"America is not the greatest country in the world."

[WilliamPitt]

I think I need to get HBO.

[hlthe2b]

1. Someone posted a link here to see the first episode...

I loved it... Check tvchat or the lounge, perhaps.


On edit, here it is: http://www.democraticunderground.com/101736799

[LanternWaste]

2. Sorkin was at the top of his game with this episode...

Sorkin was at the top of his game with this episode...

Without a doubt, he may be one of the best serial-drama writers in the here and now.

[1monster]

3. Wow! If I'd known there were shows like this, I might still have

been watching television...

[progressoid]

9. If only it weren't drowned out by Dancing with the Stars or Jersey Shore or

the tons of dreck on the airwaves.


Unfortunately these are the shows that America watches. Quality is the exception. You're not missing much.

[Lionessa]

4. I watched the first episode last night. Excellent.

I have no doubt since I'm not a paying customer, it'll be the only one I can watch. I'll envy the rest of you, no doubt. An excellent opening for the series.

[OriginalGeek]

5. I didn't know much about it

but I recorded it Sunday to check it out and watched it last night.

Blew me away.

I was stunned when the credits began to roll - had no idea i had been watching that long. Immediately went into programming to capture the entire series.


I never subscribed to HBO until I started watching True Blood - and then we just subscribed during TB season and dumped it until the next season. Then came Game of Thrones so I had to keep HBO for 2 shows.

Now I'll have to keep it for three.

[whatchamacallit]

6. K&R!

[barbtries]

7. it'll get to Netflix eventually

i hope.

[Schema Thing]

14. It's on YouTube now. Someone posted it here last evening.

[shcrane71]

18. I hope so too. I just watched the first episode on YouTube.

It was unbelievably good. I don't have cable, but I need to find out a way to watch this.

[Rhiannon12866]

25. Here it is, posted right here on DU:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101736799

[barbtries]

34. thank you.

i think i'll watch that

[zappaman]

8. Sorkin is soooo predictable

http://www.deadline.com/2012/06/sorkinisms-aka-self-plagiarizing-video/

[FarLeftFist]

24. Reminds me of the Wilhelm Scream compilation

But Sorkin is on the money!

[Electric Monk]

27. Cute link. Nice editing. nt

[TeamPooka]

10. In real life...

any network news anchor that said that would be off the air within 72 hours due to the chicken littles in the country.
I loved it.
BTW the episode is available for free on iTunes and a couple other legit sites.
HBO released to build audience after the debut.

[blaze]

12. I watched it on Hulu last night

and was hoping I could view the rest... but you're saying it was just a tease? (which makes sense)

Rats.

[TeamPooka]

20. the whole episode is available.

at itunes and other spots
Probably hulu now too.

[fascisthunter]

11. That was awesome....

[SunSeeker]

13. That was great. Thanks. nt

[glinda]

15. wonderful

[ProgressiveEconomist]

16. Link to the script for this scene: Sorkin gave it to GQ, along with

a running description of the thought process that led to it.

Sorkin compared writing this scene to composing music. The rapid-fire recitation of facts and figures was "the allegro":

http://www.gq.com/entertainment/tv/blogs/the-stream/2012/06/how-to-write-a-monologue-like-aaron-sorkin.html

[Auggie]

17. Kudos to HBO

Sorkin wrote it, but HBO aired it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

63. Since HBO has no commercials and is supported by subscribers, it is willing

to let writers and producers experiment much more than any commercial channel (or even PBS, which is scared of right-wing Congresscritters) is able to do. If the subscribers like a show, it stays.

[cate94]

19. Thank you

That was brilliant.

[JDPriestly]

21. Unfortunately, if you want the good channels like MSNBC, Current and HBO,

you have to pay extra. Many of the people who would like to watch these kinds of shows have to choose -- internet or cable -- and so we don't get cable because internet permits us to have more flexibility and choice in what we watch and what we ignore.

It's unfortunate, but that is how it is.

