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woodsprite

(11,916 posts)
Thu Jan 5, 2017, 12:15 PM Jan 2017

Looking for some rebuttal ideas.

I had shared something that was previously written and our friend wrote:

If you can't afford food - there are many food pantries, churches, and individuals who are ready and willing to help. (For example, I went to the grocery store last night and a woman was sitting out front with a sign that she needed food. She had 2 children and was looking for a job. I asked her to come in and go shopping with me. She was traveling from her mother's house in VA in search of work, had broken English, and she and her husband were traveling in an RV, but we're running out of money to get home. While she picked out shat she needed, a lady handed me $10 to put towards whatever she got, and another lady gave her a bag with some paid for groceries in it. So if Republicans want people to starve, why did so many people step up? )
If you can't afford medical care - there are private options available through donations and grants to hospitals. Currently, many if not all states offer lower cost insurance options to residents.
If you can't afford private school - there should be school choice to allow you to send your child to the school you feel is best for them.
If you are a Muslim, a Jew, or a Hispanic - Hello. (If you are an immigrant, just come here legally.)
If you believe in free speech - great.
If you have an abortion - we wish you would have reached out for help. There are many loving families who would welcome them, including me.
If your child has special needs - do your best to meet their individual needs.
If you exercise your first amendment right to protest - fine, but destroying private property isn't included (ex. Baltimore)
If someone is LGBT - they are committing a biblical sin but are still loved by God.

The government taking money and redistributing it isn't the only answer. People have the right to make their own choices as they see fit.

---------

The way I see it is they're redistributing income as well - just not from the people who can afford to do it if they're buying groceries for people, giving grants to people to have medical procedures, etc. Truthfully, how many people can you support that way vs. having a government program. Just looking for some good ideas to write back to her since all on our FB page can see it.

7 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Looking for some rebuttal ideas. (Original Post) woodsprite Jan 2017 OP
All part of the grand plan... Wounded Bear Jan 2017 #1
Ain't the poster of this happy drivel proud of themselves. Must live in Pleasantville. haele Jan 2017 #2
What I said was: woodsprite Jan 2017 #3
Regarding getting help from churches. progressoid Jan 2017 #5
Lots of logic fails. HughBeaumont Jan 2017 #4
it is called security dembotoz Jan 2017 #6
Many food pantries are running low on food. KamaAina Jan 2017 #7

Wounded Bear

(58,666 posts)
1. All part of the grand plan...
Thu Jan 5, 2017, 12:18 PM
Jan 2017

they grab the lion's share, and we poor folks should help each other out with the leavings.

haele

(12,660 posts)
2. Ain't the poster of this happy drivel proud of themselves. Must live in Pleasantville.
Thu Jan 5, 2017, 01:03 PM
Jan 2017

The post above is form of false equivalency, pre-supposing everyone starts out in life with the same opportunities, born in the same "middle class" economic playing field and has the same emotional support structure in place.

There is no reality in this FB post - it's suggesting that the perfect life is where everyone knows their place and performs a role some autocrat assigns them at birth, no matter what their personal limitations or skills are, or what their environment requires them to do to survive.
These sorts of comments are simplistic Reader's Digest platitudes - and I've heard them time and time again from people - men and women alike - who hide desires, swallow their insecurities and live quietly desperate lies to pretend they are happy limiting themselves to what is "socially correct" to make money and be accepted by TPTB in their communities.

Y'know, it would be a wonderful world if we all lived within the same five-block area with "the Bev" or within a half-hour's walk of John-Boy and Mary Ellen; that we all had an living wage income that came within 5% of each other, that there were always jobs available, that we all owned our own homes, and we all went to the same church and social clubs. It would really be great if nobody was exceptionally rich or poor, that there were no bullies, no ambitions, no mental or physical illnesses, no conditions that could bankrupt a family - and especially that individuals would not have to constantly be fighting the greed, fear, or overweening pride that constantly haunting us during our interactions with each other.

It's a portrayal of the perfect life in Sunday-school cartoon and actually encourages fear of anyone who can not or will not "follow the rules". Anyone who challenges so-called conventional wisdom.

"If you just followed these simple rules, if you stopped fighting or competing and just cooperate with your natural masters, everything will be all right...for me and the masters."

The post above not only encourages a wealth inequality, it redistributes social responsibility from the powerful onto the powerless.


Haele

woodsprite

(11,916 posts)
3. What I said was:
Thu Jan 5, 2017, 04:35 PM
Jan 2017

1) Regarding food - Isn't going to food pantries, churches, and relying on other individuals to purchase food just another way of "redistributing wealth"? I give what I can where I can. If I need to redistribute my wealth to help my fellow man through the tough times so people don't starve or freeze to death, than the rich should pay their fair share as well for the upkeep of this country. That includes helping those who are down and out - most of which are that way due to policy decisions and laws passed by Republican politicians.

2) Regarding medical care - Nobody should have to rely on the goodness of other people or the ability to qualify for a grant or loan to get medical care in this country. PERIOD! If you want a face lift or a boob job -- fine, wait for you loan from a friend or take out a 2nd mortgage on your house. If you need cancer surgery and you can't phone a friend for money or qualify for a grant - you are going to die. There are your death panels.

