Don't get your flu shot high on your arm

[womanofthehills]

Vaccine Injury Payouts Rise
The U.S. government is about to make it easier for claimants to be compensated when vaccinations are improperly injected
A government program that pays people hurt by vaccinations recently doled out more than $1 million to Latasha George, a Louisiana nurse. Katherine Brooks, an Indiana emergency-room doctor, received $92,500. Roberta Livolsi, a retired Pennsylvania housekeeper, got $75,000.

All were deemed victims of the flu shot—but their injuries had nothing to do with what was in the syringe.

The patients were among dozens that have been diagnosed with “Sirva,” or shoulder injury related to vaccine administration. They were hurt by how the shot was given, not the contents of the vaccine. It is a growing phenomenon for which U.S. health officials increasingly have been awarding compensation and is now being added to a no-fault system intended to expedite claims.

Sirva generally is caused by an injection improperly shot too high on the arm, Dr. Atanasoff says. This can injure the musculoskeletal structures of the shoulder, such as tendons, ligaments or bursa, causing sudden shoulder pain.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/vaccine-injury-payouts-rise-1440430702

http://www.wsj.com/articles/vaccine-injury-payouts-rise-1440430702

[cwydro]

1. I don't get flu shots.

Everyone I know that does, gets the flu.

Big pharm making big money off the "worried well".

[womanofthehills]

3. I don't get them either - just found this article interesting

I have never gotten a flu shot.

[cwydro]

5. Oh I agree.

It is interesting.

I don't like big pharm ever getting its hooks into my body.

I was derided on another thread when I stated I only take Benadryl and aspirin.

Even my 90 year old mom only takes an acid reflux pill.

[womanofthehills]

18. I saw that thread - it was so hateful

I take no meds. When my doc said I needed blood pressure meds and cholesterol meds - I did a lot of research and brought my numbers down to normal without meds. The sad thing is, my doctor was not even interested in how I brought my numbers down. There are so many forums online with people saying what works for them

If I need to take something for an infection, I always go with the older meds like ampicillin.

[cwydro]

19. You and I are on the same page.

Absolutely agree!

[dixiegrrrrl]

44. We must have been separeated at brth.

You wrote exactly what I have been saying.

My doc has never mentioned my drop in some numbers, but has been very eager to prescribe meds to even borderline numbers.

Like you, I prefer to the older equally effective medications if any are needed.

[Raine]

54. Same with me

asprin along with vitamins & supplements is all I take.

[CreekDog]

134. hey, if you think your conspiracy theory is more valid than science

that says more about you than the science.

[Thor_MN]

4. In a word, Bullshit.

Everyone that you know that get a flu vaccine gets the flu? Bullshit, if you could prove that, you would have grounds for a massive lawsuit. Stop posting lies.

[cwydro]

9. Um really?

There would be a lawsuit because of my anecdotal evidence of my friends at work getting the flu?

You do know the flu vaccine does not protect against all strains, right?

You're funny.

[Thor_MN]

16. You are not.

I know more about flu vaccines than you do if you think that getting the vaccine causes one to get the flu. That's batshit crazy.

If you could prove that the vaccine causes the flu, by citing 20 people getting the flu after receiving a vaccine (you do know 20 people don't you), it would be proof of massive fraud by the company that made the vaccine.

You made a bullshit claim that is not provable. Stop lying.

[cwydro]

17. I didn't say that dear.

Reading comprehension is important.

[Thor_MN]

20. Writing competence is just as important. And I'm not your dear.

"I don't get flu shots. Everyone I know that does, gets the flu."

Yes, you did say that everyone you know that get flu shots, get the flu.

I'll give a hint, making absolute statements usually tips off a lie, especially when promulgating woo.

[Thor_MN]

27. Except that is not what you said, deary. Writing competence. Look into a class.

You claimed that everyone, every last person that has ever told you that they got a flu vaccine has gotten the flu. Every one. Which is bullshit.

Now, you are trying to back off that by saying "People who get the flu shot can still get the flu." World of difference there, being able to maybe getting the flu after a vaccine vs. every single person that you know that got the vaccine getting the flu.

I despise purveyors of woo and anti-vaccine bullshit in particular.

Your claim was not true, it was a lie.

[cwydro]

29. Nope, you still got it wrong.

I've not backed off anything.

I'm not anti-vaccine in any way.

I don't believe in the silly flu shots which do not protect against all strains. Did you google last year's?

You work for big pharm...I'm willing to bet.

Done with you sweetie. I'll continue being healthy.

You have called me names several times. I haven't done that. That tells me all I need to know.

I don't put people on ignore, but I will not respond to you again.

Your anger and hostility speak volumes. Have a nice night now. Perhaps some Valium? Xanax? Better living through prescription drugs.

It's the American way. Toodles.

[Thor_MN]

33. You lose, I'm a computer programmer.

And you can't alter your first claim. Which was and is bullshit.

Last year's vaccine is not relevant to your claim that everyone you know has ever gotten a vaccine got the flu.

Like I said, absolute statements are usually bullshit. Now, you are thinking "That's not what I meant and you know it." Wrong, I have no idea what is running through your head, I can only know what you wrote. And you made an absolutely absurd claim.

And you have called me names as well, do you not comprehend what you write?

Put me on ignore, it will stop you from seeing me countering bullshit claims from anti-science woo talkers.

[cwydro]

35. I don't put anyone on ignore.

you make me laugh actually.

Bless your heart.

[Thor_MN]

41. You seem to have a talent for letting your fingers say things that you can't or won't bck up...

I thought you were done with me, sweetums. A couple posts ago. It's humorous that you can't back up your words and are wallowing in a sea of disorganized thoughts.

Have as good a night as you can in your confusion. But know that where I see woo, I will be there to call it out.

[canetoad]

58. Well argued Thor_MN nt

[msanthrope]

72. If you are missing your posterior later, look up thread. It got handed to you. nt

[pangaia]

107. You said... "...but I will not respond to you again. "

But you did.

[uppityperson]

117. "I don't believe in the silly flu shots which do not protect against all strains."

Better to be protected against some than against none.

[Major Nikon]

88. The same can be said for any vaccine

[mrmpa]

56. What some people call the flu, is not the flu.........

The flu is like a cold on steroids. It is every bone in your body aching, it is a very high fever, it is a cough. It is not a stomach virus, it is not a cold you have for a couple of days.

I guarantee that all the people you know that got the flu after a flu shot, did not have the flu.

I've had the flu. It developed into pneumonia. I was uninsured at the time & was sick for 2 months. You don't want to be that sick. Every year since I had the flu, I've gotten a flu shot. I will not risk my health or the health of those around me by not getting one.

[Crunchy Frog]

59. My two sons and I all got it a couple winters ago, when we had all gotten the shot.

Documented as flu by testing in the dr. office. The only one in the household who didn't get it was my mother, who was also the only one who hadn't gotten the shot.

[uppityperson]

118. It is a 3 week bronchial cough. If you don't have that, you didn't have the flu.

If you don't get pneumonia, you still get the cough. It is your body trying to deal with the damage the influenza virus did to you.

[Squinch]

67. Mild to moderate flu-like symptoms are a common side effect of flu vaccine. It isn't the flu, but

it can feel like it. Also, flu vaccines are effective against a previous strain, and the flu mutates very quickly, so it is not at all unusual to get the flu after getting the flu shot.

[Thor_MN]

81. I am well aware of that. The person I responded to made a bogus claim.

There is no way that every single person that has told that poster that they had received a flu vaccine has gone on to get the flu.

Woo promoters often exaggerate their claims. If one doesn't like vaccines and doesn't get them, fine. But when you claim that getting the vaccine causes you to get the flu, I will call that BS out.

[Squinch]

89. Gosh. Aren't you virtuous!

[Thor_MN]

97. If you say so.

I dislike ignorance. I find the whole anti-science fad distasteful.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

99. The poster said every one they know who had the flu shot got the flu.

How do you know how many people the poster knows?!!!!? Maybe the poster knows three people who got the flu shot and then went on to get a strain of flu the shot didn’t protect against. The poster also clearly stated they are not anti-vaccine.

