ROF Responds to the Corporate Medias Anti-Vaxxer Attack on RFK, Jr.

[womanofthehills]

The pharmaceutical industry organized immediately and began calling Bobby Kennedy an anti-vaxxer. They knew when they said it that it was a lie, but they counted on the fact that people have become unwilling to honestly assess what is happening in political settings that involve any level of controversy. The truth is Bobby is not an anti-VAXER as he has said so many times on his own website; he is pro-vaccine, but he has a belief that the delivery system for vaccines may be causing harm to your children. So for years, with incredible pushback from both the CDC and the drug industry, Bobby has taken it upon himself to better understand how a vaccine can be delivered in a way that does not include Thimerosal Mercury.

God forbid he should ask questions about whether or not high levels of mercury are causing any type of injury to our children. The truth is the issue has never been about whether or not to vaccinate children – that is a good, solid idea. It prevents illness and disease. But that doesn’t mean that the delivery system for that vaccine cannot be improved, and that is what Bobby has dedicated himself to the last five years while he experienced great personal sacrifice.

It’s almost as if progressives, who should be at least supportive of the idea of research, have forgotten what Kennedy has tried to accomplish in his career as a public servant. Let me remind you: in 1984 Kennedy helped create one of the most important environmental organizations, not just America, but in the world, called the River keepers: he set out to Sue polluters that were destroying our waterways and polluting our drinking water. Believe it or not, he was criticized for that.

In 2001, Kennedy was thrown in prison for trying to stop the US Navy from bombarding the island of Puerto Rico with radioactive shells. He went there to protest and spent 30 days in jail. Corporate media attacked him for that in favor of the US government’s position even though they were well aware the cancer clusters on that island were tragically high.



https://trofire.com/2017/01/11/rof-responds-corporate-medias-anti-vaxxer-attack-rfk-jr/

[Generator]

1. Would you work with Hitler or Mussolini on your pet project?

That's the point. Not mercury in vaccines. Which doesn't exist anymore and which if vaccines are stopped and not paid for when they kill Obamacare will kill children.

[womanofthehills]

2. Wrong - mercury in vaccines does still exist - more than half of flu vaccines have mercury

and they are giving these flu vaccines with mercury to babies and children. People need to educate themselves and ask for the flu vaccine without mercury. There are about 12 different flu vaccines available in the US - made by different pharma companies in different countries with different ingredients. If you look at the US National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program vaccine injury awards, the majority of the vaccine injuries in children are not from regular childhood disease prevention vaccines but from flu vaccines given to babies.

[Generator]

3. Fine but you think working with Trump is okay-oh flu vaccines are your most important issue???

Like this one damn thing is the most important thing in the world. It's lunacy. Immoral. Jill Stein also is a reason Trump will be president and she loves Putin. You probably think vaccines cause autism too-false. Why post this shit? WE are fighting actual Nazi's ms woman of the hills. It's time to wake the fuck up.

[womanofthehills]

5. It was not decided Bobby is working with Trump

Papantonio said Bobby just met with Trump to possibly work together. If you were a parent of a baby of the following chart, you might think it is important.

Also, Jill Stein is not anti-vax either. Like Bobby, she wants to improve the vaccines.

And, although it is not common, the US governments Vaccine Injury Compensation Program has awarded settlements for autism - if the autism is accompanied by meningitis.

[arithia]

7. Where are you getting this crud from

and do you know the difference between ethylmercury and methylmercury? Cause the compound you are so darn scared of doesn't break down into a toxic compound in the body. It breaks down into something we pee out. As Snopes put it, "Saying ethylmercury is dangerous because is contains mercury is like saying that your table salt is at risk of spontaneous combustion because it contains sodium."

Flu vaccines aren't recommended for babies, either.

[womanofthehills]

10. Wrong - go on the CDC website and flu vaccines are recommended for babies at 6 months

Mercury is not the only ingredient according to the CDC. I don't know why so many babies are being given flu shots before 6 months.

Common substances found in vaccines include: from - https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm

Aluminum gels or salts of aluminum which are added as adjuvants to help the vaccine stimulate a better response. Adjuvants help promote an earlier, more potent response, and more persistent immune response to the vaccine.

Antibiotics which are added to some vaccines to prevent the growth of germs (bacteria) during production and storage of the vaccine. No vaccine produced in the United States contains penicillin.

Egg protein is found in influenza and yellow fever vaccines, which are prepared using chicken eggs. Ordinarily, persons who are able to eat eggs or egg products safely can receive these vaccines.

Formaldehyde is used to inactivate bacterial products for toxoid vaccines, (these are vaccines that use an inactive bacterial toxin to produce immunity.) It is also used to kill unwanted viruses and bacteria that might contaminate the vaccine during production. Most formaldehyde is removed from the vaccine before it is packaged.

Monosodium glutamate (MSG) and 2-phenoxy-ethanol which are used as stabilizers in a few vaccines to help the vaccine remain unchanged when the vaccine is exposed to heat, light, acidity, or humidity.

Thimerosal is a mercury-containing preservative that is added to vials of vaccine that contain more than one dose to prevent contamination and growth of potentially harmful bacteria.

For children with a prior history of allergic reactions to any of these substances in vaccines, parents should consult their child’s healthcare provider before vaccination.

