Jill Stein got to keep over $4 million from the funds she scammed for her recounts.

[pnwmom]

How many people gave money they couldn't really afford in the hope that they'd get fair recounts of all three states -- and possibly overturn the election?

She knew from the beginning that she'd already missed the deadline for an automatic Pennsylvania recount, so that recount court petition was a Hail Mary pass.

So, between the money she never had to spend in Pennsylvania, and the $2 million in funds returned to her from WI and MI, she had quite a sum left over at the end of it all. She went from about $58K cash on hand at the end of the campaign, to more than $4 million cash on hand after the partial recounts of two of the states.

But she kept pleading for more donations till the bitter end.

And now Jill Stein, the only candidate who had dinner with Putin in Russia last winter, has a big pile of cash to use to disrupt the next Presidential election. And desperate Democrats helped her get it.

http://www.fec.gov/fecviewer/CandidateCommitteeDetail.do?candidateCommitteeId=P20003984&tabIndex=1


POST-GENERAL(receipts) $5,957,251 (disbursements) $1,845,255 (cash-on-hand) $4,170,298


PRE-GENERAL (receipts) $310,069 (dispursements) $325,447 (cash-on-hand) $58,303


______________________

And the votes going to Jill Stein could have flipped the election, if these people hadn't been deluded into voting against Hillary.

Stein votes/Trump margin:

MI: 51,463/10,704
PA: 49,678/46,765
WI: 31,006/22,177

http://www.salon.com/2016/12/02/jill-stein-spoiled-the-2016-election-for-hillary-clinton/

[larry budwell]

1. No Surprise here

No difference between Stein and the Orange Monster.

[HassleCat]

2. Unfortunate

Maybe a Democrat should have filed for recounts.

[pnwmom]

3. PA had too big a margin to qualify in the normal way, no matter who filed it.

And the other two states wouldn't have been enough votes by themselves.

[Demsrule86]

131. Sorry keeping the money shows what she is...and never forget she helped elect Trump and is way to

cozy with Putin.

[FarPoint]

58. Hey folks..

I warned you here on DU...It didn't feel right..

[democratisphere]

4. Screwed and used HRC, then made her getaway with the loot.

Stein is a fraud.

[Maru Kitteh]

5. The Democrats could run the second coming of Paul Wellstone with

David Kucinich as the veep and Stein or whatever doofus the Greens put up would STILL claim the same shit they did this go around and EVERY SINGLE OTHER election they've darkened. Not perfect enough. Just like the Republicans. Corporate. Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Duh, either way, just as bad.

Fuck. Jill. Stein.

[SunSeeker]

6. Yep. Stein is a tool of the right wing. nt

[Chevy]

7. Russians using far left parties to divide moderates in Europe

Jill Stein has received support from Russia(online trolls) possible links of dark money. Sanders campaign has ties to Russian interests in Tad Devine(Worked with Manafort in the Ukraine)

http://www.jehsmith.com/1/2016/08/jill-stein-is-an-agent-of-putin-too.html|

[pnwmom]

11. That is a really interesting article -- and quite prescient. Thanks. n/t

[yardwork]

34. This is exactly what is happening here in the US.

[DFW]

127. They have been doing that here in Europe for 50 years

The French and the West German left were both "shocked" (except for the ones who knew all along) to find, after the dissolution of East Germany and then the Soviet Union, to see Stasi and KGB files laying out how they financed and supported various movements of the western European left to do their bidding.

French Communist Party boss Georges Marchais, an orthodox Stalinist who was rich and lived in a fancy mansion, was whining about "betrayal" after the successors to the CPUSSR opened a trove of KGB files on him and the PCF.

More than a few members of the Greens in West Germany were not pleased to find that they had been infiltrated and manipulated by the Stasi, although they did manage to survive, even credibly after several of their more extreme members moved on. Years before, their founders, the idealistic Petra Kelly and her boyfriend, were found murdered in a double shooting that some wanted to be a relationship-driven suicide, but forensics was not able to confirm to any KTU (German CSI) satisfaction.

[PotatoChip]

130. Wouldn't that mean that Al Gore and John Kerry had "ties to Russian interests" too?

Tad Devine worked as a senior adviser on their campaigns as well.

Or did Devine suddenly become enamored with Russia only after Putin came along?

[betsuni]

10. +1

[JI7]

17. remember that Nader held off supporting Wellstone for a long time in 2002

and when he did it was some lame shit .

but after wellstone died he used wellstone to attack other democrats.

really showed the sleazyness of these people.

[AlexSFCA]

8. she is dumb

She is so clueless, got played by putin. She has no understanding of the world, propaganda, disinformation, gaslighting, etc. She even helped get trump elected by posting a few days before election that Hillary would be more dangerous for the world. This is no doubt because putin told her that. She thinks Russia is more to the left (socialism leftover) whereas it is truly far right nationalist oligarchy.

[pnwmom]

9. She isn't dumb if she LET herself get played.

I'd say it's pretty clever to go, in one month, from $58K cash-in-hand to $4 million.

