I'm afraid of Trump, but some of the hyperbole here is really not helpful

[onenote]

Last edited Fri Jan 13, 2017, 06:01 PM - Edit history (1)

I get it that Trump does and says whatever he wants. And I get it that he's a narcissistic, vindictive asshole of the highest order. But the hyperbole in some of the posts in recent days is off the charts. Trump is going to declare martial law the moment he's inaugurated. Trump is going to lock up anyone who disagrees with him in a concentration camp. Inauguration day will turn into an American Kristallnacht.

The problem is that none of those things are going to happen. And when they don't happen, those posts will be there on DU for Trump-lovers to point to as evidence that we have no credibility, that anything and everything we say should be disregarded.

And that's not helpful.

EDITED THREAD TITLE BECAUSE I CAN SEE WHERE PEOPLE ARE MISSING MY POINT.

[bettyellen]

1. He appears to be leaving the Nat Guard without leadership for the march 1/21

[guillaumeb]

6. Hoping for enough chaos to discredit the demonstrators?

When we marched against NATO in Chicago, police came from all over. They were sent in response to the hysterical rhetoric about hordes of violent demonstrators. We marched and demonstrated and it was very peaceful.

[onenote]

10. No. He appears to be having the second in command be in charge on 1/21

The DC National Guard has a robust command structure. What Trump is doing is stupid because it's an indication that his transition team is making no effort to decide whether keeping a particular presidential appointee on board makes more sense than immediately relieving them of their office. But the DC National Guard won't be "without leadership" on Jan 21.

http://dc.ng.mil/History/Command/Pages/default.aspx

[billymike]

11. thanks! (nt)

[bettyellen]

12. So without confident and stable leadership... I stand corrected.

[onenote]

18. And what makes you so certain that the folks in that list aren't "confident and stable"

That's a pretty serious charge to make about a group of folks, most of whom have more than 30 years military service under their belts.

[bettyellen]

42. It's serious when so many well respected heads are on the chopping block...

Very unusual circumstances. Instead of the normal capable people handling everything it seems like everyone in charge who can be fired IS being fired. I would not be surprised to hear it's a whole lot of "second in commands" suddenly taking the reins at once, with very little warning to plan.

Aside from that I'd be surprised if Trumps Breitbart influenced campaign people are not planning some ugly disruptive crap as well. He'd love to turn it into a shit show. I've not doubt he's giving it his best effort.

[onenote]

62. Very few political appointees stay over

I've been in DC for my entire life (and I'm over 60). I've worked in or with government for my entire adult life. My father put in over 30 years as a government attorney.

It happens every time an administration from one party is replaced by an administration of another party.

What makes it different this time is that the Trump transition team doesn't seem to have taken the time to consider whether to carry over some of the Obama appointees who are not particularly political, such as the Commanding General of the DC Guard. It's incompetence, something we're going to be seeing a lot from the Trump transition.

[bettyellen]

65. That and leaving a shit ton of jobs unfilled or staffed with incompetents....

[ananda]

57. All I can say is, we'll see.

I think the corporate oligarchy loves having Trump in office
theoretically ..

.. but in practice, it will be a different story.

It will be as bad as you can imagine and probably worse.

Think in terms of a rudderless ship whirling around in an ocean
of irresponsible, greedy tyrants who don't know what the hell
they're doing except seeing a lot of green $ signs in their future.

[Crash2Parties]

70. They - and the rest of the GOP - are trying to erase any sign Obama was ever President.

That is all that matters to them. Once that is done, they'll continue building their theocracy. In the meantime they'll be working on privatizing or outright stealing everything that isn't nailed down.

[angstlessk]

2. You must be reading a different forum...

"a narcissistic, vindictive asshole of the highest order" is about to become the most powerful individual on earth...THAT'S SCARY ENOUGH...we don't need the 'rest of the story'

[guillaumeb]

3. I understand that anxiety can make everything look much worse than it really is.

And I read some of what is posted here as anxious people venting in a safe spot. But the GOP has already signaled that they see their opportunity to undo everything that President Obama did. So some anxiety is understandable, and the professed willingness to contact the media and public officials about the issues is great. And the more protesting that is done the better. Especially to counter the Trump/GOP nonsense about a mandate.