To find out what chemical additives are in specific vaccines, ask your healthcare provider or pharmacist for a copy of the vaccine package insert, which lists all ingredients in the vaccine and discusses any known adverse reactions.
To ensure the safety of vaccines, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), the National Institutes of Health (NIH), and other Federal agencies routinely monitor and conduct research to examine any new evidence that would suggest possible problems with the safety of vaccines. To keep abreast of the latest information, continue to reference these materials.
To report a health problem that followed vaccination you or your provider should call the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) at 1-800-822-7967.

[arithia]

14. *facepalm*

The CDC also states they have separate vaccinations for children of that age. They have a nice little chart that says no Thimerosal in the meds for children of that age.

Again, single dose flu shots do not contain it. The shot recommended for that age is single dose.


As for your blockquote;

* Aluminum salts have been used safely for over 6 decades in vaccines. Aluminum has been used in medicine since ancient Greece. Its in our fraking deoderants. Its in our ulcer medications. It is found naturally in the food we eat, the soil we walk upon and the rain that nourishes our crops. It's in the very air we BREATHE. It is even naturally found in the human body. This isn't something scary- humans bodies contain lots of scary sounding heavy metals.

*Eggs. Seriously. Eggs? You are raising a stink about eggs now? Short of food allergies, why is this even a concern you are linking?

*MSG is in our food. I don't know what to tell ya. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate

Monosodium glutamate (MSG, also known as sodium glutamate) is the sodium salt of glutamic acid, one of the most abundant naturally occurring non-essential amino acids.[Manuf. 1] Monosodium glutamate is found naturally in tomatoes, cheese and other foods.[1]

Is it the cheese that scares you or the tomatoes? I guess I shouldn't be surprised after eggs.

*Thimerosal hasn't been used in vaccinations since 1999 short of a few multi-injection flu shots. It isn't in single dose flu shots. Again, this form of mercury breaks down into something harmless in the body and passes through like aluminum. (Chemistry is hard, I get it.)


This psuedoscience you are peddling gets people with suppressed immune systems killed.

[womanofthehills]

21. Have I said anything about not getting vaccines - No - we are talking about improving vaccines

You wrote: "*Thimerosal hasn't been used in vaccinations since 1999 short of a few multi-injection flu shots. "

WRONG- of the 168 million flu shots avilable this season, CDC says 120 million will be mercury free and 48 million will have mercury .



Now there are egg free vaccines for people over 18, but not for kids. Maybe soon there will be egg free vaccines for kids with egg allergies. I'm just talking about using your mind when picking out a vaccine for yourself or your kids.

List of different flu shots available this year. Only multi dose has mercury. There is a new cell based flu shot from Protein Sciences on the CDC list that does not have msg, formaldehyde, aluminum, latex, antiobiotics etc. but it is only for people over 18 yrs old.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pdf/protect/vaccine/rr6505-table-1.pdf

[arithia]

24. lol.. uh..

I stated, repeatedly, that no single shot flu shots contain Thimerosal. This is indicated on the chart you linked. My statement about multi-vaccination flu shots is indeed correct... and reflected by the chart. "Few" refers to the ratio of types that have it vs the ones that don't, not number of total injections.

If a parent/patient knows about an egg or latex allergy, they should discuss that with their doctor. Hopefully, the doctor knows already. This is why it is important to fill out the "allergy" section of the patient information form. Medical science may develop an egg-free vaccine, but they don't really need to. It's been known to be safe to use on egg allergy people since 2013.

http://acaai.org/news/egg-allergic-children-now-have-no-barriers-flu-shot

None of the ingredients you mentioned concern over, including Thimerosal, is actually a cause for concern. Many are naturally occurring in the body, including formaldehyde. Thimerosal itself breaks down in the body into ethylmercury, which is harmless.

If you want to lecture me about using my mind, perhaps you should use yours and update your information more than once every few years. Or decades. Science tends to advance with the march of time.

You are peddling psuedo-science that kills people.

[womanofthehills]

30. If you do a search "vaccine injury lawyers for Guillian Barre Syndrome"

some of the law firms will post lists of all the cases and the amounts of money they have received for their clients from the Dept of Health and Human Services Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. Most of the injuries listed are GBS from flu shots esp in seniors. Seems like childhood vaccines are some of the safest vaccines in this country - very few injuries because they have been improved over the years. Flu shots are made new each year so they don't have years to improve them.

In every other country in the world, a vaccine injured person can sue the pharma company, but not in the US. Here you have to apply through to Dept of Health for a settlement from the government. 75 cents is tacked on to each vaccine to support this program which now has over $3.6 billion dollars available. Since the program started, $3.5 billion has been paid out. Lawyers are paid separately by the government, so the injured get the entire amt of their settlement and only pay a small fee.

So some on here, think because only a small amt of people become injured, there should be no improvement in making the vaccines.
New types of flu vaccines come out every year and making safer vaccines should be a priority.

[arithia]

35. kangaroo court findings are not scientific, medical proof of anything

Guilian Barre Syndrome has no known cause other than viral or bacterial infection and that can happen without vaccines. It DOES happen without vaccines- cases have been confirmed as being caused by Zika and by certain gut bacteria.

It isn't the shot that's the problem. Viruses rewrite our DNA. Infection causes epigenetic change. If a half dead (or totally dead as is often the case) flu virus is the cause of onset, there is absolutely NO guarantee whatsoever that person wouldn't have gotten the flu on their own during the stage when the virus is most active and contracted GB.

[womanofthehills]

50. It's not kangaroo court - it's the US Court of Federal Claims

Just saying what the Federal Courts are deciding.

[arithia]

56. Again-

It means jack shit when the court cannot post public records of what led to their findings due to medical privacy laws.

