General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums'CalExit' - state's economy is large enough for California to become a sovereign country.
(California is now the sixth-largest economy in the world, surpassing France, thanks to a robust state economy and strong U.S. dollar.)
http://www.snopes.com/2016/11/09/calexit-campaign-planning-post-election-surge/
In our view, the United States of America represents so many things that conflict with Californian values, and our continued statehood means California will continue subsidizing the other states to our own detriment, and to the detriment of our children.
Although charity is part of our culture, when you consider that Californias infrastructure is falling apart, our public schools are ranked among the worst in the entire country, we have the highest number of homeless persons living without shelter and other basic necessities, poverty rates remain high, income inequality continues to expand, and we must often borrow money from the future to provide services for today, now is not the time for charity.
If California established sovereignty, the campaign argues, it would be able to implement educational and healthcare-related programs addressing the state's issues while retaining Social Security and Medicare rights for residents, since they would be dual citizens of both California and the U.S.
The campaign also published a map showing California reconfigured into 16 states if it were to secede.
Chasstev365
(5,191 posts)I would go in a heartbeat!
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Louis Marinelli heads the secessionist group Yes California. Following the election of Donald Trump to the presidency, the organization has gone from an unknown fringe group to one discussed seriously in mainstream media.
What has not been discussed as prominently is Marinellis deep ties to Russia.
A former right-wing activist from Buffalo, New York, Marinelli first moved to Russia almost a decade ago. He studied at St. Petersburg State University, the alma mater of Russian President Vladimir Putin. He returned to the United States to campaign against LGBTQ rights as part of the National Organization for Marriage.
frankieallen
(583 posts)go from an unknown fringe group to one discussed seriously in mainstream media.
And he lives in Russia?
Anyone else find this interesting??
Madam45for2923
(7,178 posts)yuiyoshida
(41,832 posts)As a resident, I would encourage it, however knowing how Trump is, he would probably Nuke Los Angeles or San Francisco just for spite.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)RKP5637
(67,111 posts)away civil rights all over the place, which I suspect we will looking at the cast of characters, then succession could be real. IMO it could also happen with some other states. The US IMO is moving into significantly uncharted territory. I also think they might eventually try to turn the US into some type of theocracy, FFS.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)RKP5637
(67,111 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)no guarantees on that score.
Initech
(100,081 posts)What happens to that?
angstlessk
(11,862 posts)Congress does WHAT for California?
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)don't think it would be a severance of all relations or anything like that. I think what is going to happen is, if the Trump regime starts trampling on civil rights, etc., etc., we're going to see a momentum like this build up across several states.
My hunch is something is going to happen, the tensions across this country are significant, and I don't think it can all be mushed together into one happy bunch. It's just too diverse and the GOP is too intent on authoritarianism.
Initech
(100,081 posts)They're the ones who are dividing the country over petty bullshit. The polls are clear - the public wants liberal policies. The public wants liberal leadership. The GOP and the NRA are the ones who are dividing and conquering - mainly over that precious second amendment. The GOP conquered the media and is denouncing anyone with an opposing viewpoint. It's fascism 101.
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)frankieallen
(583 posts)Initech
(100,081 posts)Tikki
(14,557 posts)British Columbia and part of Mexico,
Call the Country 'PACIFICA'.
Even in CALEXIT, I would be so proud to be called a CHUMASH.
Tikki
angstlessk
(11,862 posts)...I would be there in an instant!
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)The Americans did invade Canada twice, and threaten annexation around 1850. Three times is quite enough.
Tikki
(14,557 posts)Their economy is strong and they end up supporting more of Canada then they should have to.
Tikki
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Ontario and Québec. But the point is that dividing will not solve anything, and it raises a host of issues.
Tikki
(14,557 posts)I can hope a forward thinking place like B.C. would acknowledge a progressive community.
PS We already have a host of issues called Red States and trump.
Tikki
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)Horse with no Name
(33,956 posts)it will only take one state to do this.....and then other states would join in
Tikki
(14,557 posts)Tikki
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)would be best. The divisions are so great and just seem so fixed, this last election demonstrated that. I really doubt the country is going to come together, because far too many want authoritarianism and some even a theocracy.
