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davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
Sun Aug 14, 2016, 08:38 PM Aug 2016

How do you define whether an athlete is male or female?

A simple task, you say? Well....maybe not according to the world of sports. Sports leagues, committees, and federations seem to be increasingly having problems defining what used to be thought of as common sense.

Last summer, 19-year old sprinter Dutee Chand’s ability to compete in the Rio Olympics was in limbo. Her fate was not tied up in her race time, but rather a controversial rule for Olympians that said female athletes could be disqualified if their natural testosterone levels were too high. Chand’s were.

The rationale behind the rule was that women with high testosterone fall outside the limits of “normal” female biology, giving them an unfair advantage. If they wanted to compete as women, the rule stated, they would need to take hormones or undergo invasive surgeries. Otherwise, they could compete against the men.

Chand decided to fight the rule, which had been adopted by both the governing body of track and field — the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) — and the International Olympics Committee (IOC). In July of last year, she won: the Court of Arbitration for Sport suspended the so-called “T-test.” It gave the IAAF two years to come back with scientific evidence that female athletes with naturally high testosterone actually had a significant advantage over their peers.

“Although athletics events are divided into discrete male and female categories, sex in humans is not simply binary,” the Court decided. “Nevertheless,” it added, “it is necessary for the IAAF to formulate a basis for the division of athletes into the male and female categories.” In other words, some kind of biological gender test is needed.

This week, the IAAF announced that it intended to fight the Court’s suspension of the T-test. “The IAAF stands by its Regulations and is continuing to collect the evidence,” a representative told BuzzFeed News by email. The IOC, meanwhile, said that it would not introduce any new hormone rules “until the issues of the case of Dutee Chand are resolved.”

On Friday, Chand will be competing in the 100-meter dash in Rio, making her the first Indian woman to qualify in the Olympic event in 36 years. As part of the rule’s temporary suspension, other women with high testosterone will also be allowed to compete. (The rules are different for trans athletes. Although trans men can compete without restriction, trans women will have to demonstrate lowered hormone levels for at least a year before competing.)

Historians and bioethicists have argued that Chand’s victory is only temporary. Even if the T-test is not used next year, the Court is still pushing for a gender test. Critics say these tests try to draw a firm line between the two sexes where none exists in nature — at the expense of women athletes deemed too masculine.


https://www.buzzfeed.com/azeenghorayshi/sex-testing-olympians?utm_term=.ss9PAKJ7K#.yv6VY59z5


Today, the question is how do you define whether an athlete is male or female? What criteria makes the determination? Most times you would say it's common sense. Michael Phelps is a male and Simone Biles is a female. No one is going to argue that. But how do you make that determination in legal language? And what do you do about athletes who might not be that clear-cut?

In the past it was strictly genitalia. If you have a penis, you compete as a male. If not, you are a female. Simple. But now, others have introduced other criteria such as genetic tests and hormone tests. If a woman (a biologically-born woman) has a higher testosterone level than other women, does that give her an unfair advantage? Some say it does and that the "masculine woman" should compete with the men. Many feminists say this is wrong because it's forcing all female athletes into a stereotype of perceived femininity. In other words, if a woman happens to be masculine, she gets punished.

And what role does gender identity play in this question? That's an even bigger debate.
15 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
How do you define whether an athlete is male or female? (Original Post) davidn3600 Aug 2016 OP
Analyze their blood. Kablooie Aug 2016 #1
And if contains lots of PEDs, they're Russian... :) n/t DeadLetterOffice Aug 2016 #2
Ask them. That seems to be how this is handled, right? hughee99 Aug 2016 #3
Since their concern is testosterone, they could simply due away ZombieHorde Aug 2016 #4
Interesting idea. Nye Bevan Aug 2016 #6
Exactly. ZombieHorde Aug 2016 #7
I think the common sense rule needs to apply. Stinky The Clown Aug 2016 #5
Exactly right I think. TDale313 Aug 2016 #8
I'd suggest a simple chromosome PoindexterOglethorpe Aug 2016 #9
That doesn't work at all. hunter Aug 2016 #10
It actually works very well Massacure Aug 2016 #12
Yes, it works, but it's also arbitrary even while well hidden under apparent empirical evidence. HereSince1628 Aug 2016 #15
The real question might be PoindexterOglethorpe Aug 2016 #14
You seem to have a lot of concern regarding civil rights. KMOD Aug 2016 #11
No shit I have concern about civil rights. I'm a progressive. davidn3600 Aug 2016 #13