I will never get that fucking flu shot again. I was talked into it once about 3 yrs ago. I have a very bad auto-immune disease and the shot sent into a enormous flair that took me about a year to recover from. So, as far as I’m concerned that flu shot can fuck off.

Give me the flu any day over what I went through.

BTW, the place in my arm where I had the shot is still tender to the touch. THREE YEARS LATER.

[Thor_MN]

101. The poster also said they never get flu vaccines and don't believe in them.

Can't get much more anti vaccine than offering up bullshit anecdotal "evidence" to make your point. In fact, that poster said a lot of things that proved to be false very quickly. I wouldn't put much stock into anything said by that poster.

If you have an auto-immune disorder, you are hardly a member of the average population. The population that you should be grateful to for getting flu vaccines to reduce the chances for people who should not get the vaccine.

It's odd that someone such as yourself would argue for other people not to get the vaccines. I suggest that you research herd immunity and reconsider your stance.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

136. They have a right not to believe in them.

And they have a right to their opinion, even if you don’t agree with it.

About my auto-immune disease; my immune system is over-active. THE KEY WORD HERE IS ’OVER' ACTIVE. I do not have a disease such as AIDS, where my immune system is poor/weak/low. Look up the difference. I haven’t had a simple cold since 1992. I could walk into a room full of people with the flu and not get it. The dip shit who recommended I get the flu shot was ignorant. It has fuck-all to do with ‘herd immunity’.

Do me a favor and point out where the fuck I said I was against vaccines for the general population! I shall be waiting for your reply, even though I know I will not get one.

I want to to read this very carefully: I am not anti fucking vaccines and I am not anti-flu shot. You can vaccinate yourself every day of the fucking week and I don’t give a shit. I shan’t be getting another flu shot because of my over-active immune system.

[Thor_MN]

155. Do me a favor and point out where I said that you were anti-vaccine...

I'll be waiting for you response. I'll give you a chance "to to read" very carefully what I wrote.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

171. Right here;

"It's odd that someone such as yourself would argue for other people not to get the vaccines. I suggest that you research herd immunity and reconsider your stance".

My stance? You are accusing me of having the point of view of someone against vaccines. ^ UP HERE ^ Read up here.

Are you just bored or are you just struggling?

[Thor_MN]

176. You conveniently left out the preceding sentence

where I stated that you are the rare case that should not get vaccines.

Face it, you are not in the "normal population". Your immune system is attacking your own body. Receiving a vaccine, probably with adjuvants, would be a horrible idea. For you. However, you decline to make that point and just spoke of the known disadvantages.

I'm well aware of auto-immune diseases, I'm involved with fundraising for MS and my father has a different autoimmune disease. One that would prevent a person from getting sick would be news to me, the ones i know simply attack one's own body.

There is a difference between stating that vaccines are not proper for you, and disparaging vaccines and supporting a an anti-vaccine person (even though they claim not to be.)

Speaking out against woo never bores me.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

182. No, you did not understand the difference auto-immune disease and a compromised immune system.

You thought auto-immune meant an under-active immune system. And like you dislike ignorance. From your earlier post.

97. If you say so.

I dislike ignorance.

It is common for people with my disease not to get colds. My doctor has tried to suppress my immune system and has warned me I’d get colds etc, but I didn’t because he couldn’t lower it with what he was using.

You did not know the difference between auto-immune and a compromised immune system and you have the nerve to argue about medical matters!? Fucking hell. And you claim to hate ignorance. lol lol

Now I’ll ask you once again to post what I said to indicate I was anti-vaccine for the general population. Come on spit it out.

OUT WITH IT!

[Thor_MN]

184. No, that your own opinion, I know what an auto-immune disease is.

Sorry if that disappoints you that you can't peddle your thoughts as mine, but facts are not on your side. Would you care to site what gave you the inane idea that I don't know what an auto-immune is?

Fact is that you should not get vaccines, especially one with adjuvants. I have NEVER said that you have a compromised immune system, that just in your head.

As for demanding to hear what I have already told you twice, go back and read objectively, without the venom that you seem to have for opinions not your own.

I'm done with you, and unlike your anti-vax friend that you are defending, that means I will not respond again. Have a good life. Hopefully you will be surrounded by people that can and do get vaccines, instead of discourage anyone from getting them.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

186. Sure you know now what auto-immune disease is NOW - because I had to tell you.

[jpak]

91. i agree - ignorant nonsense

yup

[still_one]

129. The flu vaccine does not cause the flu. It also isn't the windfall money maker some are implying

if someone doesn't want to get the flu shot, fine, but spreading myths about it is embarrassing on a Democratic site that one would hope most people would subscribe to scientific facts

[TexasTowelie]

7. The exact opposite with my situation.

My brother is a respiratory therapist, didn't get the shot and caught the flu last year. I have a weakened immune system, did get the shot and didn't catch the flu even though we are in the same apartment. I usually catch every cold that he brings home from the hospital so I make certain to get the shot. The only time I did catch the flu was about 25 years ago when I didn't take the shot and I don't want to deal with that ever again.

[Laurian]

8. I got my first one last year and didn't get the flu. It's free for Medicare patients.

I finally got one because my husband has developed lung issues and it seemed a good precautionary measure. I'll do it again this year.

[onehandle]

10. I've been getting them since 1997. No flu since 1996. nt

[cwydro]

14. Glad to hear it.

I've never had one.

And never had the flu.

Oh except for the bad reaction when I was forced to take the swine flu vaccine while in the military.

THAT made me sick.

[cwydro]

30. I haven't gotten them. Neither has my 90 year old mother.

And neither of us has had the flu.

So there ya go.

[mothra1orbit]

70. I envy you

your magnificent immune system. And I particularly envy your mother, who takes only anti-reflux pills. Many of us are not so lucky, and it's a real pain in my ass when people like you brag about how healthy you are. So you don't need a flu shot. Good for you. Thank god they are available for the rest of us.

[pangaia]

109. Well, that just proves it.

A flu shot doesn't do anything. Unless it does.

I'm confused.

[pipoman]

21. You must know nobody then...

Ridiculous nonsense....google is your friend, surely there are stats for such a widespread phenomenon...oh wait...here it is..

According to the CDC, mild side effects from the flu shot include soreness, redness or swelling at the injection site, low-grade fever, and aches. Only about 1 percent to 2 percent of people who get a flu shot will have fever as a side effect, Schaffner said.

http://www.livescience.com/40279-flu-shot-information.html

I work in healthcare facility with 400 employees who all get it...no side effects at all in the vast majority...

[GulfCoast66]

22. I believe in science

And get it every year.

Do you skip other vaccines? I am glad 'big' pharma took out polio, small pox, HPV, and now chicken pox.

If you are over 60 you might think about a pneumonia vaccine. Although if over 60 the flu can kill you as easy as pneumonia.

Do you believe in climate change? Because that is also science.

[cwydro]

31. Not over 60, but my mom is 90.

She has never had a flu shot either. She refuses.

Both of us are healthy.

Nope, I took the polio, small pox, and I think the measles vaccine. I'm up to date on tetanus. I had chicken pox as a child. Nope, have not taken the shingles vaccine.

Wow, DU LOVES big pharm!

I love a good pile on.

[GulfCoast66]

38. I do not love big pharma

But when I hear folks use anecdotal evidence to question or deny proven science, which is what you did, I get testy.

And I thought I was responding to an anti-vaccer. Glad I was wrong and sorry for any insult.

But you really should get the flu shot. It does not cause the flu and may well save you, your mother or both from severe illness or worse.

Have a nice evening.

[Squinch]

78. You should perhaps look into the "proven science" surrounding the flu vaccine. There is none.

Seriously. The few studies we have are not very good, but they do seem to be showing that years of widespread flu vaccination have had no effect on flu incidence, morbidity or cost.