[MFM008]

4. Dear onenote

there isn't enough bandwidth on the internet to contain my disgust and disdain,
revulsion and disbelief at this current coup.
Now if any maggot supporters have a problem with that they can drop dead.
I only have to be credible about what I think and feel, no one else.
The paranoia is there for a reason.
Maggot has shown himself unstable, desire to buck tradition and norms, no respect for differing opinion.
Now, put this all together and you get
P A R A N O I A.
I believe he shows more paranoia than anyone on this site.

[Squinch]

5. Let's talk in two years, and then we'll decide who was being paranoid today.

This ain't paranoia. This is paying attention.

And when you say, "None of this stuff is going to happen!" A year ago, would you have said that Russia was going to decide the election?

At this point anything can happen.

[cynatnite]

7. I'd say you're right if it was anybody but Trump...

The man's going to have control of our military and nuclear arsenal.

[billymike]

8. the terrible truth is that we don't know what will develop

beginning the 20th, and speculation about the most alarming conditions we might imagine is not instructive, because the most dire predictions leave no room for escape, so I simply end up freaking out. And yes, I read every scary post I find; I find they have enticing titles, too. We don't know what the future holds; we never have.

[madaboutharry]

9. People are reacting to fear of the unknown.

In the past, for the most part, America remained recognizable as it transitioned from one Administration to the next. This time something is very different. People are feeling that there is going to be a dramatic shift in the country on all levels; economically, socially, and culturally. And not for the better.

Martial Law may certainly be a stretch, but does anyone believe that Trump won't search for ways to curtail freedom? He is probably now trying to find a way to jail reporters.

[onenote]

13. I'm not saying he won't try to curtail our rights and freedoms. I'm pointing out specific claims

that are hyperbolic and that have the effect of undermining the legitimate concerns we share. Because it's harder to convince someone he's going to do X if you said he was going to do Y and he didn't do it.

[Demit]

20. You seem very casual about his trying to curtail our rights & freedoms!

Yeah, I guess we could be more chill, if that's all we have to worry about.

[onenote]

26. I'm anything but casual about it.

But I'm going to have a hard time getting people to believe me when I tell them to be afraid of Trump if I run around first saying that next week he's declaring martial law.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. The biggest argument against martial law is it would roil the markets.

The rest of the world would think we lost our collective minds and start dumping American stocks.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

81. "The rest of the world would think we lost our collective minds...."

I think that train has already left the station.

[etherealtruth]

15. I am incredulous, disgusted, disturbed

[vi5]

16. Well said....

....and I still firmly believe part of the reason we are here is because we went a few times too frequently to the hyperbole well.

"Bush is a facist!!!" The 2000 and 2004 elections are the most important in our lifetime!!!"

"McCain is a facist!!! The 2008 election is the most important election in our lifetime!!!"

Romney is a facist!!!! The 2012 election is the most important election in our lifetime!!!!"

I'm not saying Bush didn't suck, and I believe that McCain and Romney would have sucked just as badly if not worse.

But they are not even close to being in the same league as what we are dealing with now and the fact is that after a certain point, the lower information, not overtly political types start to tune this shit out.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. Bush, McCain, and Romney all paid lip service to democratic norms and the rule of law.

None of those gentlemen called for the imprisonment of their political rivals, threatened to weaken libel laws, deport eleven million undocumented workers and their families, and prevent members of a religious group from entering America and surveilling the ones who are already here.

Martial law
Internment camps
Kristallnacht


Who knows how he would react to an emergency and what his League of Deplorables would do?

[vi5]

39. I agree completely...

..which was my point. When Trump finally came along, to many people who don't pay super close attention he was just the next in a long line of fascists who was going to destroy the country if elected.

