Looking for improbable ways to keep Trump out of office is a waste of time.

[MineralMan]

Since the election, a number of posts have appeared on DU that propose some way of preventing Donald Trump from becoming President. Most of those posts are based on an incorrect understanding of things as basic as the Constitution. Let's look at a few of them:

1. A Presidential Candidate Cannot Be Impeached - Only a sitting President can be impeached, and only for actions while serving as President. Given the Republican control of both houses of Congress, impeachment after he takes office is highly unlikely, unless he shoots someone dead in the Oval Office. Any past criminal activities are irrelevant.

2. The 25th Amendment Cannot Prevent Him from Taking Office - Like impeachment, this amendment only applies to sitting Presidents, not Presidents-elect. Further it would require the Vice President and a majority of the Cabinet to declare that sitting President to be unfit to continue in the office. It was created for situations where the President becomes disabled in some way, not for removing Presidents who are not liked. Consider, too, how likely it would be for a Cabinet selected by the President to declare the man who chose them to be unfit.

3. Recalls in Three States Might Reverse the Election Outcome - While this is technically possible, it is unlikely in the extreme. Statewide recounts occasionally shift the results by a few hundred votes, but almost never by tens of thousands. Further, a recount simply recounts the votes AS CAST. It does not involve investigation into voting irregularities, suppression, or any other shenanigans. Those would require a lengthy investigation, but would not prevent a President-elect from taking office, nor remove a sitting President. It might change how future elections were handled, but will not lead to a removal of a sitting President.

4. Something Irregular Might Be Discovered after the Inauguration to Reverse the Election - A sitting President can only be removed from office through impeachment and conviction or according to the terms of the 25th Amendment. Both are addressed above. Even if there was wholesale election fraud, once the President takes the oath of office, the means of removing a President remain the same.

5. Electors Might Change Their Votes and Reverse the Outcome - This will most assuredly not happen. It's possible that one or two electors will be unfaithful, but there is not a chance that enough will to change the outcome. That is not how things work. It's just not.

6. Donald Trump Might Not Get 270 Electoral Votes for Some Other Reason - That would not matter, and is so unlikely that it's almost unimaginable. Even if it did, it would throw the election into the House of Representatives. If that happened, Donald Trump would win there, too. It's a seriously flawed thing to pin one's hopes upon.

Really, the only way Donald Trump will not be inaugurated will be if the recalls in WI, MI, and PA result in flipping the vote totals. All three of those states. I would not put any money on that happening. The probability of that set of circumstances approaches zero.

[dumbcat]

1. "That is not how things work. It's just not."

Right. That's what we said about the possibility of Trump being elected. "That is not how things work. It's just not."

Enough faithless electors to flip the election IS possible. Very,very unlikely, but possible.

[MineralMan]

2. Well, elections can go however they go.

We've seen that happen more than once.

How often have electors thrown a two-party election result into the House?

Unless you can name some electors who will switch their vote to Hillary, I'm seeing the possibility of that as a zero chance sort of thing. I've hear no realistic discussion of that possibility, just blind speculation based on wishful thinking.

[dumbcat]

3. I know that you know the difference between

possibility and probability. Why are you trying to conflate and confuse them?

[MineralMan]

4. It's possible that the Sun will explode this afternoon at 3:45 PM EST.

I have plans for 4 PM, though.

I deal with probabilities, frankly. Anything is possible, so I don't plan my life based on possibilities. If I did, I'd buy lots of lottery tickets. Instead, I buy none.

[MFM008]

5. We realize all these things

Why can't we bitch about them anyway?
Doesn't change anything???
Look this ass wipe will never be my president
I hope he drops dead on a daily basis.

[MineralMan]

24. While you may know all those things, you are probably not

able to speak for all DUers. Like a lot of people, I write things here as I please. Even if you don't need the information, perhaps others will benefit from it, but thanks for taking the time to reply...

As for your hope for Trump, I would never post such a thing on a public forum.

[MFM008]

36. well that's you isnt it.

And I dont "KNOW" anything for sure and I always speak for just me,
so thanks for the patronizing "mansplaining" .
And I still hope the fat bastard drops dead.
IN A PUBLIC FORUM.