Horse with no Name
(33,956 posts)even those that I share genetic material with.
I can't see this divide being bridged.
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)bridged IMO.
nini
(16,672 posts)Makes the rest of the country weaker.
Such bizarre times we live in..
Madam45for2923
(7,178 posts)nini
(16,672 posts)I missed that thread earlier.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)nini
(16,672 posts)I was bringing up the fact the Russians have a part in this.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)russia does or doesn't want us to do. sorry, but i make my decisions independently.
nini
(16,672 posts)whatever...
You obviously think you can read my mind. You should get a Vegas gig going and make some money off that talent.
Madam45for2923
(7,178 posts)IMO they protest too much! I'd think they would find the info interesting and germane.
Just weird!
nini
(16,672 posts)I live in California and the Russian aspect of this wouldn't change my mind one way or another on how I feel about CalExit.
It does however seem pretty bizarre considering all the other stuff going on.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)The PQ ran on a platform of separatism, arguing that the economy of the Province of Québec was strong enough to allow it be a separate country.
But that road would lead here to the Balkanization of this country, as would have happened in Canada if secession had been successful.
This sounds more like fantasy history, or alternate history. An interesting exercise in fiction, but ultimately unworkable.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And how much of that division is caused by the terribly unequal economic and racial situation?
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)a lot of that division is because of racists, religious fundamentalists, and other people who reject the values of a modern liberal society (look at most of the South for instance). Race has something to do with it (the demographic shifts that mean that non-Hispanic whites will be an absolute minority in 30 years or so are fuelling a lot of rural white resentment), but racial inequality doesn't, so much.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)and the resultant violence.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)"economic inequality" was not a major concern for Trump voters. (We have polls.) What was a major concern? "Immigration".
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Not saying that economic inequality was a stated reason, but that it is the underlying reason.
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)see this in just about every rally Trump held. That, was the main theme. And IMO that is now out of the bag and likely is not going to change.
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)RKP5637
(67,111 posts)Tikki
(14,557 posts)Tikki
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)They tried that once
Tikki
(14,557 posts)I am not up to speed on Texas.
Tikki
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)Tikki
(14,557 posts)I remember people saying the same things in this thread they did in posts about Texas thinking of seceding.
That was a while ago, before this election.
Tikki
Yupster
(14,308 posts)in 1861 even with the governor pleading with them not to do it.
Didn't matter. They got stomped back into the Union anyway.
Lots of Texans today would join Trump's army for a chance to stomp California too.
Tikki
(14,557 posts)Tikki
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)However a United States that makes a permanent swing to being protectionist and insular is going to economically smother California. That would be the catalyst.
Tikki
(14,557 posts)As the rest of their world becomes more protectionist and insular, it will pull us down or pull
us in.
We have NOW a strong economy.
Tikki
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)pangaia
(24,324 posts)citizens of California to have dual citizenship?
Because if that is the case, it could be a problem.
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)the next few years.
Tikki
(14,557 posts)SS and Medicare will be short lived in the other Country ruled by republicans.
Tikki
pangaia
(24,324 posts)the article says, ".....while retaining Social Security and Medicare rights for residents, since they would be dual citizens of both California and the U.S. "
Tikki
(14,557 posts)It would be a different World...but cutting loose of the weight would feel progressive and
even the alt-right says people stick together and help each other out when they need to.
Tikki
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Tikki
(14,557 posts)I hope we can do something.
I think the reason people dream of a better, more progressive place is out of necessity.
Tikki
Yupster
(14,308 posts)would set up their own entitlement programs, no doubt a lot more fair than the current ones.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)So the smallest US state has a GDP larger than 91 sovereign countries.
Therefore all US states are large enough to be sovereign countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)Tikki
(14,557 posts)Tikki
Madam45for2923
(7,178 posts)Louis Marinelli heads the secessionist group Yes California. Following the election of Donald Trump to the presidency, the organization has gone from an unknown fringe group to one discussed seriously in mainstream media.