He is obviously much, much, MUCH worse than that. But to some degree we have been the boy who cries fascist wolf for the past 16 years or so and a lot of people just started tuning it out and thinking that none of them end up doing what they say they are going to do anyway, so who cares.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. I never said they were fascists and I dismissed talk of them acting as such as nonsense.

Trump is a whole different kettle of fish.

[vi5]

60. He is indeed...

I dismissed that talk as well. Those previous candidates were bad for the country and oppossed to what we as Democrats believe. But what Trump stands for is a whole other universe of bad and evil.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. I thought it was crazy talk. Trump is unhinged and has fascist tendencies. He is a unique threat.

And I think those guys loved their country, like us !. I just think our direction is better.

Trump only loves himself.

[Generator]

53. Well Bush and Cheney did start illegal wars and torture people

We are just lucky there wasn't any more terrorist attacks or some of that stuff Trump talks about-deporting people-Muslim registries would have probably come up. We were on the edge of things there for awhile. And some of us still don't trust the answers about 9/11 so it's not like the Bush years were a cake walk. But Trump is beyond anything we have ever seen in this country. And every day there is a new outrage. EVERY DAMN DAY.

[DK504]

17. And never in my life I thought I would see the HEAD of the FBI

throw the election by leaking a bullshit story. Nor did I ever think that Russians would be able to hack into whatever they wanted and create havoc in our election, C-Span and power grids.

I'm very concerned about this cozy little relationship with Putin, the KGB (yeah Putin just reinstated that), the money and the graft coming from this so called administration. This demented con man is setting out to rip the government apart by putting in the most inept people in the highest positions in the government.

He loses the popular vote, people weren't allowed to vote, he is going after journalists, he wants to get rid of the 1st Amendment. If these things don't make you furious and more than a little concerned, I have to ask, have been paying attention?????

[dgibby]

19. Just because you're

paranoid, it doesn't mean the bastards aren't out to get you.

[onenote]

23. True. But just because Trump will try to roll back our rights doesn't mean he's going to declare

martial law next week.

I'll say it again: my point isn't that there isn't plenty about Trump to fear. It's just that if you say he's going to do X (the bad thing that is almost certainly hyperbole) and he doesn't do it, convincing someone that he's going to do Y (the bad thing he actually might do) gets harder.

[marybourg]

21. Only the Publicans are allowed hyperbole.

Lock her up, Kenyan President, Death Panels, Aborting 8 1/2 month fetuses to have a manicure instead, etc. etc., etc.

Dems are required to be sane and sober at all times, no matter the provocation.

[Generator]

55. Maybe if we had more outrage instead of less

Something would change. Just a thought. Of course the op is worried how we'll look to the other side. They hate us and want us dead (some of them for sure) so I don't think any hysteria is the problem. They will hate us and want us dead no matter what we say or do. They hate us. I don't know why that is so hard to understand.

[SecularMotion]

22. We're in rough waters here, don't scold people for getting seasick.

[blue cat]

30. +1 n/t

[moda253]

25. I remember this post in the days leading up to the election

It isn't paranoia when you are staring down the barrel of a gun.

[onenote]

27. Again, you've missed the point.

There is plenty to be afraid of. But if we're going to be taken seriously when we try to convince others to share those fears, it doesn't help if we first claim that he's declaring martial law next week and he doesn't.

[Squinch]

48. What exactly do you think will happen if we posit that he will declare martial law and he doesn't?

Will Republicans giggle toward us? Is that something you feel we need to care about?

He's going to do something, and it's going to be extreme.

[lunatica]

28. Some people can be quite calm with creeping authoritarianism

Others can see what's coming.

[onenote]

29. And that's actually my concern.

That it will be harder to get people to see and join us in fighting the creeping authoritarianism if we run around saying the sky is going to fall all at once tomorrow and it doesn't.

[lunatica]

31. Well criticizing people sure won't get them to listen to you when

you decide it's time to rally them.

Maybe the time is right now, when it's obvious what's happening.

