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True Dough

(17,305 posts)
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 08:46 PM Jan 2017

Should everyone automatically be an organ donor unless they opt out?

That is what France has done. If you don't want to donate your organs, you must inform the government, otherwise you will possibly save others' lives after you perish.

Seems like a smart move, considering that there's a shortage of vital organs and so many people awaiting transplants. I wish the same legislation would be adopted here.


A major public health change swept France on New Year's as new regulations making citizens automatic organ donors unless they specifically choose to opt out through a national database took effect.

The new "opt-out" system is aimed at combating widespread organ shortages and long wait lists for transplants. Previously, French citizens who hadn't specified whether or not they wanted donate after dying could have their organs' fate left up to relatives. Now, the responsibility will fall on individuals, and next-of-kin will no longer have carte blanche veto power.

Those who object to donating their organs will have to sign up with a National Register of Refusal or make their intents known through written documents they leave with their families. They can also tell their relatives that they've chosen to opt out, and these family members would then have to provide signed documentations to that effect to doctors. About 150,000 people have already signed up for the refusal register, according to The Guardian.

Opt-out donation systems already exist in a number of places in Europe, including Spain, Austria, and Wales. While they can be controversial, there's at least some research suggesting that they improve donation rates in countries that adopt them.


http://fortune.com/2017/01/04/france-automatic-organ-donation/
75 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Should everyone automatically be an organ donor unless they opt out? (Original Post) True Dough Jan 2017 OP
Kidding Me? busterbrown Jan 2017 #1
YES JI7 Jan 2017 #2
Oh, I don't know. I think that could be challenged in federal court... CTyankee Jan 2017 #3
Religious freedom sarah FAILIN Jan 2017 #28
Ding ding ding!1 - we are about *CHOICE*! n/t UTUSN Jan 2017 #70
Thus the ability to opt out. ManiacJoe Jan 2017 #74
Yes ret5hd Jan 2017 #4
Yes. TexasMommaWithAHat Jan 2017 #5
No Dick Cheney might get it. What bothers me about that is you go into a doc03 Jan 2017 #6
There was a story awhile ago about a guy who NWCorona Jan 2017 #10
I have heard they harvest organs in China that way. You know people with doc03 Jan 2017 #15
Thank goodness that's not how it works here. Texasgal Jan 2017 #16
You just said Steve Jobs effectively bought his, right? doc03 Jan 2017 #17
No. That's not what I said at all. Texasgal Jan 2017 #18
And they have money. So if I need a heart and have the money I can certainly improve my chances doc03 Jan 2017 #25
You still are not getting it. Texasgal Jan 2017 #27
I don't get it? You have money you can increase your chances WTF is that? nt doc03 Jan 2017 #34
Once again.. Texasgal Jan 2017 #36
Doc03 is also failing to negate the benefits of an opt-out program True Dough Jan 2017 #38
I'm not trying to jump into a convo but when you are at a certain level you NWCorona Jan 2017 #49
Actually they are REP Jan 2017 #23
I'm not familiar with this story. Texasgal Jan 2017 #30
Here's a few REP Jan 2017 #45
Thank you Texasgal Jan 2017 #47
Please provide a link to documentation for this. Ms. Toad Jan 2017 #41
It's been a few years and I remembered some of the facts wrong but here you go NWCorona Jan 2017 #48
As I suspected, that is quite a different story. Ms. Toad Jan 2017 #63
That's not how any of that works. LeftyMom Jan 2017 #58
Or I could get your kidney, but hey that's cool if you want to bury it in the ground when you croak NightWatcher Jan 2017 #19
Transplant is a specialty. Transplant surgeons aren't making those decisions because they aren't LeftyMom Jan 2017 #57
I'd go for it, but I think it will be hell to pass here... TreasonousBastard Jan 2017 #7
If you were required to register your religion... scscholar Jan 2017 #31
You want to force people to register their religion? OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #60
This topic is about saving lives scscholar Jan 2017 #72
Than losing our freedoms, no. OrwellwasRight Jan 2017 #73
What about people who have AIDS? creeksneakers2 Jan 2017 #8
Organs are tested before being placed. Texasgal Jan 2017 #11
In addition to being tested, Ms. Toad Jan 2017 #42
YES!!! Texasgal Jan 2017 #9
Sorry to hear that, Texasgal True Dough Jan 2017 #13
I absolutely agree with that Ron Obvious Jan 2017 #12
oh yes n/t deek Jan 2017 #14
Yes La Lioness Priyanka Jan 2017 #20
Of course. Everyone is entitled to my black, tarry liver. AngryAmish Jan 2017 #21
Don't those countries have national health care? REP Jan 2017 #22
No. LisaL Jan 2017 #24
Not unless the organs are distributed fairly and equally. Crunchy Frog Jan 2017 #26
I agree that single payer would be much better Texasgal Jan 2017 #29
No nt avebury Jan 2017 #32
I would be fine with it, but then I've carried a donor card since about 1972 Hekate Jan 2017 #33
Fine with me. Getting it enacted might be an issue. Here you can designate Hoyt Jan 2017 #35
In thoery, yes. romanic Jan 2017 #37
No. People need to opt in. AgadorSparticus Jan 2017 #39
No. n/t X_Digger Jan 2017 #40
yes Skittles Jan 2017 #43
Of course! tavernier Jan 2017 #44
Opt-out programs almost always have higher rates of participation than opt-in. Igel Jan 2017 #46
Well stated! True Dough Jan 2017 #50
Yes. No brainer (he, he). nt Laffy Kat Jan 2017 #51
I see what you did there! True Dough Jan 2017 #53
Add me to the list of "paranoids" in this thread...I say NO! GReedDiamond Jan 2017 #52
Well then you would just opt out if you were against it. Laffy Kat Jan 2017 #54
I know that, I'm not yet brain dead... GReedDiamond Jan 2017 #56
Nope. 2naSalit Jan 2017 #55
22 Americans a day die waiting for an organ. LeftyMom Jan 2017 #59
Be well, LeftyMom! True Dough Jan 2017 #61
I'm designated as an organ donor....I say no hibbing Jan 2017 #62
Frankly, profit driven America JNelson6563 Jan 2017 #64
No Calculating Jan 2017 #65
Yes. Snackshack Jan 2017 #66
No. nt Raine Jan 2017 #67
Yes, but with heavy emphasis on the "unless". Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2017 #68
Absolutely! True Dough Jan 2017 #71
I'm an organ donor BUT no. I think the opt in should be effortless, but it should be an opt-in. Squinch Jan 2017 #69
No n/t SickOfTheOnePct Jan 2017 #75

