When did so many (not all) "christians" become hateful psychopaths?

[NightWatcher]

See how I said "not all", if you are a non-psychopathic Christian I applaud you for having been able to keep the Faith. As for me, the meanies at church drove me away in my teens

My family is full of them, reich wing, religious types who despise everything Christ actually did (after commanding that they vote republican and take their directions from hate mongers on tv and radio).

What did Jesus do (assuming you believe what it says in their oft (mis)translated book)?

He fed the hungry- Have you heard them rant and rave about cutting food stamps?

He healed the sick- I don't recall anything about him charging a copay or chastising people for not taking care of themselves or needing help.

He threw the Moneychangers out of the Temple- at two of the larger (big whopper of grandeur) churches that members of my family attend there are ATMs in the lobby as well as credit card kiosks to pay their tithes directly into the church's tax sheltered bank account.

Most important of all, HE SHOWED COMPASSION AND WARMTH- The Religious Right (who are neither) are the most heartless bunch you would ever come across.

People who used to be nice have been warped and manipulated in their blind faith to become the foot soldiers of rich, evil bloated white guys who hate, spend their money, and preach weekly from mega pulpits against everything that their Jesus actually did (once again assuming you believe their book).

Sometimes I wish there were a Hell, just so I could smile knowing that they would pay for their heinous sins.

[Bonhomme Richard]

1. Because they have their own version of extreme Madrassa's. n/t

[nanabugg]

290. Maybe during the Crusades??? nt

[treestar]

2. IMO they identify "christian" with European culture

and therefore "white."

I know there are nonwhite Christians, and some good ones, but the mean ones you describe are always white. They are not sincere.

[Bluenorthwest]

11. Of course that's just bullshit. Look at Ken Hutcherson, for example

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/07/ken-hutcherson-anti-gay-pastor-reclaim-gay_n_1496678.html

Donnie McClurkin:
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2007/10/mcclurkin-i-was.html

TD Jakes. Eddie Long.

There you have a quick list of 4 each of whom has a large congregation and a national following. The fact that hate mongers of the religious kind come in each race and ethnicity makes your statement seem racist to me. The 'mean ones' are not always white. Not by a long shot.

[treestar]

23. Well the ones I know are

And don't call me a racist.

[Tigress DEM]

273. DU is a tough school some days.

I don't think you could have made your original comment if you were racist. Your only real mistake was the word "always" and that's a word that can bite anyone in the butt on this board.

I think a lot of the "warped" aspect of the "right wing" is due to the KKK going about their business in a more sneaky manner. They tried to get David Duke elected directly and when that didn't work, they just smeared their hateful propaganda throughout any church that was vulnerable to believing it.

The craziest part about the KKK (and other crazy radical extremist groups) is that their methods produce people who believe their crap even if their skin is brown and it makes them basically loathe themselves. So although it doesn't make sense that people of color would become this warped and hateful, it happens.

Tig

[NavyDavy]

106. not all but a large majority are Anglo, sorry if people can't accept that but its backed up by

the stats.....

[Bluenorthwest]

115. The title of this OP strains to make the distnction between 'so many' and 'all'. Yet the post I

responded to said 'the mean ones you describe are always white. They are not sincere.'
Not usually, not often, not 'around my area'. Just always white. That if factually inaccurate. And that inaccuracy seems to suggest that when non Anglo preachers preach hate, that is somehow 'not mean' and I do not agree.
There are many large anti gay congregations in this nation, they come in all flavors, they are not 'always' white, and sadly, there is not one group that can say they don't have any bigoted preachers and churches. And that post does claim that only one group provides them all. It is a dangerous fantasy.

[sulphurdunn]

155. Have you been to West Africa

lately, specifically, Uganda, Congo and Nigeria?

[emilyg]

255. Really?

[asjr]

3. You are so right. I have noticed this for quite

some time and finally just left the church.

[mwb970]

198. "God's people" are certainly ungodly, aren't they?

When I was a kid, I just assumed that religious people were better than others: they had Jesus, they had the Bible, they were Good Folks.

As I got older I realized that well no, actually religious people are the same as everyone else, with the same human foibles and failings that we all have.

Now that I am older still, I realize that religious people are actually worse than the rest of us. MUCH worse. They use their religiosity, along with the trusting naivete of those still in "Stage One", to present themselves as holy people relaying the Word Of God to the unwashed (and the unspoken to).

Oddly, the Word Of God appears to be largely political, and to precisely echo what is said every day on Fox "News" and other conservative propaganda outlets. The actual words and teachings of Jesus in the Bible are ignored. (Tell me when you hear a right-wing zealot quote the Sermon On the Mount, the centerpiece of Christ's message. "Blessed are the poor"? I think not.)

[Tigress DEM]

275. They can be.

I think your stage two is actually the closest to the truth that there is.

As I got older I realized that well no, actually religious people are the same as everyone else, with the same human foibles and failings that we all have.

A Christian's only advantage over a non-Christian is that many have successfully followed the teachings of Jesus and become better people in the process, so we have examples to follow and a culture that usually promotes kindness as a way of life. There are other models to achieve the same basic result and Christians can fall from grace ever so easily. It isn't like some magic wand "fixes" all our problems and gives us infinite patience.... that might be Wicca, but I'm probably just joking.

I am a Christian and I judge my kind more harshly when they truly are drinking the koolaid and spouting FAUX Gospel because they actually "believe it". But remember all the disinformation that has been going out for so many years. Even with all the good sources we have access to these days, it's hard to get past all the "crapaganda" clogging the airwaves. So the average person who isn't spending an hour or so a day listening to factual information sources is playing with "funny money" and hasn't a clue.

A lot of denominations promote that each person has their own relationship with God and Christ and that none of us is above the other. So this whole group that "presents themselves as holy people relaying the Word of God to the unwashed" smacks of the Pharisees who were the "know it alls" in Jesus' day and were also known to be quite the sinners when not in public putting on a good face. Your average Christian here on DU is just as frustrated with the actual words and teachings of Jesus being ignored.

[Tigress DEM]

274. I left one church but I found a better one after a bit of a search.

United for Peace and Justice is a group I knew about because I was looking to join some nuns I knew who protested weekly at a certain place against the war in Iraq. I've always known people from various churches who were good models of compassion and charity.

Many of the founding members of UFPJ are churches that believe in encouraging a world of Peace and spending that Peace Dividend on helping the poor and seeking justice for all. They are associated thru UFPJ with all kinds of other groups seeking Peace and working to end injustice where they find it.

I found a church true to it's roots in Peace and Justice ministry and that's where I call home, but sometimes I don't honestly feel "good enough" to go because even I associate myself with those Christians who I behavior I can't stand. I don't do what they do or believe how they believe, but I feel SO bad that any of this is associated with the name of Jesus.

Some times I just want to go out and beat those people up, make them see sense, then I think what a terrible Christian I am for wanting to do that!!

Even if I focus on the psycho part, I feel bad. If someone is so out of touch in their mind, that they will pervert the message of Christ and do pretty much the opposite of what He taught, then they need serious medical assistance and probably medication.

BUT when I realized that anyone who does this consciously is simply evil and working the church angle like a shield against criticism, then I can be mad at those people for perverting what God taught and disassociate myself from their choices to misuse and abuse the title of Christian.

Tig

[Shadowflash]

4. What do you mean 'When have they become'?

They always have been this way. Since before the crusades. Convert or die.

Now they have just been emboldened by the success of the teabaggers to let their true feelings show more.

I wish the more moderate ones (a majority, I'm sure.) would be more vocal in opposition to the nut cases.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

6. What irks me

is that there are so many denominations under the umbrella "Christian." Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Unitarisn, Roman Catholic, etc. When someone defines him or herself as "Christian," that says fundie to me... as in Latter Day Saints, Pentacostal, Jehovah's Witnesses...i.e., CULTS!

[obxhead]

76. They are all cults.

Some may be friendlier than others, but to smear one denomination with the word cult and saying another is just a religion is just silly.

All religions are equal.

[RKP5637]

101. They're all cults to me, as you say, some are just friendlier. And even

friendly is a relative statement. I'm sure in the hate cults the respective members find each other friendly to themselves. Religion to me has always been all about politics.

And many are nothing more than wealthy corporations, Religion, Inc., with a bunch of lackeys (for lack of a better word) feeing them money and so often, with some of them, those at the top living in luxury.

[blueamy66]

230. I don't agree

I was raised RC....not a cult at all

[obxhead]

252. Either they are all cults or none of them are.

To say one religion or denomination is any better than another is simply silly.

Calling one religion a cult is saying that another is somehow superior.

[blueamy66]

253. um, look up the definition of cult

Roman Catholics are not cultist.....I believe what I want to believe...nobody poisoned my mind

But hey, if it makes you feel better to call all religions cults....more power to ya...whatever gets you through the day dude

[obxhead]

258. Gee I guess I should look it up.....

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cult


1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.

Yeah, I'll call your religion and all others what they are, a cult.

[blueamy66]

261. doesn't change my mind a BIT

I love my parents...they raised me right..sorry that your parents sucked

[obxhead]

272. What does this have to do with parents?

Why would you attack my parents?

You said look up the definition of cult. I did and it is the very definition of every religion.

If you look back through my other posts in this thread I state some religions may be friendlier than others, but to smear one religion with the word cult and claim YOUR religion is not a cult is fucking silly.

All religions are cults. They may have different ideas and focus, but they're all cults.

Thanks for attacking my parents though. That in itself makes quite a point.

[Tigress DEM]

289. Here is a different perspective.

I realize that by saying "all religions are cults" and using a definition that is not really demeaning that you aren't trying to be anyone's enemy.

However, when you say "cult" and mean the definition you gave:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cult


1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.

A Christian and most others don't hear that non-demeaning definition.

It brings to mind the idea of a cult as a place that doesn't allow freedom of thought or action and literally enslaves people once they are "in" as in places that people have to be deprogrammed from in order to lead ordinary lives again. (1)

I realize any religion is still not the place for many people like yourself and I respect that.

All I'm asking is a little respect in return. A blanket asessment of "all Christians belong to cults" is as disrespectful as saying anyone who runs on a consistent basis is an adrenilan junkie only doing it for the runner's high.

It isn't accurate and it accomplishes nothing except to piss a possible ally off and that is really cross purpose of DU, so it would be good to find some better ways to talk about it. I'm not saying I have all the answers and I haven't been on DU for awhile, so honestly though it does still seem to be an issue, I do see SOME progress in this area. Still room for growth as always.