[spooky3]

112. Squinch, the CDC does not agree. Here is a good explanation:

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaccineeffect.htm

[Squinch]

156. Yes, everyone is referencing that page.

But the studies quoted there are generally about sick adults and children. There are very few double blind studies on the effectiveness of the vaccine for healthy adults. Most of the studies that have been done on healthy adults have serious problems, and the results of the studies are varied - some show small benefit while others show no benefit at all.

[spooky3]

157. I find it hard to believe that the CDC scientists would

Not take into account design issues.

[Squinch]

159. Look for yourself, though. The CDC article has a link to its list of referenced articles.

There are no studies in that link that deal with the effectiveness of the vaccine for healthy adults.

And when I say there are very few double blind studies on healthy adults, I am not talking about the CDC referenced ones (because I don't see any studies on healthy adults in that link on the CDC page.) I'm talking about ones I have seen over the years, and a quick google search today didn't turn up anything new.

But on another note, it is refreshing to have this conversation with someone who can disagree civilly on this subject. Thanks for that.

[pipoman]

175. 90 year olds aren't "healthy adults" no matter how spry

More 90 year olds die from complications of the flu than just about any other ailment...

People who refuse to get flu shots are a danger to those with weakened immune systems.

[dixiegrrrrl]

45. I hear what you are saying

but
shingles hits people who had chicken pox.
and I got shingles a few years ago, worst pain I can remember.
If you can research that shingles vaccine, I would urge an evaluation of it, cause not only is a shingles attack hell, there can be nerve damage after it goes away.

the only reason I will not get the shot is that last I heard, the darn thing is only good for a few months.
That may have changed in teh last couple years....

[Squinch]

80. Crap! I had not heard that! Shingles vac is on my list of things to ask my doc for this year.

I'll look into that time limit and if I find anything I'll let you know.

[dixiegrrrrl]

83. You would do well to check with family history shigles, also.

I say this because my shingles appeared on the front, side and up around the back below the shoulder blade, in what they call a "belt" pattern.
Doc said it was the worse case she had seen, and got no argument from me.

But here is my point:
Last year my brother, at 55, got them in the exact same pattern, poor guy.
So I am thinking maybe something hereditary about the way they manifest themselves......perhaps?
So if you have relatives you can check with, it might give you some needed info.

Unfortunately, I had no surviving older generation to discuss with at the time.

[Squinch]

90. My family's history has a lot of bizarre skin/immune system things, so I'd just rather get the

vaccine, and maybe get it every year if need be.

Sorry you had to go through that.

[bananas]

167. I heard there's a much more effective shingles vaccine coming out in about a year.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/04/29/new-shingles-vaccine-may-offer-improved-protection/?_r=0

New Shingles Vaccine May Offer Improved Protection
By NICHOLAS BAKALAR APRIL 29, 2015

In a large randomized trial, researchers have found that a newly developed shingles vaccine is about twice as effective as the one currently in use.

Researchers studied the vaccine, not yet approved for general use, in more than 15,000 people whose average age was 62. Half the group received two doses of the vaccine, the other half got placebo shots. The study, paid for by GlaxoSmithKline, is published in The New England Journal of Medicine.

Over three years, there were six confirmed cases of shingles in the vaccinated group and 210 among the placebo group. Over all, the vaccine was 97.2 percent effective, with no variation in efficacy by age. The currently used vaccine, Zostavax, made by Merck & Co., is 70 percent effective in people 50 to 59, 64 percent in those 60 to 69 and only 38 percent effective in those 70 and older.

There were more adverse events in the vaccinated group, mostly pain at the injection site, muscle pain and fatigue, a few of which lasted as long as three days. But on average over the course of three and a half years, there was no overall difference in side effects between the placebo and vaccine groups.

<snip>

[alarimer]

131. The chicken pox virus never leaves your system; this is why people get shingles.

It is latent in the nerve cells, then for reasons unknown becomes active again.

There is also a vaccine for shingles, which may help prevent a recurrence.

[mcar]

151. Me too

Had shingles in 2010 in my 40s. I felt the pain periodically for the next year. I swear I still feel wafts of it on occasion.

Anyone who can get a shingles vaccine, should.

[dixiegrrrrl]

177. That post shingles pain is not your imagination.

It is called Peripheral neuropathy, that occurs when your peripheral nerves malfunction because they're damaged.
Shingles can do that.

My doc, happily, knew that a low dose of amitriptyline, an anti-depressant, will stop nerve pain in most cases.

[mcar]

178. Good to know

Thanks.

[Warren Stupidity]

120. There is a lot wrong with "big pharma" vaccines ain't one of of them.

[Brainstormy]

32. Don't know about everyone. Just me.

The only time I've had the flu in 20 years was two days after a flu shot. Never had another.

[HuckleB]

126. The plural of anecdote is not data, and the flu shot didn't give you the flu.

You likely didn't even have the flu when you claimed to have had it. I doubt you even know what it is.

[pnwmom]

47. I started getting them after I had the flu followed by pneumonia three years in a row.

It's been more than ten years without the flu or pneumonia.

Nobody gets the flu from the vaccine shots. There is no live virus in the shots. (There is live virus in the nasal spray.)

[Raine]

53. ops posted in wrong place nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

55. Flu shots have been free in most places I've seen them.

And the vaccine only works against a particular strain, not against every strain (and since it's prepared in advance of flu season estimating the most likely epidemic strain is not always precise). It's not "big pharma making money off the worried well" (if it were you'd see a lot more TV commercials with taglines like "ask your doctor about NoFluJect", or whatever).

[Orrex]

79. Most people I know who choose not to get the flu shot...

suffer from terminal smugness and/or some degree of anti-vax zealotry.

[demmiblue]

124. Oh my!

[alarimer]

130. Then you are a disease vector

Even if you don't get sick, you can carry it and pass it on to people who are more vulnerable. Everything you've stated is incorrect, by the way. You might try to educate yourself on the value of this vaccine.

Your friends didn't get the flu because of the shot. This, from the CDC:

Can a flu shot give you the flu?

No, a flu shot cannot cause flu illness. Flu vaccines given with a needle are currently made in two ways: the vaccine is made either with a) flu vaccine viruses that have been 'inactivated' and are therefore not infectious, or b) with no flu vaccine viruses at all (which is the case for recombinant influenza vaccine). The most common side effects from the influenza shot are soreness, redness, tenderness or swelling where the shot was given. Low-grade fever, headache and muscle aches also may occur.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/misconceptions.htm

Now, the flu vaccine does not protect against all flu viruses (there are far too many). They are made for the viruses scientists think will be most prevalent. Sometimes they are wrong and the vaccine is not as effective. That is probably what happened to the people you know.

[CreekDog]

133. show a study to back up your contention

or else it's just blah blah blah, you might as well be denying global warming.

[gollygee]

140. As I said elsewhere in this thread

My husband was the same way until we went on an expensive vacation and the three people who had the flu shot enjoyed the vacation while he spent the whole vacation in the hotel room sick with the flu.

[Skittles]

149. it's a dead virus

so, no, they did not get the flu from a flu shot

[EvolveOrConvolve]

158. Those of us that are immuno-compromised thank you

[Jim Beard]

2. I am 69 and will darn sure take them.

Already have.

[redstateblues]

6. At age 67 I decided to get a flu shot.

Happy to report I didn't get the flu. I did the year before. I'm astonishingly healthy )

[pnwmom]

48. You had some symptoms, but the shots contain no live virus. So you had a reaction

but that isn't the same as the flu. (Or you might have been coming down with some other virus just before you got the flu shot.)

[CaliforniaPeggy]

11. My cardiologist always asks me if I got my flu shot, and I always say YES, I did.

I'm waiting this year, since my husband has a cold and I don't want to get the shot while I might be fighting off the cold.

I have never had the flu, or damage from any flu shot. They give it in the deltoid muscle, which is the place to do it.

I am a retired RN, BTW.

[TexasProgresive]

66. My dear, Peggy thanks for the info on the injection site.

I clicked the link but am not a WSJ subscriber. The snip they give doesn't cover the "wrong" injection site that is causing the injury. So I've been reading all the replies which devolved into a Sh*tstorm of flu vaccine BAD/GOOD.