[onenote]

35. We absolutely should be talking about -- shouting about -- what he's doing

We shouldn't muddy that up with wild claims about things he almost certainly won't do, like declare martial law.

[Squinch]

50. How about conspiring with Russians to steal the election? Would it have been OK for us to

shout about that? Even though he almost certainly wouldn't have done that?

[billymike]

54. Fear can block rational thought and coordinated action. (nt)

[Sanity Claws]

32. It is your opinion that none of those things will happen

and it sounds like wishful thinking.
There are enough signs out there that all of us should be concerned about his actions. Your labeling our concern as paranoia is what is not helpful.

[joshcryer]

33. I actually don't think Trump, himself, is the end of the world.

However, he will undoubtedly halt the progress we've been making and that will have repercussions for decades. It will put us back as a civilization. Particularly as it involves climate change, but more importantly, as it involves multiculturalism and human diversity. There is going to be, thanks to Trump and his policies, a dividing line among nations. Ousting him should be our number #1 priority to stop this from having a lasting impact.

[Jeroen]

34. I've been on many right wing forums in recent years

Most of these people can't hardly wait to hurt, humiliate or even kill their progressive, fellow countrymen. Trump will unleash that anger, you can count on it.

[onenote]

36. All that's true. Now a simple question for you:

Do you believe he will declare martial law on January 20?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. What if there is a terrorist attack?

Do you think he would use that as a pretext to declare martial law?

[treestar]

44. Bush didn't

Bad as a terrorist attack is, bad as 911 was, it did not justify shutting down the courts or any legal process.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. Bush isn't Trump.

[treestar]

49. Yeah whoever thought we would

find somebody worse?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. Bush didn't have announced authoritarian intentions

Last edited Fri Jan 13, 2017, 07:56 PM - Edit history (1)

[LittleBlue]

67. Let's hope not

The orange one isn't half as sinister as Dick Cheney. He's a big orange baby who tweets like an angsty teen. Give him rope and he'll hang himself.

[Jeroen]

40. No, I don't

I actually think your post is a justified call for calm and reason.
That said, I have to keep myself in check not to go there.

[treestar]

43. Is there even a legal ground on which a President can do

such a thing?

[treestar]

47. Researching this

The power to do so usually is granted in the state constitution. Congress has never declared martial law. ... The martial law declared by Lincoln during the Civil War spawned another legal challenge, this one to the military courts: ex parte milligan, 71 U.S. (4 Wall.)

I found someone making a point that now there are not enough military troops to enforce it nationwide.

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_mlaw.html

And if you google martial law USA you get a lot of fervid, feverish, insane and unhinged sites claiming Obama is going to do it.

[onenote]

63. The Supreme Court on martial law.

"If, in foreign invasion or civil war, the courts are actually closed, and it is impossible to administer criminal justice according to law, then, on the theatre of active military operations, where war really prevails, there is a necessity to furnish a substitute for the civil authority, thus overthrown, to preserve the safety of the army and society; and as no power is left but the military, it is allowed to govern by martial rule until the laws can have their free course. As necessity creates the rule, so it limits its duration; for, if this government is continued after the courts are reinstated, it is a gross usurpation of power. Martial rule can never exist where the courts are open, and in the proper and unobstructed exercise of their jurisdiction. It is also confined to the locality of actual war."

[treestar]

75. In modern times, it seems impossible to happen

except in a very local area, perhaps one affected by a catastrophic natural disaster.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. Two points

Lincoln imposed martial law during the Civil War.

Most cities can't even enforce a curfew. I doubt they could enforce martial law, especially with social media. Spontaneous protests would be popping up everywhere, exposing the weakness of the central government.

[treestar]

76. Yes, as long as there is no actual

war - with our current strength, seems impossible for it to be other than a civil war, and how could one get started without it being handled before things got that bad? The only case I can envision is some natural disaster causing courts to be unable to function - maybe an earthquake that is bad enough to cause that.