Peace
Tig







(1) http://www.cultclinic.org/qa3.html

The difference between a cult and a religion

Within a healthy religious environment, family bonds are upheld and even strengthened, questioning of the leader and basic tenets is accepted, and the leader lives in a similar manner to the followers. One is offered all the information necessary to make an educated decision about joining, and once involved, people can choose the amount of involvement that feels right to them.

A cultic environment tears families apart, does not accept any questioning, and has a leader who claims to have an exalted position and to be above reproach. The cult is designed to solely advance its own goals, to abuse the members’ trust, and to use fear and shame to manipulate the followers. It freely utilizes deceptive techniques while recruiting new members and fundraising, misuses scripture, and declares other belief systems as false. Because it is not under the umbrella of a recognized religion, there is no governing body and the leader is, therefore, free to do as he or she pleases.

We have compiled the following comparative list to address this question, though there is no definitive answer.

DIFFERENCES BETWEEN A DESTRUCTIVE CULT AND A RELIGION

CULT, CULTIC GROUP<***> RELIGION
Deceit in recruitment <***> Information offered up front
Totalitarian <***> Allows freedom of thought and members have a say
Destroys that family unit <***> Promotes the family unit
Isolates its members <***> Works within society
Keeps non-believers out <***> Open to general community
Limits development of individual <***> Interested in promoting potential
Exploits and manipulates its members <***> While there are guidelines members are not with mind control techniques <***> systematically controlled
Commitment is encouraged during <***> Thought before commitment is encouraged
recruitment process <***> as part of conversion process
Criticism is met with threats <***> People are free to speak out against the
of legal action <***> tenets of a religion
Leader and follower consider <***> Clergy are expected to be responsible
leader to be above reproach <***> for their words and actions
Questioning the leader, <***> Critical thinking is allowed and sometimes
or basic tenets, is not allowed <***> even encouraged

[obxhead]

295. I simply see no difference between the two words.

Cult or religion, religion or cult. Take your pick.

My problem is people trashing any religion (or cult) and then parading how great their own personal cult (or religion) is. They all have their beliefs, rituals, ideals, etc, etc, etc. Some may be friendlier than others.

"All I'm asking is a little respect in return. A blanket assessment of "all Christians belong to cults" is as disrespectful as saying anyone who runs on a consistent basis is an adrenalin junkie only doing it for the runner's high."

I get what you're trying to say here. The problem is what about Christians saying ANY other religion is a cult? Don't the members of that "cult" deserve the same respect I'm supposed to give Christians by not calling their religion a cult?

It's not really about a word or its definition in the end. It's about believers of one religion thinking they or their religion is superior to another. The first word the religious tend to throw in those circumstances is "cult."

[Tigress DEM]

298. Personally, I'm not greatly fond of religion itself either, so I understand more than most.

To me - the example of Christ's life and what He wanted His disciples to do is the best way I can see to live my life. So when I call myself a Christian, that is what I mean by it.

Religions are institutions that have been around a long time and have been "tainted" to some degree (in my observations) by the imperfect humans who have used and mis-used the power of those institutions. BUT having said that and even if you read some of my posts about how I disagree with the Catholic Church in particular, the Church has a HUGE number of people down on the front lines trying to make the love of God more present in the world.

Just as there are good soldiers who served in IRAQ in spite of insane orders from the top and corruption all around, there are good Christians, lots of them who believe in Democracy and fight for it every day. Regardless of the uniform one wears, a truly good soldier is one who stands up for the truth and puts his/her life on the line for a cause they believe in.

A truly good Christian believes in Peace and Justice and lives their life as best they can by that standard. Doesn't make them perfect and doesn't mean that everything they believe or do is liberal enough for DU. But if they are drawn to DU, then logical argument that points them toward being better examples of Christ is the best thing a non-believer can use to give them a "put up or shut up" challenge.

WE (honest Christians) BELIEVE in What Jesus did:
He fed the hungry.
We reach out and support others less fortunate whenever we are able.
He healed the sick.
We fight for health care reform and against unjust treatment of those who aren't able to fight for themselves against corporate medicine.
He threw the Moneychangers out of the Temple - busted a few Pharisee's chops too.
We are MAD as Christians can be at Corporate America and hypocrites of all stripes and are busy standing up to as many as we are aware of and able to get within shouting (or faxing) distance to make ourselves heard.
Most important of all, HE SHOWED COMPASSION AND WARMTH to those who needed it, even if they were the ones ridiculing Him as He was dying on the cross.
WE love our enemies and our allies who "just don't get us" sometimes and we try to persevere with compassion, warmth and a non-judge mental understanding. Though, at times it seems like too much to ask... We'd like someplace to just "be" without all the huge drama... but hey, it is what it is, right?
And honestly some days we blow it and send out a really peevish post that shows just how fallible a Christian can be. Forgiveness is a great thing and you don't have to be a Christian to offer it or receive it.


CULTS as a Christian would define it are about people NOT being able to freely act once they have made a decision to join and there is quite a bit of deception and imprisonment going on in certain cults.

I've KNOWN people who have been in a cult and it's SO beyond what I'd call the mainstream fundie area that it's something entirely incomprehensible to any one who hasn't been imprisoned, locked up in a mental ward or abused as a child.

My son went out with a girl who was routinely put into "Youth Night Lock In" at her church.
Now in a mainstream religious "Lock In" they are having games and learning about God and such, still a heavy marketing campaign and a lot of "just say No" going on most likely, but SOOOOO much different from a CULT lock in.
This girl and all the other kids were expected to fast and pray from late Friday night until Sunday morning - of course since the CULT leaders didn't feed them and had them locked in a room all that time and demanded obedience which was sanctioned by the parents there was a whole lot of child abuse going on there. She developed an eating disorder and eventually went to live with her Dad who wasn't a member of that "church" but she'll be affected by that all her life.

An online friend of mine has stories that would make your hair curl and even with a lot of therapy she still needs support when dealing with her family who are still "in" the JWs. I do not know if they are officially a cult (there is an actual list and criteria for determining if a religion is a cult that deprives people of choice and demands conformity). But another part of all of this is that parents can use religion abusively even if the religion itself isn't abusive.

So when you say you can't see a difference, I can agree with you that on the fringe the line is really blurry. A BIG difference would be that someone who is in a religion that isn't a cult can work out a way to be more Christ-like and less of a rethug wannabe without having to escape in the middle of the night and go through deprogramming and/or years of therapy.

Tig

[amandabeech]

259. I was raised United Methodist. My Mom at 90 still goes regularly.

This is small town in the North, but the percentage of loony people calling themselves Christian is low.

You don't hear about them because they don't do loony, nasty things in front of the TV cameras.

They actually engage in charitable acts, especially with seniors in the community.

Plenty of the non-loony Christians are RC, by the way. Very nice people who also don't do loony things for TV.

I really hate to post on these religion-hating threads. I always think that the folks who post them have had a bad string of experiences with the loonies and none with the nice folks.

[blueamy66]

260. Thank you buddy.

I hate religion threads as well.

Have a great 4th!

[LanternWaste]

325. There are precise, obvious and relevant differences between both the classical and the contemporary

There are precise, obvious and relevant differences between both the classical and the contemporary definitions of 'religion' and 'cult', regardless of whether we ourselves maintain an ignorance of those specific differences to better validate our own biases.

[Little Star]

221. CULTS!!! Bingo! I was brought up JW and that piece of shit is a cult!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

262. Unitarian-Universalists are not explicitly christian.

Also they have NO CREEDAL TEST.
This is very important. They have principles.

www.uua.org

I've known plenty of atheist, agnostic and pagan and non-labeling UUs.

[coalition_unwilling]

15. There are strongly liberal and leftist strands in both Protestant

and Catholic theology in the 20th Century.

Read Reinhold Niebuhr for Protestant and\or Michael Harrington for Catholic expressions of this.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

52. May I quote you? And post it !*everywhere*! ????

I'd KnR your post if I could

[Shadowflash]

97. Be my guest.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

63. Considering that the current pope used to run the Inquisition

(they changed the name twice for PR purposes), is it any surprise that today's cardinals and bishops are so anti-woman?

[Tigress DEM]

291. I don't think he's quite THAT old, but he was with Hitler's Youth Patrols.

Whenever I think Inquisition, I still think of the time when the Church and State were large and in charge and being excommunicated came with a death sentence. But you are referring to the "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" established in 1965 and still active today.

CDF does create the doctrine that is used to discriminate against gays so... definitely not a forward thinking part of the Church. Still the Pope's involvement in establishing or approving what is considered the Church's position on various issues is much different than the traditional image of torture and sentencing to death of all non-believers.

This group COULD be a lot more active in dealing with priests accused of pedophilia, after all Jesus did say that anyone who hurts little ones is basically scum. This group COULD do a lot of good if they would make a statement that GAY does NOT equal pedophile and would condemn sexual molestation of children as a fully separate issue.

They did find time to excommunicate a group of nuns that believe Mary the mother of Christ has been reincarnated. I can buy that as being against Church doctrine.

On September 28, 2007, Gaston Hebert, the then apostolic administrator of the Diocese of Little Rock stated that (per the July 11 Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) 6 Arkansas nuns were excommunicated for heresy (the first in the diocese's 165-year history). They refused to recant the doctrines of the Community of the Lady of All Nations (Army of Mary). The 6 nuns are members of the Good Shepherd Monastery of Our Lady of Charity and Refuge in Hot Springs. Sister Mary Theresa Dionne, 82, one of 6, said they will still live at the convent property, which they own. The sect believe that its 86-year-old founder, Marie Paule Giguere, is the reincarnation of the Virgin Mary.

Too bad they got all bent out of shape over Sister Jeannine Gramick's work with gays and lesbians. I think someday the Church will get it and her example will really show them how to heal the rift between the Church and homosexuals.

The Inquisition group, however it's called, is still a process by committee when you get down to it and change like this takes soooooo long. Still, as long as they aren't empowered to burn people at the stake, and people can choose another religion, it's not one of my top concerns. KEEPING Church and State separate so it can never happen again... BIG priority. (If you know what I mean....)

I did leave the Catholic Church and a big part of that decision was over the discrimination of gays by the Church. I still know a lot of Catholics that are working for Peace and Justice issues within their parishes even though it's an uphill battle.

I've met people I'd consider fundamentalists who would do for the poor or stand up for someone being oppressed for other reasons, but get all weird on this issue. They might not actually even be judgmental about the person, but still have a huge dollop of homophobia in their attitude. IE: Hate the sin, not the sinner.

