Is dressage a form of animal cruelty?

[hedgehog]

[Scout]

1. it depends on the trainer and the training methods used. n/t

[hlthe2b]

2. being around the Romneys likely is, regardless of activity.

I wonder if they've found a big enough vehicle to strap the poor horse on the top?

[JHB]

7. They don't need to. They have George W. Bush keep it company in the trailer...

......each fears the other, in a sort of miniature Mutually Assured Destruction arrangement.

The real question is who they have muck out the trailer after the trip, considering what hours of nervous tension does for two digestive tracts.

On a completely unrelated note, prospective cabinet appointees are lining up, with shovels, for some reason.

[slackmaster]

4. Only if the horse isn't into it

[Mira]

16. Good God. Don't put a mirror in front of Heidi Junior

she may lose it and attack the Original.

[Tsiyu]

5. No

horse racing, steeplechasing and gaited horse competitions may be cruel, but dressage is just teaching the horse to dance with the human.

It takes many years of slow practice. If someone rushes the process, uses severe bits, drugs etc., they are the exception. But then I haven't been to any shows in a long time.

Is Anne Romney cruel to her horse? Probably.

[Dalai_1]

9. Rollkur technique

has been banned..the technique is cruel and continues to be used by some
riders..there are videos showing this method on youtube

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollkur

Link below is an example of dressage with training that was NOT trained
using Rollkur

[Vanje]

10. I think thats the best ride I've ever seen.

Thanks for showing it.

[Mira]

15. What a find! Thank you for this post

and showing us dressage at its best. All the other questions aside, I do not have knowledge about horses and what it takes to train them, I do see a happy horse here and an ecstatic rider, both bringing something to the experience that seems close to unprecedented.
As a child I lived in Vienna-Austria, and have knowledge and memory of the beauty of dressage.

Thanks again, and welcome to DU. We're a friendly bunch, mostly, and your presence is appreciated.

[Dalai_1]

24. Thank You Mira

for the warm welcome! I am glad to share the video.I found it a few years ago
and began reading about dressage...this video continues to be the one I enjoy
the most...how wonderful that you were able to see it in Vienna-Austria!

[1monster]

19. Looks dreadfully hard on the knees... What kind of long term damage is done

having the horses bounce on their knees like that?

[magical thyme]

22. none

Last edited Tue Jun 26, 2012, 02:37 PM - Edit history (1)

Dressage causes the horse to shift more weight to the rear end, relieving their knees and front legs of excess stress.

I need to download and watch the video, but if the horse is "snapping" his knees, as in lifting them higher and throwing his front legs out a bit, that is because there is less weight on them.

edited to add: Oh, ok. Blu Hors Matine -- yes, she is lovely and that was a lovely, lovely ride. That is what dressage is supposed to be.

Sadly, she broke her leg in her paddock in 2010 and had to be put down. She had not competed since an accident several years earlier (I think she fell of the ramp unloading from her trailer and had an injury. For some reason they had them unloading onto pavement or freshly tarred driveway.)

[1monster]

34. Read post 26... and draw your own conclusions.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=859102

[magical thyme]

35. my conclusion remains the same

Matine had been retired from competition 3 years earlier, after she was injured falling off a loading ramp onto a paved driveway. She was completely retired in 2009.

History and experience (not just mine. everybody who rides dressage) shows that dressage horses are more prone to hind end injuries due togreater wear and tear on the hind end.

She had an accident in her paddock in January. That, sadly, happens. And it happens all too often with horses retired from jobs that had them extremely fit and focussed, and who now have too much energy and insufficient outlet for it.

She could just as easily have broken another joint on a different leg. It's all a matter of slipping and landing the wrong way. Furthermore, it was January, so she could have hit a patch of ice and gone down. (I even saw a horse hit ice being walked across level ground and end up on his back with all 4 in the air.)

Oftentimes with horses injuries happen to a stronger leg because they get into a habit of relying more on the stronger side than the weaker side, they defend with the stronger side. So it gets more wear and tear, making it more susceptible, and they rely on it more if they get into trouble, so it's "out there" so to speak.