This is a country where most people don't understand the workings of birth control and we have laws on the books that require doctors to falsely tell women that abortions cause cancer. Politics and lack of scientific understanding have crept into our court systems. Actual scientific knowledge has been replaced "common" knowledge, which always boils down to people pleading their ignorance is equivalent to scientific fact. Even doctors themselves are not immune to bias and misinformation.

Courts don't always make the best possible decisions based on objective, established, medical consensus.

Pointing to them and saying "see? see? it's real!" is a logical fallacy called appeal to authority. You are shifting the burden of proof rather than offering proof. You present no evidence. You cannot argue the science. You avoided replying to posts that show your falsehoods. You have yet to respond to me about any specific study and have even tried to use CDC links that verify what I'm saying as "proof" that I'm wrong.

You have given absolutely NO reason whatsoever to take you seriously, which is good because anti-vax bullshit **KILLS** people.

[womanofthehills]

27. Actually, my information is from the CDC

[obamanut2012]

48. 100% wrong -- stop your dangerous anti health agprop

Mercola is calling you.

[womanofthehills]

4. Also, to answer your other question - yes if it prevented babies from getting ill

Every 3 months vaccine injury settlements are paid by the US Government for vaccine injury and it's not a pretty picture. This is just a few pages from from 3 month period. If you check these out, most are from the flu vaccine. There are other charts for adults.

[gratuitous]

13. This table would be a lot more meaningful if anyone knew where it came from

Grainy scans of dubious provenance are not proof of anything.

[SidDithers]

16. It's from Health Impact News...

https://healthimpactnews.com/2015/march-2015-settlements-in-vaccine-court-117-vaccine-injuries-and-deaths/

You can even still see a wee bit of the website banner, at the top of a few of the images.

They're as anti-vax as they come. Here's the conclusion from the link above:

Conclusion: Do Not Trust what the Government Says About Vaccines

The U.S. government has massive conflicts of interest where it concerns policies related to the vaccine industry. Before you make a potential life-changing decision for you or your children by agreeing to be vaccinated, do your own research. The government cannot be trusted on vaccine matters, and the mainstream media and many doctors are also not doing their own research related to the vaccine industry. Be informed and educated regarding vaccines, before you become a statistic among the vaccine injured and dead.

Sid

[pnwmom]

22. Not true. They recommend that pregnant women and children get the flu vaccine

and they contain mercury.

[arithia]

6. Your concerns are a bit out of date medically.

Progressives, who are indeed supportive of the idea of research, also tend to listen to objective scientific consensus.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/patient-ed/conversations/downloads/vacsafe-thimerosal-color-office.pdf

• In 1999, as a precautionary measure, the U.S.
Public Health Service recommended removing
thimerosal as a preservative from vaccines to
reduce mercury exposure among infants as much
as possible.
•
Today, except for some flu vaccines in multi-dose
vials, no recommended childhood vaccines contain
thimerosal as a preservative.
•
In all other recommended childhood vaccines, no
thimerosal is present, or the amount of thimerosal
is close to zero.

I should also note: https://www.verywell.com/anti-vaccine-myths-and-misinformation-2633730

"In addition to the fact that thimerosal was removed from almost all vaccines beginning in 1999, many vaccines never contained thimerosal, including:

MMR
Varivax (chicken pox vaccine)
hepatitis A vaccine
Flumist
rotavirus vaccines (RotaTeq and Rotarix)
TdaP
IPV (polio vaccine)
Menactra and Menveo
HPV vaccines (Gardasil and Cervarix)
Prevnar (both Prevnar 7 and Prevnar 13)

So even at the height of the mercury craze, say in 1998, kids routinely only received three vaccines with thimerosal - hepatitis B, DTaP, and Hib. None of the other vaccines that were a part of the 1998 recommended childhood immunization schedule ever contained thimerosal.

And even then, thimerosal free versions of DTaP and Hib were available, so not all kids got vaccines with thimerosal or all three vaccines with thimerosal. Some may have gotten just one or two."

Asking questions about an ingredient that isn't used any more (outside a handful of flu-shots, single dose flu shots contain NO mercury of any kind) is a bit like voting to defund ACORN in 2016. If he spent the last 5 years asking about something that isn't done any more, I question his use of time and energy.

[pnwmom]

23. Your information is incomplete. They recommend that pregnant women

get the flu vaccine, and small children. The flu vaccine when dispensed in multi-use vials does contain mercury.

Flu vaccines in multi-dose vials contain thimerosal to safeguard against contamination of the vial. Most single-dose vials and pre-filled syringes of flu shot and the nasal spray flu vaccine do not contain a preservative because they are intended to be only used once.

Thimerosal in Flu Vaccine | Seasonal Influenza (Flu) | CDC

www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/thimerosal.htm

[arithia]

29. *sigh*

I stated that multi-use vials contain the substance in question. I also stated in the thread ethylmercury is harmless and quickly excreted by the body.

WHO on http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/committee/topics/thiomersal/statement_jul2006/en/

Single shot flu vaccines do not contain the form of mercury in question.

The CDC has not found evidence that the vaccines during pregnancy cause spectrum disorders even though it passes the placental barrier. Exposure did not change the rates of symptoms between those with and without exposure to the drug.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/study-risk-autism.html

The preponderance of evidence shows that Autism is genetic (and that vaccines are safe). They just don't know what causes it to activate in some people vs others. This is true of many mental disorders- bipolar, adhd and schizophrenia share multiple genetic mutations, for example. Which one you get depends on how the switch is flipped. Stress alone can trigger epigenetic changes that triggers onset of those three disorders.