What has not been discussed as prominently is Marinellis deep ties to Russia.
A former right-wing activist from Buffalo, New York, Marinelli first moved to Russia almost a decade ago. He studied at St. Petersburg State University, the alma mater of Russian President Vladimir Putin. He returned to the United States to campaign against LGBTQ rights as part of the National Organization for Marriage.
Marinelli then returned to Russia. He would marry a Russian citizen, and the couple moved to San Diego, where Marinelli launched a political career based on a platform of California secession.
I immigrated to California, and I consider myself to be a Californian, Marinelli says from his apartment in Yekaterinburg, a city of about 1.4 million just east of the Ural Mountains and about 1,000 miles from Moscow.
In an interview with The California Report, Marinelli confirms hes living and working in Russia as a teacher.
More in link plus audio: http://ww2.kqed.org/news/2016/12/13/from-his-home-in-russia-calexit-leader-plots-california-secession/
Cal exit opens "embassy" in Russia
http://www.notey.com/blogs/calexit
There is Louis Marinelli in burgundy suit!
SEP 2016. Moscow welcomes the (would-be) sovereign nations of California and Texas:
The speaker was calling for Californias independence from the United States.
Alexei Gavrilko nodded approvingly. A burly, bearded, camouflage-wearing separatist from eastern Ukraine, he said he had come to the posh Moscow hotel just outside the Kremlin to communicate with colleagues representing separatist and secessionist groups from the United States, Europe, the Middle East and the former Soviet Union.
During a conference dubbed the Dialogue of Nations, Gavrilko listened carefully to Louis Marinelli, head of the Yes California group that is determined to hold the Golden States independence referendum in 2019.
For the first time in history, we, the people of California, who were conquered and annexed by the American military about 170 years ago, will have a chance to express our voice to either remain a state in the American union, or instead, to pursue a path toward a nationhood, Marinelli said solemnly.
Gavrilko, who is from the unrecognized but de facto independent Donetsk region, and the entire separatist crowd cheered and applauded. They did it again, louder, when Nate Smith, a self-proclaimed foreign minister of the Texas Nationalist Movement, promised that one day, the independent Lone Star state can formally exchange ambassadors with your free and independent countries.
The arrival of Californian, Texan, Puerto Rican, Northern Irish, Catalan, Italian and Lebanese secessionists to mingle with activists from several unrecognized separatist territories in former Soviet republics is becoming a tradition as Moscow turns to belligerent, anti-Western nationalism coupled with a readiness to take up arms against its former Soviet vassals.
Moscow uses these gatherings to promote its political agenda, gain more political leverage in the West and push for the lifting of Western sanctions imposed on Moscow after its 2014 annexation of Crimea and support of the separatists in eastern Ukraine, a former lawmaker with the ruling United Russia party said.
The more the West is disunited, the more beneficial it is to Russia, Sergei Markov said, adding that the secession of California and Texas a prospect that would appear to be something of a long shot would undoubtedly benefit the Kremlin.
http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-russia-separatists-snap-story.html
The more the West is disunited, the more beneficial it is to Russia,
The more the West is disunited, the more beneficial it is to Russia, Sergei Markov said, adding that the secession of California and Texas a prospect that would appear to be something of a long shot would undoubtedly benefit the Kremlin.
http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-russia-separatists-snap-story.html
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)Tikki
(14,557 posts)Will it happen!!...in a Democratic run State...who knows. It might.
Tikki
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)what he says? your repeated statements about this do absolutely nothing to make any substantive case as to why CA and other states should not secede.
onenote
(42,714 posts)Calista241
(5,586 posts)California is a donor state now (and this is a recent development), but the Federal gov't has contributed uncountable billions of dollars to California since CA joined the union.
Just the physical assets, interstates, military bases, hardware and services provided by the Federal gov't would preclude separation. And that would apply to ALL states trying to leave the union, from Florida, to Texas, to Alaska and California. CA would have to pay the US back for those assets and prior investments that they keep in any separation.