I'm going off topic as well but you brought it up, my dearest Peggy, you are one of my heroes. I always appreciated you in the past from your balanced and thoughtful posts, and you obvious love for people. But now you have iced that cake with the revelation that you are one of those special people, a registered nurse. I hold nurses and teachers as the greatest unsung heroes of the world. If this swells your head too big for your cap-buy a new one. You deserve the praise.

I don't think it will harm you.

[womanofthehills]

82. If you can't link to Washington Post article - here is an explanation

A good description from a law firm - recommending you get your shot at the doctors office not pharmacy

SIRVA is an injury caused when a vaccine shot is given in the upper part of the arm and the needle penetrates the joint instead of the intended muscle. This can cause nerve damage, leading to pain and loss of range of motion. The U.S. Court of Federal Claims, the court that handles vaccine-related cases, has recently begun recognizing SIRVA as a compensable injury and awarding damages to those who can prove their case. In order to prove that you suffered harm from SIRVA, you must show that you had no injury to the shoulder prior to the vaccine, that you suffer from constant pain now and that you have lost range of motion in the affected arm.

If you can prove the above elements, you may be entitled to tens of thousands of dollars in damages. In past years, most SIRVA settlements have been between $20,000 and $150,000. Over 100 people affected by SIRVA have been compensated since the year 2011. What is interesting about SIRVA cases is that they tend to stem from vaccines administered at pharmacies as opposed to clinician’s offices.
- See more at: http://vaccinelaw.com/lawyer/2015/10/10/Vaccine-Injury/Awards-Increase-for-Shoulder-Injury-Related-to-Vaccine-Administration-(SIRVA)-Cases_bl21599.htm#sthash.99PgWS4o.dpuf

[uppityperson]

119. Thank you for that. I had a bad shot once. Make sure they swab lower on your deltoid, not at the

joint. It's easy to avoid that area.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

86. Aw, my dear TexasProgresive...

Thank you!

That was very kind of you...

[womanofthehills]

172. Here is another link quoting the WSJ article if you can't open it

It is not news that vaccinations, although they can be beneficial, cause side effects for some people.
You might be surprised to learn, however, that since 2011, the government has paid about $18 million to 112 “Sirva” victims. “Sirva” means “Shoulder injury related to vaccine administration.” In other words, the contents of the vaccine were not at issue in these claims, it was instead how the vaccine was administered to the person compensated.

Twenty more claims are pending and dozens are being reviewed by lawyers as there are an increasing number of immunizations and more awareness about “Sirva.”

Three women were among those featured in a recent Wall Street Journal (WSJ) article about “Sirva” cases. A 39-year-old registered nurse from Louisiana was awarded $1 million in 2012 based on a “Sirva” injury she claimed resulted from a flu vaccine administered in 2010. A 52-year-old emergency room doctor from Indianapolis received $92,500 in 2014 in a “Sirva” case reported after a flu shot in 2012. A 77-year-old retired housekeeper from Pennsylvania, filed a claim after experiencing excruciating pain following a flu immunization in 2012. She was awarded $75,000 in 2014 after her doctor had told her that her shoulder pain could not be related to receiving the shot.

Who is paying for these vaccine claims?
The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) is a federal program which began in 1988 following Congressional passage of the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986.
http://www.ohio.com/blogs/legal-news/legal-news-1.513148/injury-from-a-flu-shot-could-mean-compensation-1.624685

[athena]

12. I've never had the flu.

Too many people confuse the flu with the common cold. They get a flu shot, then catch a cold, and they think the flu shot gave them the cold. This country would be in a much better place if probability and statistics, not to mention biology, were required courses in high school.

[cwydro]

15. True dat.

The flu is very different from a cold.

[Freddie]

23. ^^this^^

There are some really bad colds that can make you think you have the flu. Co-worker was out sick for a week and convinced she had the flu, got tested at the doctors--nope. I've had the real flu a couple times and it's different, comes on quite suddenly and you feel like you've been hit by a truck. I get my flu shot every fall.

[uppityperson]

26. Some people also confuse gastroenteritis with influenza, or say "it's just bronchitis" when they are

doing the post influenza hack hack hack.

Gastroenteritis is nausea, vomitting, diarrhea, typically caused by another virus (norovirus for example) or food poisoning.

Bronchitis is the hacking cough you usually get for 3 weeks after having influenza.

If you don't hack, probably not influenza.

[geomon666]

13. This reminds me

I've gotta get my flu shot on my next visit.

[womanofthehills]

24. Don't get it too high on your arm

[Thinkingabout]

28. I have had the flu in my younger days, I know the difference in the flu and a cold,

I have been getting the flu shot regularly for years, plan to continue, know the flu shot does not cover every variety of flu. I am out in the public, hang out with seniors, yes I will continue with the flu shot.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

34. Look, one of DU's resident anti-vaxxers is "concerned" about the flu shot.

[HuckleB]

127. Yup.

[dflprincess]

36. Having had an A-strain influenza in my mid 20s

and it being the second worse illness I've ever had (measles being the worst - pre-vaccine days for that) you bet I started getting flu shots once they became available.

Yes, some years they guess wrong and don't get all or even most the strains into the vaccine but I've never had influenza again and I'll keep getting vaccinated.

[Warpy]

37. Unfortunately, pharmacists are legally prevented from giving shots

anywhere but the deltoid, a big mistake IMHO. It's a small muscle on a lot of people and not that easy to hit properly.

I've managed to sweet talk one of the local pharmies into spearing my rear end, but only because I was a nurse.

[GulfCoast66]

40. I did not know that

Fortunately I am a big guy with big arms. But my wife not so much.

Can her doctor or nurse give it in other locations?

[Warpy]

42. The office nurse, NP, PA, or even the doc can do it.

Some states allow medical technicians to do it but laws vary widely.

Tetanus shots are especially bad in the deltoid. They barely hurt at all in the gluteus.

[ismnotwasm]

123. I don't know--I don't see how you miss a 90 degree angle in the deltoid

Although it's apparently happening. We even use 5/8 needles on certain patients. It just a weird shot to miss. Plus-- although the glut is bigger, there is still a known risk for an improperly administered shot. It's not like you make the whole butt. You have a narrower actual margin.

[Warpy]

125. 90 degrees? There's your problem!

We were taught bevel up, thumb on the insertion point, enter an inch or so above it aiming up and back at a 45 degree angle into the thickest part of the muscle. Of course we also used longer needles.

It's not a big muscle and a 90 degree angle will have you hitting bone in small people, something I guarantee you will feel all the way up your arm. Shudder.

[ismnotwasm]

128. What if it's a larger person?

You still use 45 degrees?

And yes we use 90 degree angles--there is no problem, unless some doofus is aiming it at the shoulder

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

39. Really? Too high on the arm?

What the fuck is that about?

I'm an older person, in my late 60s, and I don't get flu shots. I've had the flu any number of times growing up, and anyone who understands just how the immunity works will understand this.

I got the flu in 1957, when the Asian flu was going around. A type A flu, the most deadly of all. I think I got flu once or twice since, and haven't gotten the flu since the early 1970s.

In 1918, during the truly terrible flu Pandemic (usually called the Spanish flu although it may have actually originated in Kansas) one of the notable features was that older people, those at least 50, simply didn't get it. That was because a similar flu outbreak had occurred some 50 years earlier, and so all those who'd been exposed (and survived) during the earlier outbreak, were now immune.

I've been through several major flu outbreaks, and either contracted the flu or didn't. I have strong faith in my own immune system. Which isn't to say that those of you who think a flu shot is a good thing out to forego them. Your immune status is probably different from mine. For example: I had chicken pox as a child. Survived quite nicely, thank you, but this means I'm at definite risk of shingles. So I got the shingles vaccine several years ago. Alas, the vaccine doesn't guarantee immunity from shingles, but it's understood to greatly reduce the severity of an outbreak. Plus, one of my sons got shingles when he was only 20, the poor thing. And alas, they don't give the shingles vaccine to young people.