I personally think that like other species on this planet, some people simply are born this way and it may even be related to over-population and survival. IF the Church et al weren't so concerned about letting every little sperm come to term, we wouldn't as humans NEED a gay population to help us survive on this planet. And I think we DO NEED the LGBT community to help us evolve. I've seen a lot of compassion and unselfish behavior from people who really get the shitty end of the stick in our society. I know gays and lesbians who are or would be as good of or better parent than I am. Quite the little heretic myself, I guess.

I still have faith that the Church will eventually see that so much more good can come of following Sister Jeannine Gramick's example of accepting people as they are, but they will probably be the last church on the band wagon.


Tig

[Zoeisright]

153. No kidding. I went to a parochial school in the early 1970s.

First time I was ever bullied. Those hateful brats thought that because they sat in church on Sunday they could be as mean as they wanted the rest of the time. And they were mean. I have rarely met a Christian who actually acts like one.

[blueamy66]

231. I went to Catholic school for 13 years....even pre-school

never met a better bunch of kids.....never bullied, even though I was 5'10" by the time I was in 7th grade, had no boobs, wore glasses and was skinny as a twig....sorry you had a bad experience, but I never dealt with hateful brats...don't pigeon-hole people....it just sux

We all still talk on Facebook and will be forever there for eachother....no matter what

[Tigress DEM]

293. I hope you meet a better class of Christian's some day.

I was raised Catholic, but went to public school in WA and CA. In 4th grade I had to fight my way out of a circle of kids in my first week, but after that I got left alone... until 8th grade. Sigh. That time they told me I was "jumped" into the gang. I told them "No thanks. I don't need other people to fight my battles for me."

In high school I had to walk through the hallways with rival gangs on each side. I made friends with both sides. "Hey, neutral party here, just passing through - save your 'A game' for each other". Dunno how I got away with it, but I did.

I hate it when people bully others. I used to walk people home and give the bullies some warnings about messing with my vertically challenged friends.

I knew a wonderful girl who got her head blown off just for flirting with a guy and not being able to duck when they shot at him. Did the guys who killed her go to confession afterward and think that made it ok? I don't know. Can even people like these change their ways? Yes. But someone has to show them a way out.

It IS sad when Christians don't act like Christians. We expect more from people who are supposed to be following the example of Christ.

It's my contention that a Christian's day to day life is the only Bible most people really read, so it's important to treat others with kindness always since you never know who might be watching you and hoping to see some evidence that the message of Christ really was heard and IS practiced by some people.

But you may have been treated well by Christians and just not know that the people who were good to you are Christians. I don't wear a cross - guess I should - or tell anyone I'm nice to, "By the way, I'm a Christian," unless it comes up in conversation otherwise.

So as an experiment, next time someone practices a random act of kindness and you are the beneficiary, ask them if they are a Christian. I'll pray that you get more than your share of kindness soon and that at least some of it comes from a Christian or two. Can't hurt, might help. lol.

Tig

[trotsky]

234. Here's a dirty little secret:

The more moderate ones AREN'T a majority. That's why they aren't able to be more vocal.

[Tigress DEM]

296. I disagree. It takes a lot of bravery to go up against the establishment.

There is so much to do these days - trying to keep a roof over one's head, raising a family, staying on top of what is really going on in this country --- and even as vocal as I am, I'm careful about the risks I take because I fear the very non-Christian people behind this whole smear campaign.

I have family to care for and people who count on me. I do the good that I can, where I can, but even as much as I'd like to do more the truth is I'm sometimes a target on this board by openly stating that I'm a Christian. It's like being at war with both sides - back to high school I guess.

Still, us moderate ones SHOULD speak up more. I've been to lots of churches and spoken to many Christians in and out of church settings. MOST Christians want to see people treated with respect and kindness even if they cling to teachings that are judgmental. As a Christian, we can simply bow out of judgment and leave that to the hierarchy and God to sort out. Matthew 7:1 Judge not lest ye be judged.

But this post has caused me to look up references and reminds me there are good examples of people who are fighting the good fight from within the system. Sister Jeannine Gramick is a good example.

Food for thought, an inspiration and possibly a good goad to add another task to the list of things that MUST be done to get this country back on track.

Tig

[trotsky]

318. "I fear the very non-Christian people behind this whole smear campaign"

Why do you think they are non-Christian?

Can only non-Christians be bad people? If you're a Christian you're automatically a good person and can never do anything bad, or perhaps even be sincere yet wrong about something?

[Taverner]

277. Yep

The only reason there are Liberal Christians is because of Liberal Theologians like Paul Tillich, who through reason and empathy, took the pure evil out of the Bible.

[Tigress DEM]

297. Never heard of him before but he seems like a thoughtful guy.

I wound up marrying a Lutheran, but we both have gone to Unity Church, which is more about being Christ-like than practicing Christianity from a traditional perspective.

I've being drawn to the church of my Dad's youth, Methodist, because there is an energy of service there which resonates with my need to actually "do" some good and not just think about it or talk about it.

My methodology of taking the "evil" out of the Bible is to ask, "What did Jesus say or do that is helpful in regards to this situation?"

I'm familiar with more of the Bible than just the New Testament, but when I need clarity, I go back to the example of Christ and use it as my litmus test.

Tig

[dimbear]

287. You have the correct view. There's no use looking into the past for a period when

the Christians were behaving themselves. It didn't happen that way. Christian history is continually being rewritten, but the gravest misdeeds can't be eradicated.

For a glimpse at the American scene almost a century ago, start with "Elmer Gantry."

[Tigress DEM]

300. Really? So then Americans are completely bad because of everything we've done too.

There have always been Americans that didn't behave themselves throughout our history. Does that mean that being an American is wrong at its very core?

Bunch of murders, thieves, liars, cheats - and those are just the leaders. Ask the Indians.

But just as there are Americans that have risen above their baser impulses and done good for this country, so are there Christians who have gone to great lengths to live in peace and respect with others.

Elmer Gantry - a satirical novel by Sinclair Lewis is your "proof"?
Certainly not up to DU standards, although I'm sure you could find enough proof in actual history. Here let me help.
The Borgia's come to mind.
Or Pope Benedict himself a great example of how NOT to make peace with the liberals in the world.


We can not undo the past, or make the religious leaders of our day understand common sense, but we can try to live better in the present - imperfect humans that we all are Christian or not. Still, not all the past of Christians is misdeeds and harm to their fellows.


http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/16824
By ENInews 11 Jul 2012
<snip> Churches and Christian charities have joined the massive relief effort in Assam state in the northeast region of India, which recently experienced a devastating flood that has claimed over 125 lives and left nearly three million people homeless.

<snip> As the CBCNEI mobilizes its congregations, Rimai said it will reach out to needy families, regardless of their faith. Later, it will commence rehabilitation work for affected Christian families.

"We have rushed emergency relief kits to 2,000 families in two of the worst-hit districts," said Satyjit Sen, chief zonal officer for eastern region of Churches Auxiliary for Social Action (CASA), a charity wing of the Orthodox and Protestant churches from Kolkatta.

Reaching targeted areas is a major problem, as roads have been damaged and even washed away, noted Sen, who said the government has asked CASA to help coordinate relief work in two districts of Barapata and Sonitpur.

More than 60 volunteers, already trained by CASA in disaster management, are helping people in the some of worst affected villages and assessing their requirements, said Sen.

Caritas India, a social action wing of the Roman Catholic church, has also initiated major relief work in coordination with local Catholic dioceses. It has facilitated emergency medical aid to more than 500 people.

Caritas India will also begin water and sanitation intervention, with an effort to increase awareness of health and hygiene, according to a press statement. Livelihood restoration and shelter repair will be initiated once the water recedes and families begin to return back to their villages.

******

http://www.wetzelchronicle.com/page/content.detail/id/511343/Methodist-Church-Offers-Building-For-Shelter--Food.html?nav=5001

<snip>
It looks like, thankfully, the end may be in sight though as more people are getting their electricity restored after the powerful storm that blew through on June 29 and left thousands without power.

The NMUMC opened their doors as a cooling station, shelter, and meal provider on Thursday at the request of the Wetzel County Emergency Management Agency. Pastor Melissa Shortridge said the EMA called desperate for help as the shelter at the Lewis Wetzel Family Center had other events booked for that space. The church gladly complied with the request. "My regret is that we didn't think of offering this service sooner," said Shortridge.

Individuals, churches, and the New Martinsville Ministerial Association donated food and funds for the endeavor.

"We've had a lot of take outs," said Smith, noted many people from more remote areas are taking meals to their neighbors in need.

******
Christians behaving like liberals, I tell you...
<snip>
The First United Methodist Church of Brandon is one of the center's host churches. The center is to provide a base for homeless families "to seek employment, housing, and other resources to help them regain their independence," according to the Facebook post.

Other churches involved in the effort are Bay Life Church, Brandon Christian Church, First Presbyterian Church of Brandon, First United Methodist of Brandon, First United Methodist of Seffner, Limona Village Chapel United Methodist Church, St. Andrew's United Methodist Church and Westminster Presbyterian Church of Brandon.


******
The ongoing struggle to be a liberal in the Catholic Church produces individuals that are icons for the struggle itself.

[dimbear]

302. Elmer Gantry is a fictional retelling of the actual scene as Lewis saw it.

It's not hard to dig up the individual historical cases he's dramatizing.

I'm sorry you feel Americans are all bad. I don't. I don't feel that Christians have made any big changes recently either. They've always been about what they are now.

It's very hard to keep up with Christian history, because Christians find it convenient to continually clean it up. That's not intellectually honest. I understand that Christians don't want to know their history, that's understandable, but it's not intellectually honest.

[Tigress DEM]

305. Right, but it's still fictional. I didn't say that "I" thought all Americans are bad.

Are you intentionally mis-quoting me and being intellectually dishonest yourself, or did you miss the point I was trying to make? I'm not sure, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

The point I was making is that people are people. Whether they are Christian or American or Atheists, they are people.

People do good things some times and bad things some times. Even an individual person does have their good days and bad days.

I'm not white washing anything about Christian history. I probably know at least as much about it as you do. Had a lot of conversations with a Druid who formerly studied to be a priest.

I'm not happy with a lot of CURRENT Christian activity among leadership or individuals.