More clever than many of the people who donated to her cause.

[Hekate]

13. Nope. She's dumb like a fox, and she is playing American voters hoping for better.

She should be ashamed -- but I doubt that is in her nature.

[AlexSFCA]

111. she is a fraud and opportunist

[Hekate]

12. This just makes me sick. The Green Party is not worth diddly squat. I can remember ....

...when they used to have such promise, but between Nader and Stein, afaic they exist only to throw national elections to the REPUBLICANS.

Is there any possibility that Jill Stein can be forced to return this money?

[pnwmom]

14. No, I don't think so. When she was collecting her millions, she always said

that if she had some left over it would go toward her party, i.e., her "voter integrity" work.

[diva77]

15. Jill Stein is a hero. So is Ralph Nader. Your arguments are specious.

I applaud Jill Stein for her noble attempt to expose the election fraud that runs rampant in the US now that computerized voting is ubiquitous. The resistance to recounts by declared winners (Bush, Trump for example), and the trouble in conducting recounts when you're dealing with computerized voting (how can you witness what goes on in a proprietary computer program?) are giant red flags where voting integrity is concerned.

Don't you wonder how we ended up with so many republican governors, a republican House of Reps, Senate, President when poll after poll shows that our values are not aligned with those who represent us?

I'll bet Hillary won by a landslide, but unfortunately the combination of hackable computerized voting, and purging voters from the rolls, suppression with too few machines at precincts, precincts being discontinued and placed where people could not get to them, etc, etc, caused the election to go to the wrong candidate.

Check out this forensic analysis of the 2014 elections:

E2014: A Basic (Chilling) Forensic Analysis

2014 Election CODE RED Computerized Election Theft Computerized Vote Counting Election Forensics elections red shift

by Jonathan Simon

December 16, 2014

Read more: http://electiondefensealliance.org/#ixzz4X344NRfr


http://electiondefensealliance.org/

[brush]

16. We've known repugs game electronic voting for at least since Bush and the Diebold non-paper...

trail machines.

So how does that make Stein a hero, or Nader for that matter?

Is it because we got Bush and Trump because of them?

[Cha]

18. stein lied to the America People.. she is a Liar.

"US Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein has said that her supporters should "absolutely not" vote for Hillary Clinton to stop a Donald Trump presidency, even in a swing state.

In an interview with Mehdi Hasan, host of Al Jazeera's Upfront, Stein said that Clinton "is not different enough" from the New York real estate businessman, to enable her or the Democratic Party "to save your job, save your life, or save the planet."

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/09/jill-stein-hillary-trump-presidency-160928210338543.html

She is part ownership of this shitload dictator with a WAR on REALITY that we have now.

[pnwmom]

19. She's an anti-hero. If she'd been serious, she wouldn't have waited till after the PA deadline

to apply, and she'd have been much more honest with her supporters about the odds of winning her court case.

Instead, she collected $2.5 million earmarked for the PA audit she knew wasn't going to happen in PA and then just kept it -- and kept plugging for more millions toward the other audits.

I realize that there are problems with voter suppression, hackable machines, etc., but Jill Stein was never going to overturn the election with those three states -- because the PA audit was never going to happen -- and she should have been more honest with the people who were donating to her.

For example, she first said she needed a few million to do the three audits -- and then as soon as she got the requested amount, she immediately announced that that would only cover one audit (the one in PA that never ended up taking place), and now she needed another two million. Every time she reached a goal she'd suddenly discover a need for even more, till she'd collected $6 million dollars.

That's what this was all about. And so she not only lured progressives into voting for her and helping DT, she earned a big pile of money from her audit scheme. And she was lucky, because she might not have been able to pay all her campaign bills otherwise. If you look at the post-election disbursements, many of those were for expenses incurred before the election. But she only had $58K cash in hand at that point. I wonder how she'd have paid all her bills if she hadn't thought up the audit money-maker?

[Docreed2003]

59. Excellent post!!!

[Blue_true]

109. In addition, she would spend non voting years

Working on vote integrity issues. Attacking republicans in states that are tipping the scales in their favor. Yet, Stein doesn't do that, she comes back every four years to attack Democrats.

[diva77]

115. Jill Stein stepped in to help computer scientists & election lawyers who couldn't get Hillary to ask

for recount.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jill_Stein#2016

In November 2016, a group of computer scientists and election lawyers including J. Alex Halderman and John Bonifaz (founder of the National Voting Rights Institute) claimed[sic] about the integrity of the presidential election results. They wanted a full audit or recount of the presidential election votes in three states key to Trump's electoral college win—Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania—but needed a candidate on the presidential ballot to file the petition to state authorities. After unsuccessfully lobbying Hillary Clinton and her team, the group approached Stein and she agreed to spearhead the recount effort.[120]

[pnwmom]

116. Hillary knew they couldn't qualify for the PA recount because the margin was too big.

Stein threw a Hail Mary pass at a judge and he laughed her lawsuit out of court.

