General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBeing confronted by armed strangers in what should be a secure place...
PatrickforO
(14,592 posts)Hit them in the pocketbook. They will only listen if their precious profits go down.
mia
(8,363 posts)A friend passed this message on to me.
tblue37
(65,490 posts)http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/07/16/open-carry-guns-restaurants-companies_n_7802468.html
The open carry proponents squawk and threaten boycotts, and that has cowed some businesses, but when other patrons have made clear that they are more numerous than the open carry fanatics and even more willing to avoid businesses that allow open carry, at least some stores have asked customers to not display their guns, and some have actually gone beyond merely asking to forbidding open carry.
There are probably more anti than pro open carry people, so if they make their wishes known the way the aggressively vocal open carry activists do, I believe more businesses will ban open carry on their premises.
Up to now, the open carry activists have made most of the noise and threatened almost all of the boycotts, butt if the rest of us make clear that our money will go only to businesses where we feel safe, we will eventually persuade most stores to ban open carry.
mia
(8,363 posts)Didn't know that some businesses we're already doing this.
niyad
(113,582 posts)be a customer because of his open carry policy, his response was "we don't want YOUR kind in here anyway".
PatrickforO
(14,592 posts)feel like you do? He'll be singing a different tune then, won't he?
niyad
(113,582 posts)of gun control.
chillfactor
(7,584 posts)...of cards like this and leave the at checkout if they run into someone carrying a gun, rifle, etc.
pamela
(3,469 posts)I'm not advocating abandoning your cart as a form of protest I'm just thinking of the logistics. If I'm in a grocery store, for example, and I see someone armed, I am out of there. I might take the time to drop one of these notes in the cart if I have it handy but that's about all the time I would take.
I'm not stopping to talk to a manager or the checkout clerk on the way out, either, although I might try to calmly warn others on my way out that there is someone with a gun. I mean, if you see something, say something. I'd feel pretty shitty if the guy DID turn out to be a mass shooter who was just calmly walking deeper into the store before opening fire on all the people I passed on the way out.
I actually think about this as I'm in an open carry state. I probably wouldn't run out if I saw someone with a holstered handgun but some big assault rifle? No fucking way I'm staying in that store.
FuzzyRabbit
(1,969 posts)said to do exactly as you said you would do. Then as soon as you get safely outside, call 911.
beevul
(12,194 posts)I copied your pic....hope that is alright...I will run some off on card stock on my printer.
mia
(8,363 posts)I received this from a friend and plan to make copies too.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)If many people do it then stores might forbid open carry in those areas.
mia
(8,363 posts)Spread the word.
hunter
(38,328 posts)Our police and gangsters shoot first, ask questions later.
Why is it that the biggest "open carry" assholes only do it in places where there's no danger at all?
BECAUSE THEY ARE COWARDS
IronLionZion
(45,540 posts)meth and heroin are all over small towns and rural areas. Many open carry folks claim it is for protection from crazed drug addicts trying to rob them. Which has happened many times.
While many of the police shootings of innocent civilians lately are shown to be in urban areas. Many of the bad guys shooting police happen in rural secluded areas where there are less witnesses, takes longer for backup to arrive, and it's easier for them to get away.
hunter
(38,328 posts)... or the face in the mirror.
Good point.
Iggo
(47,571 posts)Because they're nothing more than exhibitionists.
dumbcat
(2,120 posts)in a drive by in the MonteMart parking lot on E. Alisal back in the 90's. Gang related, Nortes vs Suds. Is that still going on? (We left the area.)
63splitwindow
(2,657 posts)They cannot even comprehend that we are concerned about what pain, suffering and death that weapon, so quickly and easily put to use, could cause. The Cleveland police apparently now understand this when they consider the danger it could put THEM in.
mia
(8,363 posts)Most of the young children I've come to know display it naturally, but then many lose it somewhere along the way.
L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)Let them "absorb" the cost of preparing the meal.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)... and exactly the same as dine and ditch.