BUT what I am trying to point out is that it is absolute BLINDNESS to NOT SEE any good that Christians do or have done as it would ALSO be blindness to not see any good that Americans have done and continue to do.

People are people. Putting someone in a group and labeling them as bad is prejudiced and very much an UN-DU thing to do.

So if you want to be taken seriously, Dimbear, take a look at your own prejudice and deal with it.

Tig

[dimbear]

310. You and I aren't very far apart, really. I intentionally misunderstood you because you

misunderstood me so much. Fair's fair.

Christians have certainly done a lot of good over the years. Nobody doubts that. Also a lot of bad. Nobody doubts that. In fact, people don't change much.

The OP is wrong, Christians haven't suddenly gone psycho. They've always had problems. And always had good points.

When Sinclair Lewis was preparing to write Elmer Gantry, he spent months going around to various churches and talking to sources. That's why the book rings so realistic. That's what got the book banned so often. It's still worth a read, even if it's long and drags a bit.

Whether or not you want to know Christian history is an important moral question. Only you know the answer, in my own case I try. The real story is out there, but hard to find because it's unpopular.

[Tigress DEM]

313. OK. In general we understand the human condition. That's good.

We don't know each other and intentionally muddying the waters when the other person is striving for clarity (maybe ineptly - sorry) doesn't help, whether it's fair or not - I don't know.

Charitably you say,

Christians have certainly done a lot of good over the years. Nobody doubts that.

But Dimbear, people ARE doubting it, all over the place.

I personally don't like Christmas Carols in October any more than my pagan counterparts, for a different reason, because I think the over-commercialization of a time I find holy is insulting. I'm NOT in the group that considers people asking that music like that be limited to an appropriate scope is an "attack on Christmas" but I do feel that there is a huge lash back at Christians who are in the room when a non-Christian feels like venting.

It's like getting pulled over for a DWB - Driving While Black, but the Christian equivalent.

I listen to Air America and watch progressive shows because I want to know what's going on with "our side" but I keep hearing that "my kind" is the real problem. Bill Maher can be funny, but he honestly gets a little carried away and Mike Malloy has lost it a few times.

Just think of how an atheist feels when the reich wing says that "godless liberals" are destroying America... but what if it weren't the FAUX News Network that can be so easily discounted because they are full on Cuckoo for coco puffs ... what if it was coming from people here on DU, supposed friends and allies?

Imagine standing side by side at a protest, maybe even moving to put your own self in danger to prevent a cop beating a fellow protester and then having that fellow protester start taking pot shots at you from behind for helping the po-po even while being the person taking the baton in the shins from the cop. I mean THAT is the level of unreality one experiences while here on DU as a Christian.

Again, I know that the Church has done awful things and is by and large at the top a huge political pawn of the Corptocracy. I am not trying to ignore that.

But the people here at DU who are Christians, aren't following their play book. It's cost a lot of people their faith community and even those that stay wind up getting killed from both sides. That doesn't feel fair. Sorry for the rant.

Tig

[dimbear]

315. Sign of the times............

We were fated to live through a time of upheaval.

I can certainly appreciate that trying to be a liberal Christian nowadays has a special burden.

See you over in religion.

[Tigress DEM]

288. I think this major influx goes back to David (KKK) Duke's 1992 loss

The people who really really wanted "equal representation" (that meant they could take over and turn this country into a clean white slate and upend all this racial equality crap) got pissed that their guy lost and went back to the side door dealings and brain washing methods.

He was someone who ran openly for President twice and his agenda is so present in the NEW rethug party, that it seems the KKK will continue to push that agenda wherever there is any vunerability thru any willing person, door, tv station etc....


The crusades and other political persecutions are top down decisions. The "ruling class" in the Church used to be made up of "excess nobility" and even if it is less now and the common person of faith's power more that it used to be, the decision making process does not go from the bottom up. So to blame a person of faith in the here and now for anything other than their own stupid decisions or uneducated opinions is being intolerant ourselves.


[link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Duke
|wiki/David_Duke]
<snip>
David Ernest Duke (born July 1, 1950) is a former Grand Wizard of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan an American activist and writer, and former Republican Louisiana State Representative. He was a candidate in the Democratic presidential primaries in 1988 and the Republican presidential primaries in 1992. Duke has unsuccessfully run for the Louisiana State Senate, U.S. Senate, U.S. House of Representatives, and Governor of Louisiana.

A former Grand Wizard of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan,[4][5] Duke describes himself as a racial realist, asserting that "all people have a basic human right to preserve their own heritage."[6] He is in strong opposition to what he asserts to be Jewish control of the Federal Reserve Bank, the federal government and the media. Duke supports stopping both legal and illegal Non-European immigration, preservation of what he labels Western culture and traditionalist Christian "family values", strict Constitutionalism, abolition of the Internal Revenue Service, voluntary racial segregation, ardent anti-communism and white separatism

[madrchsod]

5. they forget to pray in dark places...

[aethia]

7. They are afraid

They have been convinced that if any of their tenents of faith are proved wrong that their entire faith is invalid. They see threats from gays, evolution, abortion, other religions and they see this as a fight for their survival and animals fight hard, and dirty, for survival.

[RKP5637]

102. + 1,000 +++ n/t

[Thor_MN]

168. Conservatives tend towards binary thinking. Right/wrong. Black/white.

Everything is an absolute. Partial solutions are not allowed. They can't back down an inch without total collapse.

[patrice]

285. A habit so strong, so old, so ALL pervasive that they are almost completely unaware of it,

except in the latent anxiety for ALL that is excluded by that habit.

The result being a sense of threat from all that is unknown, i.e. Fear.

[blueamy66]

233. huge DISAGREE

I haven't thought about "my tenets of faith being proved wrong or that my entire faith will be proven invalid." That's a bunch of horseshit.

I am not threatened by gays, evolution, abortion or other religions.

So, your sad freaking argument is INVALID.....like you said my faith was.

[patrice]

280. I think aethia is referring to in general, on average and you are referring to one specific case/you

A single case does not dis-"prove" a hypothesis.

If we could take all "Christians" and measure their fear of being "proven" wrong, an empirically rational approach to that effort would likely show us: a relatively few Christians with almost pure high fear of being proven wrong; a relatively few Christians with almost pure low fear of being proven wrong; and a by far greater majority of Christians with some mix of the two responses, fear:no-fear, varying from high fear:low no-fear to low fear:high no-fear, with the determining factors being some kind of situational variables that would need further evaluation in order to identify any commonalities and differences.

[Tigress DEM]

306. Part of the difficulty is the Right/Wrong concept itself. There is a middle too.

Part of the Christian teaching is that God is a God of Love. So people who live in that zone aren't living in fear at all. Right? Wrong? Who cares? There are people to feed and lonely people who don't know the love of God or the kindness of others. The things the OP listed as basic stuff Jesus did are "right enough" to keep most Christians busy.

A lot of Christians have had to simplify our belief structure and aren't attached to the multiple contradictory aspects of believing every single word in the Bible as complete and indisputable truth. Lutherans, Unitarians. None of it is necessarily perfect; but what is?

There is a term for Catholics I heard a while ago that applies to Catholics who pick and choose what to believe and what to discard or leave alone; Cafeteria Catholics. I'm sure it's considered derogatory by many, but I know some who are proud to call themselves that because they are thinking Catholics and have no easy answer for the contradictions, but have faith that it will all work out eventually. They are more concerned with doing good and keeping their own noses clean than being politically in line with the Pope.

I left the Catholic Church because that felt dishonest to me, but I was pretty much a cafeteria catholic before I left. Realize too that Vatican II in 1965 changed a lot of things, but things swung back to conservative in the late '90's so I had to choose to adjust myself to the Church's changes or stay true to the beliefs I had growing up. Staying true to myself meant leaving the Church.

But in my mind and heart, my personal relationship with Christ wasn't something I picked up and left behind at church. It is something that is mine and it goes with me wherever I go. I was born to my parents at a hospital and moved with them until I was 18, but they were no less my parents when I moved out and started living independently. God is no less my God because I left the church where I met Him and made my commitment to Him.

Tig

[patrice]

308. Reads as though you may be like me, in love with the mystery that we Catholics used to call the

Mystical Body of Christ.

We talked about how anyone of any religion could "go to heaven". Though my understanding of what "go to heaven" means has changed quite a bit, I still believe that principle.

Apparently, to some, that was just a Vatican II thing, politically incorrect now.

[Tigress DEM]

309. I relate to Republicans who think their party actually deserted them.

I became a Catholic after Vatican II and when they decided to take most of it back... I left. It's a lot of what I loved about being Catholic and I went to all those ecumenical rallies and associated with people of many faiths and none... because in my mind God loves the whole world (no exceptions).

I'm here to do the job(s) Jesus gave me, the rest is none of my business.


The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe by C.S. Lewis..... vague memory of a character that was "with the bad guys but lived his life with such honor that when he died he went to heaven."

Got into the "Communion of Saints" after that I think.

Tog

[patrice]

311. I'm happy to have met you, Tigress DEM!

It seems clear to me that you know what "... bread... which earth has given and human hands have made ..." IS.

Sat nam!

[Tigress DEM]

314. Glad someone is!!

[patrice]

281. Agree, on average. The last emotion to disappear from a living brain/nervous system is Fear.

Makes sense, since fear serves survival so well, but that also means that it is the deepest "coding", the most "hard-wired" of all experiential responses and we might guess therefore, the most dominantly powerful. The one emotion most capable of blocking the most other response patterns.

[Tigress DEM]

304. I'm afraid, but not of the things you mentioned.

There may be some fundamental Christians who are though.

I'm afraid of the manipulators at the corporate and political levels who see churches as just one more place to sell propaganda. The fear mongers who make it about US against THEM.

Even the fearful uninformed fundie at the ground level might be able to change if we got the MSM back to reporting facts instead of fear-based nonsense and the Congress back to the business of getting America working again WITHOUT all the corporate manipulations behind the scenes.

What would help is less hate overall. When someone is backed into a corner, attacking them is what they expect and are ready for and gives them and excuse to fight all the harder.

More facts presented about how liberals are the best stewards of allowing people to survive and believe as they choose as long as they don't infringe on other's rights to believe as they choose and less labeling of what is "wrong" with THEM would be my suggestion.

Tig

[malthaussen]

8. Since Saul of Tarsus, actually.

However, I'm assuming you're referring to a more recent phenomenon.