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
3. Oh, I don't know. I think that could be challenged in federal court...
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 08:51 PM
Jan 2017

on what ground? Maybe Roe v. Wade, testing the limit to one's control over their own bodies, even if they were dead....think about it...

sarah FAILIN

(2,857 posts)
28. Religious freedom
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 09:50 PM
Jan 2017

I know some Jehovahs Witnesses that would rather die than take blood. I think it's more of an individual thing with organs. Gypsies are against organ donation because of their beliefs

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
5. Yes.
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 08:56 PM
Jan 2017

With computer-aided driving, we're going to have fewer organ donors in the future, which is a good thing for us drivers, but a bad thing for people in need of an organ.

doc03

(35,340 posts)
6. No Dick Cheney might get it. What bothers me about that is you go into a
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 08:59 PM
Jan 2017

hospital and Doctor Smith has a friend at the Country Club or the local billionaire needs a heart, are they going to do everything to save you?

NWCorona

(8,541 posts)
10. There was a story awhile ago about a guy who
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 09:11 PM
Jan 2017

Was unconscious and on a respirator due to a major accident or something. Supposedly he could hear the doctors in the room dividing his organs up. When his wife got there he heard the them trying to convince her to pull the plug but she said no. He later ended up fully recovering.

I share your fear.

doc03

(35,340 posts)
15. I have heard they harvest organs in China that way. You know people with
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 09:18 PM
Jan 2017

money would certainly do it if they had the opportunity.

Texasgal

(17,045 posts)
16. Thank goodness that's not how it works here.
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 09:21 PM
Jan 2017

The UNOS program is run with a very tight fist.

Money dosen't work in these cases unless you can afford to be listed at many transplant centers across the country like Steve Jobs did. He got his liver this way. Organs are not for sale here in America.

Texasgal

(17,045 posts)
18. No. That's not what I said at all.
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 09:33 PM
Jan 2017

He was able to be multi listed in several areas of the country. He still had to go through the same process like everyone else.

he just had the ability to be listed at several centers, some states transplant faster than others. There are alot of transplant patients that do this.

doc03

(35,340 posts)
25. And they have money. So if I need a heart and have the money I can certainly improve my chances
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 09:42 PM
Jan 2017

of getting one sooner, right? That sounds like buying your way to the front of the line to me. That's why rich Canadians come to the USA for elective surgery they don't have to wait behind the peasants for their turn.

Texasgal

(17,045 posts)
27. You still are not getting it.
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 09:45 PM
Jan 2017

You cannot BUY an organ.

yes, if you have money you can increase your chances but there is no guarantees. You still have to follow the same protocol as everyone else.