Neither of the other two states did hand counting of any ballots -- the only thing that could show whether there was vote tampering -- so they were worthless. All they did was run the ballots through the same optical scanners, and even more firmly establish the impression on the public that the initial count had been accurate.

And with PA and its many machines with no paper trails, there's no way to know whether those votes were counted properly -- even if they did do an audit/recount.

[jmg257]

32. Great...more "proof of voter fraud" based on exit polls, along with

A study that "800,000 non-citizens voted for HRC".
http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/jesse-richman/

Jill Stein did great in gathering cash by getting upset people to donate for recounts so they could all feel better about the results...how did that work out?

[mythology]

60. That article is based on an incredibly stupid premise

Unadjusted exit polls are utterly worthless.

https://www.thenation.com/article/reminder-exit-poll-conspiracy-theories-are-totally-baseless/

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ten-reasons-why-you-should-ignore-exit/

It's embarrassing seeing people still tout these obviously false "studies".

Also we do have evidence on the difference between hand and machine recounts from Wisconsin and there was no statistical difference between those votes recounted by hand and those by machine.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/recount-found-thousands-of-errors-but-no-major-flaws-in/article_4ad0fe2a-40d8-5cce-8d84-f3e33469c8f1.html

Democratic county election official's article on the subject:

http://host.madison.com/wsj/opinion/column/scott-mcdonell-large-scale-election-changing-voter-fraud-is-fantasy/article_1da4a089-c6f8-5887-a3f9-31652911833c.html

Please stop posting nonsense that has long since been debunked.

[hunter]

96. No, they are grifters.

They have much in common with the right wing grifters they vilify.

Beneath the political posturing, with all the green flag waving, in front of their gullible supporters, it's really all about them.

These kind of "heroes" do not make the U.S.A. a better place.

I'm a radical leftist and an environmental extremist. Hell, if I was Emperor of the Planet Earth, I would ban fossil fuels on a ten year timetable and tax the uber-wealthy out of existence. Fuck Nader's safe cars, I'd get rid of personal automobiles as we now know them entirely. A universal 50 kph speed limit would work. (Nader saved the automobile industry from itself. They should give him a medal... But even much improved, with crash cages, seat belts, and airbags, automobiles are still stinky, dangerous, environmentally destructive machines.)

Nevertheless, my politics are utterly practical. I don't let my utopian thinking get in the way. Obama was one of this nation's great Presidents. Trump will be one of the worst. I proudly voted for Obama, I proudly voted for Clinton.

I don't even think the aphorism "The Perfect is the enemy of the Good" applies to Stein. She's merely a disruptor. Noise. I won't even give her credit as any kind of "conscience" in U.S. politics. The platform Hillary Clinton ran on was realistic and represented progressive U.S.A. values well.

[Hekate]

114. Did you forget a sarcasm smiley?

[HoneyBadger]

20. She is the only candidate that fought for a recount

Just the idea of a recount is worth pursuing, because as Americans, it is our right, regardless of who is behind it.

[pnwmom]

23. She had enough for her recounts with the first $2.5 million she raised,

with a half million to spare.

Interestingly, that was the original amount she asked for, that was supposed to pay for the three recounts. However, when she raised that much very quickly, she immediately saw the chance to raise a lot more money -- for her party. So then she asked for another couple million. And another.

[scipan]

100. No. Wisconsin alone had a filing fee of $3.5 million.

n/t

[pnwmom]

106. She could have spent the money she had designated for PA

that she knew she'd never have to spend. When her lawsuit got to the PA judge, he laughed her out of court. That was predictable since she filed after the original deadline and was outside the necessary margin; that's why she had to go to court.

What she did was bait and switch. She got people to donate millions of dollars to her under the pretense that the money would cover all three audits. Then, after that sum came in unexpectedly quickly, she said, thanks, but that only covers 1 audit. That's when it was clear this was a scam.

[scipan]

107. How could $2 million cover the WI $3.5 million filing fee, even if she pulled out of PA?

You said she only needed $2 mil for all three.

[pnwmom]

108. Her original website request was for $2.5, which would have covered almost all of that.

And she knew when she made that original request that she only intended it to cover PA -- but that's not how she pitched it to the desperate people who sent her checks. It was only after she got that amount that she admitted it would only cover PA.

And she also didn't make clear that the PA recount, even in the extremely unlikely event the PA judge approved it, couldn't prove anything -- because votes on machines with no paper trails cannot be recounted.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/11/24/why-are-people-giving-jill-stein-millions-of-dollars-for-an-election-recount/?utm_term=.a94a15053578

If the election were hacked, a recount couldn't prove it. Most of Pennsylvania voters use DRE (direct record electronic) machines, with no paper ballot whatsoever. In other races where those machines have been probed — like Virginia's 2005 attorney general contest — the recount has consisted of the machine results simply being scanned again. The lost/spoiled votes Palast has talked about are not part of that system. (Meanwhile, nearly every Michigan vote has a paper record.)

[EL34x4]

21. Plenty of us were calling this a shameless cash grab while it was taking place.

She gets to keep the money? Of course she does!