[Squinch]

22. Yay, yay, yay!

that someone said all this. And all the media outlets are panning this show. Ironic, no. There was also a great line in there about the necessity to speak truth to stupid. I loved it.

I'll be subscribing to HBO just for this show.

[Mira]

23. In places where I have no hair

it is standing up straight anyway.

[FarLeftFist]

26. Another GREAT HBO show to look forward to.

[pa28]

28. If only those things happened in real life.

As long as we continue to believe we are exceptional we'll never take that long overdue look in the mirror. Great stuff.

[pintobean]

29. There's no place I'd rather be.

There were certainly some good points in that clip, but a list of negatives can be made for any country.

[Curmudgeoness]

38. You are free to add a rebuttal.

Answer the question posed in the video with a list of positives.

Personally, I find that what was said was spot-on.

[pintobean]

44. I'm free to do a lot of things.

Satisfying you isn't one that I choose to do.

[retread]

30. I believe the implication is that it used to be. What

specific period was that? Pre-Columbus perhaps?

[whathehell]

53. It's not an implication, It's stated outright..

and without going into a competition of superlatives of "greatest", "second-greatest"

blah blah, there's a lot of truth to what he said, though you might be

too young to remember or too stuck in fashionable snark to admit it.

[Puregonzo1188]

56. I was wondering about that too. Particularly about when we "waged war on poverty" not "poor people"

or went to war for moral reasons and did things for moral reasons.


I recognize the war on poverty was a government program during the Johnson era, but there are a awful lot of dead union members during the late 19th century, early 20th century for me to believe waging war on poor people is a new thing.

As far as waging war for moral reasons, I am assuming he's talking about World War II, but what about all the times before that we sent Marines into Haiti or Nicaragua or wherever to you know--beat on poor people?

[Bryn]

31. ?????

What's it about? There are those of us in hearing impaired community here.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

35. Click on the script link in post #16 above

[Bryn]

41. I got it! Thank you!

[mmonk]

32. Is not a shit statement. Great clip.

[handmade34]

33. excellent...

love Jeff Daniels!!!

[wandy]

36. Hate to be the one to tell this to you, but weather or not America is the greatest country......

in the world.

Is up to you and me......

For what it's worth............

There's somethin' happenin' here
What it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun, over there
Tellin' me I got to beware

(I think it's time we)
Stop, children, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's goin' down?

There's battle lines bein' drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Young people speakin' their minds
Gettin' so much resistance from behind

(It's time we)
Stop, hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's goin' down?
[ Lyrics from: http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/b/buffalo_springfield/for_what_its_worth.html ]
What a field day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singin' songs and carryin' signs
Mostly sayin', "hooray for our side"

(It's time we)
Stop, hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's goin' down?

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
Step out of line, the man come and take you away

(We better)
Stop, hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's goin' down?
(We better)
Stop, hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's goin' down?
(We better)
Stop, now, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's goin' down?
(We better)
Stop, children, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's goin' down?

Stephen Stills

[hifiguy]

61. A song that is more topical now than ever. nt

[Curmudgeoness]

37. Wow! Too bad I don't have cable

and even if I did, I would not have premium stations like HBO. But I am blown away!

[indepat]

39. America will sink further in all quality-of-life ranking factors among industrialized nations

as long as our tax code is essentially welfare for the wealthy, including large corporations, and the three major branches of government curry the favor of the wealthy, including large corporations, at the expense of we the people and to our detriment.

[Bluenorthwest]

40. But it can be.

God damn how I admired, enjoyed and simply dug that brilliant opening episode. Every facet of the piece was on point and the coming arc looks tight and risky.

[Canuckistanian]

42. Watched that 3 times

Masterful.

[cthulu2016]

43. Cool speech up until it becomes sentimental delusional tripe

The first part is fine. The second part about what we used to be is a bunch of mythologized, self-congratulatory nonsense.

America probably was the greatest country in the world for a while, but the stuff cited is mostly ridiculous.

