'PROVE you're disabled': What council told wheelchair-bound spina bifida sufferer when she tried to

[Tony_FLADEM]

use toilets.

A woman in a wheelchair who asked for a key to the disabled toilets was horrified when council staff told her to provide proof that she really had spina bifida.

Nicola Parnell, 32, visited East Staffordshire Borough Council’s customer services office to buy access to the facilities at her local shopping centre in Burton-on-Trent.

But she said jobsworth staff demanded she produce evidence of her chronic illness - despite the fact she was in a wheelchair and her body is the size of a 10-year-old's.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2154856/Prove-youre-disabled-What-council-told-woman-wheelchair-asked-key-toilets.html#ixzz1yuxr2I1S

[Indydem]

1. While this seems terrible,

There are thousands of people who use handicap spaces without placards, or lie to sleezy doctors to get placards.

Asking EVERYONE to prove their disability is, unfortunately, a necessary evil to protect these services for the truly disabled.

[lapislzi]

4. Your post is a joke, right?

I can and do get medieval when I see the able-bodied copping the handicap parking spaces.

But...you're kidding about everyone "proving" they're disabled? Right? Right? I don't need to see your ostomy bag, and if you're in a wheelchair, I'll just take your word for it, thanks. If you are in a wheelchair for kicks, then you have other issues.

This is a rest room we're talking about.

[Indydem]

17. A letter from a doctor is too much?

Really? No one is asking her to do a dance and show her defective spine.

A little paperwork will solve the problem.

Easy peazy. Just show us some paperwork and everyone is happy.

The degenerates among us have ruined this kind of stuff for everyone. If no one abused the system, there would be no need for regulation, see?

[DearAbby]

31. THIS IS JUST TO USE THE BATHROOM FOR CHRIST SAKE

People with ostomies, look perfectly healthy. There are times they have need of a RESTROOM. Should they lift their shirt to show their stoma, or you allow a human being use of a toilet?

[Indydem]

93. No, it is NOT to use a restroom.

It is to receive a permanent KEY to a restroom.

[Aerows]

128. OMG.

A "special key to the bathroom". Unauthorized people using the special bathroom is the crime of the fucking century, even if they are in a wheelchair. Let me alert the department of homeland security, somebody got a key to use the handicapped bathroom, while in a damn wheelchair, and because we didn't verify that they couldn't get out of the damn wheelchair to use a regular stall, something nefarious must be going on!

[kestrel91316]

33. You are joking, right?

You must not have any family members or close friends with serious medical problems. Or your blue mask slipped a tad.

[lapislzi]

36. Really.

I might agree with you if the person appeared able-bodied. But someone in a wheelchair is obviously, you know, unable to walk.

This is policy stupidly applied.

[FrodosPet]

118. Correction

I might agree with you if the person appeared able-bodied. But someone in a wheelchair is probably, you know, unable to walk.

Or at least cannot walk very far.

The whole freaking world has turned into a "Cover Your Ass Watch What You Say Watch What You Do Watch Out For Even The Most Fleeting Thought" cluster *bleep*. I doubt whoever asked was malicious - they just don't want to be fired or disciplined.

[notadmblnd]

53. Papers please...... for a toilet?

that's what you are willing to live with? If so, we really are going back in time. To be specific pre WWII Nazi Germany.

[Oilwellian]

62. OMG

We have entered the Twilight Zone.

[RKP5637]

127. I really think so. In fact, everyday is becoming a Twilight Zone in this country,

"The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street."

[jillan]

64. Yes it is!! My daughter who has disabilities does not carry around her papers - for crying out loud

Shame on you!

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. I know you're serious

But damn...from an unseen disability I can almost get it...this is not easy to miss.

[GoneOffShore]

84. And I'll guess you're fine with the TSA as well.

[Jazzgirl]

87. I have a breathing disability.

I don't "have" to use the handicap bathroom but I do need a parking space or something really close because I can't breath very well. I agree. Nobody should have to go through that much, especially when it's pretty darn obvious. I never have any problems getting extra help at the airports. None of them. She shoulnd't have to prove the obvious.

[lapislzi]

88. Yes.

If you're sitting in a goddamn wheelchair and need to use the restroom, producing a doctor's letter documenting your particular disability is too much. Yes.

It is NOT too much to ask to request that disabled people produce a doctor's note when applying for parking permits. Because you are not with your vehicle when it is parked in the handicapped spot, a police officer would have no way of knowing whether the driver and/or passengers are legitimately disabled without said permit. That is why vehicles parked in handicapped spots who do not display permits are ticketed and towed. If the disabled person is right in front of you, what further proof do you need?

But, yes, since you asked, it is absurd to expect people to carry around "papers" in order to use the bathroom.

I would love to hear your evidence of the degenerates who pretend to be disabled in order to get a parking spot or a bathroom key.

[Indydem]

92. Do you even understand what this story is about?

It isn't about a request to use a handicap bathroom; its a request to receive a permanent key to a handicap bathroom.

[kentauros]

103. And why is that such a problem?

So what if a few individuals "abuse" that rule? I have no problem with the few people that might abuse any particular safety-net system or social regulations. It really doesn't add up to much in the way of money spent on them or inconvenience to others.

Where I do have a problem with "abusers of regulations" are corporate entities. They do far more harm to society than a few selfish individuals. Bend the rules for the actual human beings. Be a stickler for the rules for the corporations. Easy peasy!