Anyway, there really is no one solution fits all. If you think it's a good idea for you to get the flu vaccine, then do it. Me, I'll pass, at least for now.

[GoDawgs]

51. Slightly off topic, but i think the consensus is it started in China

Excerpt from long article:

The origins of this influenza variant is not precisely known. It is thought to have originated in China in a rare genetic shift of the influenza virus. The recombination of its surface proteins created a virus novel to almost everyone and a loss of herd immunity. Recently the virus has been reconstructed from the tissue of a dead soldier and is now being genetically characterized. The name of Spanish Flu came from the early affliction and large mortalities in Spain (BMJ,10/19/1918) where it allegedly killed 8 million in May (BMJ, 7/13/1918). However, a first wave of influenza appeared early in the spring of 1918 in Kansas and in military camps throughout the US.

https://virus.stanford.edu/uda/

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

52. Actually, the reason we have the

yearly shift in influenza is because of the raising of pigs and fowl together in China. The two species pass the influenza virus back and forth, quite happily. Neither of those two species get ill. But when the virus moves to humans, oh crap. We get ill. Sometimes we die. If we could persuade the Chinese to stop raising pigs and duck together in close proximity, the entire world would be better off.

I wish I could recall the specific book in which I learned this. Alas, it was many years ago, sometime in the 1990s. The connection between pigs, ducks (and to a lesser extent chickens) all commingled in China isn't very well known in the West, and that's a shame. There are lots an lots of books out there on this topic. One of the best is The Great Influenza by John Barry. Among other topics, he talks about how President Woodrow Wilson was on the verge of drafting every single man in the U.S. between the ages of 18 and 45 to handle the manpower needs of the Great War, when the Great Influenza outbreak of 1918 occurred. Incredibly enough, that didn't accelerate the plans to draft almost every man in the country.

The influenza outbreak of 1918 changed lots of things, but has been largely forgotten. Read this book.

[Freddie]

61. I have that book

Kinda heavy reading and didn't get very far, I'll have to go back to it.
The horrible toll of the 1918 pandemic was worse because the disease targeted healthy young adults. Buried in my church's cemetery is 2 brothers in their late teens who died of flu on the same day.

[Exilednight]

111. You're going to have a very tough time convincing China.

China looks big on a map, but most of it is uninhabitable due to terrain. For a country with about a 1/4 of the world's population, they're limited in land. They're cities make Manhattan look like a quiet suburb.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

114. That is precisely the problem.

It's efficient for them to raise the two species together, never mind that it's the prime source for most influenza in the world.

I read some other book about influenza that I believe was written in the early nineties, because that's when I read it. That book described in careful detail about the three main kinds of flu (imaginatively named types A, B, and C) and how flu evolves and so on. It came down very hard on animal husbandry as practiced in China.

I believe that book also noted that old people generally didn't get the flu in the great pandemic of 1918 because most of them had been exposed to a similar flu some fifty years earlier.

[GoDawgs]

173. PoindexterO you're correct, that interspecies crossover is where the novel protein profiles

Get created. Add in the infiltration of new varieties from migrating fowl (which simply have to stop at a pond on your farm in order to add new flu genes) and its like a virus WalMart.

Something else that contributes is that China in the rural regions has a long established deeply ingrained culture of 'bush meat' (selling wild caught animals that we would consider weird or exotic animals as food) in the markets. This also applies as the rural folk move to the cities and carry their customs with them . Sometimes the mixing occurs using these animals as the mixing species for the crossover novel flu strain.

Thanks for referring the book, i'll check it out.

[smirkymonkey]

181. I had always wondered why the flu virus originated in China

every year. Isn't there anything that can be done to lessen the risk? If something threatens global health like that why can't something be done about it?

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

185. As stated above,

China is not about to change its ways of farming or animal husbandry. Which is too bad.

[GulfCoast66]

85. Read 'The Great Influenza'

It is a very in depth book about the 1918 pandemic which, from memory, I think first appeared in 1916 or 1917...in Kansas.

American farm then were more like Chinese farms now with people living in close proximity to fowl.

[HockeyMom]

84. Same true for the 2009 Pamdemic

as the one in 1918. People over 50 weren't getting that one because they had it before. I worked in an elementary school then. It was all the kids and young staff getting the flu; including those who had their flu shots. The 30 something classroom Teacher where I worked not only got her flu shot, but even wore a mask into class. She still got the flu.

Those of us in the school who were 50+ were joking that it looked more like a Senior Center than a school. We could not get Subs because it was so bad. The school combined some classes because so many students were out sick. We TA's with degrees were pulled out of our own classes to Sub for Teachers.

What would they have done without we healthy "old folks" around? The vaccine must have been a bad "match" that year.

[DawgHouse]

43. Wow! This happened to me years ago.

The first flu shot I had was when I worked at an elementary school. My arm hurt so bad I went to the doctor after about two weeks of pain. I told him it was after the flu shot and he said there was no link. I feel vindicated now!

[womanofthehills]

46. The shot can go into the bursa instead of the arm muscle

When a vaccine is injected too high on the arm, the needle intended to go into the arm muscle instead goes into the bursa, a fluid-filled sac that protects the tendons of the shoulder. Vaccines are supposed to provoke the immune system, and here, they provoke the immune system to attack the bursa, leading to pain and sometimes a frozen shoulder. With steroids and physical therapy, some patients are able to recover—but not all.

So why the sudden increase in cases? Lack of standardized training may be one factor. And getting vaccinations has gotten much easier in the past decade, with many shots available at pharmacies. “At a pharmacy, you don’t take your clothes off, you just pull your shirt down a little,” says Bodor. “That’s only going to expose the top part of your shoulder.”

Little data, however, is available to confirm what role pharmacies play in the rise in SIRVA cases. In any case, the problem is certainly not exclusive to drop-in vaccinations. Cassayre got her shot at a Lucky pharmacy, but Steele got hers at a doctor’s office at Scripps Health, a top medical center in San Diego.

http://www.wired.com/2015/09/cases-shoulder-injuries-vaccines-increasing/

[longship]

49. The flu vaccine is a dead vaccine.

There is no way that one can get the flu from the vaccine. Period!

But don't take my word for it. Instead read what an infectious disease physician has to say.

Why Get a Flu Shot

BTW, anti-vaccination lunatics make the world more dangerous for everybody.

Get your vaccines! Make sure that all your kiddies do too.

I remember fucking polio in my primary school before the vaccine. Students would just disappear. Some would come back with leg braces. When the vaccine became available, everybody queued up to get it. EVERYBODY! I remember that the shot hurt a bit. But I also remember those students who suddenly disappeared.

Get your vaccines, folks!

[womanofthehills]

138. You are responding to the wrong person - I never said you can get flu from the vaccine

[longship]

141. My bad. Such things happen on iPhones.

Sorry.

[C Moon]

50. That happened to me when I was 25. My first flu shot.

It was painful and it felt like my shoulder fell out of it's socket.
I've had shoulder problems since. Crazy!

[HeiressofBickworth]

57. I rolled the dice once too often

Just about three years ago, never having had a flu shot, i contracted H1N1 flu. It is a serious thing. I had congestive heart failure and renal failure. I was in the hospital for over a week. Fortunately, the CHF cleared up and my kidneys resumed working. Not wanting to risk a potentially lethal flu, I now get the flu shot every year and encourage others to do the same. You can roll the dice if you want, but it's one risk I'd rather not take.

[Hekate]

68. When I was young I got the flu about once every 7 years. Then my luck ran out...

...though not as severely as you. In late middle age I got the flu and then a respiratory infection and then pneumonia. After that I decided to get the shot every year.

Still, we have a coterie of DUers who swear their DNA is so superior they have no need of vaccinations for anything, and that if the rest of us ate our spinach we'd be the same. Or something.

[stevenleser]

162. I have gotten it every year since 1989. No ill effects from the shot and I never got the flu.

I'm probably the most vaccinated DUer having had military vaccinations and then vaccinations for working in a hospital for a while.