To be fair, she never had any intention of giving any of it back and made this perfectly clear while she was asking for donations.

People need to read the fine print.

[oberliner]

25. Yes indeed

We tried to tell people here what was going on, but they still gave her money.

[KittyWampus]

77. And yet no one has proven this WAS a "cash grab" and fact she did get recounts going in multiple

states disproves this attempt to smear that effort.

[uncle ray]

22. I'd rather she has money left than no attempt at recounts and left wondering what could have been.

[pnwmom]

26. Not me. Desperate Dems just helped to bankroll her 2020 campaign. n/t

[NCTraveler]

30. Her recount was a scam from the begining.

The manner in which she went about it has cemented in the minds of Americans that it was a fair election. What she did was horrid in every way.

[uponit7771]

36. +1

[oberliner]

24. She is a liar and a con artist, just like Trump

It is sad that so many Democrats gave her money, in spite of her active and aggressive campaign against Hillary Clinton.

[atreides1]

27. Just like Palin

Stein is a grifter , the only difference is that Stein is better educated and more eloquent!

[Starry Messenger]

28. I understand why people wanted to believe.

I hope this will be remembered next election though.

[NCTraveler]

29. She flat out scammed people.

And we have no idea of the countless millions she was directing toward other groups. People keep forgetting that. She was directing larger donors to other groups under the guise of the recount. As far as I can see, not one penny of those other funds were used for the recount. Not a f'ing penny.

[pnwmom]

31. I hadn't heard about that. But it sounds like something she'd do. n/t

[NCTraveler]

33. Her second plea on her website, on day two, she linked directly to two other groups.

She instructed people that the funds going to those groups would be used for the recount efforts and that larger donations could be given to them. The links stayed on her website for days.

[pnwmom]

37. Wow. I wonder if those donations had to be reported anywhere. n/t

[NCTraveler]

39. I took screen grabs of them from her website.

They can also be found online. I will try to remember to post them here when I'm done working.

[Glamrock]

35. Okay, so I get the anger at the green party.

What's the take away here? How do we get the green party peeps to vote Dem?

[pnwmom]

38. We can't. But maybe we can get purist-leaning Dems to think twice.

The Greens always do a lot of recruiting on this site in election years, and we need to be ready for them.

[Glamrock]

41. And, don't get me wrong I agree, but how?

I mean post after post of teeth gnashing about Stein getting 50,000 here and 35,000 there seems like a waste of time. Personally, I'm more concerned about a million not voting here and a couple million not voting there. Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you are wrong. I just have more vitriol directed against those who didn't participate in their democracy than those who did....

[pnwmom]

42. I have enough vitriol left in me to include her, too. Maybe I'd feel differently

if she'd give the $4 million back to the desperate people who sent it to her, instead of using it to fund her next campaign against a Democrat.

[Glamrock]

48. Yeah I get it

I'm using allof my vitriol against those who are, in the parlance of our times (sorry, watched The Big Lebowski last nite), fucking me. I'll direct what's left at the enablers after we crush those who want to actively hurt us. My opinion is we need to be focused on the threat at hand, which isthe GOP.

[KittyWampus]

75. And yet the OP is about smearing Stein regarding donations for the recount.

And twists the issue.

It this thread about voting 3rd party or is it about the TITLE which uses Stein getting money for the recounts as a way to smear that effort.

It's totally dishonest.

Stein didn't stop the multiple recounts. That's a fact.

And donators can almost certainly get their donation back.

[NCTraveler]

40. At what point do we hold them responsible for their own vote.

They helped to secure a Trump Presidency. Additionally, a lot of it is not anger at the GP. It's anger at the grafter Stein who has taken over and destroyed the GP. Her shady recount effort helped to cement in the minds of the American people that this election was on the up and up. That is what she has done. How do you get people who voted for such a transparent scam artist to vote another way. I sure as hell don't want anyone in our party to start acting like Stein, their choice.

[pnwmom]

43. Yes -- that's exactly what she did. Because those recounts didn't turn up anything,

she distracted from the real problems -- all the states that have machines with no paper trails, and all the states that engaged in active voter suppression.

[NCTraveler]

46. +1 nt

[Glamrock]

45. Again, not saying you're wrong....

But, "How do you get people who voted for such a transparent scam artist to vote another way." This applies to million upon millions of people who voted for Trump as opposed to thousands who voted for Stein. Not trying to be insulting here, but it seems this furious anger at the green party is counterproductive. I've never voted green. I'm really not defending them. But, these posts might be more valuable if they discussed how to get the green party voters over to the Democratic party as opposed to, you know, "goddamned greens cost us the election." We need to be focusing on the majority, IMO, as opposed to the fringe left.

[NCTraveler]

47. Please show me my "furious anger at the GP".

I also don't recall saying they lost us the election.

Calling willful idiots, willful idiots, is not "furious anger."

You just went head to head with the meaning of a fallacy.

[Glamrock]

49. Okay, you didn't personally say that

Never said you did. Plenty of posts here that have. I'm here every day. But, I appreciate the insult for asking a question....

