don't make fast moves, or loud noises, do your best to look non-threatening.
The longer term solution to to begin giving cops much more effective training, doing away with much of the militarization, bringing back more community policing, but in dealing with the short term, we as the public have to recognize that cops have been lied to about the likelihood of experiencing on the job violence and have had racist notions drilled into them (as we all have) and that it will take time to change that.
HipChick
(25,485 posts)Black lives don't matter to them..
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)But (and I can't quite locate the cite in this moment but will keep trying) I'm pretty sure I've seen data that black cops kill black people at a much higher rate than they kill white people, essentially inline with white cops. If my memory errs, it is certainly true that black cops also have killed unarmed blacks. We can assume black lives matter to them at least in general. Even though only an idiot would deny racism is far too virulent amongst police (well, everybody else too really) I'm wondering if a siege mentality of us vs. them in cops in general isn't a major factor, where "them" factors in race as well as perceived criminality, class, attitude etc.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that. Even women will stand in patriarchy against fellow women because of a conditioned norm.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Add that with the larger aspects of systemic and societal racism.
Response to Kablooie (Original post)
rjsquirrel This message was self-deleted by its author.
BumRushDaShow
(129,087 posts)"We are culturally conditioned to believe that white is superior, black is inferior, and the manifestation of that cultural conditioning is that blacks are undervalued, underestimated, and marginalized".
Anyone remember this? Fortunately some clergy stepped up to the plate with some alternatives, although the alternatives fell on deaf ears as they would have considered it unconscionable to make any substitutions, so they eventually banned the practice.
Mother Jones had an interesting article about research on the phenomena.
(Edit: Post #5 beat me to it. 
)
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)There is actually a lot of research that provides answers that could be used to combat unconcious biases...
Although these studies reveal subconscious racist behaviors that may be beyond one’s immediate control, they also offer solutions to the problem of white officers’ tendency to overreact in situations involving black suspects. First of all, all of us, including police officers and other figures of authority, must realize that these racial biases are real and prevalent. If we are aware of our innate predispositions then we can make a conscious effort to regulate our behavior. For instance, if a police officer is in a situation where his life is not being immediately threatened, he should go through the effort of assessing the situation logically before acting to ensure that he is not overreacting or using excessive force. Additionally, perhaps psychological and behavioral measures, such as surveys and visual computer tasks that test for implicit racial biases should be implemented as screening measures for police. If an officer does in fact exhibit these biases, he could be subjected to more in-depth training that can help mitigate these effects. Psychologists also have attention training tasks that can help dissolve cognitive biases, which can be provided to those at risk through computer apps.
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/neuroscience-behind-why-white-cops-kill-black-men
The Harvard implicit bias test is one a lot of people find surprising. The point is to identify something that can and should be corrected rather than to provide a justification for behaviors that are based on involuntary perceptions.
Police departments have these tools at their disposal, but I have not learned of widespread us. "I was afraid" should not be enough, but the laws have been written so that it is, thus accomodating implicit bias rather than addressing potential fallout from it.
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html
coco77
(1,327 posts)black people are not human and are from another planet.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)...between that minority of black people, largely young men with gang affiliations, who commit so many violent crimes from all black people or even all black males of a certain age. It's not dissimilar to how so many can't differentiate between radical Islamists and all Muslims.
Attributing a characteristic limited to a specific subset to the larger set, basically...a sadly common bit of fallacious thinking. 
alarimer
(16,245 posts)And many cops don't actually live in the communities they serve, which is a problem. I think they'd be less likely to shoot someone they actually know.
But I think it is the quasi-military training. That teaches people that other people are the enemy, because it's hard for a normal person to kill someone if they believe they are human beings like themselves. I would guess people with too much empathy are weeded out.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I think fear is behind the national obsession with guns, too.
The fear dials into a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of reality, at its core, IMHO but that is probably a philosophical discussion better suited for somewhere like the Buddhism group.
Cosmocat
(14,565 posts)It seethes from people in the gun culture ...
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Right wing youtuber and blogger, surprise surprise. The folks around him did an excellent job of de-escalating.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)for a gun. Even in my days of Reno, a single young woman, playing in the early hours of the morning, I was cautious, but never thought a gun would benefit me. And I always felt safe in my home, for the most part. There are so many grown men I know, that can well handle themselves, live in areas that are not risky at all, and they do not have the threat of being female, so fearful that they have the gun to protect.
I haven't really been able to reconcile that.
My thought was that they have such a massive responsibility of being the protector, from the youngest of age. Seems to be their greatest role as a man, and maybe that is the need for the gun, .... need to protect, always conscious of the possibility of harm. Forethought. No failure allowed.. Because otherwise, it doesn't make sense. These people, men, in safe neighborhoods, no risky behaviors, feeling the need to always be ready.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)that could be described as objective reality, that's part of it.
I mean, in my opinion it's helpful to understand that we- all of us- really exist most of the time in a movie or narrative of our own creation. We move through the world but it is defined in large part by our own perceptions, and more importantly, by the interpretations we put on those perceptions.
Which is how, I believe, you end up with a situation where Philando Castile, reaching for his license and registration, informing the cop that he is a licensed firearm carrier, girlfriend and 4 year old in the car, pulled over for a "broken taillight", becomes a "dangerous perp- he was reaching for it!". The cop saw "black man", + heard "firearm", + saw "reaching".
Paranoia. Fear. A script playing out in the officer's head, and nowhere else.
And the results are beyond tragic, obviously.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)This is good Warren. Thanks. And I certainly agree, we create. How ever one chooses to explain it, we create our reality. For sure.
Matrosov
(1,098 posts)At least that's what many white people have been telling themselves over several hundred years now. Supposedly African Americans made for excellent slaves because of their Hulk-like strength, but at the same time, you needed to keep a close eye on them so they didn't go on a rampage and either kill the plantation owner or rape his blond, blue eyed wife/daughter. Some whites still believe that idiocy.
I think in many of these cases law enforcement is very trigger happy and don't give African Americans the same consideration as they do whites, not because they are consciously eager to injure or kill African Americans, but because they believe in these racist stereotypes and are actually afraid for their safety in the presence of these 'dumb brutes.'
beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)and then there is the steroid use....the mantra if they screw up...they will be covered....and the overriding issue as always...racism....
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)The cop in the sterling case wasn't necessary fat, but he was a bit overweight. I doubt he or most cops are using steroids.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)My son went to school with this boy. I hear lots of stories, absolutely pick on and not respected. He wants to be a cop so bad. 5'7", nothing on him. I can take him down. Really really wants to be a cop. Has gone thru cop school. Finally passing cop test, carrying the 50lb bag a certain distance, under a particular time.
He has an issue with an eye that he has to turn his head, and stick his face into the screen, to read something on the computer.
22. Because his father was soldier and all that. Still is.
He is waiting to hear. If he will get hired. He was in a town an hour away, but he got fuckin homesick. Lol. Oh lordy, let them deny him.
So..... ya. I can see it.
craigmatic
(4,510 posts)they join the police so they can get action and they associate black people with crime which is ironic considering that this country was founded on theft and genocide.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)Yes!
Kablooie
(18,634 posts)Does it happen often, which would give some reason for the jumpiness, or is it a rare occurrence which leaves us with pure propagandistic racism as a cause.
Also, how does it compare to the similar situation with young white men?
Is the threat really that much higher with black interactions than with white?
I wish there was data available about these things.
All the info I seem to see is anecdotal which is ultimately unreliable.