Questioning what we put in our bodies is great. Peddling junk science that kills people is not.

[womanofthehills]

33. Everyone does not excrete substances from the body at the same rate

and something can be harmless for one person and dangerous for another - peanuts for example.

[arithia]

39. False equivalency

Allergies are different from what compounds we can and cannot chemically metabolize. I realize they might seem superficially similar, but they are different. Allergies occur when the body mistakes food proteins as a threat and the immune system attacks it. Food allergies are the result of the body producing too much immunoglobulin E. Food intolerances are yet another beast, but you can presumably go read.

https://www.foodallergy.org/about-food-allergies
http://www.foodallergy.org/related-conditions#intolerances

Our ability to metabolize chemical compounds can indeed vary from person to person, but it doesn't change the fact that we are talking about a form of mercury that *IS* metabolized. There are allergies to the chemical, but the worst allergic reactions found involved itching and swelling at the injection site.

There is no current proof that ethylmercury has an affect on the developing brain once it's crossed the blood-brain barrier, where it can hang around for a little while longer. We do know humans universally pee it out of the body in a few days with no harm to the kidneys, which are very susceptible to mercury poisoning.

http://www.who.int/immunization/sage/meetings/2012/april/WHO_meeting_slides_Mitkus_040312.pdf

"doses much higher than human exposure levels and/or or repeated exposures, were necessary to induce toxicity in animals"

[pnwmom]

34. Ethylmercury was removed from the other vaccines in 2001. If it had been proven harmless,

they wouldn't have had to do so.

Is thimerosal still used in vaccines for children?

No. Thimerosal hasn’t been used in vaccines for children since 2001.

However, thimerosal is still used in some flu vaccines. Yearly flu vaccines are recommended for all children. If you are worried about thimerosal, you can ask for a flu vaccine without it.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/faqs.html

[arithia]

37. We routinely update medications to remove additives

and improve delivery systems. Concern over Thimerosal lead to it's phase out in 1999.

Ethylmercury is the compound that Thimerosal breaks down into in the body. It's the metabolized form of the compound. There was concern that it would be as toxic and METHYLmercury, which 1) stays in the body for long periods of time 2) builds up in the body over time. Ethylmercury was studdied and found to metabolize quickly before excretion. It's doses are not cumulative. It does not pose the danger that methyl does.

Common scientific consensus is that the removal of the compound was unnecessary as Thimerosal is safe for use. Your link says as much.

[pnwmom]

40. Right, it doesn't pose the SAME danger as methyl mercury. That doesn't mean it belongs in

vaccines given to pregnant women and small children.

[arithia]

42. Same danger? It doesn't POSE a danger.

There is no conclusive evidence that ethylmercury poses a danger in humans unless you give them doses waaaaaaaay above what vaccines expose us to. This includes in utero. I linked to a WHO study elsewhere in the thread. I'm too tired after hours of this bullpucky to dig it up again, but it basically said ya had to intentionally overdose people or give it to specially mutated, immunodeficient, genetically engineered labrats to see any kind of effect on a living organism.

**If there is a human like those rats, they are fucked to begin with- those are the poor bastards who have to be protected by Herd Immunity.**

Just because chemicals sound alike name wise doesn't mean they behave the same in the body.

I should mention that water can kill you if you drink enough of it fast enough.

[pnwmom]

43. I'm not comfortable with the in vitro studies; you are.

Abstract
Ethylmercury (etHg) is derived from the metabolism of thimerosal (o-carboxyphenyl-thio-ethyl-sodium salt), which is the most widely used form of organic mercury. Because of its application as a vaccine preservative, almost every human and animal (domestic and farmed) that has been immunized with thimerosal-containing vaccines has been exposed to etHg. Although methylmercury (meHg) is considered a hazardous substance that is to be avoided even at small levels when consumed in foods such as seafood and rice (in Asia), the World Health Organization considers small doses of thimerosal safe regardless of multiple/repetitive exposures to vaccines that are predominantly taken during pregnancy or infancy. We have reviewed in vitro and in vivo studies that compare the toxicological parameters among etHg and other forms of mercury (predominantly meHg) to assess their relative toxicities and potential to cause cumulative insults. In vitro studies comparing etHg with meHg demonstrate equivalent measured outcomes for cardiovascular, neural and immune cells. However, under in vivo conditions, evidence indicates a distinct toxicokinetic profile between meHg and etHg, favoring a shorter blood half-life, attendant compartment distribution and the elimination of etHg compared with meHg. EtHg's toxicity profile is different from that of meHg, leading to different exposure and toxicity risks. Therefore, in real-life scenarios, a simultaneous exposure to both etHg and meHg might result in enhanced neurotoxic effects in developing mammals. However, our knowledge on this subject is still incomplete, and studies are required to address the predictability of the additive or synergic toxicological effects of etHg and meHg (or other neurotoxicants).
Copyright © 2013 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23401210

I'm not worried about the exposure to adults; just to pregnant women and young children. It's not worth any risk when the solution is simple: single use vials.

[arithia]

44. One study is not scientific proof

particularly when you post the abstract and not the research itself and the abstract doesnt say what the affects are. I'm not paying for the damn article to dissect it. If you want to, be my guest.

Other studies show mercury (Hg, which is not the same as ethylmercury) has links to immune disorders, but only in people with certain genetics.