3) Regarding education - Education of our populace is a right and should be provided fully through public schools. We as a country benefit from an educated populace. Private schools will always be there due to the money they generate for and the greed of their founders. The choice voucher program is a glorified way to privatize education for profit, bleed dry our public schools, and control educational curriculum. Not acceptable.

4) Regarding being a Muslim, Jew, or Hispanic - Many of the people who have been facing harassment during the Trump & Co campaign are AMERICANS. They were born here or are legally citizens. They belong here. It makes no difference to the people harassing them such as the Neo-Nazi crowd, the KKK, the general public in the supermarket, etc. Apparently many feel that America is for white Americans only.

5) Regarding free speech - Free speech is great and is for all people! I wish that Trump & Co thought the same.

6) Regarding abortion - Women have the right to choose and right to control their own bodies. Some people want to take that right away and that is WRONG! Insurance doesn't pay for abortions unless medically necessary and government money doesn't pay for abortions, so that dog won't hunt. There are politicians who are putting forth bills that will allow drs. to deny treatment to a woman if they have previously had an abortion. That is wrong as well! Nobody is making anyone have an abortion. If someone doesn't want one, than don't have one. But nobody should be able to deny me the right to make a decision about my own body. Making abortions illegal again won't do away with them. It just means that women will start dying from them again in back alleys. AND, if they'd promote and allow real reproductive education and birth control, there would be even less of a reason for people to need/want abortions. It's part of the package, and they don't want us to have any of it - no education, no birth control, no abortions.

7) Regarding special needs children - Parents can try all they possibly can to find help or assistance for their children. Some states, laws, policies, make it near impossible. Republicans push private school vouchers for special needs kids, which sounds all well and good, but many disabled students who took advantage of the special ed vouchers forfeited their rights under the federal Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. That meant they no longer had the "right" to a free, appropriate public education, or the services that come along with it. It's possible that has changed with the 2014 update under Pres. Obama.

8) Regarding the right to protest - The right to protest and peacefully assemble is guaranteed. This applies to protest marches, demonstrations, press conferences, public and private meetings, counter-demonstrations, ‘sit-ins’, motionless protests etc. That includes the rights of the Democratic party and one Republican to have a sit-in on the House floor to demand gun control legislation. Much of the violence at Standing Rock was instituted by the police and private security hired by the oil companies, and the violence meted out was different if you were one of the indigenous people or a member of the white faith leaders that were also protesting.

9) Regarding the LGBT community - "If there is no clearly stated directive in the Bible to marginalize and ostracize gay people, then Christians continuing to do so is morally indefensible, and must cease."..."Without an explicit directive from God to exclude and condemn homosexuals, the Christian community’s treatment of gay persons is in clear violation of what Jesus and the New Testament writers pointedly identified as the most important commandment from God: to love one’s neighbor as one’s self." (Huffington Post, 2012, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../the-best-case-for-the... )

Every person has a fundamental right to life which includes duties and responsibilities -- to one another, to our families, and to the larger society. This pertains to every person in our society REGARDLESS of income. (http://www.usccb.org/.../rights-and-responsibilities.cfm )

progressoid

(49,991 posts)
5. Regarding getting help from churches.
Thu Jan 5, 2017, 04:51 PM
Jan 2017

The irony is that many churches get government funding!

Catholic Charities for example:

Catholic Charities USA, the largest charitable organization run by the church, receives about 65 percent of its annual budget from state and federal governments, making it an arm of the federal welfare state, said Brian Anderson, a researcher with the Manhattan Institute.

The federal government came to increasingly rely on the church to help it with Lyndon B. Johnson’s “War on Poverty,” and the charities “imbued with their new faith in the government’s potential to solve social problems, eagerly accepted government money,” Mr. Anderson wrote in an essay for the Manhattan Institute.

Catholic Charities received nearly a quarter of its funding from government by the end of the 1960s, more than half by the late 1970s and more than 60 percent by the mid-1980s, the level where it has remained ever since, Mr. Anderson said.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/sep/24/catholic-church-collects-16-billion-in-us-contract/

dembotoz

(16,808 posts)
6. it is called security
Thu Jan 5, 2017, 04:53 PM
Jan 2017

look up maslow hierarchy of needs

folks need stuff they can count on...if they can not count on it they can not move on to other stuff....no food or shelter is priority number 1...becomes all consuming. you can not count on the charity of others, you have no control...miss pantry day and you do not eat. Last year i took in a homeless person for about 9 months..i saw this up close and personal

a charity can always say no or run out of money or decide you are not from their church...you can not live like this.

as to the kid with special needs...are you serious? 1st wife before she died a speech path in a sheltered workshop, second wife spec ed teacher...best friend has an adult autistic daughter....requires professional help...might as well suggest the person set their broken leg as best they can.

private school? years back my wife wanted one of the kids to go to a lutheran school...open house....posters from 4th grade how evolution was a lie...no thank you..i do not want to pay for someone to lie to your kid...lie to them at home and on sunday.

abortion? as someone who was married to a woman who developed leukemia late in pregnancy...trust me you don't want me to get started on that.

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
7. Many food pantries are running low on food.
Thu Jan 5, 2017, 05:01 PM
Jan 2017

Why should someone have to afford private school? Public schools in places like NYC used to be outstanding.

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