[Aerows]

126. AMEN!

What the hell is wrong with people? Everyone suffers because someone, somewhere might get an unjustly deserved benefit? WTF? Good God. If someone is in a damn wheelchair, they are in it for a reason, and "special bathroom privileges" aren't it.

[kentauros]

129. I get the impression from all this

that there are some people that are simply bureaucrats, whether in reality or in their hearts. Compassion isn't part of the equation. Unless there's a form for that. Modern day Vogons.

Now, that isn't to say that all bureaucrats are heartless automatons. I suspect that plenty are savvy individuals with big hearts. They manage to be compassionate to those in need, even if the rules aren't followed to a 'T'. Rather, they game the system they know to be heartless and/or corrupt, and still manage to keep their jobs just like all the rest of the automatons.

[Marrah_G]

133. At some point common sense has to come into play

This isn't someone claiming an un-noticable disability.

[LeftishBrit]

97. She is using a wheelchair

If someone looked superficially OK, but had a chronic illness, I suppose it might be somewhat more reasonable to expect a doctor's letter - but if someone wasn't disabled, they'd be most unlikely to use a wheelchair!

Papers for everything, and no one believing anyone; it's getting more and more like '1984'.

[clang1]

115. Anyone can ride around in a wheelchair ....just stating a fact n/t

[jeff47]

130. Not everyone is the size of a 10-year-old as an adult while in a wheelchair. (nt)

[clang1]

114. Yep n/t

[Aerows]

123. If you are in a wheelchair

And need to use the blessed bathroom, then yes, demanding a damn note from the doctor so you can go IS a whole lot to ask.

Did you think this through for a second before you posted it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Clue one

Wheel chair

Clue two.

Size of person on wheelchair.

There is more, did you know under the ADA some folks do have disabilities that woud qualify them for placards and you'd think they're stealing/ misusing the placard?

Now here is one from cops I know...when they challenge a placard it's pretty easy to know who's legit and who's not, before they look at paperwork. The people who are legit, for example a Chrohns patient tat you'd never think qualifies...will tank them for asking. The frauds start screaming about rights.

FYI I coud qualify for one on several grounds and for a month of the year, it be nice.

[Indydem]

18. Placards are simple to get.

Lies are easy to fabricate.

All they are asking this woman to do is provide some documentation that she is actually disabled.

I get it, she's "obviously" disabled because she is in a wheelchair and is a small person.

But why should she not be subjected to the rules (provide paperwork)?

[Sgent]

28. Same here

I don't generally need / want a handicapped placard.

That being said, I suffer from a congenital (and progressively degenerating) bi-lateral knee condition that when it acts up, can easily put me on crutches for a week or two. Probably happens about 3-4 times a year, so for those times it would be nice.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Talk to your doctor

Like me you could qualify for a permanent one. I just chose not to...those times are challenging though

[Arkansas Granny]

34. This is too much like "show your papers, please". Without some sort of reasonable suspicion,

her request should have been granted. Does she need to travel with her medical records just so she can pee?

[ohheckyeah]

35. Why should she not be subjected?

Because anyone with half a brain would know she's disabled. This whole "one rule fits all" mentality that has taken over this country is IDIOTIC. We see it all over the place - no drugs at school, so they suspend a girl for having Midol. How stupid is that? Must we have documentation for everything just to go out in public? It takes "papers, please" to a whole new level of intrusiveness.

Placards aren't that easy to get - I had one after my back surgery and there were probably many people who didn't realize I had any physical limitations but I did.

[Stryder]

99. Just someone following the "rules"

Ya see when rules make sense,it's not that difficult to get people to follow them.
But if you keep pushing the envelope slowly and steadily enough people begin to think
(or what ever the opposite of think is) that because they're rules they must make sense.
And since you didn't make the rule,not your problem.That's somebody else's ass.
Rules keep you nice and safe.
Next thing ya know we got just the right kind of drones.
And it's been a wonder to watch,only took 1 generation.

[ohheckyeah]

107. I'm a great believer

in "rules were made to be broken."

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. They're simple to get?

That be news to my local DMV. Every time I've used a temp one I needed a form signed by my doctor.

Since mine were temp I paid a fee.

[demwing]

85. Lets assume she lied to get access to the solid gold toilet

I'd rather live in a world where that occasionally happened, than in a world where OBVIOUSLY disabled people were treated like creeps and made to show a Dr.'s note before the Toilet Monitor gave them access to the room where the cool kids crap.

[REP]

108. I enjoy explaining my disability to strangers

I have a parking placard. I carry the paperwork for it with me - which just identifies me as the holder of that particular placard. It doesn't list the cause of my disability. To date, no police officer has ever demanded that I prove that I'm using my own placard.

A few people, to a one of them driving much older, much ... plainer cars than I drive have felt compelled to demand that I explain my disability to them. None of these people have been law enforcement or doctors, let alone doctors specializing in my particular conditions, so in each case I have felt the most helpful thing was to invite these inquisitive souls to go fuck themselves.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. Seems like the wheelchair would be a pretty good giveaway that she's really handicapped

But maybe that's just me.

[Indydem]

16. I own a wheelchair.

If I was a degenerate, I could make a big show out of getting the wheelchair out of my car and rolling it up to the counter and getting my special restroom pass.

There are evil fucking people out there who will do anything for special treatment. Why is it such a big fucking deal to show some paperwork from a doctor that she is disabled?