StrictlyRockers
(3,855 posts)Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, too, Yosemite Sam.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)Just a guy with a basic understanding of criminal law... Throwing down a card to explain why you committed your crime doesn't excuse you from it.
StrictlyRockers
(3,855 posts)I'm going to print up some of those cards.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)Please...
Lonusca
(202 posts)as substitution for payment of your meal.
StrictlyRockers
(3,855 posts)I wouldn't. I'd get up and leave.
You're kinda weird if killing devices don't make you uncomfortable.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)... if he sees some people of color? He's scared and doesn't want to be in their presence so he can leave right?
He legitimately believes that person may just snap and feels threatened (setting aside the incredibly low probably of such a thing happening. Maybe he just doesn't want to be in their presence.
Doesn't matter they are there legally and not threatening you in any way. Your concern that they might slip and start committing crimes doesn't exempt you from the law.
StrictlyRockers
(3,855 posts)I fail to follow your logic.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)adigal
(7,581 posts)You equated an illogical fear, that of a black person, with the very real fear of a person carrying around an assault weapon.
Absurd.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)Your fear is illogical and his is well founded.
The odds of either are very very low.
Logical
(22,457 posts)I have walked away from a rude manager and after waiting 40 minutes for food. Not arrested!
TipTok
(2,474 posts)Intent is the difference...
Orrex
(63,225 posts)Having on one occason left a restaurant after ordering (but not eating) my food, I'm saddened to learn that I am a criminal. Please share the specific statute that covers this kind of situation.
Thank you!
Now that I think of it, I once had to have an employee search for an item in a store's backroom inventory. I thereafter opted to exit the store without purchasing it, even after the employee had labored to produce it. Was I a criminal then, too?
TipTok
(2,474 posts)If yes, then that's on you. If no, and no agreement was reached with the manager, then yes you are a criminal.
As for the employee searching for something that you didn't buy, I suspect that they can sell it again and at no point did you agree to purchase it.
Are you suggesting that the manager should put out the same plate of fish that already went out to the dining area to someone else (older, colder, less fresh and more contaminated and likely not what the next diner expets to be served)?
Orrex
(63,225 posts)Again... Basic understanding of law...
TipTok
(2,474 posts)... is illegal?
Really?
Orrex
(63,225 posts)Absent that, please provide an example of someone who was prosecuted after ordering a meal and then leaving a restaurant.
If you can't cite the law and you can't cite an example of prosecution, then you're just being silly in defense of gun zealotry.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)(1) the actor absconded without paying for the service or expressly refused to pay for the service in circumstances where payment is ordinarily made immediately upon rendering of the service, as in hotels, campgrounds, recreational vehicle parks, restaurants, and comparable establishments;
And this owner is pressing charges, assuming they can ID the folks..
http://www.kltv.com/story/31739448/restaurant-owner-fed-up-with-theft-via-dine-and-dash
You are asking for the statute that says stealing is illegal?
Orrex
(63,225 posts)I'm asking you to provide the statute that says that leaving a restaurant after ordering food is stealing.
Alternatively, I'm asking you to provide an example of a person being successfully prosecuted for theft after ordering food and leaving the restaurant without eating it.
By assuming that such an action constitutes theft, you are begging the question.
Logical
(22,457 posts)TipTok
(2,474 posts)You could lie and say that the guy with the gun threatened you or that you saw a cockroach on the food.
Of course if you left your card on the table explaining your intent your master plan might fall apart.
Orrex
(63,225 posts)Or any question, frankly.
Logical
(22,457 posts)I am nervous. So simple!
Orrex
(63,225 posts)You're totally a criminal, you crime-loving criminal.
And spare me a place in the holding cell because I agree with you completely.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)A nervous disposition is not an excuse to commit crime.
Orrex
(63,225 posts)If it's theft, as you're pretending, then is a ticket the appropriate police response?
jmg257
(11,996 posts)IF indeed it was a crime.