What you are witnessing in the Christian church is broadly similar to what is happening in the Republican Party, and is a direct outgrowth of their unholy alliance in the 1970's that brought us Reagan and the start to the downward spiral our country has taken. Broadly speaking, the authoritarians have grabbed firm control and are driving away everyone who does not conform to their desires. Those remaining within the fold become increasingly more shrill, entrenched, and immoveable, and as the moderate voices are expelled, increasingly extreme and fanatical.

That's my take on it, anyway. As to what enabled the authoritarians to take such a firm grip, I'd guess it has something to do with a growing fear of becoming irrelevant. We have been going through a reactionary period much longer than the period of revolution which preceded it, possibly because the revolution (revolutions, actually) kicked over so many applecarts at once.

-- Mal

[yardwork]

14. It has to do with the loss of U.S. empire, too.

Things are contracting in the U.S. as the corporations abandon any pretense of national loyalty and seek out the lowest wages on the global market. We're moving away from nationalism and into the age of corporations.

I think about that old film Rollerball a lot.

[villager]

47. I think about that original Rollerball a lot, too. It doesn't get enough credit...

...for nailing where things were headed....

[Plucketeer]

74. I do think thatr's one facet of it

Gotta be hard to swallow that that old American Standard of a company closed up shop in Littleville, USA and sent your job to Mexico or China. Heh - at least your GOD hasn't pulled up stakes on ya!

[amerciti001]

146. Don't be surprised when the mega churches...

start to incorporate, after all these Big Mega Churches are, after all-Businesses. See how Franklin Graham has taken over for his dad-Billy Graham!? Keep it in the family.

[yardwork]

147. They have to be a little careful to protect their tax-exempt status. Not much, but a little.

[zeemike]

42. It was the root of all evil that enabled them.

I saw it happen back in the late 60s and 70s...knew some of them....and it was the start of the mega church and the TV ministries that had great financial reward...The money changes took over the temple.

[freshwest]

108. That was what I was going to say. All warped to stay/get rich, idolizing the rich. Saw it up close.

[handmade34]

152. "prosperity theology"

http://marriedwithdebt.com/2012/06/creflo-dollar-joel-osteen-and-the-prosperity-gospel/

Called prosperity theology or prosperity Gospel, the movement stresses personal achievement and development as a way to achieve the Christian God’s dominion over society. The movement gained steam in the 1950s and 1960s as Americans began to achieve postwar prosperity and grow their families.

http://www.heprayed.com/PracticalDevotions/41

[Manifestor_of_Light]

263. Joel Osteen receives over $10K a day in donations.

Yet does not contribute one cryin' dime to charity that I know of.

[turtlerescue1]

89. Aye malthaussen you've said it clearly.

Perhaps they've grown so self righteously arrogant they lack the ability to laugh at themselves. It looks like the Emperor's New Clothes, the crowd so intimidated they can't speak the obvious truths. Maybe the need to feel Special, greater? Perplexes me, when the one thing to know and understand is Humility.

Am ELCA Lutheran, we've some members who irritate me and who I irritate for their perceptions, for the most part most lack the biases; prejudices; legalism and frankly that arrogance of being "all knowing"; "all perfectly correct' and "all powerful".

Still I do wonder who is the puppet and who is the puppeteer?

[Bohunk68]

199. I too, am an ELCA

Lutheran and had been doing Disaster Recovery work. Have been suspended from same by the haters for having the audacity to touch a closet queen on the shoulder. Under investigation for sexual harassment. My pastor and many others think it is nothing more than a witch hunt because I bring up items that many would wish to remain hidden.

Went to the Faerie Festival (a bunch of wiccan and celtic types) and had a wonderful time Saturday. Felt like I was with really living and caring people. The hugs from shirtless men who called me "brother" didn't hurt either.

[Tom Ripley]

92. Unfortunately, he was the most eloquent scumbag whoever lived

[Zorra]

107. +1. IMO, too many people mistake selfishness, and ruthlessness, as signs of good leadership skills.

"Fundamentalism is the triumph of Paul over Christ."--Will Durant

(Caveat: I do not consider myself to be a Christian, but I'm quite sure that I genuinely understand far more about essential Christianity than any RW fundamentalist christian.)

In the history of Christianity, we see instance after instance, ad nauseum, of murderous, evil, authoritarian sociopaths gaining control of people's minds and actions.

It's basic group dynamics.

Authoritarians take power and control over groups by being selfish, aggressive, and ruthless. Too many people are cowed by by bullies. Instead of standing up to them, they submit. Far too many people are insecure and under confident, and frightened by bullies, and are afraid to challenge their authority. That's why Christ has been usurped by Paul, and why most Democrats won't stand with Occupy to remove the 1% from power. (Occupy recognizes that individual authoritarians will eventually assume control of Occupy if not prevented from doing so. Our fail-safe mechanism for preventing this is our non-wavering insistence on collective leadership. And this is also why so many Democrats have a problem with the collective leadership ideal of Occupy. They need an authority figure, a queen or king, to shepherd them, and cannot conceive of living life without an authoritarian leader.)

IMO, it's the same with fundy Christians, when viewed in the context of material reality vs. the reality of the Christ Consciousness. Instead of recognizing their own metaphysical leadership of the collective, of what is often called the "Body of Christ" ("I am the Vine, you are the Branches&quot , the connection with the Christ consciousness (being "Born Again of the Spirit&quot that exists in each member of the Body, they delegate authority over their beliefs to an authoritarian person, most often a male, - ie Paul, an authoritarian Pope, a Pastor, a Bishop, whatever, and give up their faith and belief in the Spirit of Christ and any possibility of genuine real time interaction with a Living Deity to the authority of flawed, often very egotistical, men, and the Bible. They abandon the "Love of Christ" for the authoritarian material precepts and approval of Saul of Tarsus and his modern day representatives, the interpretation of Paul's words respective to their sect, and what has primarily become Paul's doctrine, the book known as the Christian Bible.

Anyway, that's only my very humble and incomplete POV on this, as someone with maybe too much time on their hands and who has always been interested in history, politics, theology, and metaphysics, as vehicles for attempting to gain a better perspective on the conditions that exist today, and those that may exist in the future.

Why Nice Guys Don't Make It to the Top

The first two experiments found that selfishness and displays of 'out-group hate' - unnecessarily depriving the members of another group - boosted dominance but decreased respect and admiration from others. In contrast, showing in-group love - generously sharing resources with fellow group members - increased respect and admiration but decreased dominance.

The third experiment found that "universalism" - that is, sharing one's resources with both in-group members and outsiders - had the most dire net outcomes on a person's status. The researchers discovered that universal generosity decreased perceptions of both prestige and dominance compared with those who shared resources only with members of their group.

In short, being generous can boost prestige if an individual is selectively generous to his or her own group; this increases respect and admiration from others. However, being selfish or belligerent (unnecessarily harming members of another group) decreases respect and admiration from others but it increases perceptions of personal dominance.

The intriguing consequence is that dominant individuals were more likely than prestigious individuals to be elected as a representative for the group in a mock competition with another group. Thus, being too nice can have negative consequences for leadership.

"For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous." (1 John 3:11-12).

Historical Quotes Concerning Paul and his doctrines from Historians, Philosophers and Theologians:

<<<>>>

[malthaussen]

249. Intriguing response, sorry I wasn't around when you made it.

I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with the "direct relationship to the creator" which was embodied in primitive Christianity. (Friends and other "enthusiasts" excepted, of course) It's part of the basic human design flaw: we bend too easily at the knees (thanks, Pratchett). Those of us who don't -- as indicated in the piece of research you cite -- are in for a wild ride of it at least.

Interesting paper you quote. I always like research that backs up what I have long suspected independently. One of the implications drawn, that the individual who strives to promote the success of neither himself nor the group loses both status and prestige within the group, carries with it some heavy implications about the question of whether humans are ever gonna just learn to get along.

Another inescapable conclusion is this: so long as the group "feels threatened," it will promote the type-A-for-asshole every time. Terrorism Meter, anyone?

-- Mal

[Manifestor_of_Light]

264. I had a dog named Cain.

He slew his brother (new puppy in a six month younger litter).

[DevonRex]

139. I agree wholeheartedly. Great post.

Peter was supposed to lead the church. Instead, they ignored his writings and went with that old homophobic, woman hating Paul.

[yardwork]

144. Hey DevonRex! Long time no see!

How ya doin?

[DevonRex]

149. Hey yardie!

I'm hanging in there, barely. But barely is quite the achievement some days. .

[quakerboy]

226. Interesting interpretation

Although I think you are wrong. Saul the Hebrew was the mean type. Change him to Paul the Christians, and while he still had a bit of authoritarian bent, he wasn't to my knowledge chasing down others to punish

In my opinion, one of the worst things that ever happened to Christianity was its acceptance by the Roman Empire. The second worst would be its acceptance by the American Empire. Second only because the first had already set that mold. Go back before that, and you are looking at a different type of organization completely, one that looks nothing like anything we see today in groups proclaiming to be christian. The whole group of them(us) has been effectively corrupted by power. To the point it is now assumed and inherent in almost all Christian brands and franchise locations.

[malthaussen]

250. The way I interpret the NT tells me there was a helluva power struggle going on

... inside the Church after Yeshua died. Saul muscled in on James, who appears not to have been equipped to handle the challenge. But given the differences between the non-canonical gospels and the ones that made it into the NT, I think that there was a lot going on about which we don't know. Just love the end of the Magdalene gospel, where Levi essentially tells Simon that the latter is an ass. That's one that needs to be widely published, especially given conditions today:

"3) Peter answered and spoke concerning these same things.

4) He questioned them about the Savior: Did He really speak privately with a woman and not openly to us? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did He prefer her to us?

5) Then Mary wept and said to Peter, My brother Peter, what do you think? Do you think that I have thought this up myself in my heart, or that I am lying about the Savior?

6) Levi answered and said to Peter, Peter you have always been hot tempered.

7) Now I see you contending against the woman like the adversaries.

8) But if the Savior made her worthy, who are you indeed to reject her? Surely the Savior knows her very well."

Interesting bit of gospel (or pseudo-gospel, if you prefer), since the common perception is that Saul was the big misogynist in the crew. Obviously, Simon (and his brother Andrew) were also not fond of women; of course the former had wife troubles to begin with.