To say all our old wars were morally inspired is silly. To say we never beat our chest is silly... we did as soon as we plausibly could.

We are still congratulating ourselves for ending slavery a generation after every other major country did so.

Hell, we heroize people who stole Texas from Mexico because Mexico outlawed slavery.

Sorry, it is a dumb speech.

America's apogee of liberalism, call it 1932-1966, was impressive. It was admirable. I think we really were a great, great nation then.

But while we were congratulating ourselves in the 1960s for taking our own immoral laws off the books... congratulating ourselves for simply ceasing a level of racial discrimination we implemented in the first place ways other great powers did not... we were in the process of killing millions, yes, Millions of people in Vietnam.

When even your best days happen to include killing millions of people it is a mixed record.

[raouldukelives]

51. I agree. I quite enjoyed the first part.

When all the "greatest economy and technological achievements" stuff started I kinda cringed. Considering those are the mechanisms which are now plunging us into a new world of irreversible climate change and massive famine.
But then that does give us a chance to prove we really are a great country. When we can face our own greed and realize the enormity of the consequences of our actions and our forefathers actions. Maybe then we can start to make things better and actually come up with the greatest technological achievement of all. The one that actually makes things better.

[whathehell]

55. Oh no...Not the "We're not progressives if we claim any good at all in America" bit again.

I'd bet you were not even alive during the years you

discount as "sentimental tripe"......Of course, you like the first

part -- the listing of all the "bads"....And, just as predictably,

anything POSITIVE about America is just "sentimental tripe".

Right...While I KNOW it's "de rigeur" for progressives to self-flagellate, in

almost competitive fashion, and I have NO problem admitting America's ills

why is it that "bad" is always more "real" for so many of us than the "good"?

You're damned right America's "apogee of liberalism" was "impressive" and you admit

it...So why speak out of both sides of your mouth, since we were, in your

own words during that time "really really great"?.....Did you imagine, somehow, that a nation

can't claim "greatness" for ANY length of time, without that time equalling "perfection"?

You're looking for heaven, bro...Not a nation governed, like all others, by human beings,

in all their imperfection. As Joe Biden would say, "Don't compare us to the Almighty, compare us to the competition".

I don't see where the "Great Powers" of previous centuries were more "moral" than we...Take a look at

the wars, killing and imperialism of Great Britain, and that of France and the other colonial powers....No more "blameless"

or spiritually evolved than than the US.

That's no reason to be "complacent", of course...We should ALL be trying to improve, all the time,

but I don't think one needs to attain national sainthood before accepting any credit on one's behalf.

[cthulu2016]

57. Unlike you, I was talking about the topic of discussion

The topic of discussion is a particular speech.

The second part of that speech is mythologized, and in silly ways. The speech. The words used. What was expressed.

So you want to attack me for holding a lot of views you (foolishly) assume I hold while not referring to one word of the speech.


Whatever.


And as for comparing us to the competition... why would anyone get on a soapbox to crow about being less bad? It is good to be less bad, but we are talking about a particular speech about how, for instance, America's motivations used to be moral.

That is sentimental tripe.

Saying, "We have behaved in a more moral fashion than other nations" is a different statement.

Saying, "We never beat our chest" (from the speech) is ridiculous. Saying, "We have better record on chest-beating than do most comparable nations" is a different statement.


As for the records of, say, the UK or France... what about them? This is like when Bush's big argument was that we are better than Saddam Hussein. I can catalog the perfidy of a great many nations.

Which is what makes the whole "who's the greatest country thing" so idiotic. The greatest country may be one where people don't go around talking about how they're the greatest country.... that would be a start.

Yes, we can catalog the atrocities of other nations... and their points of superiority.

The UK has a seriously fucked up history. The UK also has done some very good things.

During the American Civil War there were countless thousands of British textile workers whose conditions were little better than slaves to begin with who were thrust into further poverty as England lost access to American cotton. It was a natural move, in many ways, for England to strike a deal with the Confederacy because she really needed the cotton.