I have never had any ill effects from any vaccines.

[Hekate]

163. I've never had any ill effects from any vax that weren't entirely routine and expected

Some redness, some swelling, some tenderness. It's hardly a crisis.

Oh well, the Tetanus vaccine made my whole arm sore when I was just a kid, but Mom explained lockjaw and we agreed it was a good tradeoff.

And the Smallpox vaccination left a scar, which is what it was supposed to do. When I was at university one of my fellow students was an Afghan who had survived a case of smallpox back in the old country, and was significantly disfigured. I think the dime-sized scar on my upper left arm was a good tradeoff.

[RobinA]

187. I Don't Think

it is "superior" DNA, I think some people are just genetically more immune to the flu than other people. Those are probably the people who say they never get the shot and never get the flu. I am one. They may be less immune to something else. I walk around with a more or less chronic sinus headache. Screwed up facial plumbing. We all have out inherent strengths and weaknesses. Luck of the draw.

[marble falls]

60. Sirva. Really good and useful information. Thanks!

[librechik]

62. I've had the flu. I'd rather get Sirva

than risk getting the flu again.

[Squinch]

63. Studies show that there is really no reason for everyone to get the flu vaccine.

Granted that the studies generally suck and most are funded by the vaccine makers, but mostly the actual studies are finding that the vaccines are not terribly effective, have no effect on morbidity, and do not reduce the use of medical services when comparing those who get the vaccine to those who get a placebo.

I know I'll get reamed for saying this here by the paid pharmaceutical poster army, but the flu shot is kind of a boondoggle for the flu shot companies.

I get it when I am working with the elderly or the very young, though even then I know that it isn't likely that the vaccine is protecting me against the current flu virus. Otherwise, I don't get the shot at all.

(And because there will be demands for links, here's one among many and I do encourage looking at the comments from dozens of doctors that are included with the article: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/855937_2

And because inevitably the pharma army here will discredit the source of that, here's what DU has said about Medscape in the past: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021090811)

[Ilsa]

64. I read that it was the nasal spray vax

that was frequently ineffective, not the injectable vaccine. And it is possible for that year's virus to be slightly different from the virus the vaccine was made for.

But overall, I don't get the flu when I take the flu shot.

[Squinch]

65. No, it's the vaccine in general. Also, it is very, very strongly recommended for the elderly,

but the elderly are the least likely to get the flu.

The whole program is based on very little, and it is certainly not based on good science.

[HockeyMom]

71. I'm 68 and never had the flu shot

or the flu in about 20 years. Back during the 2009 Flu Pandemic at 61 years old, I worked with special needs young children and held them in my arms while they were burning up, coughing, sneezing, and wiping their hands on my face. Can you have any more exposure than that? I still did not get the flu. From the time I was a young child until my 40's, I got the flu just about every February like clockwork. You might have something there about the elderly least likely to get the flu. Why? Probably because we had many different strains of it for years.

What made me question flu shots? I worked for a major pharmaceutical in 1976 during that flu fiasco. This corporation was NOT telling their own employees to get the flu shot, let alone giving it to us for free. Nobody at work even talked about the flu. Why not if it was so dangerous? Didn't this pharmaceutical have a vested interest in their own employees not getting sick? Personally, I think that was an Advertising test run to see if the public would buy the fear and get flu shots. If President Ford is on TV getting his flu shot, I better get mine?

[Squinch]

73. That is the likelihood: that you have some immunity due to your years of exposure.

Which would suggest that receiving the flu vaccine for many years running would provide some blanket immunity, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Interestingly, they say that those who were exposed to a strain in the 50's seem to have the elusive blanket immunity.

The comments on the article I linked were interesting. There's one comment from a doctor who is widely published on the subject of the flu and the flu vaccine in peer reviewed journals. His idea (though he urges study of it) is that if we could get the very young universally vaccinated at much lighter vaccine levels, that would do it. But that is not likely to happen. So instead we keep going as we are, a program based on myth and advertising.

[womanofthehills]

179. The CDC says the elderly and very young get the least protection from the flu shot because

you need a strong immune system for the shot to work good - most effective on older children and younger adults

Does the flu vaccine work the same for everyone

How effective is the flu vaccine in the elderly?

Older people with weaker immune systems often have a lower protective immune response after flu vaccination compared to younger, healthier people. This can result in lower vaccine effectiveness in these people.
If vaccine works less well in older people should they still get vaccinated?

Despite the fact that flu vaccines can work less well in people who are 65 and older, there are many reasons why people in that age group should be vaccinated each year.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaccineeffect.htm

[cwydro]

74. Thanks for posting!

Many here seem strangely invested in the flu vaccine.

[Squinch]

75. In typical DU fashion, there seems to be an inability to distinguish between criticism of a

non-scientifically supported vaccination program (which is the kindest description of our current flu vaccine program) and anti-vax in general.

Personally, I'm all for any vaccine that comes along and is proven effective. I get 'em all!

So far the flu vaccine is not in that "proven effective" group. The studies are terrible, and those terrible studies generally show that the years of widely recommended and received flu-vaccination has had little effect on public or individual health.

[cwydro]

77. Well said.

yes, someone called me an anti-vaxxer last night. I've had all the standard vaccines, and if I had had kids, they would have had them too.

Funny how hysterical some get here over certain issues.

[Major Nikon]

93. When someone is pushing nonsense, the motivations just aren't that hard to figure out

The flu vaccine is studied for effectiveness every single year, and there hasn't been a year studied in which the flu vaccine wasn't effective.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/vaccination/effectiveness-studies.htm

Whether you realize it or not, pushing stupid anti-vax bulslhit actually does manage to kill people.

[Squinch]

94. That doesn't really measure vaccine effectiveness.

According to the article:

These studies compare the odds of vaccination among outpatients with acute respiratory illness and laboratory-confirmed influenza infection to the odds of vaccination among outpatients with acute respiratory illness who test negative for influenza infection.

In other words, what percentage of patients with respiratory illness had the flu versus the percentage that didn't have the flu. That is not a measure of the vaccine's effectiveness.

Furthermore, there is no clear trend that shows a change in flu incidence.

If you're going to tell me those first two entries show that more people had the flu, I am going to point you toward the 95% confidence interval numbers for those two entries, which show that the data for those entries is pretty much meaningless.

[Major Nikon]

102. So to test the flu effectiveness, we should only test people who didn't have adverse outcomes!

Brilliant!

The flu vaccine is effective in saving lives and preventing hospitalizations and we know this from peer reviewed studies published in reputable journals based on double blind studies which are the gold standard of evidence unlike the obvious correlative evidence not based on double blind studies you are pushing which you also conveniently ignore doesn't control for a much larger set of factors.

And sure, the author of the OP also claims not to be "anti-vax" yet always seems to exaggerate the risks associated with vaccines and pretends to impeach rock solid studies with obviously more dubious ones. She also is a huge fan of quacks like Food Babe, Mercola, et al who love pushing even more dubious and even less supportable "big pharma" conspiracy theories.

So yeah, all the anti-vaxxers claim not to be anti-vaxxers until you start actually reading the nonsense they are promoting.

[Squinch]

154. Sigh. No. As you say, we should be looking at double blind studies. This chart is not that.

And I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that I'm pushing correlative evidence because I'm not.

And PS: those double blind studies you are talking about give very little evidence that the flu vaccine has any benefit for healthy adults. They test sick adults, and children, but there's not much double blind study evidence of benefit for healthy adults.