A person is guilty of theft of services when:
1...
2. With intent to avoid payment for restaurant services rendered, or
for services rendered to him as a transient guest at a hotel, motel,
inn, tourist cabin, rooming house or comparable establishment, he avoids
or attempts to avoid such payment by unjustifiable failure or refusal to
pay, by stealth, or by any misrepresentation of fact which he knows to
be false. A person who fails or refuses to pay for such services is
presumed to have intended to avoid payment therefor; or
Figure you might get arrested if a complaint is filed, at least until you can show true intent and justification.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)presumed to have intended to avoid payment therefor
http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/penal-law/pen-sect-165-15.html
jmg257
(11,996 posts)Your lack of intent and any justification should eventually be known.
i.e. figure if I had to track down someone who ran out on service in the scenario as explained because the owner called LE, and he had no problem coming in and settling with the owner, I figure that would be a acceptable typical result.
Orrex
(63,225 posts)You're correct to highlight the importance of intent. Further, it's not clear that simply ordering the food and then leaving without eating it (and with damn good reason) confirms intent nor, if intent is confirmed, that it rises to the level of an actionable crime.
I would be interested to see that other DUer's list of examples in which someone has been successfully prosecuted for such action.
Thanks!
jmg257
(11,996 posts)As I said above, I'd have a very tough time hauling someone in who had a good reason, and no problems with settling up after the incident.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)The dine and dash jail sentence followed, prosecutors say, an unpaid $70 tab at Alamo Steak House in Mattoon. Defendant Anthony M. Malabehar, 47, was convicted of a similar restaurant theft just prior to the Mattoon incident, but apparently was not deterred from repeating the crime that landed him in prison.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2049644/Dine-dash-teenagers-ran-paying-25-TGI-Fridays-bill.html
Florida police arrested two teenagers last week for allegedly attempting a 'dine-and-dash' after a romantic first meal at T.G.I. Friday's.
Authorities say that Devin Norling, 18, and Sydney Sanders, 19, were just finishing up their meal at the restaurant in the Indian River Mall when they began plotting to avoid the $25.16 bill.
http://fanbuzz.rare.us/story/caleb-brantley-and-adam-lane-offered-deferred-prosecution-agreements/
Florida defensive tackle Caleb Brantley and running back Adam Lane, who were cited for second-degree misdemeanors last Saturday for dining and dashing on July 4, have been offered deferred prosecution.
http://patch.com/illinois/elmhurst/three-charged-dine-dash-buffalo-wild-wings-elmhurst-0
Elmhurst police caught up with two of the three people. They said they didnt pay the bill because they were unhappy with the service, according to Elmhurst police.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)"Malabehar, 47, was convicted of a similar restaurant theft just prior to the Mattoon incident"
"began plotting to avoid the $25.16 bill"
"they didnt pay the bill because they were unhappy with the service"
"walked out on a tab of $42.30 at a local bowling alley,"
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)jmg257
(11,996 posts)even though there is/was NO intent?
Any example of those arrests and results?
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Of course not. It's still theft of service.
If you've got time to fish around in your wallet / purse to find this special little card to leave to let them know why you're leaving, then you obviously have time to pay.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)If you ordered and then realized you had no money, do you think you are guilty if you stay and explain it to the owner?
Do you think he would have you arrested, or rather work something out?
"If you've got time to fish around in your wallet / purse to find this special little card to leave to let them know why you're leaving, then you obviously have time to pay."
Ah - now that makes a bit more sense. Would begin to indicate a true lack of urgency on your part instead of true fear, and more willingness to not pay in order to be spiteful.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)I mean hey, if you want to make a political statement, then allow yourself to be arrested. Call the cops and TV stations yourself.
Or alternately, pay first, which doesn't stiff the wait staff.
It seems like folks don't want to take responsibility for their actions- for example, I see a lot of folks promoting protesting a la the 1960's civil rights era, but they get completely bent out of shape when said protesters get cited for disturbing the peace. Civil disobedience entails actually getting arrested / fined / etc.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)... and the amount.