[pbmus]

56. Frankly, my dear, I do not give a damn...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512629364

[MineralMan]

58. Yes, well, OK then...

That's a nice philosophical position to take. However, if you live in this country, you'll be affected. Perhaps less than others, but affected nevertheless. I have privilege, too. It's unearned, like most privilege. Whatever I can do to lessen the impact on people with less privilege, I will do. Bottom line is that Trump will almost certainly be the President of the United States. I live here. I assume you do, too. Due to that, what he does will affect you.

[Hoyt]

6. I'm moving on, so to speak. Trump won and all the conspiracy theories, whining, etc., aren't

going to change that. Frankly, I think we look like whining Birthers or something similar with all the votes were hacked junk, electors should switch, the recount will be a sham, etc.

[BainsBane]

7. Yes, I'm afraid you're right

It's good to verify the vote, but people should not attach their hopes to its outcome. It's time to start organizing about what we can do while he is president. I'm attending an organizing meeting this week for that very purpose.

[Thinkingabout]

59. I agree, probably there will be deep remorse for those who did not vote or voted for another

Candidate then HRC, what we have to do is stay engaged and organize, there will be midterm elections and if Trump performs like I think he will we have to be ready. We have a large pool of smart and capable Democrats available. I would like to see someone like President Obama as chairman of the DNC, he ran a great grass roots campaign.

[Dem2]

8. I have to agree

I think the recounts should be done, of course, but the chances of his not being inaugurated are slim to none.

[jmg257]

9. At least the recount(s) are a thing now...reading that is better then seeing 80 different threads

about some computer scientist who notes "there are deviations from polls, but are not likely a hack", I'm all for 'em.

[MineralMan]

32. Recounts are part of the election process. I'm following them, for sure.

But, I've seen many recounts. Very few have changed anything much, except in some local elections. However, we have Al Franken as Senator due to a statewide recount in Minnesota, so things can happen. Still, it kept him from participating in the Senate for months. That's not possible with the office of President. There will be a new President on January 20. There has to be. There's no way to delay that, even for a day.

[jmg257]

34. Thanks for the info! nt

[Proud Liberal Dem]

65. I think that with Franken, he was already considered the winner

It was Coleman whom demanded the recount as I recall (though I could be mistaken)

[MineralMan]

66. Nope. Coleman had more votes in the initial count.

That was reversed in the recount.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

69. I stand corrected. Thanks

it's been 8 years and my recollection was hazy.

[NightWatcher]

10. We need to securing the infrastructure that we'll need during our Resistance

The Police State will hit the ground running on Day One.

All of this woulda coulda shoulda was needed before the election. We will have trump on Jan 22. His minions and evil geniuses will control every aspect of the government.

We must prepare for Resistance.

[HipChick]

13. We must prepare for keeping communication channels like DU running

as part of The Resistance..
I expect his minions to monitoring anything non-Pro Orange Hitler..

[Kingofalldems]

11. Damn. How many posts like this do you have now?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028311709

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028309169

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512621601

I guess we can't do anything eh?

[MineralMan]

25. Why does that matter to you?

If you don't find my posts of use to you, you can simply skip them. Others might find them useful.

But, thanks for taking the time to reply. Really.

[bigmonkey]

68. It matters because you are framing the issue.

Your reputation is one of a very calm, considered voice, hence the framing you are promoting seems to me to be that recounts or exhorting the electors to vote their conscience are excited, ill-considered actions. But clearly, saying "It's not, it's just not" is in no way evidence.

I can't bring myself to question your motives, so I'll simply ask: what is the harm you are trying to prevent? For instance recounts, specifically, put attention on the unreliable, manipulable nature of our voting systems - it's hard to get most people to pay any attention at any time, despite the incontrovertibly poor quality of those systems. Why discourage that?

[Exilednight]

12. Many, and I stress that I do not mean all, diehard supporters

are having a hard time moving on.

What they don't realize is that every second spent on futility is wasted time. We need to focus on making Trump a one term president.

Our energy needs to be spent with deter.ining what turn this party needs to take. Do we double-down on Clinton type moderates, do we move slowly left with another Obama type, or do we shift to a complete agent of change like Bernie?

[eleny]

14. It's all about who is allowed to vote

[Exilednight]

18. Not when over 40% of eligible voters stay home.

[MineralMan]

30. I'm more concerned about all those people who didn't vote

at all. That, to me, is the target. If we had universal voting, things might well be different. We don't. Bottom line is that most people who are eligible to vote, and that includes people who aren't even registered, don't vote in any given election.