[NCTraveler]

67. I don't speak for the community. Only myself.

No insult can be found in my reply to you.

[truebluegreen]

44. Damn, I wish I could keep it all straight:

Jill Stein, Comey, the Russians, BernieBros, the media, voter suppression, racists, misogynists, bigoted yahoos...I'm sure there are more people to blame although somehow one name gets mentioned.

And it seems always always the greatest hatred is reserved for the left. Just like it was the fault of Nader's 97,000 voters in Florida, not the 200,000+ Democrats who crossed over and voted for Bush.

Tell me, pnwmom, what makes you think any of Jill Stein's voters would have chosen Hillary Clinton if Stein hadn't been in the race? They were disaffected enough to vote for Stein even in the face of Trump: what makes you think Hillary would have gotten their votes? Turnout was down in this election because people didn't like the choices. But still, somehow, it is Stein's Fault. It's very comforting I'm sure.

[orwell]

52. My brother and his wife...

...would have voted for Hillary but they voted for Stein instead because they liked her better than Clinton but hated Drumpf.

They told me this before the election. They also told me that if she wasn't running they would vote for Hillary.

They now regret their decision to vote her but it's "too late."

They will never vote Green again because of this.

[Glamrock]

54. Well, at least they learned their lesson.

There's two more we can count on in 2020 (or 2018. I don't know how politically active they are...) Hopefully, they aren't the only two. Just wish we hadn't nominated someone who was so unpopular.

[LisaL]

64. They are assuming they can ever vote again.

They got nothing out of voting for green party except Trump for president. And now they can watch the environment being destroyed.

[truebluegreen]

65. Just out of curiosity, where do they live?

[sweetloukillbot]

91. 9/11 taught me the same lesson

And I still regret it. Protest votes are meaningless.

[MrPurple]

104. If they live in a swing state, they were really stupid

It doesn't really matter if they live in Cali or Mass, but if they live in a swing state and don't know what happened with Nader in 2000, then that was a really uneducated thing to do.

[CajunBlazer]

123. That why it is said of Third Party Candidates:

Third Parties are like bees, when they sting, they die.

[oberliner]

53. Democrats gave her a lot of money under false pretenses

That is the part that is really annoying. She conned Democrats into giving her money that she is going to use to run against Democrats.

[truebluegreen]

61. Hillary endorsed the effort iirc.

And Democrats did a lot of things in this election, including voting for Trump and not voting. I get annoyed at the hippie--or Green--punching.

[LisaL]

63. Hillary didn't endorse the effort.

[truebluegreen]

69. Oh sorry--it was only her campaign team.

http://www.newsweek.com/hillary-clinton-team-backs-recount-effort-wisconsin-525474

[LisaL]

76. Big deal. After Stein started the effort, Hillary's team was going to participate

to ensure the recount is accurate. As far as I can tell, they didn't actually do much if anything about the recount.
It was obvious the recount was completely futile (as I pointed out at the time) yet people were donating a lot of money because they were desperate.

[truebluegreen]

94. Yeah, words mean nothing. As ever.

[LisaL]

62. People here we claiming they were happy to do it, even though some of us tried to warn them.

[QC]

74. Many of our Sensible Pragmatic Centrists here really, really, really

do not like progressives.

Interestingly, some of them spend far more time heaping scorn and indignation on progressives than on Republicans.

[pnwmom]

83. Hillary is not a centrist and neither were her supporters here.

And Jill Stein is a progressive in words only. Her actions, like those of Ralph Nader, only help the Rethugs.

[pnwmom]

139. That graph is a crock, but I'm not surprised that a Green advocate would

be pushing it here, trueblueGREEN.

I guess you didn't include a link because you didn't want anyone here to see that that site actually prefers TRUMP over Hillary. Way to go, trueblueGREEN!

https://www.politicalcompass.org/counterpoint-20161110

In Political Compass terms, the US has finished up with a socially reactionary anti-establishment president. It might well have had a socially progressive anti-establishment one. The inescapable conclusion is that the Democratic Party hierarchy preferred Clinton to lose than Sanders to win.

SNIP

Trump is an old-fashioned isolationist and protectionist. As alarming as the thought of his impulsive finger on the nuclear button may be, he will diffuse the escalating tensions with Russia, and the attempts to portray Putin as the new Saddam. he will also hopefully fulfil his promise to tear up the planned Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement, which many nations are being dragged into. Far from being merely about free trade, the TPPA gives corporations unprecedented and dangerous engagement in many aspects of governance.

Most importantly, Trump’s every move will be analysed and criticised not only by the Democrats, but also by large chunks of his own party. This is a healthier situation than during the previous eight years, when a Democratic president delivered a largely Republican programme while his party remained shamefully silent. A socially reactionary and highly unpredictable new president gratefully inherits the Obama administration’s provisions for illegal detentions without charges, domestic spying of citizens and extrajudicial assassinations — precedents that would be damned as quasi-fascist if Trump had initiated them.