Sometimes it is theft of fraud or sometimes theft of services. It can range from a civil citation to a misdemeaner to a low grade felony.
Orrex
(63,225 posts)Please cite an example of someone successfully prosecuted for theft after ordering a meal and then leaving a restaurant without eating that meal.
I appreciate you answering after the question had already been thoroughly answered, though. Thanks.
Stryder
(450 posts)"I feared for my safety and that of my fellow officers."
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)Make fun of those people all you want.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)Because you love guns does not mean everyone does
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)The cook who made your food, the waitress who will likely lose money- they don't deserve to be stiffed because you got nervous.
Logical
(22,457 posts)I guarantee it is a civil matter, not criminal! Do more reading. Jesus!
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Why don't you do your own reading. I've done mine.
Logical
(22,457 posts)X_Digger
(18,585 posts)http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.31.htm
(1) a Class C misdemeanor if the value of the service stolen is less than $100;
Logical
(22,457 posts)This.
Read more, lets chat tomorrow!
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)(1) the actor absconded without paying for the service or expressly refused to pay for the service in circumstances where payment is ordinarily made immediately upon rendering of the service, as in hotels, campgrounds, recreational vehicle parks, restaurants, and comparable establishments;
Fucking duh, I can't decide if you're being intentionally obtuse or not.
If you order a service (preparation of food) and leave without paying for that service, you've committed theft of service, a class C misdemeanor in Texas. (And I suspect the same in other states, but I haven't researched those.)
rjsquirrel
(4,762 posts)What restaurant GM or owner is going to go to court or press charges against a family that leaves because of a well founded fear of violence? What prosecutor would press such a case or indict? What jury would convict?
It's brilliant, and will really cost those businesses some money to throw away prepared food. Not likely the vast majority would risk a significant further cost and bad PR for prosecuting a scared mom or dad and their kids. Fear for your safety would be very solid defense.
TipTok
(2,474 posts).. that in some states it is legal for the owner to take skipped meals out of the paychecks of servers.
So you wouldn't even be screwing the owner but the servers and staff.
Bravo...
I'm like Snidely Whiplash lol.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)I mostly remember him for tying damsels in distress to railroad tracks.
In the end, as is typical of many folks trying to 'protest' in the modern era, you are willing to have someone pay a price (as long as it isn't you)
rjsquirrel
(4,762 posts)Have a hit or a drink, pops.
Ignored.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)I'll own that...
Lancero
(3,015 posts)It's going to get your picture and name under the don't serve list, but it's not something that they're going to call the cops over.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)Especially if your intent is as laid out in the post above.
Intentionally ordering and then leaving in order to cost the owners. The owners may or may not write it off as a loss but morally and ethically it is the same.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)... I truly feel may family is in danger... that's stupid.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)You can justify just about anything with it.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)... if you feel your family is in danger it makes no sense to try reconcile a payment.
None at all...
You'd leave the area as quick as possible and reconcile later if available.
No one is trying to skip out on the bill... just remove oneself and loved ones from danger.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)The post that started this whole subthread
Let them "absorb" the cost of preparing the meal.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8021794
When the owner calls the cops on you and you say that you felt threatened by a man with a gun but he wasn't brandishing or threatening you in any way or doing anything illegal you should be cited or arrested. Irrational fear doesn't excuse you from the law.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Think you have thought this out much.
No restraunt owner i know wants the police showing up in the restraunt
TipTok
(2,474 posts)... or cats or black people or whatever you like.
You don't have the right to steal because of it.
The fact that such a theft might not be worth the hassle to the owner is immaterial. There is no difference between that and having someone paint your house and then you refusing to pay when the bill comes because you saw an NRA sticker on the truck.
They both provided the service and materials you asked for and when the moment came you say 'No' because you don't like the legal choices that they made.