The issue is, that, yes, she is clearly disabled, but the next person who rolls up in a wheelchair can say "she didn't have to show any proof! you are discriminating against me!"

Same equal standards for everyone whether you are a quadruple amputee or you have a bum leg.

[lunatica]

22. So now you think the handicapped should follow "Papers please" laws

Or do you believe everyone should follow laws that prove they're not the murderers, criminals, rapists, etc that seem to have overrun our society so badly that now everyone gets to pay the price.

Do you like laws imposed on every law abiding citizen because a very tiny minority so negligible that you can't even count them break rules and laws?

Really? Is that the kind of state you want to live in? You can count yourself among the "Papers Please" nazis. How proud you must be.

[Indydem]

26. Really?

"Do you like laws imposed on every law abiding citizen because a very tiny minority so negligible that you can't even count them break rules and laws? "

You've just described 99% of the laws we have in this country.

Gun laws, drug laws, drunk driving laws, building codes, speeding laws, hate crimes, and who knows what else.

The "tiny minority" fucks everything up, but their actions are so sensational that it screws up every good thing in the universe for the rest of us.

I don't like that there are terrible human beings out there, but there are. If every person with a fake disability gets a restroom pass, the truly disabled individuals who deserve the access and depend on it will have to wait or be denied access all together.

This represents a limited resource that is being safeguarded for those who truly need it.

[lunatica]

80. Yes. Really!

You remind me of the conservative mentality that thinks of ways to punish innocent people for the wrongdoing of a handful of abusers. So yes. really!

[Confusious]

105. Ha ha

you're funny.

A single company doing a fucked up thing in new York caused a change to a whole bunch of laws. You could say the same "should we allow the malfeasance of a few cause the rest to be treated like criminals?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire

Of course, I'm sure you will say that's different. What about laws that affect me? Should we allow the few dictate laws that affect me, when I've done no wrong?

Really, think about it for a while.

Oh, as for the woman, she should have gotten the key. I'm just laughing at what you said. It's on par with what a friend said to me once "who are we (as in everyone) to decide what is fair?"

That was a seriously fucked up statement also.

[lunatica]

131. You're comparing a fire that killed workers because they were locked in by their greedy bosses to

a woman in a wheelchair who is obviously handicapped being forced to show medical papers to prove she's handicapped. And you seem to be arguing that she should be forced to show medical papers because of that factory fire.

That's fucking insane. Laugh away.

[Confusious]

132. No, I'm not comparing that

You obviously have a hard time with reading and comprehension.

I'm laughing at, and making a comparison with, your statement about laws.

[lunatica]

134. Don't blame me for your lousy writing

Maybe you're the one who should work on your communication skills.

[Confusious]

135. It was pretty obvious

I pointed out what you said about the laws. I made it quite clear.

I guess you can't even understand yourself.

[MoonRiver]

40. I am seriously ROFLMAO!

A healthy person would go to the trouble of getting herself a wheelchair. lug it out of the car and sit in it, then roll up to the desk to ask for the bathroom key, ALL FOR THE THRILL OF SITTING ON A HANDICAPPED JOHN!

[notadmblnd]

55. I've heard that they're a real treat!

Especially the ones that have a hand in the bowl that rise up to wipe your ass for you.

[MoonRiver]

70. OMG! Ok, NOW I understand

why the handicapped impostors are out there!

[freshwest]

83. Listening to Alex Jones, a lady called the automatic flusher a spy cam device. He agreed.

What will our overlords think of next to show how much they love us? The circus is in town.

[MoonRiver]

91. Oh, I just so DO NOT want to go there....

[freshwest]

98. Yeah, but THEY did... They think they're just like Right Said Fred... LOL:

[FrodosPet]

119. With my back condition, I NEED one of those

Not to get graphic, but there are days I need a few hours bed rest after using the can.

Which brings up a "selfish" point: HEALTH CARE FOR ALL!!! NOW!!!

And another point: Let doctors be doctors and let them prescribe pain meds for people IN PAIN without fearing for their liberty and livelihood.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. This is the funniest post I've read in my life

And that took work.

Really, lug a chair out, sit on it, so you can use a John? Hey, on the plus side the upper body work out will be good.

[LanternWaste]

73. You can of course point us to the numerous and systemic instances

You can of course point us to the numerous and systemic instances of wholly and fully healthy people feigning crippling diseases and using a wheelchair for the sole purpose of using bathroom stall, and the cost borne to society from this specific abuse?

Or is this lack of common sense projected onto the system merely conjecture on your part?

[Aerows]

125. If you demand papers

from a quadruple amputee verifying their need for a wheelchair, then you need glasses and a sense of the obvious transplant. You are far more disabled than they are if that was the case.

[EC]

24. This is to use the bathroom

not to get any kind of monetary bennies. You're not serious are you? When something is perfectly obvious by looking, why is there even a question?


On edit: Are bathrooms really that much in demand? I can't believe that there are so many that would want to use the facilities at one time that a pass should even be a requirement.

[Gold Metal Flake]

30. That is exactly what my asshole republican neighbors would say.

You keep good company!

[freshwest]

79. Let's see, 'degenerates' and 'special treatment' does sound a bit Freeperish. Oh, well. n/t

[HiPointDem]

47. she shrunk herself & borrowed a wheelchair just to use the disabled toilet?

[malaise]

78. But of course

Still shaking head

[4th law of robotics]

58. Probably the case

I didn't read the article (daily fail, only good for pics not insight).