[lunatica]

37. I agree

To assume or think it can't happen here is to be very naive. It can happen anywhere.

[Jeroen]

45. Trump wouldn't be such a problem if the US wasn't so fractured and polarized

But of course, that is one of the reasons he got elected. Now that the democratic process is undermined and the press dysfunctional, violence and corruption are likely. And let's not forget the climate. Neglecting climate change is criminal

[kurtcagle]

52. Why paranoia IS warranted

Trump just scored the Trifecta - complete control of all three branches of government. There are quite literally no checks on him.

Those states under Republican control will move to secure that control (purge lists will become not only more commonplace, but will start targeting anyone who is not a Christian and ultimately anyone who has been actively vocal about the direction of government). You will see Republican states than have implemented referendum processes repeal them. They made that mistake under Bush II, thinking that they had time before there was enough of a backlash; they are already moving now not to repeat that mistake.

Trump has moved aggressively to purge the intelligence services and the state department, and he will attempt to do the same thing with the military, because they CAN move against him - it's extraconstitutional, but there are contingency plans in place. Once this happens, yes, Trump CAN do anything he wants.

Will he? The man moved his base of operation from Washington DC to New York. He is dismantling the existing bureaucracy, replacing those people with are loyal only to him, regardless of how corrupt they are otherwise. He is using the bully pulpit to threaten companies and has promised more "rallies" with his followers that are beginning to look a whole lot like German brownshirts in the early 1930s. He knows he has no legitimacy, so is doing everything he can to make it impossible to remove him.

America works only if there are checks and balances. It's one reason that divided governments are the norm - too much concentrated power CAN break the system. The longer that he is in power, the more he becomes entrenched, the more extreme the behavior that he can display.

It is also worth remembering that while most progressives see conservatives as annoyances - people who aren't very bright or compassionate but that ultimately can be negotiated with - a great number of those conservatives see LIEBERALs as being the ENEMY, people who are out to get them, who ultimately should be shot because they don't believe the right way. This may not be a rational view, but it is a widely held one, and those people are now in control of the government.

So, yes, I think that there is a great deal of cause for alarm and action. What I fear most is that the forms of a democracy - its elections - will end up appearing to remain intact, but control of the results will no longer be.

[Generator]

56. Excellent post and weclome to DU

For as long as we are allowed on the internet.

[bettyellen]

66. This SHOULD be an OP- welcome to DU!

[uponit7771]

68. op worthy!!!!

[Alekzander]

73. Excellent post & very true: Everything you said is right & fear is certainly warranted

due to those Trump is surrounding himself with. Look at Flynn, Bannon among other Russians. Think about what Gingrich is telling him where he basically says don't worry about your cabinet violating laws, you can just pardon them if & after they do.

All one has to do is take a look at what Trump is doing & what he is as you say, dismantling & there is very good cause to worry.

It is hard to believe those on DU who are trying to say everything is OK with Trump & some on DU are overboard in their fear or exaggeration of what Trump might do.

[treestar]

77. He can't control the courts that well

There will still be appointees from prior administrations. There are still state courts. Judges have to write an opinion based on law and precedent. It's not purely political. Even Scalia would have had to make a legal case to underpin anything he backed. Plus they Supreme Court Justices are on for life, so they don't have to be concerned about who appointed them and pleasing them. Nixon appointed a justice who turned out rather liberal. Roberts was appointed by Dubya yet he contributed to upholding the ACA.

[UTUSN]

58. Neh, those lacking critical thinking to misinterpret are not likely to care about our credibility.

[HassleCat]

59. We just don't know.

Some of that stuff could happen, bizarre as it seems. He is so unpredictable, such a wild card, that anything could happen. For example, I expect a war, but I have no idea where or how.

[baldguy]

64. You *do* realize the next 4 years are going to be a fricken' disater, don't you?

And afterward, the people who end up living under a bridge eating rats will be the lucky ones?