[Dalai_1]

26. The Horse in the Video

Blue Horse Matine'...had to be put down after retirement due to
"breaking her offside foreleg at the knee"....

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2010/01/134.shtml

[magical thyme]

41. she was retired after falling from a ramp onto paved driveway

The broken leg happened in an accident in a (possibly icy) paddock in January several years after her retirement.

That was a catastrophic accident which could have involved any leg or joint, depending on how she slipped and fell. Sadly horses are prone to them, regardless of what kind of work they do or don't do.

[kestrel91316]

51. Less than any sort of running.

[magical thyme]

49. Rollkur technique is not classical dressage

Competition and movement beyond the baroque breeds (which classical dressage was developed around) has fostered modern tools and techniques that aren't always in keeping with traditional goals and purposes. They each need to be evaluated individually and permitted or banned based on whether they are in keeping with the fundamental goal of dressage.

I find it interesting that rollkur was possibly developed or at least was promoted within the Dutch school, since the early Dutch warmbloods that were imported had a reputation for being tough-minded. Where there's smoke, there's fire...I wonder if that tough-mindedness is what led to it's development. I am glad to read it is banned. Unfortunately, there will always be people who will cheat to win.

On the other hand, the Germans invented a bit with a 3rd joint (actually an improvement on the French link bit) that prevents riders from accidentally pinching a horse's jaws in the snaffle bit they are initially trained in. That's something that can happen totally by accident if a spooky young horse suddenly shies or bolts. That bit (I forget its name) is much milder and safer for the horse than the traditional snaffle bit.

As a further improvement, I've started my very sensitive arabian mare in a "happy mouth" bit which is modeled after the German bit, but has the mouthpiece coated in plastic. It is very, very gentle and she is not bothered by contact with the bit in the least, to the point where she had no problem breaking a pair of side reins.

Since she was so nervous with the slight restriction imposed by the side reins (any perceived restriction makes her a little fearful) I switched to another modern invention, the vienna reins. They enable the horse to experiment with bit contact, yet allow full freedom of head movement up and down. Again, a softer tool than the traditional that leads to a positive result. I actually first learned of vienna reins watching a training video of an oberbereiter of the Spanish Riding School made at his private farm working with warmbloods. At the Spanish Riding School they use only traditional side reins, but at his own farm with a different breed, he uses a modified tool

[Puzzledtraveller]

12. Do you really believe Ann Romney is cruel to her horse?

Or do you just feel you have to say that? Honest question.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

23. Why not? They were sued (and settled) for selling a horse that was pumped so full of drugs...

... the buyer claimed fraud.

How does that sound to you?

She apparently rode in a car with a dog strapped to the roof.

How does that sound to you?

She married, and apparently loves, a man who is a known gay-basher and creepy cop impersonator.

How does that sound to you?

[Pab Sungenis]

32. If you want to know how a person will treat an animal

look at how they treat other humans.

I know it's usually said the other way around, but this time I think the converse applies.

[notadmblnd]

46. I know you are not asking me, but I think both romneys are cruel people.

We know Mitt is. His tying dog to roof of car, cutting the hair of classmate he felt didn't conform. His rude remarks "I like to fire people", "did you get them cookies from 711". His dressing up as cops or firemen and pulling pranks, slamming his kids faces in plates of butter are just a few examples of his cruelity. If his wife has been with him all those years and tolerated it or encouraged it, then afaic, she is not much different.

[magical thyme]

6. I've responded to this insinuation elsewhere. Copy below

First: what the Romney's were involved with -- a horse drugged to mask symptoms -- is grounds for banning from recognized competition and is not in any way, shape or form appropriate to *any* horse discipline, least of all dressage.


My answer to your question here: the purpose of dressage (which is just another word for education) is to create harmony between horse and rider, i.e. to replace abuse with mutual understanding and good communication. I am a lifelong horsewoman, and dressage has been my passion for nearly 50 years.