But I'm guessing it's simply a case of: the rules state you must have a doctors note and fill out this application to get disabled benefits. Yes you are clearly disabled. But this is a bureaucracy. Every t has to be crossed and every i dotted or else someone gets fired.

[ZombieHorde]

74. I would never ask anyone to prove their disability just to use a toilet.

I would much rather have some fakers occasionally use the toilet than demand a disabled person prove their disability.

[FrodosPet]

120. As long as they are not abusing them

Don't let it get out of hand - those restrooms are NEEDED by the disabled, and if some idjit is tying it up, or worse, vandalizing them, they are denying the people who have a legitimate need.

[FiveGoodMen]

95. Thanks to you, this entire thread is about to disappear for me...

[Aerows]

121. In a wheelchair

Need to use the toilet. Need to use the toilet more than once. Still in a wheelchair several hours later.

Not sure why this is hard for you to grasp. It's not like she's going to suddenly be able to leap out of the chair and get in a regular stall. I'm sure she'd be thrilled to be able to do so.

[JustAnotherGen]

2. It IS horrible

She's in a wheelchair and obviously disabled . . .

Physical complicationsPhysical signs of spina bifida may include:

Leg weakness and paralysis[13]
Orthopedic abnormalities (i.e., club foot, hip dislocation, scoliosis)[13]
Bladder and bowel control problems, including incontinence, urinary tract infections, and poor renal function[13]
Latex allergy
Pressure sores and skin irritations[13]
Abnormal eye movement[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spina_bifida

Anyone who has been around someone who has spina bifida knows - we KNOW - it's an absolutely debilitating birth defect.

[Tony_FLADEM]

3. I know. I have Spina Bifida.

[JustAnotherGen]

117. Gaaah

ETA - I know it's not something you can "fake". Have human beings really become this ugly and cold?

[Aerows]

122. I'm sure you regularly go around faking it

Just so you can use the bathroom, too

I'm sure you wouldn't wish to NOT have spina bifida, because being able to use the almighty bathroom is such a privilege, well, people all over the place are just faking it to get in there.

God. Never expected to see a comment like this on DU, but I guess dumb is everywhere these days.

[malthaussen]

5. This is part and parcel of an ongoing malaise

Because there are people who will abuse any privilege, violate any law, the innocent are required to prove their innocence. One can see countless examples of crap like this wherever one looks.

-- Mal

[lame54]

6. Voter ID Laws...

so we make sure that the voter fraud that really isn't happening doesn't get out of control

if we have to purge 20 -30 thousand eligible voters - hey that's the way it goes

[cthulu2016]

20. No, because voter fraud is not a real problem

The able-bodied seeking handicapped privileges is a very real problem for the disabled.

That's what makes this story so ridiculous as news. The Daily Mail is, currently, a RW tabloid that delights in anti-government stories.

I can guarantee that the Daily Mail has run equally outraged stories about the same bureaucracy giving a handicapped pass to people without serious disabilities. Either way, the government is bad.

[lame54]

23. I doubt it is enough of a problem...

to humiliate the legitimately handicapped

[cthulu2016]

37. Aside from your choice of a loaded term, of course it is

I doubt anything is enough of a problem to justify humiliating the handicapped for the sake of doing so.

But making the disabled jump through hoops (an unfortunate metaphor) is standard practice because there is, in fact, great demand for (and more than enough of a problem with) handicapped passes from people who do not warrant them.

It is a balancing act.

But the real bottom line is that anti-government propaganda from a RW rag in Britain about some policy implementation in an individual instance in Britain is not very worthwhile.

[lame54]

39. fair enough

[cthulu2016]

7. Oh c'mon... isn't it obvious that they have a documentation requirement?

Isn't it obvious that the people here were following some established protocol, like requiring a doctor's note to give to key?

Isn't it obvious that tabloids present things in tabloid fashion?

The intentional implication is that 1) the staff did not believe her, and 2) that they demanded she offer some cruel on the spot demonstration.

Isn't it likelier that the staff absolutely believed her but lacks the authority to dispense the access status without some required documentation or form or something?

Has nobody ever dealt with a bureaucracy before?

It seems like it would be humane to have a documentation exception for obvious cases... it seems pointless to demand that someone with no arms or legs to provide a letter to that effect.

But then we would be talking about the borderline cases of that policy. There is always going to be a point where any inflexible rule becomes absurd, and there will always be a point where any flexible rule will be abused.

That's the nature of rules. Rules are a constant balancing act.

If the staff has discretion it may be better, but then next week the daly mail will have a different outrage story about some staff person giving a handicapped pass to his mother-in-law who has a hangnail.


I hate these least-common-denominator chuckle-headed daily-outrage stories. Obviously a horrible experience for the woman in question, but probably not the jeering, inexplicable arbitrary cruelty the article seeks to imply.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Dime on the dollar she has a disabled placard

And for that she already met state requirements.

This is people being stupid and no, this s not bureocracy.

A whole different example of we have power and will use it. We hold press credentials from the county, they did a background check and it's issued by the cops. That official background check was not god enough for the rent a cops at the county fair...never mind I walk around security at all county buildings and courts.

[MineralMan]

19. Were you on assignment at the county fair?

Covering a story? If so, your press credentials should have been honored. If you weren't working on a story, though, I'm not sure what the problem might have been.