Organs are not for sale in America. Period.

Texasgal

(17,045 posts)
36. Once again..
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 10:17 PM
Jan 2017

You cannot BUY an organ.

What is so hard for you to understand?

You STILL must go through the rigorous program. You must be tested. You must be matched. You must have a certain MELD score. You must have a matching blood type. You must not have other affecting factors. You increase your CHANCES if you are able to be multi-listed. Even with the ability to be multi-listed it does NOT guarantee an organ. Understand?

Money helps, yes... but you cannot BUY an organ. Period.

True Dough

(17,305 posts)
38. Doc03 is also failing to negate the benefits of an opt-out program
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 10:31 PM
Jan 2017

While he/she is insisting there may be some favoritism based on wealth, he/she also insinuated such things have been known to happen already.

The opt-out program may not be impervious to isolated incidents of corruption (all systems have nefarious individuals seeking to line their pockets), it would still do much more widespread good for the broader population.

NWCorona

(8,541 posts)
49. I'm not trying to jump into a convo but when you are at a certain level you
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 12:54 AM
Jan 2017

You book a flight to India or the like. The American organ supply is super limited.

REP

(21,691 posts)
23. Actually they are
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 09:41 PM
Jan 2017

Every now and then, someone gets caught, as UCLA did, selling organs to rich Saudis (not Americans - we still get screwed).

Texasgal

(17,045 posts)
30. I'm not familiar with this story.
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 09:54 PM
Jan 2017

If it's true that's awful! I hope that something happened with this! Do you have a link you could share?

Ofcourse, the transplant system is not perfect... if it was my husband would be alive right now. The real pressing issue is that we need more donors.

Texasgal

(17,045 posts)
47. Thank you
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 12:17 AM
Jan 2017

It appears these stories are from 2003 and 2004. UNOS has changed since then.

I hope this never happens ever again! Awful.

Having more donors is really the key here. Wish more people would educate themselves on organ donation. I had no idea how it worked until I became a caregiver myself. It's amazing how much disinformation is out there.

Ms. Toad

(34,074 posts)
41. Please provide a link to documentation for this.
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 10:47 PM
Jan 2017

Way too much fake news going on - and organ donation stories like this are prevalent fake stories promulgatee by the Terri Schaivo/right to life crew.

Ms. Toad

(34,074 posts)
63. As I suspected, that is quite a different story.
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 02:50 AM
Jan 2017

There was talk of saying their goodbyes - appropriate, given that he had suffered a massive stroke, was paralyzed, and nonresponsive with massive brain swelling.

But that's quite a bit different from doctors wanting to pull the plug and relatives stopping it.

The article is clear that no steps, beyond the possibility of organ donation, were taken to remove medical care.

The doctors were stupid to talk in his presence, as if he could not hear them.

That said, someone in his condition often doesn't survive, and it looked as if it was likely he would not. Discussing the possibiliity of organ donation among themselves - and it is not even inapproprate to broach the subject with his relatives to help them be prepared for what is always a difficult decision that must be made very quickly.

NightWatcher

(39,343 posts)
19. Or I could get your kidney, but hey that's cool if you want to bury it in the ground when you croak
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 09:34 PM
Jan 2017

I'd have to get that Gofundme account up and running first too, so forget it I guess.

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
57. Transplant is a specialty. Transplant surgeons aren't making those decisions because they aren't
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 02:08 AM
Jan 2017

caring for patients who aren't transplant recipients.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
7. I'd go for it, but I think it will be hell to pass here...
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 09:02 PM
Jan 2017

Religious objections would be easily dealt with through the religions that will have forms and counseling available. It's the rest of the population that just doesn't feel right about organ donation that will make a fuss, and probably fall in line with religious zealots of the "I don't want it so nobody should have it" type.

Imagine clueless parents of a teenager killed in a car wreck, and they see the coolers taken out of the OR. If that's the first they heard of the law, there could be hell to pay.

OrwellwasRight

(5,170 posts)
60. You want to force people to register their religion?
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 02:19 AM
Jan 2017

I've heard few statements on DU less consistent with American principles.

OrwellwasRight

(5,170 posts)
73. Than losing our freedoms, no.
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 05:31 PM
Jan 2017

A lot of horrid things can happen under the rubric of "saving lives".

That's what the Iraq war was supposed to be about. That's what the Japanese internment camps were about. That's what "stop and frisk" is supposedly about.

No thank you to forcible religious registration. And no thank you to being forced to give your organs away if you don't have a religious excuse to say no that you approve of.