In short, it sounds like a personal problem.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)Orrex
(63,225 posts)Such as the imaginary need to own large-capacity semiautomatic rifles, for instance.
Exilednight
(9,359 posts)sarisataka
(18,779 posts)that you are so fearful you have to leave the restaurant. But you feel safe enough to wait until the food arrives before you flee to safety.
StrictlyRockers
(3,855 posts)I would leave at the first sight of a gun. I would make it VERY clear to the owners of the establishment WHY I was leaving and would never come back. I'd use one of these cards or call the owners.
sarisataka
(18,779 posts)to the post I replied to. They clearly stated "just as the food arrives at the table"
You may choose to leave immediately, which at least is more consistent with a perception of treat.
treestar
(82,383 posts)regardless of what point in the service you are at.
Though it may not happen much. I've never seen a gun on a civilian while out. I don't particularly look, though. Maybe better to just leave then publicize that you saw a gun at such and such business.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Never an issue, always properly holstered and no threat
Marengo
(3,477 posts)StrictlyRockers
(3,855 posts)It's not ok to bring killing machines into the place my family is breaking bread.
Marengo
(3,477 posts)Response to Marengo (Reply #143)
Post removed
Add a sentence to the thing saying you won't be back until/unless things change. Then you leave full payment for your untouched meal.
Now there is no longer any question if you're a thief. Plus you've backed up your words with cash and it carries a lot more weight than if you just cut and run. If you'll pay and walk away without eating, you're probably serious, don't you think? There's X dollars the restaurant is maybe seeing for the last time.
If they don't change the rules, you don't return. That's assumed with the whole thing, right? Can't measure your impact? Too bad. Maybe the business will hurt and maybe it won't. That's the risk you take when you engage in this sort of thing.
If you believe in it, you do it. If you're giving it lip service, you game it. Don't game it. That's bullshit.
mia
(8,363 posts)Sweet dreams
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)StrictlyRockers
(3,855 posts)I'm not one of them. I prefer to eat in peace, with no killing devices in the vicinity.
Abq_Sarah
(2,883 posts)You're probably surrounded by them daily but they're most likely concealed.
ileus
(15,396 posts)so just seeing a sidearm on a citizen is considered "confronted" now?
TipTok
(2,474 posts)'I was in fear for my life'
'He was just standing there'
'I was in fear for my life'
Ahh.. Irony...
beevul
(12,194 posts)And yeah, theres more irony there than you can fit into the superdome.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)have to hope it is an ordinary citizen. How do you know that it is not someone on the verge?
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Security means someone with a gun and an entry point with searches of all who come in. Applebee's is NOT a secured place....ffs
mia
(8,363 posts)You know they're ready for trouble and hope that they aren't trigger happy.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Going to be enjoying a burger first...that, and I have never been anyplace that the open carriers aren't damned few and far between...
I think open carry is silly if concealed carry is an option, but have never been worried if I saw someone with a gun...I don't carry at all anymore....too long I had to, and it is a pain in the ass.
The answer for the severe hoplophobe would be to only eat places with no guns allowed signs on the door...that can be easier said than done in some states....I suppose moving to Cook County could be an option too, however you are probably more likely to be shot there than in most other areas of the country. .
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)mia
(8,363 posts)I assume that many people carry, but the display of firearms incites violence.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)hell, I didn't know there was such an animal as open carry ...
On the first Monday, I went to a bank to open accounts. There were about 7 people in line; 2 in front of me and several behind me.
Being from a large City, I tend towards being situationally aware; but, on this day, I was kind of distracted with all the stuff I had to do to get settled into my new home.
Well, I look down at the guy next in line and saw a gun, and immediately thought, "Aw man! I done walked into a hold-up" and stepped out of line and was headed to the door.
Then, it dawned on me, the security guard could clearly see the guy with the gun and he didn't seem concerned.
So I stood by the door and waited for the guy to finish his business.