Which doesn't really have much to do with your point about Saul the Hebrew vs Paul the Christian. We don't really disagree here. I think Saul allowed his meanness to infect the Christians, but I do agree that he apparently put aside his persecution rags after he fell off his mule on the road to Damascus. The OP was asking, however, when meanness started to infect Christianity, not specifically when persecution did. I think it must have been there from the get-go (and I bet the "true" story of Yeshua's mission would make terrific reading), but that Saul, by his eloquence and example, and due to some significant character flaws in his rivals, institutionalized it. But the NT is a pretty sparse book, and I think a whole lot must have been going on that we'll never know about.

Once the Empire put its finger in, agreed, that opened the gates to the kind of dominance dynamics that Zorra mentions upthread. Indeed, in light of the piece of research he references, the rise of meanness in the Christian church would have occurred anyway, due to the threatening conditions under which they labored. Or, in other words, if Saul hadn't existed, it would have been necessary to invent him.

-- Mal

[Tigress DEM]

316. Saul/Paul is not my favorite, but some of his oppression of women....

Paul's oppression of women was part of the time he lived in. Women were either harlots or protected by their men. Women were seated in the back of the sanctuary because men were supposed to be doing the heavy lifting with prayer and sacrifice etc...

1300 years later in Europe you have marriage as transferring a woman into a man's possession as property and today everyone is fighting to have the rights conferred on married persons because it's working better than other options.

The problem is that it's hard to grow into new evolutions of humanity and not lose the intrinsic value of the lessons in the Bible or even history in general because we tend to look through our current cultural lenses at the past. But we know so much more now than they knew then.

Jesus fought against the powers that be and stood with the people who were oppressed and said "Do onto others as you would have them do unto you." He encouraged us to treat people NOT as they treat me and you, but TEACH them to treat us better by being the example. Standing here in history looking back, it makes a lot of sense, but we've seen it work. It's still fairly revolutionary.

Tig

[yardwork]

9. 1970s. The Republicans figured out a way to stay in power by coopting churches.

It worked. The "Moral Majority" elected Reagan in 1980 and their power has increased exponentially since then. The strategy was brilliantly successful. As you note, the mega churches are machines to influence people to back the Republican agenda - "or you'll go to hell!" - and once people believe something at that level it is very difficult to budge them. Millions of Americans have been literally brainwashed into rejecting facts, science, logic, and basic human decency. They believe an alternate version of reality.

Hate radio spreads the brainwashing beyond the churches. I have relatives who haven't been inside a church in decades if ever and they believe all the same hateful things as the churched in your family. The only difference is that they hear it on the radio instead of from the pulpit, and instead of being threatened with hell, they are stoked with fears that undeserving people will take away their homes and lives. There is no reasoning with them.

[Overseas]

45. Well said. I agree.

[russspeakeasy]

61. +1...Well done.

[RKP5637]

105. Exactly!!! The "faithful" will blindly follow, it attracts a lemming type personality IMO. n/t

[Tigress DEM]

321. Partially true, but an over generalization

You don't wind up with approximately 38,000 Christian denominations if every "faithful" follower was a lemming type.

Tig

[RKP5637]

324. That's a good point in that differentiation. Wow, there are really 38,000 Christian denominations ..

I had no idea.

[SunSeeker]

141. Spot on. The Right's "Southern Strategy" pales in comparison to their "Christian Strategy."

[liberalmuse]

206. Yes, this!

I remember this well (the "Moral" "Majority" rearing its ugly head back in the '70's), and have been saying this in the past few weeks after trying to figure out how we got to this point - how so many Americans came to adopt "values" that are the opposite of what I remember being taught growing up.

After having been raised one and dealing with them, I have no use for self-proclaimed "Christians". IMO, they are the absolute worst of humanity. You have to realize their main motive in being nice to you is because they are trying to convert you so they can get a material reward in heaven, like a crown or a mansion. Once they realize you will not convert, they are just nasty. There are people I know who quietly go to church and just try to live what Jesus taught. They don't remind everyone at every turn that they are Christian, because they don't need to. They don't continually say, "Praise the Lord" and "Hallelujah" or, "I'll pray for you". I am not talking about these people.

[VOX]

312. Wow. You nailed it, yardwork, dead center. Excellent post. n/t

[DCBob]

10. They certainly arent acting like Christians.

far from it. They need to re-read the "Sermon on the Mount"..

"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake."

The rest is here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5-7%3A27&version=KJV

[coalition_unwilling]

17. You forgot "Blessed are the cheesemakers" (my shout-out to

Monty Python fans and our Wisconsin brothers and sisters

[DCBob]

24. Not sure that was part of the original sermon but it sounds good.

[coalition_unwilling]

29. From Monty Python's "Life of Brian" (which has

its moments, altho I prefer "The Holy Grail&quot .

[DCBob]

32. I never saw "Life of Brian"

"The Holy Grail" is hilarious.

[coalition_unwilling]

53. Won't spoil LoB for you except to say that, if

you see it with a bunch of rowdy and drunken U. of Wisconsin students, the 'Blessed are the cheesemakers' line brings down the house

[DCBob]

55. Ive have partied with some former UW grads many years ago and I can only imagine.

cheers!

[panzerfaust]

56. One of the best speeches ever made - pretty long too

have always sorta wondered how His Words have been able to come down to us verbatim, since it is pretty long and only given the one time.

Just another miracle I suppose.

[DCBob]

60. There is tremendous wisdom in those words.

None better in my opinion.

[Moonwalk]

69. Problem is, when they read such, they see THEMSELVES, not others as the blessed ones...

I mean, there's your problem right there. They think they are mourning (for the moral degradation of this country), they think they are meek, they think they hunger and thirst after righteousness, they think they are merciful (to those who deserve mercy--like, say, someone who was liberal, saw the light and asks forgiveness, right?). They think they are pure in heart, they even think they are "peacemakers" (they aren't causing class warfare!). And they absolutely think they are being persecuted for righteousness sake, reviled and having evil done against them falsely.

So, there's no use having them re-read this in hopes they'll see the light. When they read it, they cast themselves as the blessed ones, not as the ones doing the persecuting. This is the problem with trying to change people's minds with literature. Unlike science, which pretty much forces you to see the evidence, like it or not, literature allows you to see whatever you want to see. Christ, after all, doesn't define what 'righteousness" is, and so anyone can define themselves to victory using this.

[fxmakeupguy]

99. You're so right, Moonwalk!

When you are trying to rationalize with someone who "knows that they are right", the facts don't matter. They will find a way to become the victim. How else to explain how so many of the 99% truly believe that cutting taxes (yet again) for the rich is going to help THEM? Between Faux News and right-wing nut job radio, they have been convinced that THEY are the meek, the persecuted, the blessed, etc. and -- sadly -- no rational facts are going to dispel their beliefs. Makes me sad, actually. I was and am a liberal Democrat in a vast family of conservative Repubs and have always been the one to be able to converse calmly and factually with my relatives -- even occasionally winning one over. At least I've been able to make them see that those of us on "the other side" aren't some demonic beasts set out to destroy them. But in the last 20+ years, I've noticed many of their views hardening to the point that they won't even LISTEN or even have a simple conversation without spewing Limbaugh-esque retorts to everything. (sigh) Like I said, it makes me sad. I haven't given up hope, but it's getting harder for those of us who truly believe in facts and compromise and at least LISTENING to each other to see the progress of our country getting better. I don't much like the idea that we have yet to hit rock bottom before we can start getting better... Sorry to be so verbose, but this whole thread struck a nerve (hell, a whole plexus!). Keep up the good fight!

[RKP5637]

123. Well said!!! Often I wonder where it's going to end, some type of

fundy-religious dystopia or what ... Sometimes I'm concerned open warfare will eventually develop ... or some type of regionalization. The country is getting so divided and sides so hardened.

[Ghost of Huey Long]

162. But there's more! like how do they explain this in relation to their relentless search for wealth

at the expense of all others?

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

[Moonwalk]

270. I would imagine that they if they are giving their money to the church...

They can claim to be laying up treasures in heaven for themselves, can't they? Let's remember that most religious fundies aren't wealthy. They do give their money to their church.

[Ghost of Huey Long]

163. They have no explanation for their 'praying' in public, applauding themselves for being so 'holy'

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Sorry, not trying to be difficult, but I have contemplated these questions often and wonder...how the hell do they explain this to themselves?


I don't actually think most 'christians' read the bible.

I was raised catholic, and they would read once sentence per week, that is it. The rest was repetitive prayers, singing etc.

Since leaving the church, I have read the bible in it's entirety and I love it!! I wish these people followed their own teachings let me tell you!!

[Moonwalk]

271. Certainly a tougher one for them to explain away, but--

In the alms part, they might well claim that they don't trumpet how much they give to their church. Or to anti-abortion causes. Or to anti-gay-marriage causes.

And they may well argue that they aren't praying to be seen, but praying where they need to pray in order the their prayers be heard by sinners so that they stop sinning. Believe me, I can argue away any pronouncement in the Bible, especially if I'm allowed to cherry pick. I mean, if we're going to go for problematic, let's just take the fact that Christians argue away eating pork because they say those commandments were for the Israelites only--not for non-Jewish converts like them. Yet, somehow, they're eager to post the 10/Commandments which, arguably, were also only for the Hebrews. People always want to have it both ways when it comes to religion--they find passages or excuses to do what they want to do, and passages that condemn what they don't like others doing.

[Tigress DEM]

319. I thought that was why they are against campaign contribution transparency.

See that way their major alms go out quietly and un noticed.

Just in case there was any doubt.

Although I personally haven't read every bit of the Bible when I was going to Catholic Church regularly they always had 3 readings from the Bible. The 1st Reading and it was always from the Old Testament, the 2nd Reading which was picked for the particular day and might be Old or New Testament and the Gospel which was always from Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.

I moved to Minnesota and it was the same for the most part, but I went to one parish that is actually kind of progressive and they had substituted the 1st and 2nd readings with poetry and Ernie Larson stuff! Definitely the wrong program going on there. Nothing against Ernie, but 1 hour a week is set aside to be there with God and Ernie isn't MY God.

OK, the Old Testament is often contradictory to the teachings of Jesus, but it still had merit and the Priests I grew up with did a good job during their homilies of explaining the historical context so we could relate to how it helped the people at the time to get through their struggles. They also gave us pieces of the Gospel we could apply in the here and now so what I heard, I remembered (at least for that week!)

I've done some Bible studies too, and will read on my own here and there, but you are right, a lot of Christians don't read the full Bible.

UNFORTUNATELY the Fundies tend to be the ones who do read and memorize it, often along with the flavor of their leader. IF that leader is warped.... sigh, it isn't a good thing.