The historical center of classical dressage training, The Spanish Riding School of Vienna, opens every training session to the public, in front of a full audience. There is no beating, no abuse, not even raising of voice, whatsoever. The arena is silent; trainers and the audience speak in whispers. The young horses *are* outnumbered with 2 trainers to 1 young horse, but that is as much a practical and safety matter as anything, with a dozen or more young stallions learning the basics in close quarters. (I even saw one young horse escape his trainer in the crowded arena! Everything was handled quickly, quietly and calmly...with the other trainers either stopping in place, and adjacent trainers surrounding his horse so he couldn't run loose, which cold have resulted in serious injury to both horses and trainers. It was so quick and quiet I almost missed it, and most of the audience did!)

Do some dressage riders and trainers beat their horses? Yes. Just as with any other horse discipline (western, hunt seat, saddleseat, driving, not to mention racing. haven't you noticed them hitting the horses at the end of each race, trying to get more speed?). Not to mention people beating their dogs, children, spouses, etc.

Are horse people "tough?" Yes, you have to be. Handling horses is not for the feint of heart. There are times when you must make yourself "bigger" than whatever has your horse's attention at the time, for safety's sake.

To put things a little in perspective, if you watch a herd of horses interact, they discipline their young and establish the herd pecking order through nips, bites and kicks. That is language they learn as foals, grow up with and understand.

Also, a 1,000 pound horse kicking another 1,000 pound horse is one thing (but at point blank with full force, can break the other horse's bones). A 1,000 pound horse kicking a 150 pound person is a different thing (can easily break bones). A 150 pound person hitting a 1,000 pound horse is a very different thing (full force with a crop can raise a welt, but not do any real injury except to the psyche. full force with your hand will hurt your hand more than the horse).

Some times a young horse can get frightened and/or out of control, very quickly. However, any hitting *should* be disciplinary, and should not result in injury, or welts, or pain. Just an attention-getting, wake up call, for safety. Say a horse stands on your foot; I promise you will not sweetly ask the horse to move over. You will do what is necessary to free your foot before it's totally squashed. It usually involves yelling and smacking the horse (which makes a lot of noise and hurts your hand, but doesn't hurt the horse).

Unfortunately, there are those who don't get that and do hit for the sake of hitting, hit because they don't know how to guide or teach, hit until they raise welts. That is true in any discipline. They may or may not call themselves dressage trainers, but they are not trainers. They are abusers.

[hedgehog]

8. Thank you for a careful reply to what may

have been an inflammatory question! I apologize for not thinking through what really bothered me. Why would Ann's horse need so many pain killers? Clearly, her horses are victims of abuse!

[magical thyme]

11. Anne's horse had a problem with his coffin bone

(major hoof bone) which showed up on x-ray when she first bought him. The vet at the time said he didn't expect it to be an issue.

From what I read, they had him on anti-inflammatories through his training and competition life to prevent problems from developing. Over time, his performance in became erratic and began to deteriorate and his competition scores declined. That is when Anne decided to sell him.

That, to me, is abuse. Anne certainly knew her horse was unsound and knew he was on drugs, although my guess is she had no idea of the type or extent of the drugging, not to mention the risks involved (all 4 drugs slow the heart rate and depress respiration).

In any event, a horse should not need to be drugged on a regular basis to do a job, period. On occasion it can be helpful to use either a painkiller (if exercise will help recovery) or a tranquilizer (if a horse has been stall bound for an extended period, to prevent re-injury or further injury due to excess exuberance) temporarily while rehabbing.

But this was not that kind of situation. The horse's performance was deteriorating means he was suffering increasing pain and injury. He should have been retired, either to pasture or light trail riding. The nature, not to mention character, of the pain killers, too, suggest severe pain.