[Exilednight]

40. Many people do not vote because they do not see a candidate

that inspires them. When our candidate has an upside down likeability number, is not inspiring on the stump and wants to pragmatically work around the edges of existing law, then there is not a lot there to get people motivated when they see a broken system that needs to be overhauled.

[MineralMan]

41. Yes, some do not vote because of that.

Others do not vote for other reasons. People who are eligible to vote, but who do not even register to vote are another group, a group which I do not understand well at all. I don't think anyone does. They are the people who never vote, really. They puzzle me, yet they make up a large group of potential voters. I don't know if they would have voted for Trump or Clinton. They don't vote for anyone.

If even the people who are registered actually all showed up, it would be amazing. They don't, though, at least not all of them. In Minnesota, about 75% of registered voters voted. The other 25%? Who knows?

[jonno99]

63. I have a friend at work who claims he never votes. His excuse? "All politicians are crooks".

Cycle after cycle I'm unable to get him engaged.

It's a little frustrating; luckily he is unique in my circle.

[eleny]

46. I bet it's not all about apathy - which of course is one problem

Here in Colorado we all can vote by mail and we have a very high level of participation.

Don't other states with easy registration and voting also have high participation.

So apathy is not the major reason for people not voting. It's the barriers to voting that result in too many throwing up their hands. I'm with Greg Palast on this issue.

[MineralMan]

48. I don't know. Minnesota had the #1 turnout this year, at about

75% of registered voters. Still, though, 25% didn't show up or vote by mail or early. And then there are all of those who aren't even registered. Nobody really knows how many of those there are accurately or why they aren't registered. There are truly no barriers to voting in Minnesota. Here, you can even register to vote on election day if you want. Our precincts are small and there are never any lines. Polling places are in walking distance for everyone, at least in the cities. In rural areas, that's not always true, of course. But, still, 25% or so of registered voters don't vote.

Our elections measure less than half or all eligible voters, if you count the unregistered residents.

It's a shame. But so it has been just about forever. I doubt that can be fixed.

[eleny]

49. If every state had 75% participation Clinton would be president elect right now, imo

The more Dems vote, Dems win. Paul Weyrich preached that back in 1980. He was right. Suppress the Dem vote and Dems lose.

[MineralMan]

26. Exactly. Time is moving on, and so must we.

Rehashing the past and hoping for miracles is not productive.

[bigtree]

15. no, that's just not true

...politics isn't static.

The right political moment to attack Trump's presidency isn't waiting somewhere after January 20, it's now. ANY effort to dethrone Trump needs to gain traction,. That effort will take repeated advocacy from now until the water breaks.

IF something is uncovered in the next 50 days that is so vile and so disqualifying as to capture the political wind, our political system is flexible enough to bend to the public's revulsion.

I find these posts dampening expectations of so many frustrated, but active folks to be the height of political dithering. We should be doing something more than tut-tutting motivated Democrats.

[TwilightZone]

16. There were dozens of things that would have disqualified any other candidate.

One more isn't going to matter, especially now.

As Trump himself said, he could shoot someone and his part of "the public" wouldn't flinch. They'd just justify it the same way they've justified every other event that should have disqualified him. He already shot a bunch of (supposedly) sacred cows during the campaign and nearly half of the voting public still voted for him.

As for tut-tutting motivated Democrats - there's being motivated and there's creating false hope. I'd have to agree with the OP that many of the things many are investing a lot of time and effort believing will/could happen are so unlikely that they're not worth the time spent on them.

He's more likely to get impeached, and even that's probably a pipe dream. The most likely way we get rid of Trump is that he tires of the game and quits.

[bigtree]

19. my experience in politics goes back to Watergate

...and you never know what is going to spark action. It's almost certain that just one digression exposed isn't going to make a difference, but it's normally a confluence of misconduct and one incident, event, or statement which sparks enough interest to propel a scandal to the point where it places a politician's career at risk. In that effort, a theme or pattern usually emerges which confirms guilt to the public. One thing for sure, that moment isn't going to come from a cold stop after waiting for Trump to be inaugurated. Political action requires momentum.