___________________________________

By contrast with your fav site, ontheissues.org not only rates Hillary as a "hard core liberal" -- but includes detailed information on the issues that they reviewed in giving her that rating.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Hillary_Clinton.htm

International Issues Domestic Issues Economic Issues Social Issues


Foreign Policy Gun Control Budget & Economy Education
Homeland Security Crime Government Reform Civil Rights
War & Peace Drugs Tax Reform Abortion
Free Trade Health Care Social Security Families & Children
Immigration Technology Corporations Welfare & Poverty
Energy & Oil Environment Jobs Principles & Values

Signature sponsorships (key bills introduced by Hillary Clinton)

[truebluegreen]

137. I am shocked

that you didn't reply to my above post in this thread.

But, in pursuit of further knowledge, for both of us: go to this website and take the test (10 minutes iirc). I would be very interested to know your result. Maybe you would be too.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

[pnwmom]

140. I'm not going to take the test of this nutty site. See post 139. n/t

[Blue_true]

110. You are using the well worn argument that

Nader apologists use about the Nader votes in Florida. We will always have conservative Democrats that vote for republicans, we have had that since FDR. But when people claim they are acute environmentalists and supremely anti war and they chose to allow the most anti environment and war favoring candidate to win.

[truebluegreen]

129. Well-worn argument vs zombie lie

Guess which one wins.

[SticksnStones]

50. The caliber of Jill Stein's character will be sealed as we watch how the money is spent.

Follow the money. It's always about the money.

[ismnotwasm]

51. Of course she does

Not one bit surprised

[Hokie]

55. The date of the end of the period in the report is 11/28/2016

Therefore, there might be some recount expenses incurred after that date not included. That said I did not give money for the recount because I never trusted Stein and I knew the recount was a futile effort.

[LisaL]

68. Same here.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

56. Hucksters gotta huck

[catbyte]

57. Wow, she's right up there with that "I am not a witch" scammer. WTF is her name?

[Uponthegears]

66. There is a danger

in comparing 3rd party vote totals with margin of victory/defeat and declaring the former to be the cause of the latter.

When the margins of defeat/victory are as small as they were in the last election (particularly in Michigan and Wisconsin), and much more so when they are as small as they were in the GE-determinative outcome in in Florida in 2000 (less than 1000), any factor which suppressed Democratic turnout in an amount greater than these (small) margins is an INDEPENDENT (i.e., would have changed the outcome even if everything else would have stayed the same) cause of our defeat and accordingly is EQUALLY RESPONSIBLE for that defeat.

I mention this because it has become almost as de rigueur among a certain faction of the Democratic Party to "blame the left" for the outcome in 2016 as it was in 2000, when, in both instances, actions by the "middle" of the party deprived our candidate of the support of identifiable voters in a number sufficient to overcome these (small) margins.

Prior to the 2000 election, Florida used ChoicePoint to purge thousands and thousands of mostly black convicted felons from Florida voter rolls, even though their voting rights had been automatically restored upon their release from prison and/or when their parole ended under the laws of the states where they were convicted. I was among a number of attorneys who were contacted by these men to try to get them back on the rolls before the election. Because they were poor, because they were powerless, and because they were, after all, felons, it became clear that this effort was going to require both financial help and mainstream support from the national party. They were turned away. We were told by told by party officials that there was no way that, after the "Willie Horton" ads in 1988, the Democratic Party was going to make it possible for Republicans to make a black convicted felon the image of the party. Even the most cautious estimates place the number of Democratic votes lost in Florida close to 10,000.

A similar thing happened this election. CrossCheck (which is ChoicePoint on steroids) purged thousands upon thousands of convicted felons from the voter rolls in key states. Aside from one or two passing comments about the handful of "non-Willie Horton" voters who got swept up in this deliberate assault on the voting rights of a group of primarily young black men (who had already been targeted by the war on drugs) the party kept silent. In fact, when Governor Terry McAuliffe (D.Va.) took the extraordinary step of using his pardon power to restore the voting rights of convicted felons in Virginia, the national party kept him at arms length even as he was being eviscerated by the right.

People who regularly claim we should support moderate party leadership because "the left cost us the last election" should remember that the same "comparison of lost voters v. margin of victory/defeat" analysis which is being used to place the "blame" for the last election (and the election of 2000) on the left could easily be used to shift that blame back on moderates.

That being said, there are still MORE than enough reasons to despise Stein voters. The Green Party is, and always has been, a complete fraud. People who fall for their BS are either painfully naïve or painfully lacking in the very concern for their fellow citizens of the world whom they claim to care so much about. Socialism and social justice SHOULD be inextricably intertwined (Quick example, how, other than socialism, does the $60 trillion of wealth stolen from people of color during the 400 years of North American slavery and the 150+ years of institutional racism that has followed ever get returned to the people who created it?). Unfortunately, in "the Greens'" deceitful and/or feeble hands, socialism has become nothing but a tool to achieve further benefits for an already-privileged class.