The buyer was also a client of Ebeling and for a pre-purchase exam used the vet that Ebeling recommended. That vet listed 2 sedatives used for the x-rays (which are typically used in combination to keep the horse calm and still). During a pre-purchase of an expensive horse, the vet will typically take a blood sample for the buyer. The specimen is kept frozen in case a drugging dispute arises. In this case, a dispute arose and the buyer had toxicology tests run on the specimen, which showed 3 sedatives and one sedative/analgesic (pain killer) in the horse's system. Ebeling's vet says he knew nothing of the extra 2 drugs. Ebeling claims to know nothing of them either, but clearly one of them did and Ebeling was the one who stood to gain from the sale (while the vet stood to lose his reputation and possibly his license from his actions).

Anne was dropped from the case and Ebeling settled out of court.

[Egalitarian Thug]

13. No. But too many practitioners are.

If you're on about the Rmoney drugging case, that's not about cruelty so much as it's about fraud.

[jwirr]

14. Just curious - does this take a special breed of horse or can any riding horse learn to do that?

[magical thyme]

18. contrary to what some people might say, no, it does not

Although certain breeds are more competitive so if you want to show and win, it helps a lot to have those breeds.

Any horse with 3 clear, pure gaits (pure meaning an even 4-beat walk, 2-beat trot and 3-beat canter) can do dressage at some level. Not all horses can attain the highest levels of training. It takes a very athletic body and a good, sane mind to do the advanced degrees of collection and extension.

Baroque breeds (Lusitano, Andalusian and Lippizaner) excel at collection and airs above the ground, and are preferred for exhibition.

European warmbloods are preferred for competition.

[Vanje]

29. A friend of mine had an appaloosa trained to very high level

...and was competitive.

The horse had a good confirmation, and some thoroughbred in its genes.

[Larkspur]

36. Cool! That Appaloosa probably had lots of Arabian genes

The Arabian has a supple neck.

Andalusians, Lippizaners, and Thoroughbreds can trace their lineage back to Arabians.

Appaloosas were bred by the Nez Perce but their origin stock was from the horses that the Spanish brought over, which was mostly Andalusians. After the Nez Perce were defeated and captured by the US Army, their Appaloosas were either slaughtered or given to white breeders. Eventually to help the Nez Perce survive, some Appaloosas were returned to them but they were suppose to breed them with draft horses. My Appaloosa most likely had Percheron in him. He had the wide barrel chest of a Percheron, the height (16.2 hands tall) and his trot resembled that of the Percherons.

I know that the Appaloosa Horse Society allows breeding of Appaloosas with Arabians as the only accepted cross-breed by the society. This, in their view, is to help restore and grow the Appaloosa bloodlines. Appaloosa-Arabian crossbreeds also seem to make good competition endurance riding horses.

[kestrel91316]

52. Ahhhh, so that explains why so many Appys are batshit crazy like Egyptian Arabians......

I prefer that Polish Arabian bloodline myself.........NOT insane.

[magical thyme]

38. yup. Appy's can be very good, I learned on t-breds

The US team used to be all thoroughbreds. Their gaits tend to be low and sweeping due to a longer forearm with shorter cannon bone. I think the most beautiful (to my eyes) piaffe I remember seeing was a thoroughbred. It wasn't the "stepping in place" of the baroque horse, or the bouncy piaffe of the warmblood, but just totally soft and fluid.

Morgans can also be very good at it, and the right type of arabians.

I think the Germans spotted -- and moved on -- a big marketing opportunity, first with the change from military to civilian, and then the "adult amateur" market. So at the international levels, it's mostly European warmbloods.

[KansDem]

33. Check out these Clydesdales!

I know, not as graceful but still, getting eight Clydesdales in sync is pretty impressive!

Hmmm...I wonder if this is Romney's wagon. I see a dog on top...

[jwirr]

55. Thank you for the info. I have always loved horses but had not known much about this sport.

[lame54]

17. It is if...

They travel from event to event on the top of a station wagon

[hedgehog]

20. An odd story from my husband's family -

about a cousin who sold a bad horse to my husband's great grandfather ( the horse almost killed the grandfather) around 1910 who went on to sell used cars......

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. My grandfather was killed by a bad horse.