[Crunchy Frog]

69. The truth is that you don't KNOW what is or isn't going to happen.

None of us do. It might not be as bad as the pessimists fear, but we don't know that, and it could be worse.

In the past century, we've seen the absolute worst that humanity is capable of. There is no such thing as American exceptionalism, and if it can happen elsewhere, then it can happen here as well.

People have every right to be scared, and this is a place where people can share their feelings openly and get support.

As for undermining our credibility with Trump lovers? Are you kidding?

The RW in this country was howling for years that Obama was a Muslim terrorist, and was going to institute Sharia law, and confiscate all the guns, and I don't even know what else they were afraid of. It didn't undermine their credibility enough to make the Pukes loose elections.

Honestly, if it bothers you that much, use the trash thread feature. If people's worst fears don't come to pass, then you can be relieved. If they do come to pass, then you won't have to put up with those kinds of posts on DU for very much longer.

[herding cats]

71. I can't help but find any credibility argument adorable.

Seriously, you're worried about credibility, now, in this political climate? We have a person about to be presient who lies, daily, on Twitter. A person who embraces Alex Fucking Jones, and has Brannon, from breitbart as one of his trusted advisers.

Pizzagate, Benghazi, emails and Birtherism won the day, and we have to be credible? We actually lost voters to bullshit fake news propaganda, but we have to be careful? We had fake news propaganda being spread as gospel here on DU, and people were eating it up. Some, still do for that matter. But, we have to raise the bar?! Are you kidding me, or have you been in a coma for the past 8 years? This isn't your old internet from back in the early 2000's anymore. It's ugly, and clannish. It's full of lies, and disinformation being taken for truth. That's the new normal. If it fits your ideological bend, it will be served up to you as fact. Would you like fries with that? <--- this is who America is right now, and they're currently embracing this lunacy.

Have you seen some of the insane shit that's now taken as fact on the internet? But we're supposed to be better than that? Wake up call... this is the new normal. Yes, it's disgusting, it sucks, and I, personally, hate it, but it's what we are as a nation now. At least at this moment. We either evolve to counter it, or we don't.

I get where you're coming from, but I'm perplexed as to how you think your words are relevant in this era. Unless you have some brilliant bit of wisdom to share as to how we, collectively, end this insanity, you're in the same boat as the rest of us. Adrift in a sea of modern propaganda, trying to navigate these foreign seas.

[briv1016]

72. I feel bad for those who still have hope. You still have room to fall.

[Lint Head]

78. They said the same things about President Obama.

Particularly the martial law thing. Let them point. I have a middle finger for them. To hell with that traitorous asshole.

[MineralMan]

80. So, what are you suggesting, exactly, that we do?

Should we belay attacks on Trump altogether? Should we stand by and watch as he runs roughshod over people's rights?

We don't know what he has planned, actually. So, there's speculation. That's just natural.

Personally, I plan to ridicule him, to rail against him and generally to do whatever I can to upset things.

I don't care what Trump supporters do, say or think. Screw them and their leader, too.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

82. We will never have to worry about martial law or camps because there is no way in the world

that he will even win the Republican nomination, much less get elected President.

[OldEurope]

83. Why I am afraid:

In three years that man will need a reason to be reelected. And the only reason I can imagine will be a war. Because Americans won't change horses in the middle of the river. Or something. Like after 9/11 or in the World War. And the fallout of his war with China will destroy whatever his war on climate left over. I am afraid of your new president.

[radical noodle]

86. We changed horses during Vietnam n/t

[H2O Man]

84. Recommended.

I agree 100%.

[cornball 24]

85. 1. Trump is unhinged and capable of ANYTHING! 2. Those who are still Trump lovers/supporters

are incapable of renouncing him no matter what he has done or will do. Ergo, IMHO, what is shared on DU will have no effect on and is irrelevant to those who continue to support him.

[radical noodle]

87. Even worse are those

progressives who have maintained that Trump is better than Hillary. They can't back off from that, even now. They oppose some things he does, but less vociferously than we do because they have to justify their decision to let him win.