British textile workers by the thousands, most who had probably never even seen a person from Africa, protested in the streets that they were willing to lose their jobs before they would support a British alliance (an alliance sought by some very wealthy people, BTW) with a slaving nation. Britain had led the way in global abolition of the slave trade and it was a point of moral pride.

The point of the preceding is not that Britain is a greater nation than the US, or a less great nation than the US.

The point is that it is absurd to talk about American morality as is we have ever held a monopoly on morality. There have been morally exemplary and morally horrific things going on simultaneously in every nation, all the time.

Always.

And an adult should not overlook that fact in crafting a mythology of a uniquely moral or uniquely wise nation, because there has never been one.

And saying, "We used to make war and pass laws for moral reasons" is, indeed, sentimental tripe. And it is silliness—like talking about who would win a fight between Mighty Mouse and Superman.

Doesn't the irony jump out at you, when Daniels says, "We never beat our chest" in the context of saying we used to be the greatest country?

You see the problem, I'm sure... being obsessed with being the greatest nation is a quintessential breast-beating enterprise.

Who brags about their humility???

He was tearing into a college student for buying into a silly mythology about how great we ARE by substituting a silly mythology of how great we WERE.

And proclaiming that we had the world's greatest art? WTF? Even the Imperial Romans had the sense to recognize that the Greeks were better artists. America has produced some great art, but only a boob would cite art as an indicator of American greatness.

It is a silly speech.

America is a great and brilliant enterprise full of good and full of evil. We have done great and remarkable things.

[whathehell]

62. Unlike you, I actually read the posts addressed to me.

The "speech" I am referring to, is the one I heard in the video presented in the OP.

WTF speech are YOU talking about?

[cthulu2016]

64. Dude, you don't even read what you write

There's no reference to the speech in your post, as I already said.

But please feel free to edit it to add something about the speech and then contradict me. I expect no less.

[whathehell]

65. Dude,

I'm not a "dude", but that predictable assumption is duly noted.

"There's no reference to the speech in your post".

Correct. I didn't feel the need to reference the speech

as I thought it was clear I was addressing your critique of it.

But please feel free to strike another supercilious pose...I expect no less.

[Cali_Democrat]

45. K&R

[jillan]

46. I am so looking forward to next weeks episode! Excellent casting along with a great script!!

[clang1]

47. It's not and if you look at all the OECD numbers

they even say that about America. Who needs numbers even when people have their own two eyes to see with, if people choose to open them that is, and many people have not opened their eyes yet. The thing is, it's not only about how bad it is now, it is how to make it better and how to make America one of those 'top' countries that people read about where people can vote, where they have health care, no torture, one set of laws, etc.... Right now all we can concentrate on is putting out fires and it is what the other side wants.....Meanwhile the progression continues....

[Mosaic]

48. Freedom vs. Liberty

Freedom is what conservatives crave to exploit the masses. Liberty is what liberals crave for a better life. Diversity is one thing we can be proud of. Of course it's not the greatest country, it never was. It was an experiment, now corrupted by big money, not much else.

[firehorse]

49. Star Spangle Awesome! Give the writer an emmy!

[agent46]

50. Top notch writing, acting, directing

I wonder what the net effect of watching something like this is for the audience. It's pure fantasy that takes place in an alternate America. Would this ultimately serve as a surrogate for having our actual voices heard?

In which case it might tend to pacify the audience rather than stir anything up.

Wondering out loud about our saturated media culture.

[Gothmog]

52. I really like this show

Aaron Sorkin did a good job on the first episode and this show has the same feel as the old West Wing shows back in the good days of that series

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. HBO is hands down the best network on TV

[truebrit71]

58. Wow...powerful stuff...

..

[Douglas Carpenter]

59. wow! someone actually said it

even if it was a fictitious charachter played by Jeff Daniels in an HBO movie

[Zorra]

60. knr