These fuckers are primed for it. You can argue that it might flip the switch to the on position, but the condition was always there and ready to activate. Other things can do the job. Again I'll reference the genetic family of bpd, schiz and adhd. The gene is passed on from generation to generation and can be turned on at any time by any stress potent enough to impact epigenetic function. Puberty, pneumonia, physical trauma, prolonged bullying- take your pick. Anything like that can fuck your genes and activate a condition you didn't know you were walking around with or nudge a gene in just the right (wrong) way to rain on your health parade.

Pardon the swearing. I'm too tired to watch the potty mouth. I think I'm too tired to continue this argument in general.

Read some biology books, folks. Epigenetics explains a huge fucking chunk of previously mysterious health conditions.

[pnwmom]

45. This isn't ONE study. It's a review of multiple studies.

Last edited Thu Jan 12, 2017, 06:03 AM - Edit history (1)

And you wouldn't have had to pay a dime to find that out.

Since there is a simple, safer alternative -- single use vials -- I'd rather exercise caution.

And here is more info from an FDA website:

http://www.who.int/immunization/sage/meetings/2012/april/WHO_meeting_slides_Mitkus_040312.pdf

Remaining uncertainties in QRA for thimerosal
• • Datafromhumanepidemiologicalstudiesofthimerosalin vaccines are reassuring

• • However, acute exposures to thimerosal in infants outside US begin at birth, and no safe level for thimerosal exposure has been established as it has for dietary methyl mercury

• • Thiswouldprovideastandardagainstwhichtocompare results from any future studies involving blood or tissue mercury levels, or assessment of contribution to cumulative mercury toxicity

• • Maybedifficulttoaccomplishwithoutextensiveanimal studies, but constructing a quantitative model of the differences between ethyl and methyl mercury might help bridge the gap
April 3, 2012 20

[arithia]

57. *sigh*

The link you provided last night had the meat of the study behind a pay wall. I tried. Repeatedly. It kept telling me to pay for the document or sign in through my subscribing organization no matter what I clicked on. If I missed a free version off that study, please feel free to link it here in response. I'm always up for a good read.

Your bullet points state that the data is reassuring. Thimerosal is still used in vaccines in children outside the US and they haven't been able to determine at what minimum level it becomes toxic, in part, because it is flushed by the body so quickly. The WHO is suggesting that future studies could use these populations to compare and contrast with populations that don't use Thimerosal in children's vaccines, like we no longer do here in the US.

It isn't a condemnation of the use. It's a suggestion for further study by comparing these populations, along with possible help from animal testing.

Other studies done for VAERS, which are available as links from the cdc website about pregnant women and the flu vaccine, show no patterns of adverse health outcomes for women who get a flu shot during pregnancy. You mentioned the pertussis vaccine earlier as another one given during pregnancy- that one contains no thimerosal. At all. I could find no diagnostic guidelines on which flu shot delivery method (single dose vs multi-vial) was prescribed for pregnant women beyond don't give em the nasal spray.

Bottom line, preggers women in the US might not be getting Thimerosal at all during these vaccines, making your point rather moot.

[pnwmom]

58. I didn't say anything about the pertussis vaccine -- only the flu vaccine.

You must be confusing me with someone else.

My point isn't moot. You are satisfied with the idea that pregnant women "might not" be getting Thimerosal during these vaccines, and that you could find "no diagnostic guidelines" related to their flu vaccines-- I'm not.

There should be a clear directive to give them the single-use vials, since, as the FDA says, there has been no safe level has been established.


http://www.who.int/immunization/sage/meetings/2012/april/WHO_meeting_slides_Mitkus_040312.pdf

Remaining uncertainties in QRA for thimerosal
• • Datafromhumanepidemiologicalstudiesofthimerosalin vaccines are reassuring

• • However, acute exposures to thimerosal in infants outside US begin at birth, and no safe level for thimerosal exposure has been established as it has for dietary methyl mercury

[arithia]

59. apologies, could have sworn you did

Replied before my morning coffee kicked in and probly confused a conversation. Could have sworn someone mentioned the two main vaccines they recommend during pregnancy, which are flu and pertussis. Using wrong words, should be clinical standards, not diagnostic guidelines. Reading back through, it seems I was more tired when I wrote that last post than I thought.

Anyhoo, yes, there should be a clear directive. There might in fact be one- I'm not a clinician. I don't have access to the vials or the boxes they come in with all the warnings and guidelines on em. Do you? Is there a doctor on DU who would weigh in on that one or point to the guidelines?

That WHO link states that it takes many, many times the dose found in vaccines to cause toxicity. They know it can be toxic. As I said, WATER intake in high enough amounts can kill you.

You can keep linking the bold text all you want, it's still referencing the fact that vaccines outside the US use Thimerosal. That's why they mention exposure begins at birth. Baby means it's born. It's not a reference to in utero or it would say begins in utero.

[pnwmom]

60. Are you seriously going to say that with no safe standard established for babies,

exposure to fetuses and their developing brains is not also a concern?

[arithia]

61. *facepalm*

I'm saying they haven't found enough evidence to say that it is a concern for in utero. THEY are saying they haven't found enough evidence to say that it is a concern for in utero. They state that the results so far are reassuring that it's ok. It's right there above the bold face type you keep leaving in the form of a run-on.

It's not used on neonates. It's not used in childhood vaccines in the US. They took it out because of concern over mercury and fear that ethylmercury was as toxic as methyl. It's not. Research has shown again and again that the two are metabolized differently. The WHO is advocating for studies based on regions of the world where the chemical in question is still used vs areas where it is not.