Besides, most everyone recognizes the odds against successfully confronting power. That shouldn't be used to discourage anyone from seeking or expecting remedy for abuses by politicians, no matter how daunting or unprecedented those expectations may be. Politics isn't static, it's dynamic and amorphous. We should always expect to make a positive and substantial difference.

[cilla4progress]

29. Yes!

This!!

[Exilednight]

44. Thin what you're saying through to its logical end.

If Trump gets not knocked down, then Pence takes his place. The EC votes for both positions.

[bhikkhu]

17. The less of a mandate he has, the better

...and his mandate is pretty negative already. I doubt very seriously anything will happen to keep him from inauguration, but the weaker he is, the more discredited his campaign and behavior become, the better. I see no benefit from backing down or letting up on him - zero tolerance and total resistance, eyes wide open, is how you fight fascism.

[Sunlei]

21. as the transition crawls along,wonder if the twit has smacked anyone close to him yet.

[kcr]

22. This is ridiculous. Changing the votes and reversing the outcome isn't the only benefit

It is true that the chances of any of those things happening are remote. But those aren't the only reasons to audit elections. Discouraging that only encourages those who act in bad faith. If a Trump election encourages people to pay attention to the process, that is not a bad thing. It is not something to be discouraged. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that it isn't likely to change the outcome. But it does not then follow that it shouldn't be pursued! It is not a waste of time.

[citood]

35. I don't think the OP expressed opposition to the idea of a recount

Rather, he cautions against getting one's hopes up that the recounts will change the outcome.

Recount away...but I agree with him that this is a hail mary.

[kcr]

70. The OP called it a waste of time.

I don't know about you, but I interpret that as a negative POV.

[jmowreader]

23. The Constitution doesn't say anything about WHEN your high crimes had to have occurred

The GOP spent a very long time trying to gather enough evidence against Bill Clinton to impeach him, and almost everything they were working on were things he supposedly did before he was elected president. They were able to come up with an offense he did while president to impeach him for, but if the Whitewater investigation or Richard Mellon Scaife's Arkansas Project would have uncovered an impeachable offense they would have used it.

Also remember: if Hillary would have won the Electoral College the GOP was planning on opening impeachment hearings the day after her inauguration on Benghazi and the invented email scandal.

He WILL take office and there's only one path to becoming Trump-free before 2021: he's got to do something so egregiously evil that the Republicans in Congress fear for their seats if Trump isn't removed. I have complete faith in his ability to do just that; what I don't have faith in is the willingness of Congress to remove him for the good of the country.

[treestar]

61. Exactly, so looking for ways to block him

or impeach him now are not wasted. We are so kind to Republicans and cave to them too much. They don't do the same for us. The golden rule: treat them as they treated us.

[jmowreader]

64. This is a time to keep our powder dry, but be prepared to use it

Bearing in mind that you can impeach a ham sandwich for the crime of being a ham sandwich, I think if we try to get Trump impeached for something like running a scam that falsely represented itself as a university or for putting half the staff of the Lubyanka on his campaign team it will be laughed off by the Republicans as Trump Being Trump. Eventually, though, he and Pence will do something Nixonian - nit just bad, but bad enough to jeopardize the seats of the House and Senate Republican Caucuses if they don't get rid of the bastards. At that point we don't let the Republicans get away with just allowing them to slink off into the night like we did with Nixon and Agnew - THEY HAVE TO BE IMPEACHED!

[Lint Head]

27. There is a thing or two that could be done to prevent

this dictatorial pig from taking office but they are unthinkable.

[cilla4progress]

28. Any good reason not to work

on ALL fronts??

[MineralMan]

31. On what fronts are you actively working?

Are you going to be working on the recounts? Are you preparing legal briefs? DU is just a place to talk about stuff. It doesn't amount to working on much of anything. I certainly realize that. I haven't found anything particularly useful to do right now, after the election. So, I'm working on making my living. I've neglected that somewhat.

[cilla4progress]

37. I am

calling - DOJ, President, my Senators

emailing - same + WI Senator Tammy Baldwin, Nordstrom (see "Million Snowflakes" on FB...telling Nordstrom I will not shop there so long as they carry Ivanka Trump's prodcuts)

signing and forwarding petitions

donating to the recount

donating to ACLU

posting the above on FB

wearing safety pin

attending rallies

Pass your muster?

[MineralMan]

38. Nobody has to pass any sort of muster with me.

Thanks for your work and for telling us about it.