[Major Nikon]

160. Gotta love how anti-vaxxers regurgitate one opinion as the end all to everything

CONCLUSIONS:
In the 2004-2005 season, in which most circulating viruses were dissimilar to those included in the vaccine, the inactivated vaccine was efficacious in preventing laboratory-confirmed symptomatic illnesses from influenza in healthy adults. The live attenuated vaccine also prevented influenza illnesses but was less efficacious. (ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT00133523.)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17167134

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18618057

Double blind studies prove efficacy, which you falsely claim doesn't exist. Another study of widespread vaccination proves the effect of overall mortality and health care use, which you also claim doesn't exist.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18959473

Another thing you posit (falsely) is that because the vaccine has little to no benefit on healthy adults, there's no reason to vaccinate everyone. Even if this were true (and it ain't) the very best you'd have is it might make a good libertarian argument that those who are infants or old should just die anyway so the population is stronger. For those that actually employ the virtue of empathy, the idea of vaccinating the many so the few don't die or get very sick has merit.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16725240

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19368772

[womanofthehills]

139. Looks like some years the flu shot is less effective esp. for older people

This is from Jan 2015

This year's flu vaccine is only 23 percent effective against this year's predominant strain, H3N2, according to a new report out today from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

In the middle of a bad flu season, it turns out the vaccine doesn't offer much protection against the flu because the predominant strain is H3N2 because it has mutated since the vaccine was created and manufactured, according to the CDC.

Scientists had to select strains for the vaccine back in February," said ABC News chief health and medical editor Dr. Richard Besser. "Between then and now the flu virus mutated significantly. Unfortunately, it is too late to make a change for this year. We are stuck with the vaccine we've got. CDC still recommends people get vaccinated since some protection is better than one."

The shot is even less effective among people over 50 years old, protecting against only 14 percent of the viruses, according to the new report.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/flu-years-vaccine-worse-thought/story?id=28249130

[Major Nikon]

146. Less effective /= not effective

Do you think the flu shot does not save lives every single year?

[Warren Stupidity]

121. hmmm - your link is behind a wall.

Not behind a wall is what the CDC has to say about the flu vaccine:

What are the benefits of flu vaccination?

While how well the flu vaccine works can vary, there are a lot of reasons to get a flu vaccine each year.

Flu vaccination can keep you from getting sick with flu.

Flu vaccination can reduce the risk of flu-associated hospitalization, including among children and older adults.

A 2014 study* showed that flu vaccine reduced children’s risk of flu-related pediatric intensive care unit (PICU) admission by 74% during flu seasons from 2010-2012.

Another study published in the summer of 2016 showed that people 50 years and older who got a flu vaccine reduced their risk of getting hospitalized from flu by 57%.

Flu vaccination is an important preventive tool for people with chronic health conditions.

Vaccination was associated with lower rates of some cardiac events among people with heart disease, especially among those who had had a cardiac event in the past year.

Flu vaccination also has been shown to be associated with reduced hospitalizations among people with diabetes (79%) and chronic lung disease (52%).

Vaccination helps protect women during and after pregnancy. Getting vaccinated also protects the developing baby during pregnancy and for several months after the baby is born.

A study that looked at flu vaccine effectiveness in pregnant women found that vaccination reduced the risk of flu-associated acute respiratory infection by about one half.

Another study found that babies of women who got a flu vaccine during their pregnancy were about one-third less likely to get sick with flu than babies of unvaccinated women. This protective benefit was observed for up to four months after birth.

Flu vaccination also may make your illness milder if you do get sick.

Getting vaccinated yourself also protects people around you, including those who are more vulnerable to serious flu illness, like babies and young children, older people, and people with certain chronic health conditions.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaccineeffect.htm

Oh and they back those stats up here: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/benefit-publications.htm

[mcar]

152. Great links!

Thanks, Warren.

[gollygee]

137. Yeah, my husband used to say that too

But then we went on an expensive vacation and the three people in the family who had the flu shot had fun and he spent the whole vacation in the hotel room feeling horrible.

[TexasProgresive]

69. SIRVA an acronym for Shoulder Injury Related to Vaccine Administration

Since I couldn't access your WSJ links I did a search of SIRVA. This snip gives some clarity as to the problem. When I did the search most hits were from lawyers so I guess there is money to be made by the product liability sharks. It won't be long that I will be seeing ads about this.

https://www.verywell.com/shoulder-pain-after-vaccine-injection-sirva-2549798
SIRVA is thought to be the result of incorrect placement of the vaccine into the shoulder joint or the shoulder bursa, rather than in to the deltoid muscle tissue. When the vaccine is injected into the synovial tissue of the joint or bursa, an immune response may occur causing severe inflammation. Typical symptoms of SIRVA include:

Significant chronic shoulder pain after a vaccination
No prior problems with the shoulder
Limited mobility of the shoulder joint

Patients diagnosed with SIRVA may find relief with treatments targeted at controlling the inflammation such as oral medications and cortisone injections.

[Motley13]

76. a flu shot every year for about 40 years

40 years, no flu

I also got the pneumonia shot & the shingles shot.
I'm not taking any chances.

[TexasBushwhacker]

132. I'm going to add pneumonia and shingles this year

Especially since I've already had pneumonia 3 times! I'll be 60 in January, so it's time.

[SDANation]

87. Holy Shit....

Reading some of these posts makes me think of the republican climate deniers.

First, yes getting a shot in your arm does have risks as you have nerves, bursa and other tissues prone to damage. It's the fault of the improperly trained person giving you the shot not the position on your arm.

Second, for those of you saying, "oh I've never got the flu and never get the shot" or "I got the shot and then got the flu". To the first line of thinking. The flu is one of the only viruses to mutate extraordinarily rapidly, so even with best technology it's still a best guess based on previous virus. Bill maher uses this as an argument not to get it and it enrages me as a healthcare professional. That's like saying, "well I drink and drive all the time and never got caught, so I'm good." The flu is deadly, especially for the young, old and immunocompromised. I pray that one of the above posters doesn't give his 90 year old mom the flu, because that would pretty much be a death sentence. And often those who say that they got the flu from the vaccine have little to no knowledge of immunology and vaccines. The flu vaccine is a dead virus. The only one that could get you sick was the nasal spray. And it is not being used anymore as it was deemed less effective. So most likely what you confused the flu with was a rhinovirus.

And big pharma? Really? Next you can start calling people sheeple. Oh I have my gripes about the pharmaceutical industry, but 90% of the time, they have saved millions of lives. Through vaccines, which have eradicated disease. Through BP meds, medical technology, pharmacology, cancer treatment, etc... Jesus Christ, I would expect democrats to side with science.

[Squinch]

92. Do yourself a favor and read up on the efficacy of the flu vaccine.

The clinical and empirical data suggests that widespread use of the flu vaccine has had no effect on the incidence, cost or morbidity of the flu.

So if you want to side with science, you should acquaint yourself with what science is actually finding, rather than just believing in something you have been told and criticizing those who don't live by the same myths.

[SDANation]

95. I work in the field

And have studied virology and immunology extensively. The only one denying science here is you. Here, it's from the big bad CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2016/flu-vaccine-60-percent.html

I'm sure you have data to back up your claims?

[Major Nikon]

104. Pfft! That information is easily debunked!

They only tested people who actually got sick and not healthy people!

I mean after all, who really needs science when you have completely unsupportable conspiracy theories?

[SDANation]

106. Haha!

[Squinch]

161. A press release. I'm totally convinced.

The CDC's definition of vaccination effectiveness is very odd. It doesn't really look at effectiveness, rather it

compare the odds of vaccination among outpatients with acute respiratory illness and laboratory-confirmed influenza infection to the odds of vaccination among outpatients with acute respiratory illness who test negative for influenza infection.

That's from this article from the CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/vaccination/effectiveness-studies.htm

In other words, what the CDC is defining as vaccine effectiveness is what percentage of outpatients with respiratory illness had the flu versus the percentage with respiratory illness that didn't have the flu. That doesn't really tell us much about the vaccine's effectiveness at all.

As far as data, here's a meta-analysis you can start with. It analyzes peer reviewed studies through 2013 on the effect of the vaccine on healthy adults:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD001269.pub5/abstract;jsessionid=96780A7CC76A9AF58372894444AE3F04.f02t03

To summarize, they found that most of the studies were badly designed and less than 10% had "good methodological quality." They found many of the studies were industry-related. They found that

The preventive effect of parenteral inactivated influenza vaccine on healthy adults is small

and

Vaccination shows no appreciable effect on working days lost or hospitalisation.