Another open carry story:
On his first visit to Arizona, my Dad (the cop), my Mom, my sister, and I went out to a bar that served great burgers. We were chatting along when my Dad got suddenly quite and (since I was seating next to him) I could see him reaching for his gun.
I followed his eyes, and kind of chuckled, as I leaned towards him and told him, "It's okay ... you can carry a gun in Arizona, so long as it's visible."
My Dad looked at me like I was crazy, then said, "Didn't they learn from Tombstone ... Guns and alcohol don't mix?" He insisted that we finish our burgers and leave.
beevul
(12,194 posts)LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)Last edited Mon Jul 18, 2016, 03:21 PM - Edit history (1)
made himself aware of Arizona law beforehand.
The fact that he was was unaware of local law and so was reaching for his weapon is rather disturbing.
Edited to add, from Wikipedia: The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA) is a United States federal law, enacted in 2004, that allows two classes of personsthe "qualified law enforcement officer" and the "qualified retired law enforcement officer"to carry a concealed firearm in any jurisdiction in the United States, regardless of state or local laws, with certain exceptions.
beevul
(12,194 posts)I just find it funny, that someone carrying concealed in a bar, would rant about guns and alcohol not mixing, while referring to someone else carrying.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)first, he was a cop, at the time and carried everywhere he went. Secondly, he didn't drink.
beevul
(12,194 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)beevul
(12,194 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I defense of Dear Old Dad, I think what got Dad's cop senses tingling was the skinned head and the (prison looking) white supremacist tattoos.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)to draw his weapon.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I think what got his Cop-senses tingling was the skinned head and (prison-looking) white supremacist tattoos.
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I thought I'd try not to this time.
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)We had three regulars who were disabled Vietnam veterans; they were roommates who made their living reloading and selling ammo. They looked scary (tattoos were not de rigueur back then), but were really nice guys.
Whenever they would come in, they would be visibly carrying significant handgun firepower. A customer once saw them and asked. "aren't you worried?" I said, "Are you kidding? Who's going to rob me while they're here?"
UnFettered
(79 posts)How many times do you see people even open carrying ? I'm in a solid red area and I have only scene it twice. Even in rual areas I never see anybody just carrying a gun.
I'm just wondering if it's maybe more prevalent in blue areas being done to get a rise out of people.
Paladin
(28,276 posts)Civilians who are genuinely concerned with personal self-protection are content with training-based concealed carry. Those who feel compelled to resort to open carry are doing so for one purpose and one purpose only: overt public intimidation. Open carriers are exhibiting the very traits which, in a sane country, would prohibit them from any sort of firearms ownership. They are to be considered public menaces and avoided.
beevul
(12,194 posts)Spoken like someone whos never travelled the states significantly.
The opinion of a poster who doesn't like other peoples guns, or any form of carry.
Again, the opinion of a poster who doesn't like other peoples guns, or any form of carry.
And yet again, the opinion of a poster who doesn't like other peoples guns, or any form of carry.
I'm detecting a trend here...
Marengo
(3,477 posts)I recently saw an OC'er wearing what appeared to be a tactical kilt. I've seen more kilts lately in public, but this was a first.
Response to mia (Original post)
LongtimeAZDem This message was self-deleted by its author.
Vinca
(50,310 posts)That's what the Baton Rouge police were complaining about when they put out an alert for guys wearing black and carrying assault-style weapons. It fit a good chunk of the population. I would never stay in a business if I spotted a person with a gun.
malaise
(269,186 posts)the Brinks truck arrived to refill the ATM. There were three young male German tourists who nearly had a heart attack when they saw the weapon one was carrying. I laughed with them and said 'people on our planet are completely insane'.
raven mad
(4,940 posts)It's okay here, even if your pushing a stroller with a 2-year-old.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)Do you panic because there "might" be one present?
Matt_R
(456 posts)I have MAJOR panic attacks every time I go to DoC and see all those "people" with handguns, tasers, pepper spray. Knowing that I could be ARRESTED if I were to speak out about ANY of it causes the panic attacks.