[cilla4progress]

39. OK, you bet.

I am up at 3 am some mornings with this on my mind. I have decided that my response to this travesty is to work in every way available to me to stop or derail it. I'm not giving up and plan to use any / all means necessary, short of violence. This includes non-violent demonstrations and strikes (check out orangeflu.com), as well as the aforesaid means.

I am somewhat fortunate in that I am close to the end of my working life witha grown child, though there are still constraints - financial, practical, "political."

Thanks.

[Turbineguy]

33. Our best option is that

Putin finds out that he can't control Trump.

[DinahMoeHum]

42. There IS a way to remove him from office. . .

. . .unfortunately it's not fit for further discussion here.

[milestogo]

43. How about lets all sit back and do nothing but grumble.

[Bucky]

45. Damn you

and your blasted Vulcan logic

[treestar]

47. this is why we lose

What do you think Rs would be doing in this situation? How about a meeting to agree to block everything and make him a one termer?

[Gothmog]

50. Once the electoral college votes, then it is impossible to stop trump

Faithless electors are not likely but I was pleased to see that Prof. Tribe and Lisa Bloom will defend these faithless electors

[ismnotwasm]

51. Thank you

I understand people want hope, but damn.

[MineralMan]

54. I appreciate that. Others are damning me over this.

The reality is that none of us has much to do with the outcome at this point. That's frustrating, I know, but there it is. We failed to deliver enough votes for Clinton to win. That part is our fault, to some degree. Had we done so, we'd be celebrating instead weeping. Other factors are in play, no doubt, but, had turnout for Clinton been larger those factors wouldn't matter. To win, we have to win decisively, and that means getting everyone to the polls to vote for the Democratic candidate. We didn't do that in 2016. Now, we have to deal with that, and it's really, really painful.

My concern now is for those who will suffer from a Trump administration. I'm hoping to find ways to help keep the suffering to a minimum for specific groups and to help Trump from getting everything he wants. Still, I'm just one guy in Minnesota, so my impact won't be very large, but I'll try as best I can. I'll exercise what privilege I have.

[RKP5637]

52. Yep, Trump, will be the next president. Whatever happens after that, who knows at this stage ... n/t

[CincyDem]

53. Good summary. Chances of any reversal are slim and none...

...and Slim just left town. ( you knew that was coming).

I can't wait for all the initial angst to settle down so we can get on with some real opposition. Schemer and Pelosi are going to have to really step it up. Dems have been fighting so long for a vision of the future that I don't think we remember how to fight for survival. Rules are a little different and both elected officials and voters are going to have to learn from it. The first step to getting back on track to the future is getting back in the room...and on that score we have a lot of work left to do.

[MineralMan]

57. Well, some are already fighting Schumer and Pelosi here.

It's difficult to understand, frankly. Both have long experience in legislative matters. Both understand how their houses of Congress operate and know the details of how to make the rules work. And yet, there are those who would replace them with far less experienced hands.

I hope we don't continue to engineer our own failure. That would be a real shame, IMO.

[BainsBane]

62. But they don't cut it

For those who see the responsibility of elected officials as arguing on TV rather than legislating. We're in the reality TV age of politics. Is there any wonder the highest office goes to a showman?

[NWCorona]

55. I happen to agree with this. IMHO the only viable option to stop Trump is #5

and I just don't see it happening. There might be something that comes out that is so disgusting but I think that is unlikely. I'm surprised that out of all the opposition research done on Trump we only got the Bush tapes and Alicia Machado.

[treestar]

60. The Republicans would never do this

Never say a thing like it. Nothing negative is a "waste of time." And they seem to be rewarded for it. We would have said of Hillary's emails there is nothing there, waste of time to investigate.

Even if it does not change the outcome, it can undermine the Orange Toxin and make his supporters upset and insecure. They deserve every bit of that. And to see the extent of the opposition to him. If we drop all the recounts, they see us a weak, accepting they are in charge and believe me they will take charge.

Haven't we learned anything? Quit being reasonable and worrying about looking bad. It doesn't win.

[TheFrenchRazor]

67. (legitimate) recounts are not about TRump or Hillary; they are about the integrity of the vote. nt

[Mike Niendorff]

71. I agree.

And I will fight the good fight anyway.


MDN