[cthulu2016]

25. She did. She didn't have it with her.

The staff didn't think they had the discretion to waive the requirement that she have her documentation.

The staff appears to have been incorrect in that. But we cannot know that they were, because that's what was said subsequently in the face of her complaint and bosses selling out subordinates when someone makes a complaint is also a standard feature of bureaucracy.

Poorly trained staff is, in fact, part of bureaucracy. Stupid people are also part of beareacracy... the staff has to come from somewhere.

You seem to think there is some story here other than, "Staff follows rules too closely, inconveniencing citizen."

That is a standard feature of all interactions with a large bureaucratic system, public or private.

[zappaman]

29. "Poorly trained staff is, in fact, part of bureaucracy."

That right there is on the money.
The Old Ones would be proud!

[lapislzi]

52. I think you're wrong about bosses selling out subordinates.

At least not where I work. Except in cases of gross incompetence or negligence, if my staff screws up, I have to look at my methods and communications to see where and how I failed to deliver the correct message.

If gross incompetence or negligence is to blame, then management needs to spend more time training the the staffer and making sure that person understands her responsibilities. And if that doesn't work, then the employee must be dismissed or reassigned. If I am incompetent or negligent, I expect my superior to tell me so.

The correct management response when a lower ranking employee makes a mistake is that the staff did as they were instructed. Management did not explain the policy and its exceptions clearly enough.

I have never thrown a colleague under the bus, although I have seen it done. The worst thing I've ever said about a colleague or subordinate is "I don't think he had all the facts, or he wouldn't have done that."

[lapislzi]

11. We're talking about a goddamn restroom key.

It's not like money is changing hands or someone is being granted (horrors!) special privileges.

Your well-made point about tabloids aside, this is a fucking restroom key we're talking about. To whom do you suppose the bureaucrats would have to answer should the restroom be used by an "unauthorized" person? Are the key-holders keeping a log of who uses the holy restroom?

This is absurd.

[cthulu2016]

15. How is a restroom key different than a parking space?

It is something that everyone would like to use, but that is reserved for handicapped use.

Personally, I would be much more careful about a mass transit restroom pass than a parking pass.

The daily news would have a field day with miscreants lurking in the handicapped restroom to rob the helpless.

It is a sad story about an easy to understand infuriating bureaucratic issue and the outrage-enthusiasts will get their daily fun from imagining some weird heroes and villains story where the staff people jeer at the disabled like Pilate mocking Christ or something.

If the story were cast sensibly it wouldn't be nearly as entertaining to folks who find outrage fun.

Obviously disabled woman requesting a handicapped pass told she needs to document her obvious disability.

Doesn't that happen several times a day anywhere in the world where clerks dispense handicapped passes? I know it does in my town.

She did not have here handicapped ID with her. The clerk was unable to pull up her computer file.

The boss subsequently sent her a letter saying that documentation is required, but that the staff should have used discretion.

Poorly trained or incompetent staff.

But the shock headline and tone is a joke. Everyone is told to PROVE they are disabled, and there is no indication anywhere that any staff person doubted she was, in fact, disabled, so the premise of the story is a lie. They felt themselves bound by the rules they had been taught. They did not feel they had an discretion.

I find this sort of RW propaganda particularly annoying on DU... for obvious reasons.

_____________________

[malthaussen]

27. Your point about "discretion" is well-taken, but I don't see how this is RW propaganda.

I was a rent-a-pig for many years, and I can assure you that I knew coworkers who were fired in situations like this for using their discretion.

But I think the central problem is our decision as a society (and Britain's as well, apparently, since this episode took place in Britain) has been that "we're not going to let those creeps get away with it" is more important than serving the needs we supposedly want to serve, and that this attitude is enshrined in the bureaucratic rules entangling such services.

And let us get real: the creeps who abuse handicapped rules can pretty easily find ways to circumvent the rules that are supposed to stop their abuse. My question with regulations like this (and other, similar regulations) is whether or not the "criminals caught" outweigh the humiliation and degradation laid on the innocent, when the burden of proof is on them to prove their innocence.

-- Mal

[cthulu2016]

41. The RW prop. part is the source and tone

The Daily Mail has flirted with a more moderate tone at times, but over most of its history, and today, it is a RW tabloid.

And RW tabloids delight in stories about the cruelty and incompetence of government at all levels.

Like when GHW Bush said Dukakis thought the DMV was the proper model of life in America. People hate government bureaucracy, and for understandable reasons.

And that antipathy is a valuable anti-government propaganda tool, in the UK and here.



The question of how demanding government should be in allocating limited resources reserved for the disabled is indeed a valid policy question and discussion topic, but the Daily Mail has no interest in framing an honest discussion of that.

[malthaussen]

44. Agree about the Daily Mail, their bias is well-known

An interesting thought about the anti-government propaganda. I'm often blind to such tactics because I'm tolerably capable of rational thought. But for the same reason, I'm also incompetent to judge how valid your point is.

Your last point about the Mail not being interested in framing an honest discussion is doubtless true. But on the old "broken clock" principle, we can be capable of framing such a discussion, even if that is not the intent of the publisher.

Lastly, the old "You must prove your innocence" trend in our society just drives me straight up the wall. So I tend to snarl viciously whenever I see an example of it, although curiously enough it doesn't affect my thoughts on government.

-- Mal

[patrice]

57. 1+++ People bitch about media AND seem to be completely incapable of recognizing precisely

what is wrong with any given piece of media that, for whatever reason, they want to agree with.