I do remember Jesus in the desert being tempted by the Devil - who as it turns out knows Bible verses quite thoroughly - and having the Devil bait Jesus to turn rocks into bread in the middle of a fast and prayer time and when that didn't work, offered him worldly power, then challenged him to take a leap of faith and let God send angels to catch him.

Jesus' responses
A that man doesn't live by bread alone, but by every word of God
B 1st commandment
C that we are not supposed to go about tempting or testing God

A GOOD fundie church will teach their congregation to understand the whole Bible in light of living as Jesus did and prepare them to NOT be tempted.

I don't necessarily see money itself as the root of all evil because it can be used for good, but I can see those who will take money to do what they call "good works" and using it to destroy life for others as being people that are making a choice to be evil and clothe themselves in false respectability. Thus the praying publicly to allay doubts of their piousness - so much easier than actually being pious in the first place.


Tig

[trotsky]

235. Precisely. Brilliantly stated.

It all comes down to one's personal interpretation, and the bible lets you be pretty loose with that.

[Nevernose]

12. I've been hearing more "prosperity gospel" lately

As in the last few years. It's self-explanatory, basically that the more you love Jesus, the more wealth you will accumulate, and that your reward isn't in heaven, it's here on Earth. Totally against everything in the New Testament, but most people haven't ever read and contemplated that book anyway; whatever some preacher told them is good enough.

It used to be that it was a transparent get rich quick scheme ("give money to the church and Jesus will reward you!&quot , but in recent years it seems to have morphed into a self-help scam. It all goes perfectly with the idolization of the one percent.

[oldhippydude]

64. several times when channel surfing..

i have paused on Joyce Myer.. last time i looked she had over a hundred classes you could purchase.. the Christians remind me of the old pink Cadillac, Mary Kay cosmetics people

[YOHABLO]

171. Joyce Myer .. What a brassy broad.

Man she'd got it all together now, doesn't she. Just filling up those aisles full of folk with pen in hand, writing down their notes to take home and study. Who knew a Nazi prison camp guard could have such an impact.

[CrispyQ]

79. God has some of the nicest houses on the planet. --nt

[Aerows]

13. Salem Witch Trials

ring a bell? The Inquisition?

Religion has ALWAYS been this way.

[yardwork]

16. It's interesting that your post appeared right after #12 because those were land grabs!

The Salem Witch trials resulted in a significant amount of land being transferred from the accused into the possession of the accusers, who became even more wealthy and powerful after they murdered, er, executed the "witches" - most of whom were widows who had inherited property.

The Inquisition same thing on a larger scale.

[Aerows]

84. Indeed they were :)

It is funny that that one was posted while I was posting mine. It's pretty transparent, though, that much of religion is about accumulating wealth for those in the upper echelons and "it's pious to suffer in poverty for your faith" for everyone else.

[NavyDavy]

110. and the church in the dark/middle ages creating the modern marriage was for gaining land....

[rucky]

18. I call it Tabloid Christianity

it gives 'em juicy topics to get worked up about, and it's a moneymaker.

[AsahinaKimi]

19. I used to hate being hounded while walking down the street

after someone found out I was Buddhist. I had so many try to convert me on the spot, it was ridicules! The worst was while walking down Hollywood blvd with friends. We had just come from the Egyptian Theater, when people seemed to come out of no where asking us if we were aware of "Jesus's love"...etc. I made the bad mistake of saying, sorry..I am Buddhist and you would have thought they just found a huge Nugget of California gold!


When I lived a few years in Salt Lake City, I tried to never tell anyone my religion. Maybe people would just assume I was like them. But if the word got out, within three or four days, Mormon missionaries would be at my door..trying to convert me. I simply told them I was happy with how I was, and thanks for their concern. One got so frustrated and yelled, "You will go to hell..." to which I replied, "We really don't believe in that!"

[coalition_unwilling]

21. Bwa-ha-ha. Great Mormon story. I would have said I hoped to return as a flea

Last edited Sun Jul 1, 2012, 11:22 AM - Edit history (1)

to bite Mitt Romney in the ass

I know, I know, that's not very Buddhist (or Christian) of me, but still . . .

[RegieRocker]

27. Good for you!

You have a right to believe what you want. I, quite the opposite, would find you interesting. I've never met a Buddhist before.

[AsahinaKimi]

28. Heh!!

There are plenty of us in the Buddhism Group! I haven't posted there in a while.. but there are many there who do!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1249

[RegieRocker]

30. Are you being cynical

after I praised your actions? I meant in person.

[geckosfeet]

34. You probably have met buddhists. Just did not know it.

[AsahinaKimi]

36. You are sweet but..

I don't meet people off the internet! Come to San Francisco, there are plenty of Asian ladies, many of whom are Buddhist!

[RegieRocker]

37. No no no

I wasn't proposing meeting you. Geez. I was merely stating that I would like to have a lengthy conversation with a Buddhist.

[AsahinaKimi]

39. try this..

http://www.buddhanet.info/wbd/country.php?country_id=2

[MrTwister]

167. "You will go to hell . . . "

and you Mormon missionary will be reborn a thousand times as an irritating fly.

[coalition_unwilling]

22. Believe it or not, there was a time back in the 1940s and 50s when

both Protestant and Catholic theology featured strongly liberal and leftist strands.

I'm thinking about writers like Reinhold Niebuhr (Protestant) and Michael Harrington (Catholic).

Just like the mainstream of the Democratic Party remained utterly silent during the brutal police crackdowns on Occupy last fall and winter, so too the mainstream of the Democratic Party to its everlasting shame participated in smashing Socialist and Communist alternatives in this country back in the 40s and 50s. Need I say more?

[Iggy]

38. That's Because

both Protestant and Catholic theology featured strongly liberal and leftist strands

That's partly because we had just come thru a Depression where it was clear our particular brand of capitalism
was a giant failure for tens of millions of Americans.

were in the same position again. however this time religious "leaders" are for the most part appallingly
MIA. the only religious people I see coming out against the terminal wars of choice are the Quakers, who have
no formal leadership.

[coalition_unwilling]

41. In some of the early protests against bombing Afghanistan and

Operation Shocking and Awful, I bumped into some members of Catholic Worker (Michael Harrington's old outfit). And, IIRC, the Bread Not Bombs group has some Protestant support. Also, should mention Tikkun and Michael Lerner, altho he became persona non grata at some of the anti-war events because of Israel-Palestine issues.

But I largely concur with your assessment. A moment of shame for Christian denominations almost equal that of the Crusades and the concordat with Hitler, imo.

[RegieRocker]

25. It has always been that way

Does not matter if it's religion or political, way too many people will follow psychopaths and become one themselves. Brainwashing or mob mentality, it makes no difference. The people that fall for this were never truly good in the first place. Most religions have a history some place in time where they persecuted and killed thousands. So have non religious political movements. Perception and justification is at the heart of the matter. A person needs to step back and look at the overall picture. It's not Christians, it's not Muslims, it's not Jews etc. It's people. The I (ego) is the problem. Me me me. The connectivity that you are referring to is evil, not good.

There are no good churches or pastors (the pastor should not be living on GOD's money and the money collected should be used solely in the church community). It's all about the money. The opposite of Christ teachings and many other founders of religion.

The first step in confronting a problem one has, is recognizing they have a problem. The problem isn't religion. It's humans. You can't help to solve the problem by blaming it on religion. That thinking is the basis of the war on drugs. This is an across the board problem and until most humans realize their condition and decide to do something about it, nothing will change. Don't further exacerbate the problem.

[Live and Learn]

117. Very good post. nt

[RKP5637]

127. Excellent analysis!!! n/t

[KurtNYC]

202. I'm going to disagree, slightly. It isn't humans so much as humans in GROUPS

Humans in groups often behave very badly. The grouping often demands conformity and a common enemy.

As for individual humans, and I have met many, I believe as Anne Frank did: "Despite everything, I believe that people are really good at heart."

[7wo7rees]

26. Read this

[CrispyQ]

88. "It" by Stephen King, was the scariest book I'd ever read,

until I read "American Fascists."

It should be required reading. The media should be reporting on this but there is taboo in our culture, against questioning anything that claims to be religious.

[RKP5637]

129. Yep, say the God word in America, spout some Jesus, thump the bible a

bit and you get a free pass for just about anything. It's ridiculous and dangerous.

[undeterred]

31. Since they were hijacked by right wing politicians.

Before Rove and Poppy decided to go after the fundies, politics was not discussed in these churches. The right wing corrupts everything it touches.

[Harmony Blue]

33. They became hateful

when fundamental Christianity was accepted in the United States. It is easy to digest, requires not critical thought or understanding the metaphors/similies found in the Bible.

Fundamental Christianity is an empty void which lacks the spirituality.

[RKP5637]

130. And that empty void they had has been filled with evilness and hatred. n/t

[Iggy]

35. When they started listening to reich wing radio...

I think the number is 84% of Americans who say they believe in God.

IMHO, half of that number are lying, and/or belong in what I call the "selective" Christian category, i.e.
"Christians" who are in reality selfish bigots, and conveniently adhere to a few teachings of Jesus/the
Bible while totally ignoring other important teachings.

most of these con artists also claim to be "fiscally conservative", yet have no problem with our massively
bloated defense budget, corporate welfare (for white people only) and are Ok with Dumbya creating an
entirely new, expensive, and more or less useless Dept (Homeland Security).

the disconnects/hypocrisy is too large to ignore, and needs to be called out at every opportunity

[mercymechap]

82. I think you are spot on with your

"When they started listening to reich wing radio..." the hate that is spewed out and done in such a manner as to appear informative rather than hateful by Beck, Hannity and others on Faux News got them thinking they were being too complacent and they started becoming more vocal. Limbaugh doesn't even try to disguise it as informative, he encourages them to be hateful. In my opinion, it has become more about Republican ideology being "right" because they abhor homosexuals, abortion, and other things considered sin and feel it is their job to make everyone obey. Just because Jesus told us to spread Christianity, they have ignored His methods and instead want to hit everyone with a 2X4 if they don't agree. It truly is sad, that they don't recognize that the things they hate so much, social welfare, healthcare for all, food stamps, etc., would be things that Jesus would approve of. They support individual responsibility, but don't even see it being played out in the ACA as they weep and whine over the recent ruling. They have an explanation for those things they approve of (massive defense budget, corporate welfare, etc.,) and nothing seems to penetrate their thick sculls that those things while necessary, do not need to be so huge or our main priority.