He had been a cavalyman in the British army. Emigrated to Canada and took work as a horse breaker for the Canadian Army. Got on a bad one. Made it home alive but died shortly after. Left a wife with 6 kids. My mother was one of them. The two boys were adopted out in Canada. Grandmother and the girls came to California to steal jobs from American floor scrubbers.

[kestrel91316]

53. One of great-grandfathers had a farm in KS at the turn of the 20th century and died

3 days after being kicked in the head by a horse on the farm. It was a common thing back in the day, right up there with the pigs eating the unwary.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. My dressage cats object to the spurs. And, the dressage goldfish object to the saddles.

[roody]

27. yes

[FarCenter]

28. All captivity is cruelty to horses

They should be allowed to run free on the range.

[Scout]

30. LOL where the cattle ranchers complain about them

eating the grass and drinking the water ... then the BLM chases them down with helicopters and rounds 'em up and sells them.

[magical thyme]

39. which beats chasing them down with helicopters

and driving them off cliffs to die horribly, which also sometimes is done.

[PavePusher]

31. Ummm... sarcasm smilie? n/t

[Larkspur]

37. Except that the majority of horse breeds were created by humans

The Arab and Barb horses are original breeds but even they have been bred by humans over the thousands of years humans have learned to work with them instead of just eating them.

And there is not much of a free range left nowadays. Horses allowed to run wild, will eventually become a nuisance, like deer are in New England are or they will starve to death.

[magical thyme]

40. my neighbor tried to set my horses free on the "range"

when he was mad at me. I came home to find my pasture gate pushed wide open and wedged into the tall grasses.

My horses, smartly, were in their pasture. Actually, they'd retreated to the furthest corner from the gate. Apparently they preferred the safety of their pasture and barn, where they know they have food, water, shelter, and normally no pesky neighbors to annoy them.

[riderinthestorm]

44. The average lifespan of a wild horse is 8 years, usually worm infested

hungry and hunted. The average lifespan of the typical horse pet is probably closer to 25 years although I've known several that have made it into their late 30s. Their health and food needs are provided to ensure their comfort and optimum condition.

[kestrel91316]

54. They are a domesticated species, too far removed from wild living to be successful at it.

And in North America they are an imported exotic species that does too much damage to the areas where they run wild.

So, which do you advocate: turning all currently owned horses in North America loose into the environment? Or killing all of them to save them from the horror of living around and with humans?

I smell a PETA member. Ingrid, is that you?

[deaniac21]

42. It is in France.

[MissMarple]

43. Horses and horse competitions are a passion for many, many people.

Responsible owners take care of their animals. Irresponsible ones don't.

Making fun of dressage or suggesting that across the board it is harmful to horses is not a productive activity for democrats or progressives. I don't ride, but my parents grew up farming and ranching in Kansas. I now live in Colorado. I have many friends who do ride, an many who participate in horse events including dressage. We have the yearly National Western Stock Show in Denver every January. It is huge, huge event in the ranching world. Not all of these people are wealthy. Many are democrats or progressives.

[sweetapogee]

47. good post MissMarple

In a thread full of disinformation you say it right!

I don't have a problem with bashing pukes but not at the expense of truth. The amount of time, resources and dedication required to be competitive in dressage, where riding becomes an art form, where horse and rider become one does not lend itself to a lot of abuse on the part of the equestrian.

[MissMarple]

50. Thank you

When our so called pundits, even Jon Stewart, started making fun of this, I was dismayed.

[riderinthestorm]

45. Dressage moves are natural actions a horse does in the wild

Dressage training teaches the horse how to do them on cue and with a rider's direction.

The training can be cruel when the trainer/rider is cruel, just like in life. But the actual sport isn't cruel.

I don't have a lot to add to the already excellent comments made by so many others on this thread.

[hedgehog]

48. Again - thank you to all who answered this - i wanted to

get your attention, and I got it!

I think it is clear from the responses that the real problem seems to be that Ann Romney is to horses as mitt is to dogs!