I completely agree that "the Greens" are not our friends. I agree that the millions they collected for recount efforts were not donated to help their overall cause and should be distributed to folks fighting Trump. AND I add that they are traitors to the cause of socialism who think that alliance to Russia and beasts like Putin somehow substitutes for standing with the oppressed. It's just that they aren't the reason we lost any more than was our failure to stand up for the most oppressed individuals among the most oppressed demographic group in our party.

[truebluegreen]

70. Why are you repeating Trump's talking points?

http://www.newsweek.com/hillary-clinton-team-backs-recount-effort-wisconsin-525474

“This is a scam by the Green Party for an election that has already been conceded, and the results of this election should be respected instead of being challenged and abused, which is exactly what Jill Stein is doing," Trump said.

[pnwmom]

73. He stole my talking point. I recognized this as a scam before he said that.

First she put up her web page saying that she needed $2.5 million to do the three recounts. (Without mentioning that she'd already missed the deadline for PA.)

That money came in very quickly, and suddenly it was bait and switch -- she said she really needed another couple million so she could do the second recount. And then she wanted more for the third.

And it turns out that she was able to keep the $2 million for PA -- because there had never been more than a tiny chance that a judge would agree to extend the deadline for her. And then she got refunds on the other partial recounts. But she was raising money up till the bitter end, as if she was going to be spending it all on the recounts.

[truebluegreen]

132. I guess the point is the two of you agree,

no matter who got there first. Congratulations.

[pnwmom]

134. If DT said today was Monday, apparently you would feel obligated to disagree.

Twice a day even a broken clock is correct.

[truebluegreen]

135. Nope, I wouldn't.

Nice straw man though.

[pnwmom]

136. Just demonstrating your logic. And maybe you should look up

the term "straw man" so you'll use it correctly next time.

You sought to disparage me because I agreed with something correct that DT had said. By that reasoning, no one should agree with anything DT said, even if it was correct -- like saying today is Monday.

That is not a straw man argument. It is basic logic.

(But I'm not surprised that a self-proclaimed "green" would be objecting to any criticism of Jill Stein.)

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/169/Strawman-Fallacy

[beachbum bob]

71. stein voters really didn't mind a trump victory and stein is more than happy to keep the money

we all we be paying the price of those who didn;t vote and 3rd party voters would could care less in placing REAL EVIL in the whitehouse....


and they HAVE THE MOST TO LOSE

[KittyWampus]

72. Why do you twist the issue by including Stein's votes? That has NOTHING to do with the recount.

#1. People can demand their money back
#2. She actually DID the recount. She actually HAS contacts with people fighting against BBV while Clinton doesn't. It's not Stein's

[pnwmom]

81. No, she didn't. No recount occurred in PA, so she kept the $2 mil she had raised

for PA. And she only got partial recounts in the other two states, so they refunded her another two million.

So she went from having $58K left at the end of the election to having $4 million. All because of the recounts that partially happened.

Stein's votes don't "twist" the issue; they just provide context. Thanks to the donations of progressives, she now has $4 million in the bank to use to attack the next Dem in 2010 -- helping the next Rethug, as the Green party seems to want to do.

[Tatiana]

78. What's really sad is that Democrats were so desperate for SOMEONE to fight this stolen election

that they gave $$$ to someone who wasn't to be trusted with anything.

Hillary Clinton had the standing and Hillary Clinton's campaign should have been mounting the direct challenge to question the election results. At least Al Gore took it all the way to the Supreme Court.

Very disappointed in the leadership surrounding Clinton's campaign. If I didn't know better, I'd say some of them directly sabotaged her. That being said, she should have exercised better leadership and asked for recounts herself.

If Stein scammed people, it was because Democrats conceded the space for her to fill a void. Democrats were desperate for someone, to stand up to the Republican thugs.

[LisaL]

80. Gore lost by less than a 1,000 (if he lost at all).

Across three states, the margin was too large and there was no hope. Or reason for Hillary to challenge the outcome.

[Tatiana]

87. I appreciate your response. Al Gore didn't lose. Jeb rigged the Florida results for his brother.

There were several voting irregularities in the 2016 election. I don't think the Michigan results were at all close to being accurate.

I think this election was stolen in more ways than one.

[LisaL]

90. There was so many issues with FL vote. Hanging chads, butterfly ballots.

[pnwmom]

82. Hillary has always been a realist, and she doesn't take advantage of desperate people. n/t

[Qanisqineq]

84. How are all these people eating with Putin?

Does he often throw grand dinners and invite people from all over the world? Somehow I imagined he would be a little less accessible.

[pnwmom]

85. This was a gala for RT, the Russian propaganda network. n/t

[BlancheSplanchnik]

86. Not knowing much about her,

I was as happy as a drowning woman thrown a life raft.

Apparently it wasn't a life raft, it was a piggy bank.

[Cha]

120. Aloha, Blanche.. this is stein in a nut shell...

"US Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein has said that her supporters should "absolutely not" vote for Hillary Clinton to stop a Donald Trump presidency, even in a swing state.

In an interview with Mehdi Hasan, host of Al Jazeera's Upfront, Stein said that Clinton "is not different enough" from the New York real estate businessman, to enable her or the Democratic Party "to save your job, save your life, or save the planet."