[lapislzi]

32. Thank you; I think the clarification was necessary.

Discretion.

It is appropriate that when an apparently able-bodied person requests handicapped privileges, they be questioned. It has happened to my husband, whose disability is not obvious--until he stands up and walks.

Because my husband CAN walk short distances, we don't always use the handicapped parking, figuring that others with greater disabilities should have that option.

But there needs to be an equal measure of discretion on the other side of the counter.

And yes, tabloid trash is just that, although I don't think that this is an unworthy topic of discussion.

[malthaussen]

51. The problem there is that discretion is not permitted the other side of the counter

That security guard who demands to see your ID even though you walk past him five days a week is not, necessarily being a pain for the fun of it. He can and will be fired if somebody sees him neglecting his duty and reports it.

OTOH, he can and will be fired if he is scrupulous in his duty and someone with enough pull complains about it.

Which doesn't exclude the possibility of the guard being one who would jerk you around just for the fun of it. In my experience, though, that's less common than a lot of us think.

-- Mal

[lapislzi]

60. Where I work, we stand behind our people at all levels.

I have made some egregious errors that have actually cost my company money, but my (excellent) boss sees these as teachable moments.

No one would ever get fired for applying company policy AS THEY UNDERSTOOD IT. I had a higher-up get pissy with me for not divulging privileged information to one of her clients. My boss totally covered my ass. She got her information, but she was also made aware that I was doing my job and was not to be reprimanded for it. My boss explained to me why it was OK for X client (or type of client) to know this stuff, but not ALL clients. Lesson learned. Now I know for next time.

I would certainly have been in trouble for divulging the information without my boss's permission.

That's the communication I was talking about. If employees don't understand the policies they're applying, they can't be blamed for applying them without any thought or discretion.

[malthaussen]

63. I'm assuming you're a professional

Security work is meat-market stuff. Different standards apply. You're describing a work environment in which you are actually valued for your contribution.

-- Mal

[lapislzi]

69. You're right, and it's a shame.

Except I *do* value the work done by the security personnel. They are unfailingly polite while still being required to turn away all manner of riff-raff* in order that the "professionals" have a quiet, safe, and pleasant workspace.

They help out the delivery guys, roll out the mats when it rains, hail taxis when needed...lots of stuff I wouldn't be very good at doing.

*riff-raff: I have noticed in times of economic downturn a concurrent rise in the numbers of door-to-door salespeople. I'm talking about people selling faux oil paintings, or potted plants, or stuff off the back of a truck. There is a place for these kinds of merchants, and it is not in an office building. Local merchants who want to leave brochures and coupons are welcome to do so.

And, if a potted-plant purveyor somehow made it up to our floor, I wouldn't blame the security people. I also wouldn't be angry if they called up to make sure Mr. X was expected. That's their job.

Maybe I have some wacky idealistic idea of work and its value.

[malthaussen]

71. I've been fortunate enough to work in a couple of places similar to what you describe,

but they are all too rare. I had a friend whose boss went to a "management training" session once. When the boss returned, my friend asked her what she had learned. The boss thought for a minute, and replied "Well, the one thing I learned was that you can always wave that paycheck." That, unfortunately, seems to be the standard management tecnique of the latter part of the 20th century up through now.

-- Mal

[lapislzi]

77. I'd tell my boss he's a dying breed, except he knows.

And, even though he owns the company, he is just as pleasant to the cleaners and security folks as he is to the others in our office. He is just as likely to be on a first name basis with the UPS guy as he is with the accountants.

And if you are conscientious enough to drag yourself to work in a snowstorm, you are rewarded with free pizza.

I consider myself very, very fortunate.

[malthaussen]

86. I once required the president of a company to show his ID

He was pleased as punch and commended me for properly doing my job. OTOH, the senior VP in the same company once spent five straight minutes chewing out a co-worker for the exact same thing. It can make you jumpy...

-- Mal

[lapislzi]

89. I find those types to be insecure.

One way to make me bust out laughing in almost any situation is to demand, "don't you know who I am?!"

My grandmother schooled me in that years ago when she was a telephone operator at a hotel. Arthur Godfrey (then a big wig) demanded that she clear the lines so he could make a call. She told him he could wait in line like everybody else.

OK, this was back when telephone numbers had 4 digits and words in them.

[malthaussen]

94. Yep, exactly those words, and I agree about the insecurity.

But insecurity with power is a bad thing.

Different (MUCH different!) company, different co-worker: we had a lovely, cheerful, bright new receptionist on her first day of work at the main office building. Senior VP comes in, refuses to show ID, yells and screams at the girl and practically reduces her to tears. ("Don't you know who I am? You should!&quot The poor girl gave in and let him pass without showing his ID. He immediately went to his office, called the Chief of Security, and said "That girl didn't make me show my ID." She was fired within the hour.

I find that kind of pettiness and meanness in a person in a responsible position almost incomprehensible, and then I take a look at Congress...

Your Arthur Godfrey story reminds me of one told about Le Bec Fin, the once-finest restaurant in Philly. Elizabeth Taylor was in town and wanted dinner, so she had her flunky call for a table. The maitre'd replied that he was sorry, they were all booked up, one needed to make reservations at least a month in advance.
Flunky splutters: "But, but, you don't understand! This is Elizabeth Taylor!"
Maitre'd replies: "No, sir, you don't understand. We have only six tables."