Texasgal

(17,045 posts)
11. Organs are tested before being placed.
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 09:12 PM
Jan 2017

Plus, did you know that ONE organ donor can save up 8 lives? Aids patients still have plenty of things that can still be used. Corneas are one of the biggest!

Ms. Toad

(34,074 posts)
42. In addition to being tested,
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 10:53 PM
Jan 2017

There are a number of illnesses now where transplantees need organs, even if the person had an illness such as AIDS or hepatitis.

They won't transplant them into a person the organ could make sicker, but if a person with hepatitis needs a new liver - and someone with the same flavor of hepatitis with a better liver dies in a car accident, that liver can prolong the life of a person with hepatitis who might not otherwise get a new liver.

(BTW - they not only test, they review the medical record and discuss health matters that might not be apparent with relatives in a manner that permits disclosure of information that might not be disclosed because of shame.)

No system will ever be perfect, but it's a pretty good system.

Texasgal

(17,045 posts)
9. YES!!!
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 09:10 PM
Jan 2017

My husband just passed away waiting for a liver and kidney. He was so sick before he made it to #1 on list. His immune system was so weak he caught an infection and died.

My honey went through hell the last two years, so sick he stayed in bed for a full year. If we had more organs this wouldn't happen. No one should ever have to go through what he did, especially when you have a legitimate chance of life.

True Dough

(17,305 posts)
13. Sorry to hear that, Texasgal
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 09:15 PM
Jan 2017

My condolences. Your situation has been shared by far too many people. Hopefully an "opt-out" organ donation program can make a real dent in those numbers in the future!

 

Ron Obvious

(6,261 posts)
12. I absolutely agree with that
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 09:14 PM
Jan 2017

Even though I've always been fully in favour of organ donations, I had nevertheless never got around to it (too squeamish, probably) until I renewed my license and was asked straight out if I wanted to be. I couldn't back out then, nor did I want to really, but I might never have done it on my own initiative.

People who feel strongly about not being a donor will have the option to opt out, but the burden of taking the initiative will be on them. This will save thousands and thousands of lives. Of course we should do this!

 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
21. Of course. Everyone is entitled to my black, tarry liver.
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 09:37 PM
Jan 2017

In fact when my liver is lifted out of my abdomen, it should fall apart into 7 prices, making transplants easy.

REP

(21,691 posts)
22. Don't those countries have national health care?
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 09:38 PM
Jan 2017

If I had any organs that would be useful, I'd be somewhat hesitant - especially if I were poorer and less insured (and maybe O- instead of B -) in this country, because my uninsured/underinsured life wouldn't pay as much as a subsidized organ transplant.

As it is, I'm in kidney failure myself with the blood group with the longest wait time and I do not think people should be compelled to be donors.

Crunchy Frog

(26,587 posts)
26. Not unless the organs are distributed fairly and equally.
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 09:43 PM
Jan 2017

For that to happen, there would have to be genuine universal health care. Otherwise it's just going to be the rich harvesting the poor.

Texasgal

(17,045 posts)
29. I agree that single payer would be much better
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 09:50 PM
Jan 2017

and the transplant system is not perfect... but it's pretty evenly fair. We just need more donors. That's the bigger issue in my opinion.

Hekate

(90,705 posts)
33. I would be fine with it, but then I've carried a donor card since about 1972
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 10:03 PM
Jan 2017

Last edited Fri Jan 6, 2017, 11:35 PM - Edit history (1)

However, this is a funny country. Many would get their panties in a wad over it.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
35. Fine with me. Getting it enacted might be an issue. Here you can designate
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 10:08 PM
Jan 2017

whether you want to be a donor on your driver license, but that is not as good.

tavernier

(12,389 posts)
44. Of course!
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 11:01 PM
Jan 2017

As long as it's easy enough to opt out for those who don't wish it.

I always think of Liam Neeson who says he thinks his wife would be pleased to know that her organs are keeping three people alive.

Igel

(35,317 posts)
46. Opt-out programs almost always have higher rates of participation than opt-in.
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 11:41 PM
Jan 2017

It says that first and foremost others decide for you, but you can veto it.

Retirement savings plans that are opt-out have people save a lot more money. Often they don't know about it until they're told, then they object. But not enough to go through the grief of opting out; and in some cases they can only change their benefits plan once a year.

I knew people who wanted opt-out student fees for voluntary things. Why? Because they knew that by the time most students realized they were paying for something they wouldn't benefit from--subsidizing others--it would be too late. They justified wanting opt-out fees in all sorts of ways--students would use whatever the program or service was if they paid, they really wanted to opt in but were too lazy or didn't know they could, it was for the common good. Mostly it was pushed by people who had an agenda, often an agenda that helped the program that they used or participated in--so they benefited from it psychologically or in practical terms.