This is what medical science does. It checks. It rechecks. It checks again. And again. And again. This is especially true as technology advances. A blurb suggesting a future study isn't proof that it's dangerous.

[pnwmom]

63. You're fine with a default position that it's safe, since the research that

was conducted was "reassuring" -- even though it didn't allow them to actually set a safe level for children.

I'd rather error on the side of caution since there is a perfectly effective alternative available: the same vaccine in a single-use vial.

[arithia]

64. ffs....

Will you please stop trying to tell someone else what their position is? The "you're fine with this" is an assumptive fallacy on your part as you are guessing my thoughts. If you want my opinion, asking a question would be the appropriate course of action instead of trying to put words in my mouth.

I think more studies should be done, particularly in utero studies. Studies of those studies should be done. Studies of THOSE studies should be done, their methodologies examined, their results replicated. That's how good science works. What good science has told us so far is:

* there isn't enough data to support the hypothesis that it's dangerous in the doses used
* it's looking good so far as fears were based around use of METHYL, not the ETHYL that is actually what the drug breaks down to.

Despite decades of testing, it hasn't been shown to be cause for concern. The WHO study you linked stated that in vivo, it takes a suppressed immune system (in which case they wouldn't be getting vaccines) or huge doses way above what's in vaccines to negatively impact a child so yes, they have actually set a safe level for children. They know how much it takes to hurt us and vaccines don't reach that level.

If you want to err on the side of caution, knock yourself out. I personally will continue to pay attention to what the research actually says and the methodology used to reach that conclusion. If it is harmful, science will show as much... repeatedly. So far, it hasn't. In the meantime, people are dying from preventable diseases THE WORLD OVER due to lack of vaccination availability and herd immunity issues. The potential, unproven and hypothetical risks of vaccines are far, far outweighed by the good that they factually do. THAT is my position, not a default good or bad, yes or no.

It has been my experience that when the other side repeatedly tells you what you are thinking vs asking, they probably aren't listening nor are they interested in doing so. I had hoped for better from you as a poster.

[pnwmom]

65. You say:

there isn't enough data to support the hypothesis that it's dangerous in the doses used

That also means there is isn't enough data to prove it's safe -- which is why they haven't set a safe level. As you say, more studies need to be done.

In the meantime, we have single use vials which add no mercury of any kind.

[womanofthehills]

31. Here is the list from CDC of vaccines available for this season and the ages for each vaccine

so why are doctors giving one and two month old babies flu shots? There are zero recommended flu shots for babies under 6 months. I would always get a child's flu shot from a doctor and ask the name of the flu shot - taking a young child to a pharmacy you might not get an age appropriate shot. Notice, they also have separate flu shots for those over 65 yrs. Most people think there is "one flu shot" but there are many different types for different ages. Do pharmacy's have all these different flue shots? - I bet not.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/vaccines.htm

[SidDithers]

8. Anti-vaxxers at DU should be treated the same as chemtrailers...

RFK Jr is a discredited loon.

Sid

[womanofthehills]

11. JFK is a good environmental lawyer and environmentalist

What is wrong with wanting to improve a vaccine made by a pharmaceutical company? Wanting to improve vaccines is not being anti-vax.

[still_one]

9. Unlike thousands of doctors and scientists, Kennedy is a lawyer who does NOT have a

a medical degree.

The CDC, Prevention, WHO, National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and dozens of peer-reviewed studies, and scientific consensus on vaccines and autism is solid, and there is no evidence of a connection.

"Kennedy is utterly convinced, against all evidence otherwise, that the mercury-containing preservative thimerosal that used to be in childhood vaccines in the US until around the end of 2001, when it was removed from nearly all of them, is a major cause of the “autism epidemic,” as he spreads conspiracy theories about the CDC.....

His arguments in general are so full of crankery that it’s hard not to feel contempt for him."
.....

Robert Kennedy Jr. did his best to assist antivaccine activists to defeat SB277 in California:

"Well, lately, RFK, Jr. has been doing his utmost to assist antivaccine advocates and “health freedom” activists to defeat SB277 in California. SB277, as you might recall, is a bill introduced by State Senators Richard Pan and Ben Allen that would repeal the personal belief exemption to school vaccine mandates. Seemingly every major antivaccine activist in the country has been invading California to try to defeat the bill, including, of course, RFK, Jr. had to be part of the action, while promoting his antivaccine movie Trace Amounts."

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/04/09/the-annals-of-im-not-antivaccine-part-15-robert-f-kennedy-jr-and-the-vaccine-associated-holocaust/comment-page-1/

and yes, I lay the 2015 outbreak of Measles in San Diego right at his and every anti-vaxers feet who was pushing this psudo-science.

When someone pushes pseudo-science, it needs to be pointed out, and Kennedy was pushing pseudo-science. Because of his bullshit, not EVIDENCE BASED FACTS, he has helped fuel the anti-vaccine movement.

[womanofthehills]

12. Vaccine Court Awards Millions to Two Children With Autism

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/post2468343_b_2468343.html -

The federal Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, better known as “vaccine court,” has just awarded millions of dollars to two children with autism for “pain and suffering” and lifelong care of their injuries, which together could cost tens of millions of dollars.

The government did not admit that vaccines caused autism, at least in one of the children. Both cases were “unpublished,” meaning information is limited, and access to medical records and other exhibits is blocked. Much of the information presented here comes from documents found at the vaccine court website.

Some observers will say the vaccine-induced encephalopathy (brain disease) documented in both children is unrelated to their autism spectrum disorder (ASD). Others will say there is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise.