-- Mal

[treestar]

106. Yes, good post

Younger people with little experience, in a job, get yelled at for doing things on their own. Then they get more circumspect about what they do on their own. People want to keep their jobs, so they go the safe route. Doesn't matter what they personally think of, part of the issue is with the job and the people there.

No really good reason to indulge in outrage, but rather to advocate people going easier on other people. Ironically it is the same willingness to judge what someone else did wrong that created and fuels this outrage.

[LynneSin]

9. Haven't we all faked a handicap with a wheelchair to get the handicap bathroom stall before???

Those people are shameful and that's no sarcasm!

[lapislzi]

13. Actually....

I urge you to check out the episode of "The IT Crowd" where Roy does just that. I know that true handicaps are no joke, but Roy's impersonation of a disabled person is hilarious. And, he gets his just desserts at the end of the episode.

So there, fakers!

[GoCubsGo]

38. That's the first I have ever heard of anyone locking up the handicapped stalls, specifically.

In most places I have ever been, they are free to use by all. It's just that if a handicapped person is present, they have priority to them. AFAIK, there is no rule, at least in this country, that states that non-handicapped people are banned from using handicapped toilets. Granted this took place in the UK.

[treestar]

109. Yes, There's one in every public bathroom

and I've never seen one that could not be accessed by non-handicapped people.

The UK can be a strange land.

[Odin2005]

14. That is messed up!

[Liberal_in_LA]

21. she's clearly disabled.

[One_Life_To_Give]

42. If she had to use the bathroom right then it would be different.

But to get a permanent/personal key to the handicapped lavatories. Management is going to expect to find some documentation in the file folder. The state doesn't hand out disabled parking stickers without documentation.

[MineralMan]

43. A minor story from a British tabloid, eh?

Somewhere, this very minute, something is happening that shouldn't happen, somewhere.

That thing is not an example of a trend, a common occurrence, or otherwise worthy of note. That a story is printed about it in some newspaper, still does not necessarily take it out of the class of the isolated, local incident.

This particular story will not be followed up here on DU. We will not find out if the petty bureaucrat who did this was reprimanded, or if the policy was changed. We won't know about that. We also won't know if this is a common practice in Council offices in the UK, or if it was an isolated incident that has never happened before.

What will happen, though, is that someone will find the story and post it on DU. It could be a schoolkid getting sent home for coming to school with a pet lizard on his shoulder. It could be almost anything, and it will find its way to DU.

What happened to this woman was not right, and it shouldn't have happened. That it did indicates nothing, except that some petty bureaucrat did a really stupid thing. In some town in the UK.

This is a great example of a local injustice that may well not be at all typical of what happens in British Council offices. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to think of it, other than it is an example of the well-known fact that petty bureaucrats often act in stupid ways.

[lapislzi]

45. I think that *is* the take-away

Petty bureaucrats (read: schools, local officials, cops, et al) do some damned dumb shit. Why? Because it relieves them of the tedious chore of thinking.

I follow these stories because of their common thread: the complete lack of common sense among most people.

[malthaussen]

54. Have you ever been a petty bureaucrat? You can be fired for thinking.

And that is not a joke, nor is it sarcasm.

-- Mal

[11 Bravo]

56. DAMN! For 37 years I've thought of myself as an educator. Now I find that in reality I'm ...

nothing more than a "petty bureaucrat". Thanks for the heads up.

[MineralMan]

59. How do isolated incidents tell you about "most people?"

This story tells us about one person with no common sense. It doesn't tell us that all British Council workers lack common sense - just one.

The same is true of most stories like this. A school won't let kids put on sunscreen? That doesn't mean all schools do something so stupid. It means that some moron at that school is a moron.

You refer to "the complete lack of common sense among most people," but rely on isolated stories for evidence of that. Poor logic is what that is.

[treestar]

110. We don't know they didn't have common sense

We know nothing about the job, the boss, the situation, really. Maybe that boss just pitched a fit over the use of common sense in a scenario.

[MineralMan]

116. Exactly!

This posting of unusual situations as reported in the tabloids of the world, and then pretending that the unusual represents the usual is tiresome.

And, as always, we won't hear about this person coming back with her doctor's notice and getting the key she needs. Is the rule stupid? Yes, probably. I imagine, though, that the person will get the key and use the bathroom.

The story says nothing about anything except a single incident that occurred in some small office in the UK. It's long past and the problem solved, I'm sure.

There's another story this evening on DU about some moron TSA agent who spilled someone's ashes on the floor at some airport. Obviously, that's not standard practice for the TSA, and obviously, the agent who did that will get counseled about it, and won't do that again. In the meantime 10,000 other passengers flew this week with cremains in their possession and arrived at their destinations with those cremains intact. But the exception is offered as an example of some kind.

I grow weary of this kind of illogic. I really do.

[patrice]

66. There's also a "complete lack of common sense" in implying they have contempt for the handicapped.

Some might, most don't and not making that differentiation promotes contempt for the handicapped.

If handicapped have a right to be known, empirically, as the persons they are, without documentation, then that right applies to bureaucrats too, or must they produce their PC documentation too, before we can respect them as persons.