And the rest of the US has complete control of California's water supply. California would have to negotiate for access to freshwater coming from the interior. They'd have to negotiate for travel access to enter the US, to flyover the US, and to export their goods to the US. CA citizens wouldn't be guaranteed travel or dual citizenship with the US.
This would be a catastrophe of unbelievably mega proportions, for everyone involved. There's basically a 99% chance the rest of the US goes to war over this, but assuming the 1% won that argument, CA would be perpetually indebted to the US for all of the shit mentioned above.
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)oneshooter
(8,614 posts)yuiyoshida
(41,832 posts)and if push came to shove, there is a source of energy off the west coast, called wave power, where giant underwater turbines could create electricity. Not to mention all the solar power you could place in places like Blythe and twenty nine palms.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)As there will be very few, if any, that would chance lending to a newly minted nation.
yuiyoshida
(41,832 posts)Right now, there is much wood, being purchased by Japan, wood they don't have access too. As a nation, we have a lot to offer many other countries. There will be a way to raise money, if push came to shove.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)How will you power the state? If you leave the Union, do expect 25-40% of your available power to be shut off.
yuiyoshida
(41,832 posts)There will be many ways of alternative energy. The Ocean turbines are already being built and tested. The state has abundant solar and wind power. There are already many companies installing solar power, including the many roofs, here in San Francisco. There are fields of wind turbines already going up. As mentioned, Blythe and Twenty Nine palms are too areas for more Solar power. Check out this in Japan:
This is already built in Japan and working, and it wouldn't take long for these to go up in California.
Already off the coast of Southern California are many oil oil derricks as well as on certain beaches in Huntington Beach and Long Beach. Until many more alternatives can be built, these will continue to contribute.
Diablo Canyon (2,160 megawatts), near San Luis Obispo is still available.
California can be self sufficient, maybe not NEXT YEAR, but in the near future. If the state was gearing up to make the leap you can bet they will have their house in order.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)But where will the funding for these projects come from. Remember, no more Federal dollars available. The new currency will be worth very little for several years and credit, if available, will be expensive.
Response to RKP5637 (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
brooklynite
(94,598 posts)RKP5637
(67,111 posts)example, civil rights, etc.? Will citizens/states stand idly by?
brooklynite
(94,598 posts)RKP5637
(67,111 posts)would weaken the country. I have a feeling the pendulum is going to swing the other way after people get their fill of the Trump regime for awhile.
sarcasmo
(23,968 posts)RKP5637
(67,111 posts)eniwetok
(1,629 posts)The simple fact is the People in CA are treated abysmally in our antidemocratic federalist system. They, alone, have the moral legitimacy to threaten secession unless democratic changes are made to our federal system.... such as the abolition of the EC.
eniwetok
(1,629 posts)Given the 75 million posts... how many OTHER times was this idea NOT proposed by Russians?
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)Vogon_Glory
(9,118 posts)While I suspect that California's prospects are good on paper for surviving and thriving after seceding from Presidente Trump's Tea-bag Dumbf*ckistan, the problem for the Second Bear Flag Republic would be its water supply. All too much of California's water supply comes from places like Colorado, Utah, and Arizona.
Revanchist
(1,375 posts)Because you know Trump will try to dam any incoming water source that he can
AgadorSparticus
(7,963 posts)Russia or any of our adversaries.
Crunchy Frog
(26,587 posts)That would be a pretty formidable entity.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)I think CA is 1/3rd of it right now.
denbot
(9,900 posts)There is no groundswell to succeed. Breaking up the U.S. is an alt.right/Russian fantasy.
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)jack_krass
(1,009 posts)RKP5637
(67,111 posts)TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)why do you assume anybody would care if CA seceded?
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)They would not want that precedent set, and would do anything, up to and including war, to prevent it from happening..
Ilsa
(61,695 posts)It's not happening, no matter how beneficial it is to Putin.
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)I was all ready to get the hell out of here too after the election. Now ready to fight for the country for all our sakes.
frankieallen
(583 posts)started by a right wing activist, who lives in an apartment in Russia?