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/09/jill-stein-hillary-trump-presidency-160928210338543.html

she's part owner of this shit storm.

[lapucelle]

88. If you donated to Stein for the recount, call your credit card company for a charge back refund.

My daughter did just that when she realized she had been scammed out of her money by Stein. Tell your credit card company that the charge was a donation solicited under false pretenses.

[NWCorona]

93. Charge backs would be an excellent way to get some recourse

I donated with a prepaid visa. There's no way I'd give out my real CC info!

[nycbos]

89. I am SHOCKED SHOCKED to find gambling going on here.

[NWCorona]

92. I lost all respect for Jill when she pulled this stunt.

That said, I did donate to the recount because I didn't want to look back and wish that we did do something as I don't think the vote was fair. I did go in with open eyes and had my doubts.

[Gothmog]

95. Stein helped get trump elected and then scammed donors with recounts

[BainsBane]

97. She's a great con artist

Not only did she net millions of dollars, many of them continue up to defend her, despite being bilked out if money they doubtless need that money more more than she.

She's not the first and won't be the last.

[Barack_America]

98. Makes me wish even more that Dems had been willing to lead the charge.

But they were weak and another party took advantage...again.

[BainsBane]

99. And found no difference in results

Which is why the Democrats didn't challenge the elections.

Are you suggesting the Dem party should have donned ordinary Americans out of millions like Stein did?

[liquid diamond]

101. Considering how evenly divided this country is

all it takes is one asshole like her to fuck up an election. That must be one hell of an ego boost to wield that kind of power. Fuck Stein and anybody who cast a ballot for her. I hope you suffer the most under Trump's reign of terror.

[braddy]

102. Does the Green party have any part in this?

[JI7]

117. she was the green party candidate, so yes, the entire party is about defeating democrats

[braddy]

121. Well, so far everyone talks only about Jill Stein, rather than the Green party itself, as though

this is all about an individual person, a single named individual.

[Equinox Moon]

103. My friend supports Jill Stein, and if Jill had not been on the ballot,

she would not have voted for Hillary. To assume that the Stein voters would have voted for Hillary is not correct thinking.

[Blue_true]

112. Sorry, but I hope Trump trashes the causes

That you friend value. That is the only way the no difference voters will learn. Until they learn, good people will be fighting desperately to limit the damage that Trump does.

[Equinox Moon]

113. She is very extreme. I was trying to understand her just last night.

She was a Bernie or bust person. She is preferring this current chaos, although very difficult. She thinks America needs a re-set explaining that people are more active and motivated politically now then we were during the Obama years. I still love her.

[CajunBlazer]

124. Oh, I get it...

...she's an idiot.

[Cha]

119. Yes it is.. too bad about your friend enabling a Climate Change Denier in the WH

Whether she was going to vote for Hillary or not.. stein lied to fans and help enable this planetary shit storm right now.

snip//

"US Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein has said that her supporters should "absolutely not" vote for Hillary Clinton to stop a Donald Trump presidency, even in a swing state.

In an interview with Mehdi Hasan, host of Al Jazeera's Upfront, Stein said that Clinton "is not different enough" from the New York real estate businessman, to enable her or the Democratic Party "to save your job, save your life, or save the planet."

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/09/jill-stein-hillary-trump-presidency-160928210338543.html

[Equinox Moon]

122. Her stance is confusing to me.

I plan on talking with her again today to try to understand. She is a stanch environmentalist and progressive. She was a Dem delegate to the state convention working hard for Bernie.

She refused to go to the Women's March, which shocked me.

I'm just saying in my original comment that I know someone that would not have voted for Hillary if her two choices had been Hillary or Trump. I don't defend it, nor do I don't understand it. But it is very real this is what is happening for some people. She is fed-up with how things are going in this country and this is how she is responding. I just wanted to share her story.

[bettyellen]

138. The staunchest BOBs dislike feminists because they assume they are for HRC and voting "with

Their vaginas"
Have run into this. They suck.

[pbmus]

105. All leftover monies donated to voter reforms or. returned...??

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/jill-steins-recount-fundraising-what-happens-to-leftover-money/

[JI7]

118. the money will go towards helping defeat democrats in future elections

and helping republicans win.

[pnwmom]

126. Exactly. Dems just helped fund her next campaign against a Dem. n/t

[Blue_Tires]

125. Tried to tell folks...

[FreeStateDemocrat]

133. The money should be donated to the ACLU and it should be done immediately!!!

[oberliner]

141. Jill Stein's Recount Cash Pays for Her Russia Legal Defense

Money that Jill Stein raised to recount votes in 2016 swing states is being used by her campaign to pay for legal bills stemming from the investigation of Russian interference in the last presidential election.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/jill-steins-recount-cash-pays-for-her-russia-legal-defense?ref=home

[pnwmom]

142. Oh. Wow. Thanks, oberliner. n/t

[oberliner]

143. A lot of us could see this coming

Sad to see how she took advantage of so many.