Kablooie

(18,634 posts)
1. Analyze their blood.
Sun Aug 14, 2016, 08:43 PM
Aug 2016

If it contains sugar, spice and everything nice they are female.
Snips and snails and puppy dog tails they are male.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
4. Since their concern is testosterone, they could simply due away
Sun Aug 14, 2016, 09:38 PM
Aug 2016

with sex-based categories and use categories based on testosterone instead.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
6. Interesting idea.
Sun Aug 14, 2016, 09:45 PM
Aug 2016

Determine the median testosterone level of the population as a whole, and have separate competitions for (1) those above that level and (2) those below that level. Most men would fall into the first category and most women into the second, but there would be plenty of exceptions.

Stinky The Clown

(67,806 posts)
5. I think the common sense rule needs to apply.
Sun Aug 14, 2016, 09:43 PM
Aug 2016

The only open issue is how to deal with Trans athletes. I'm honestly not sure about that, but would think they compete as the gender they self identify.

As to the article's opening issue - high-T women - that holds no weight in my mind. What about tall women or men with larger than normal hearts or lungs with higher than normal capacity, or . . . . or . . . . or. Natural high-T is natural.

TDale313

(7,820 posts)
8. Exactly right I think.
Sun Aug 14, 2016, 10:11 PM
Aug 2016

There are all kinds of physical differences that can make athetes better or worse at a particular sport. Banning someone because of a natural attribute makes very little sense to me.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,861 posts)
9. I'd suggest a simple chromosome
Sun Aug 14, 2016, 11:36 PM
Aug 2016

count. If the athlete is XX, it's a she. If XY it's a he.

Taking a quick look online at genetic abnormalities, here, you could simply declare that the presence of a Y chromosome makes a male. Not having one, a female. Because there are women who only have one X chromosome, and no Y.

A transgender person is a bit of a problem, because that person will still be chromosomally either a male (Y chromosome present) or female (no Y chromosome) but identifies with the other gender, and may well have had sex-reassignment surgery.

I have no idea how those people, if there are actually any of them competing at the Olympic level, should be dealt with.

Massacure

(7,523 posts)
12. It actually works very well
Mon Aug 15, 2016, 02:28 AM
Aug 2016

What reproductive parts an athlete has or what gender they identify with are completely irrelevant if chromosomes are the measuring stick used to define male or female. If you define anyone with a Y chromosome as male and anyone without a Y chromosome as female, the result is a very clear cut binary choice. Any other combination of chromosomes resulting from polysomy could be classified based on whether at least one of them is Y. A person with Turner Syndrome would be female (they have only one X chromosome and no Y). A person who is XY is male, and a person who is XX is female.

Whether society would find this as an appropriate way to define male and female is a completely different story. I suspect that is the point PoindexterOglethorpe was trying to make.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
15. Yes, it works, but it's also arbitrary even while well hidden under apparent empirical evidence.
Mon Aug 15, 2016, 09:39 AM
Aug 2016

Androgen insensitivity isn't based on presence of a chromosome, but it greatly impacts physical development.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,861 posts)
14. The real question might be
Mon Aug 15, 2016, 09:27 AM
Aug 2016

how many of those females are involved in sports, especially at the Olympic level.

And given that unless those people are given hormones, according to what I see on the internets, they won't experience puberty. Maybe an exception can be made for those people, and if they end up taking testosterone and so become more physiologically male, they compete as men, if they take estrogen and become more physiologically female, they compete as women.

I suspect the number of those with this syndrome competing at the Olympic level of sport is so sufficiently small that others who understand these things far better than I do can deal with this on a case by case basis.

 

KMOD

(7,906 posts)
11. You seem to have a lot of concern regarding civil rights.
Mon Aug 15, 2016, 01:17 AM
Aug 2016

I've noticed that you not only pop up in the threads that regard race, but you also have concerns about LGBT rights.

It's really not as complicated as you assume.

You define male and female athletes by how they identify. Unless you are of the belief that there is some sort of gender difference, or inequality, it shouldn't concern you.

 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
13. No shit I have concern about civil rights. I'm a progressive.
Mon Aug 15, 2016, 03:37 AM
Aug 2016

Absolutely, I support equality and I support LGBT rights.

And I will post whatever the fuck I want. You don't like like it, don't click.

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