Opt-out plays on lethargy and procrastination. It makes the decision for them ("you will do this&quot unless they actually take positive steps to stop it. I think of this as fleecing the sheep. Even if a lot of countries do it, it rather treats people as governmental possessions. Very un-English-common-law in thought. But very paternalistic.

Opt-in programs suffer from lethargy and procrastination. But it doesn't make a decision for them ("you can do this&quot and requires they actually take positive steps to participate. Sort of you do things with the consent of the participants, as opposed to relying on their inertia or lack of knowledge.

Relying on utilitarianism is a problem for organ donation. There's a country without a waiting list for kidneys. Why? Not because of negative check-off on some form, but because you can actually sell a kidney. It benefits the living donor and the recipient. It's Iran. https://www.statnews.com/2016/08/25/organ-donation-kidneys-iran/

True Dough

(17,305 posts)
50. Well stated!
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 01:46 AM
Jan 2017

People often mean well, but they can get distracted and then forget. Signing up for organ donation suffers because of it.

GReedDiamond

(5,313 posts)
52. Add me to the list of "paranoids" in this thread...I say NO!
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 01:52 AM
Jan 2017

If I'm "existing" in a vegetative state, maybe that's my personal choice.

These days, I feel like I'm already half-way there, as it is.

Laffy Kat

(16,382 posts)
54. Well then you would just opt out if you were against it.
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 01:54 AM
Jan 2017

They would ask you during your license reg. or something.

GReedDiamond

(5,313 posts)
56. I know that, I'm not yet brain dead...
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 02:02 AM
Jan 2017

...just kidding.

I used to be a certified organ donor on my CA driver license, also, separately, a bigly blood platelets donor to the City of Hope.

But now I'm so fuckin old, who would want my damaged psychedelic-punk-rock riddled organs?

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
59. 22 Americans a day die waiting for an organ.
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 02:16 AM
Jan 2017

My father's about halfway through his two year wait for a liver.

We tried to jump the line with live donation, even though it's very risky surgery for the donor and the results for the recipient are slightly worse (because you get half a liver from a live donor versus a whole one from a deceased donor and it plumbs in a little awkwardly) but it turns out I have a blood clotting disorder and I can't.

There's a pretty decent chance he's going to be one of those people who die waiting.

An opt-in system would save him, and a lot of other people.

hibbing

(10,098 posts)
62. I'm designated as an organ donor....I say no
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 02:35 AM
Jan 2017

I would like to thank you for posting this and I think the responses have been thoughtful and interesting to read, this is a great thread.


Peace

JNelson6563

(28,151 posts)
64. Frankly, profit driven America
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 02:54 AM
Jan 2017

worries me a little on this regard. I mean really, how much is someone's organ worth to a wealthy person in dire need? I believe some could be persuaded to help a few souls out of the world if it meant a big reward for them. This may sound outrageous but how many doctors have gotten pretty fat from pharma kick backs and the like?

Maybe if so many weren't going into medicine to get rich in the US I would see it differently. But I see this trend only worsening. It's all about the money anymore. Fuck that.

Calculating

(2,955 posts)
65. No
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 02:57 AM
Jan 2017

I say no because organ donation mostly benefits the rich as things are. The poor cannot afford the >$100,000 operations and the drugs to prevent rejection. I also worry about doctors potentially trying less hard to save people who are donors (see above story about the guy overhearing them talking about harvesting his organs)

Snackshack

(2,541 posts)
66. Yes.
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 03:00 AM
Jan 2017

If a person wants to opt out for personal/religious reasons that is fine.

But being an organ donor should be the default selection.

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
68. Yes, but with heavy emphasis on the "unless".
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 08:18 AM
Jan 2017

No-one should ever have their organs used for donations against their expressed wishes.

I support an opt-out system, but I think it's worth stressing that opt-out really does mean opt-out, and is not just a euphemism for universal donation.

True Dough

(17,305 posts)
71. Absolutely!
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 02:23 PM
Jan 2017

A person's choice to opt out must be respected. I think the motivation for those who want to opt out, particularly on religious grounds, would be stronger than those of people who muse about opting-in and just never get around to it, therefore reversing the current set up would do more good.

Squinch

(50,950 posts)
69. I'm an organ donor BUT no. I think the opt in should be effortless, but it should be an opt-in.
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 10:44 AM
Jan 2017

My body, my choice in all things.

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