What’s more, these cases fit the pattern of other petitions, (i.e., Poling and Banks) in which the court ruled (or the government conceded) that vaccines had caused encephalopathy, which in turn produced permanent injury, including symptoms of autism and ultimately an ASD diagnosis.

[arithia]

17. Anti-vax psuedoscience gets people with repressed immune systems killed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield

Andrew Jeremy Wakefield (born c. 3 September 1956) is a British former gastroenterologist and medical researcher, known for his fraudulent 1998 research paper in support of the now-discredited claim that there was a link between the administration of the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine, and the appearance of autism and bowel disease.[1][2][3][4][5]

After the publication of the paper, other researchers were unable to reproduce Wakefield's findings or confirm his hypothesis of an association between the MMR vaccine and autism,[6] or autism and gastrointestinal disease.[7] A 2004 investigation by Sunday Times reporter Brian Deer identified undisclosed financial conflicts of interest on Wakefield's part,[8] and most of his co-authors then withdrew their support for the study's interpretations.[9] The British General Medical Council (GMC) conducted an inquiry into allegations of misconduct against Wakefield and two former colleagues.[10] The investigation centred on Deer's numerous findings, including that children with autism were subjected to unnecessary invasive medical procedures such as colonoscopies and lumbar punctures,[11] and that Wakefield acted without the required ethical approval from an institutional review board.

[still_one]

19. Not quite the full story. First of all no one ever claimed that vaccines are completely

risk free.

"The usual suspects, such as Natural News, are again pushing the story of Ryan Mojabi (anti-vaccine reporter David Kirby exploited this case earlier in the year). Ryan developed encephalitis within 5-15 days after the MMR, and has permanent neurological injury as a result. This is a table injury, and so was deemed “appropriate for compensation.” Natural News, however, is reporting that:
Of course the anti-vaxers will claim:

" …but the federal government’s kangaroo “vaccine court” has once again conceded, albeit quietly, that the combination measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine does, indeed, cause autism."

but the fact is:

"No they didn’t. They did not even rule that the MMR causes Ryan’s injury, only that compensation is appropriate under their rules. Further, Ryan did not have autism. He had encephalitis (inflammation of the brain) which caused brain injury. This can cause symptoms which superficially might resemble autism (to a non-expert), but it’s not autism.

Natural News is further reporting this as a vindication of Andrew Wakefield, when it is nothing of the sort. Wakefield’s faked science remains utterly discredited.

Also absent from the fearmongering articles are the real facts surrounding encephalitis, measles, and vaccines."

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/mmr-and-autism-rises-from-the-dead/

Wakefield is a fraud who falsified his data, had his license revoked, and his fraudulent report removed from The Lancent

[womanofthehills]

15. National Vaccine Injury and Compensation Program - web page with stats

Why are you guys so against improving vaccines? Most people do not have reactions, but there are increasing numbers of reactions to the flu vaccine.

The United States has the safest, most effective vaccine supply in history. In the majority of cases, vaccines cause no side effects, however they can occur, as with any medication—but most are mild. Very rarely, people experience more serious side effects, like allergic reactions.

In those instances, the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) allows individuals to file a petition for compensation.

https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/data/

https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/data/statisticsreport.pdf

[arithia]

18. We aren't against improving vaccines. We are against bullsh*t.

Allergic reactions can occur in anyone. I was in my 20s before I discovered over half of my allergies, some of which were serious and potentially lethal. Short of testing everyone before a vaccine is given, allergic reactions will continue to occur. Allergies can also be lessened over time with routine exposure to the allergen- this is how we treat mild food allergies now. You quite literally build tolerance.


You have yet to produce any science that supports your point. None. You just keep going back to "vaccine court" payouts as if courts have never made a mistake or agreed with junk science over actual medicine and science.

There are people who cannot get vaccinated because of repressed immune systems. People who do not get vaccines, but can, become potential carriers who put holes in herd immunity. If enough of the herd CAN contract a disease, it will. People who cannot get vaccines are prevented from getting them by the rest of our immunity to them- the disease cannot find enough hosts to gain hold in a community.

You are peddling paranoid, anti-science propaganda that kills.

[still_one]

20. best rebuttal yet

[womanofthehills]

26. Actually- Guillain Barre syndrome seems to be one of the main serious side effects- 2 people per mil

and I don't konw if it's really an allergic reaction - your immune system attacks your nervous system. For all the people protected from the flu, it's a small number who get sick but maybe no one has to get sick from the flu shot if it is improved. Luckily, most people recover from GBS but not all. This is a 2 people per million side effect according to CDC - that equals probably almost 400 cases a yr from flu shot because the US has 168 million flu shots this year. I don't see why you don't think this number can be improved. An adult friend just got GBS after a tetanus shot so I've been researching it.

Strange and probably not good, but Europe has no compulsory childhood vaccinations except for France which has 2 compulsory vaccines. Vaccines are recommended by doctors in Europe, but no one has to get them. Most people, however, are not afraid to travel to Europe.