[SDANation]

98. Do yourself a favor...

And gain some knowledge of basic science.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/misconceptions.htm

[RobinA]

188. Good Job

fighting this battle, but you cannot win. The indoctrination is too complete, as it has the seal of approval from the CDC. Currently, flu vaccination is a bit of a sacred cow supported by an army of straw men, the most common being that if you believe the science saying that the flu vaccine is not particularly efficacious you are an anti-vaxxer. Yeah, whatever.

[Motley13]

145. same as people that don't get their children vaccinated

not only do they endanger their child but all the others they come in contact with.

Remember polio? TG for the CDC

[Skittles]

150. excellent response

I detest people who peddle bullshit about the flu vaccine

[ismnotwasm]

96. I've given many flu vaccines

It goes in the deltoid--I'm just baffled how anyone could miss this.

[SDANation]

100. Poorly trained MA?

[MineralMan]

103. Really. I go to a Minute Clinic for mine, and a nice

NP there always seems to be able to find my deltoid for the injection. I can find that muscle myself on anyone, but I don't administer IM injections.

Anyway, this is the first anti-vax thread about the influenza vaccine I've seen on DU this year. Must be time to drop into the Minute Clinic again. Time sure passes quickly, doesn't it? When the anti-vax threads start, it reminds me to get mine.

Lots of misinformation about this every year. Yes, the flu shot is perhaps only 60% effective. So? It decreases my chance of getting the flu, and that's more than worth a stick in the arm on an annual basis. I've only had the flu once in the past 15 years. I hate having the flu. It sucks bad!

I'll get mine this week, I think. I have some time.

[Major Nikon]

108. The often quoted 60% figure is not the effectiveness of preventing the flu at all

It's the effectiveness of keeping you from having serious complications as a result of the flu. The effectiveness of keeping you from getting the flu are much higher.

The flu also manages to kill quite a few people. In 1918 it killed 40-50 million people worldwide. In 2009, about 10-20K people died in the US alone from the flu. The flu vaccine undoubtedly saves thousands of lives per year and could potentially save millions. So those pushing anti-vax bullshit are unquestionably killing people with their batshit crazy conspiracy theories.

[MineralMan]

110. OK. The anti-vaxxers like to think that they're convincing people.

They're not, though. People will make their own decisions. It's just another case of unqualified people telling others what to do about health issues. Why would anyone listen to unqualified people's advice?

[Major Nikon]

113. Even if one doesn't want to investigate the science, their claims just don't pass the smell test

The claim is that there MUST be a "big pharma" conspiracy theory because at the macro level, the flu vaccine isn't effective. So even if one doesn't want to investigate the obvious holes in that claim, you are still left with the obvious fact that insurance companies and employers routinely cover the full cost of the flu vaccine. And why? Because they know at the macro level it saves them money. How's that for a conspiracy theory?

[MineralMan]

115. Anti-vaxxers have no real claims to make.

They're just promoting their point of view. To what end, I have no idea. Why would they care if someone they don't even know gets a flu shot? I can't imagine advising anyone not to do something that has extensive support from actual science. Odd...

I think they should skip the vaccination, if that's their choice, but I think they should keep their uninformed advice to themselves.

[gwheezie]

105. I get and give flu shots

The deltoid is a safe injection site. I've never had the flu since getting flu shots every year.

[TexasBushwhacker]

135. How many vaccinations can you get at once?

Just curious. I don't want to overload my immune system, but I'd just as soon get as many at once as I can. I get my 10 year DT vaccine this year, but I'll need flu, pneumonia and shingles as well.

[moondust]

116. SIRVA victim here.

I got a pneumovax booster in 2015 and thought at the time that it was administered too high on my arm. Started to have some discomfort and pain almost immediately. I didn't say anything and just assumed that the pain would gradually go away.

Six months later and still having pain, after searching the web and finding out about SIRVA I finally made a doctor's appointment to have it checked out. They set up physical therapy and I went in for about six sessions. That helped some but it's now more than a year later and some mild, intermittent pain persists that sometimes radiates down to the elbow and forearm.

I mentioned it to my sister-in-law who said she thought she had the same thing once and her pain persisted for a couple years.

[ismnotwasm]

122. Where on your arm did the injection happen?

I'm thinking it has to be close to the actual shoulder to miss the deltoid. Administering vaccines in the deltoid is easy to do compared to the old school Z-track IM injections of anti-biotics and such high on the butt. There is a sweet spot between the hipbone and the upper cheek-- and we knew about injuries from IM injections administered there incorrectly from way back.

I'm thinking this is the same kind of deal--improperly trained staff, mostly.

[womanofthehills]

144. Some illustrations of where the injection should be

[ismnotwasm]

148. Thank you

I am an RN, and have given many, many injections of varying types, and I'm pretty careful with the anatomy of others.

I find this particular injury concerning.

[moondust]

170. To be honest,

I wasn't paying very close attention when the shot was administered. Just routine stuff. But within a minute or two after the shot my arm started to hurt a bit. I shrugged it off and assumed it would go away. Six months later it still hurt so I started searching Google. I was skeptical about SIRVA because many of the Google links were by law firms advertising settlements for it. Sure guys . My PCP didn't confirm or deny a diagnosis of SIRVA but just sent me to PT.

I do not blame anybody for whatever it is as I know from lots of experience that shit stuff sometimes happens.

(Sorry about the slow reply; busy all day. )

[dlwickham]

142. interesing because I have bursitis and I've always had the flu shot on my upper arm

I should bring this to my doctor's attention

[eilen]

143. Last year I gave the flu vax to nearly everyone on my unit

The deltoid is very easy to locate. The only thing I can conceive is perhaps the person administering it is not given enough access?-- Are they just pulling the neck down the shoulder not far enough?

I just can't with the anitvax shit. I heard Donald Trump did a whole YouTube speaking against vaccinations and that won over this one person I know who labors underneath the woo of evil vaccinations. I think she follows Mercola.

[Major Nikon]

147. The poster of the OP is a Mercola fan

[womanofthehills]

164. Not true - you always hassle me with this lie

[Major Nikon]

166. Please do keep denying it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7882438

[womanofthehills]

168. So I once posted something from a site that posted an article that Dr. Mercola had also posted - OK

So let me get this straight, I have to avoid all sites that may post the same article that might have been posted on Dr. Mircola's site.
I'll try.

[Major Nikon]

169. Nice try

Mercola didn't just happen to post the same article. He wrote it.

Feel free to admit Mercola is a complete nutbag. Might be interesting since meanwhile your favorite hero, Food Babe, gleefully regurgitates everything Mercola says, including the utter nonsense that running water through a blender makes it healthier. So there's that.

[SwankyXomb]

153. Woo posts belong in Creative Speculation and nowhere else.

[womanofthehills]

165. What is woo about SIRVA? ????

You would not think it was woo if it happened to you.

[CreekDog]

180. Your characterization below the article is the woo and creative speculation

It's dishonest to try to protect your woo by posting it with a legitimate article

It is an admission on your part that your argument is not convincing unless paired with dishonest tactics

[MineralMan]

183. Nothing. It is caused by improper injection procedures.

So, how many people have had that happen to them? Do you have any numbers? Improper administration of many things can cause problems, but it is the technique used that is faulty, not the thing administered.

Of course people should be given any vaccine properly. If they are not, and the injection is made in the wrong place, it could cause a problem. But, how often does that really happen? You don't say in your OP.

The problem is not with the flu vaccine. The problem is with people administering the injection improperly. So, how many people has this improper injection technique actually injured? That's a legitimate question. How many people get the injection without any bad effects and how many suffered from an improper technique used in the injection?

Without those numbers, it's really hard to draw the conclusion that people should worry about this.

[REP]

174. Omg I've been getting vaccinations in both arms and I needed extensive surgery in both shoulders!

Massive tendon and muscle damage. The ends of my clavicles had to be removed. They told me it was damage from my hypermobile joints and extremely severe arthritis, but now I know they're just shills of Big Pharma who were covering up SIRVA so I'd just keep getting their poison shots. I'll show them. I'll just get the flu this year.