Have we all gone mad??
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)Time will tell. I think it could fracture the US. My hunch is nothing will happen.
Nay
(12,051 posts)the 70's, Ernest Callenbach wrote "Ecotopia," which was a best seller among liberals and detailed the process by which California, Oregon and Washington seceded from the US and became an ecological paradise. It is an interesting novel. I personally have always wanted to go live in Ecotopia, but it never arrived. Other novels have contributed to the theme throughout the years. It's hardly a new idea.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)idea. i'm pretty sure some americans thought of it before russia did.
frankieallen
(583 posts)it's own country. Taxes are already some of the highest in the country, as well as cost of living, so many companies may just move over the border to one of the other states, and remain part of the US.
What would immigration policies be in this new country?
Free health care I assume? Housing for the homeless, living wage for everyone?
I don't know what would happen to the economy if they did exit the US, but I doubt it would continue as it is now. Trump would probably want to punish Cali with high import taxes, which would also cause more companies to think about relocation.
The whole idea is stupid if you ask me, and it's all being run by a right wing activist living in Russia.
I won't be suckered into supporting this.
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)lunatica
(53,410 posts)I would have to see the real issues around this. How it would affect Californians.
MFM008
(19,816 posts)To leave Cali will vex the maggot ...I'm in.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)California breaking off will only encourage the bad actors of the world. Do you honestly think that China will not try to cause mischief and gain power, especially as Hawaii is also talking exit? As far as Russia, the chances that they will not try to use CA as a pawn are slim. I actually think mexico's government would not be as likely to cause trouble, namely they would rather take Texas back, but we cannot discount that risk, especially as there are oligarchs of both the legal and quasi legal variety that are capable of causing a lot of harm.
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)OregonBlue
(7,754 posts)proud to live in.
bhowle
(35 posts)Ecotopia by Ernest Callenbach.
First published in 1975 and worth reading today.
(good grief - that was 42 years ago)
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)RKP5637
(67,111 posts)Throd 2.0
(62 posts)RKP5637
(67,111 posts)JSup
(740 posts)...doesn't sound very fun.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)The moment they exit, the other 49 states offer California companies tax incentives to move back. Washington state would be the de facto western seaport with the infrastructure to take California's tech industry.
Would take years of negotiations for this to happen, and by that time, most of Silicon Valley will have moved elsewhere to avoid the uncertainty of a CalExit. And let's not even get into water rights.
onenote
(42,714 posts)There are many reasons, but the simple reason is that the federal government won't let it happen and they have myriad ways of keeping it from happening. Congress will impose trade sanctions -- it will be impossible for California businesses to do business outside the state. Flights to commercial airports will be barred. California won't be able to flash cut to a replacement for social security, medicaid, and numerous other social welfare programs and Congress will pass legislation suspending such payments to anyone who is a resident of California.
Once it is clear that the federal government is prepared to take those measures, California, and any other state thinking of joining them, will fold like a cheap suit, even if you assume they could ever muster enough popular support to start the process.
It's a pipe dream by people who don't want to do the hard work of building stronger Democratic party results in states where we should be able to be competitive.
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)nolabels
(13,133 posts)The problem is more than just Californians issue. The whole freaking country is being used and abused by a very small minority of crooked people. I won't stop till enough get up and do put a stop to it.
Iggo
(47,558 posts)So yeah, fuck no.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Louis Marinelli, who has spearheaded the Calexit campaign since 2015, set up a makeshift embassy in Moscow in December in partnership with far-right Russian nationalists who enjoy Kremlin support while promoting secessionist movements in Europe.
"I have found in Russia a new happiness, a life without the albatross of frustration and resentment towards ones homeland, and a future detached from the partisan divisions and animosity that has thus far engulfed my entire adult life," Marinelli wrote on Monday. "Consequently, if the people of Russia would be so kind as to welcome me here on a permanent basis, I intend to make Russia my new home."
http://www.businessinsider.com/calexit-leader-louis-marinelli-russia-2017-4
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Bizarre story.