[arithia]

32. Psuedoscience Kills

1) No one actually knows what causes Guillain Barre. Well, short of Zika. It's been confirmed that one will cause it. It usually appears days or weeks after a respiratory or digestive tract infection, which can be viral or bacterial.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/guillain-barre-syndrome/basics/causes/con-20025832
https://www.ninds.nih.gov/Disorders/Patient-Caregiver-Education/Fact-Sheets/Guillain-Barr%C3%A9-Syndrome-Fact-Sheet

It isn't the vaccine additives itself causing it if GB is caused by the infection- it's the VIRUS. Viruses routinely re-write our DNA, in fact, 8% of human DNA is viral dna that inserted itself into our code. It's *suspected* that the virus or infection rewrites the code enough that the immune system doesn't recognize your own cells. As you can get GB multiple ways other than vaccines and one gender (and ethnicity) is more affected than the other, this hints again at an underlying genetic susceptibility.

2) Your comment on European vaccinations is dead wrong. http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=20183

"In total 15 countries do not have any mandatory vaccinations; the remaining 14 have at least one mandatory vaccination included in their programme. Vaccination against polio is mandatory for both children and adults in 12 countries; diphtheria and tetanus vaccination in 11 countries and hepatitis B vaccination in 10 countries. For eight of the 15 vaccines considered, some countries have a mixed strategy of recommended and mandatory vaccinations. Mandatory vaccination may be considered as a way of improving compliance to vaccination programmes. However, compliance with many programmes in Europe is high, using only recommendations"

Most people are not afraid to travel to Europe because they are protected by Herd Immunity, which I mentioned earlier. Compliance is high. The herd is protected. In place where there isn't enough participation for herd immunity, breakouts of serious, life threatening diseases occur. We've seen it here in the US

3) "I don't see why you don't think this number can be improved" Don't put words in my mouth. It's not nice. Nor is it smart. You've done it several times now and I'm not obligated to stay polite if you keep that crap up.

I'm all for improving vaccines. That means recognizing REAL science and building upon a foundation of testing, observation and now, genetic/epigenetic analysis. Kneeejerk reactions to scary sounding things that are found naturally in the body doesn't help anyone, let alone medical science.

What you are peddling is killing people.

[womanofthehills]

36. CDC does list GBS as a rare side effect of vaccines

The Vaccine Injury Compensation Program's largest payouts seem to be for GBS if you look at all the vaccine injury lawyers web pages. Although the government says there is a "possible small association", they will pay if you get GBS and only occasionally pay for autism.

Some studies have found a possible small association of injectable flu vaccine with Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS). Overall, these studies estimated the risk for GBS after vaccination as fewer than 1 or 2 cases of GBS per one million people vaccinated. Other studies have not found any association. GBS also, rarely, occurs after flu illness. Even though GBS following flu illness is rare, GBS is more common following flu illness than following flu vaccination. GBS has not been associated with the nasal spray vaccine.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/general.htm

[arithia]

38. Small possible association is not proof

"Other studies have not found any association". Did you not notice this part? This is not settled science. Payouts from a court do not constitute scientific proof, particularly when pertinent records are sealed from public view due to privacy laws.

"Even though GBS following flu illness is rare, GBS is more common following flu illness than following flu vaccination" sounds like a reason to vaccinate, not avoid it.

It's lesson time dear, so please pull up a chair and pay attention.

Think of DNA as a coat zipper. You know those little prongs at the end of a coat zipper? The ones that keep the pulltab from flying off? DNA has caps at the end of it that prevent the DNA from being unraveled and reprogrammed. These caps are called the Telomere. Telomere decay happens naturally as we age. The cap gets smaller and smaller, shorter and shorter, until genetic mutations start creeping into cell reproduction.

Long story short- old people's cells make sh*tty copies of themselves/ have lower defenses and thus, are more susceptible to genetic decay and disease.

Viruses can unzip that coat and insert itself into the code all by themselves. Stress, ranging from psychological to biological to environmental (like bacterial infections), can cause genes to function in ways they aren't supposed to. Either of those two factors, epigenetic stress or viral replacement, alters the function of cells by changing up the code. Bacteria, gut bacteria in particular, plays a huge role in maintaining your DNA health.

https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2016/10/17/how-epigenetics-our-gut-microbiome-and-the-environment-interact-to-change-our-lives/

What we know about genetics, viral infection and the human body doesn't point to vaccines being the cause of the disease. With age and known infection as factors, there is more going on here than your bunk about organic mercury that leaves the bloodstream in a week or less.

[Freethinker65]

28. +1000

[Warren DeMontague]

41. one Kennedy is an anti-vaxxer, another had problems w/pills so he wants more pot smokers in prison.

I'm not, like, super impressed with this generation of the family.

[HoneyBadger]

46. This is a very informative thread

[obamanut2012]

47. Why is anti vax CT stuff allowed on DU?

It is literally no different than chemtrails garbage, Wait, it is much worse, because it actually kills people.

[Orrex]

49. Because a bunch of people believe it, even though it's 100% bullshit

[geek tragedy]

51. Anti-vaxxers like RFK Jr are dangerously stupid and crazy nt

[jberryhill]

52. "progressives, who should be at least supportive of the idea of research"

Does RFK Jr. possess any relevant credentials in this area? No.

Does RFK Jr. conduct any medical research? No.

[Grey Lemercier]

53. Anti-Vax tosh on DU?

[Kali]

54. this bullshit shouldn't be allowed on a progressive site, but

admins did create a forum for it if you absolutely must http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1135

[alarimer]

55. Ignorant bullshit

anti-vaccine = pro-infectious disease.

anti-vaccine = not progressive.

You want people to die from easily preventable disease. That is despicable and you are every bit the science-denier that Republicans are.

[H2O Man]

62. I like Robert.

We've been friends since the 1980s. He is not "anti-vaccine." Anyone who says he is would thus be either woefully ignorant, pr purposely lying.