[Taverner]

61. This is where we're headed, folks.

I-got-mine-so-fuck-you

[jillan]

65. This makes me SICK!

[MichaelMcGuire]

67. The mind boggles (nt)

[marybourg]

72. My mother was pissed off for years

because when my father was called up in WW ll and they were deferring fathers at that point, she showed up with him, 6 months pregnant with me, and they wouldn't accept the obvious bulge as proof of impending fatherhood. The draft board wanted a doctor's note! She talked about this well into my adulthood. "What did they think I had in there? A pillow?", she used to ask. Well it could have been. Or a tumor. Were they obstetricians?

[LanternWaste]

75. Idiots for doing this.

Idiots for doing this. Idiots for rationalizing this. Idiots for justifying this. Idiots for defending this.

Not a word I use lightly, but fully and wholly applicable in this case. Idiots.

[Auntie Bush]

76. Bet the insensitive bastards were Republicans. No one could be like that and be a Dem.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Tories

This gem is British.

[FrodosPet]

124. It's not political

It is bureaucracy. It's all about "The Rules", and covering your ass so you have a job to go to tomorrow..

Question - if it wasn't as physically obvious as this case is, would the clerk be right or wrong in asking for proof?

Should anyone be able to get a pass, key, whatever? Think about it: in the f-ed up world of pay toilets, that key has some value, and letting anyone have one just because they are in a wheelchair (which, honestly ANYONE can buy, find, borrow, or steal a wheelchair) is DENYING the people who really need that access.

[nanabugg]

82. Well, they didn't ask her if she was a citizen....!!

Some people need to really go to hell!!

[ProgressiveEconomist]

90. This thread is EXTREMELY misleading. The disabled woman was planning ahead, not

The disabled woman was planning ahead, not soiling herself because she had to use the toilet right there and then, as the OP seems to imply.

Still, her experience was humiliating, and she already was in the bureaucrats' computer. But the URL from the OP shows that ultimately the office manager sent her a personal carry-along key, along with an apology

From http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2154856/Prove-youre-disabled-What-council-told-woman-wheelchair-asked-key-toilets.html

By Emma Reynolds, 5 June 2012

Nicola Parnell, 32, visited East Staffordshire Borough Council’s customer services office to buy access to the facilities at her local shopping centre in Burton-on-Trent. But she said jobsworth staff demanded she produce evidence of her chronic illness - despite the fact she was in a wheelchair and her body is the size of a 10-year-old's.

Shocked: Nicola Parnell was left distraught when council staff told her to go home and get evidence she really had spina bifida 'I asked the receptionist if I could buy a key and she said she couldn’t give me one unless I could prove that I was disabled,' said a shocked Ms Parnell. 'She said I’d need to go home and come back with some identification; either my blue badge or a letter showing my disability living allowance. ...

Ms Parnell claims she asked a receptionist to look for her details on the council’s computer system as she had been to the office a month earlier to update her blue badge.

'Discrimination': Ms Parnell, 32, said she was told by customer services to produce her blue badge or a letter before she could be given a key to the disabled toilets

'She told me she couldn’t access my details and she could no longer help me unless I had proof of my disability', she added.

'I was completely stunned and upset by what happened. I was shocked. I felt discriminated against. 'I want to raise awareness of how disabled people can be treated. I’ve never had to prove that I’m disabled before, especially just to buy a toilet key.'

Ms Parnell has now lodged a formal complaint about the incident.

[LeftishBrit]

96. Disgusting

But it's ironic that the Daily Mail are complaining about it, because they've been, with the governmen and other right-wing media, at the forefront of the current onslaught on disabled people. All people on disability benefits, and many who aren't on benefits, are workshy scroungers until proved otherwise!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/04/ian-birrell-prejudice-against-disabled

This incident is just taking the attitude to its logical, or illogical, conclusion!

[progressivebydesign]

100. Some people need to read the story...

She was not asking for a key, the way you do in a gas station. She was applying to get a permanent key to the bathrooms, at the shopping center. Apparently in the UK people still have pay toilets... And to get a key, being disabled, you are asked for proof.

This is no different than getting a disabled placard for your car here in the US, etc. You must have doctor's notes or a form filled out. This is to protect everyone, including the folks that don't look as if they have a disability. While I'm sure her disability was obvious (though sitting in a wheelchair does not obviously mean anything as I've seen plenty of street beggars use them to get money,) because of her stature, the rules are the rules. And it does protect the disabled in the long run by weeding out the fakes.

It's one of those fake outrage stories meant to get everyone upset, unless they read it critically, and realize that she was NOT asking for the key to the bathroom.. she was applying for a permanent key.

[Xipe Totec]

102. The apology letter from the Service Center Team Lead is included in the story

Showing that they made a mistake and that they should have used their discretion.

Clearly, staff had the authority to override the policy requiring written proof, but failed to do so.

[treestar]

111. Whoever made that decision isn't getting to tell their side

Maybe they didn't know they could or were afraid to go without the documentation for some reason.

[Xipe Totec]

112. True. So the remedy mentioned in the apology is appropriate; training

I can see both sides of the issue.

I think the incident was regrettable, but it has been acknowledged as an error, and corrected.

[Vincardog]

101. This whole thread makes no sense. What is the issue?

Here in the USA we all use the public toilets and have a handicapped stall at the end.
Some pay toilets charge at the door but they are easily hacked.

[Prophet 451]

104. That's a fucking cheek from the Mail

Of all our tabloids, the Mail has been most responsible for creating and nurturing the current hatred and suspician of the poor and sick.

[barbtries]

113. so this wave of meanness

is not confined to the good old USA.