[The Doctor.]

40. Around 1095 AD.

Really gained momentum around 1480 though.

[totodeinhere]

43. Why just pick on Christians? Many Muslims and Jews are just as bad. It's a thing about all

fundamentalist religions, not just Christianity.

[Thinkingabout]

57. Your statement is in the right direction, Muslim are considered as ultra conserative

and conseratives here are just a step away from the radical Muslim. So goes the introduction of sharia like laws against women being introduced in many states, now tell me the differences.

[NavyDavy]

112. because Christians are always attacking other religions for the things the Christian say are hateful

while doing the exact same or doing worse things.......so if most of them weren't so hypocritical maybe they wouldn't get "picked" on as you put it....... Christians are always playing the victim.

[totodeinhere]

134. I don't think that Christinas have a monoploy on that sort of thing either. n/t

[meow2u3]

157. Christians are supposed to be above using God's name to subjugate others

According to the Catholic catechism, this kind of abuse of God's name amounts to blasphemy, a charge we can use against fundamentalist religion, especially Catholic and other Christian fundamentalism. They'll have to answer to God for this kind of abuse, and they're not going to like where they'll end up at the rate they're going.

I don't know about Jewish, Islamic, and other fundamentalist distortions of religion.

[Zoeisright]

154. Christians are being "picked on" (Waaaahhhhhh!!!!) because

they are the vast majority in this country and are trying to force everyone to live under their interpretation of a fairy tale.

Grow up.

[Marrah_G]

232. I am an equal opportunity hater

I despise all three of the major Abrahamic religions. Not individual people, but the organizations and the beliefs behind them that have killed millions/billions, destroyed entire indigenous cultures in ther quests for gold and power? yeah I hate them. I won't apologize for it.

[mzteris]

44. one word - Fundamentalists.

I think that movement was the tipping point for most.

[Chorophyll]

46. During the Crusades

or earlier? It seems like a long tradition to me.

But historically, American fundies kept out of politics. That changed in the late 70s, when the Republicans realized they could use Roe v. Wade to rope them in. The legacy has not been pretty.

[CleanLucre]

48. rise of Reagonomics, Right Wing and Fundamentalists happened together

[Thinkingabout]

49. The "mean" ones are also seems to be very anti-abortion but against taking care of children

whose parents can not really afford them. They rant against welfare, food stamps and medicare for children. They need to get on the whole wagon, raise money in fund raisers to take care of the needs of children and then tell me they are anti-abortion. It is all a control factor, they vote for any idiot who says they are against abortion and for guns no matter if the person is qualified.

[Iggo]

50. Around the year zero.

[joanbarnes]

51. Well said. Exactly the points I am constantly mulling over.

What kind of 'Christian' despises health care, foodstamps, etc., etc.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

54. Major KnR's

[Gidney N Cloyd]

58. Not sure, but the time I noticed it was in the early 70's. I was a...

church regular, teenager, attending with my parents. I started hearing a lot of hateful racial comments from the other teens and they all dismissed it with the phrase "church is not a museum for saints, it's a hospital for sinners." Then there were bumperstickers like "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven." Seemed like there was just less need to walk the walk.

[Populist_Prole]

142. That's pretty much my experience too

Moving to the bible belt merely solidified my distaste.

Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven Selfish hypocrites really seem to run with that meme these days. I mean, they're so glib about it. It's like carte blanche for them to be completely vile or vicious person, yet still somehow belong to the "good people" club. They say this so glibly and matter of factly without even a hint of irony.

[bigendian]

59. FEAR.

Pure and simple. Funny that they fear men but not God.

[liberal N proud]

62. When they started telling people how they must live

They don't serve as a guide to living like Jesus.

[valerief]

65. This belongs in Religion, not here.

[NightWatcher]

68. This is not a debate about theology

Just a general discussion of what I've perceived lately.

[valerief]

70. It belongs in Religion not here. nt

[NightWatcher]

73. Then click "hide" and feel free to ignore

I see a lively debate here that most people would miss out on because the Religion forum is so lightly traveled.

[marble falls]

196. This belongs in Religion, not here.

[Harmony Blue]

75. Christianity is taught differently in the west

compared to the east.

You are born a sinner in the West, while in the East you are born with the potential to sin. Basically, based on Western Christianity you don't have a choice to avoid sin other than to repent which is why the pessimistic view persists in the West about life in general. In the east the choices you make on a daily basis defines how good of a Christian you (and how much sin you avoid) are. This position is more of a proactive positive outlook on life.

Most of Western Christianity seems rudderless, incoherent and lacking direction, because they have severed the logic and spirituality of the Bible which is full of metaphors, similies and allegories which can applied to our daily lives. This is the biggest problem with Western Fundamental Christianity in that, it removes all critical thinking involved with the Bible.

[valerief]

77. This belongs in Religion not here. nt

[Zorra]

138. But it is primarily a discussion of the religous right, and how the perversion of a

religious doctrine contributed to the formation a distinctive voting bloc of hateful republicans.

Why shouldn't we be able to speculate on what is responsible for the possible motivations of our opposition in GD?

From the OP:

"People who used to be nice have been warped and manipulated in their blind faith to become the foot soldiers of rich, evil bloated white guys who hate, spend their money, and preach weekly from mega pulpits against everything that their Jesus actually did (once again assuming you believe their book)."

[RKP5637]

135. You touched on what I've thought for some time now, the desire by some christians

to be punished, because they are by default sinners. Hence, they vote for punishment, they need politicians that will punish them because they feel they are sinners by default in need of punishment.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

265. If they had inner strength, they would get up and walk out.

And refuse to believe the hateful bullshit that they are sinful just because they are breathing.

Original sin demolishes little children and grown people as well, shrinks them down for NO REASON.

Original sin is a lie, it's a fairy tale. Substitutionary atonement is a false solution to a made up problem.

If they don't walk out they will be forever depressed from some asshole preacher bellowing at them who does not even know them, about how sinful they are.

[NavyDavy]

116. no its in the right place.....its not about theology its a discussion about behavior of a certain

block of Americans....

[I Love a Mystery]

185. "No posts about...religion"

I guess I wasted a lot of time reading the rules here.

[Skittles]

170. I disagree

I am Agnostic and this is a General Discussion item

[Occulus]

205. Amazing how DU's 'christians' don't want this openly discussed, isn't it?

Those poor, poor christians. They're soooo put upon!



Valerie and the rest: GD is the adult's table. Were discussing how your fairy tales affect the rest of us who don't believe in your sky daddy. The religion forum is for your fairy tales themselves, and is a place some of us won't even click on.

If you don't want people discussing how your false god and the rules you made for him (a literally true statement) affect us, go into your closet and pray to your invisible sky daddy who is in secret.

We. Won't. Stop. You.

Unlike your own false religion, which will try to stop us from doing any number of things, whether we leave you alone or not.

[I Love a Mystery]

215. Well, now I know where YouTube posters hang out when they're not there.

[Occulus]

237. If your religion had not

denied me full and equal status under the law, called HIV "God's disease", made me afraid even to hold my lover's (NOT husband's, because of your religion) hand in public no matter where we might be at the time, forced me to live a lie for the first 19 years of my life, and forced me into "passing" for straight out of sheer self-preservation,

[font size="3"]If your religion had not, in a word, treated me like dead dogshit all my life,[/font]

I would never, ever have had cause to write any of what I have on this thread.

Note that I am NOT an atheist. I am an agnostic antichristian. Because of how your religion has treated me.

The only difference between then and now ("then" being when I very foolishly tolerated christianity) is that I'm just accepted enough in society now that I'm not afraid of being beaten or even killed, by christians and christians specifically and only, for speaking out. Your religion did not give me that- I and people like me took that acceptance, took our basic human dignity, in spite of your religion.

Please note that I have not ever been in fear of the same treatment christianity dishes out to me and those like me from Jews, Muslims, Bhuddists, Wiccans, or in fact any other religion practiced in the US. It is christianity and christians, and only christianity and christians, that have had the unmitigated gall, the lack of basic human decency, the lack of any semblance of morality, to commit this assault, to write that law, to condemn those HIV patients.

There is no reason, none at all, for me to continue pretending your religion is not a mortal enemy to me in every sense of the word. I have every reason to oppose your religion and all of its works, and I'm not going to be silent about it ever again.

[Skittles]

254. I hear you, Occulus

yes INDEED

[Bluerthanblue]

66. wow-

this is sadly very well said and thought out.

thank you

[rocktivity]

67. The problem with religious fantatacism isn't the religion. It's the fanatacism.

As you say, not all Christians. Also, not all Muslims, not all Jews, not all Satanists, not all atheists.


rocktivity

[JHB]

71. That sort has always been there. The current crop...

...came out of hiding in the 70s, as useful idiots for the Movement Conservatives to take power.

[bupkus]

72. Because the GOP decided to use religion as a wedge issue. nt

[Jessy169]

78. But when were Christians ever truly "Christians"

Looking back through the 2100 years of Christianity, we have plenty of good reasons to ask that question. Most of Christian history is synonomous with the history of the Catholic Church, and we know how un-Christian, in fact how heinous that history is. The Crusades, where innocents were slaughtered including men, women and children. The Inquisition. The witch hunts. Centuries and centuries of pedophile priests. Then begins the Protestant era and the import of Christianity to America, where we get the Salem Witch trial, the slaughter of indians justified by "the fact" that they are all non-Christian heathens. Those are just the highlights, with plenty of wholesale cruelty, slaughter, deception and inhumanity to fill in the blank spots. It is not difficult to understand why so many (not all) "christians" became hateful psychopaths? Truth is, they've always been that way, or rather they have always been primed and ready to become that way when "activated". Today's lot of right-wing Christians are no different. Historically, and fundamentally, they are a vile, angry, vicious lot of blood thirsty assholes just waiting for a "cause" to unleash their pent-up hatred at. The Republican Party has harnessed the energy of one of the most destructive forces in written history, and we better watch out.

[RKP5637]

137. Exceptionally well said IMO!!! n/t

[Loudestlib]

80. They are easily led

I think most of the social justice people have left the churches and the angry and weak took over leadership.

[uppityperson]

113. Good post. The social justice people left and the angry/scared took over the leadership

welcome to DU

[cindyperry2010]

81. i think it is because to

say that another way of thinking doing or believing other than their way is wrong and they cannot or will not accept differences in the world

[RKP5637]

83. Well said. I have absolutely no use for religion anymore. I left years ago. Today to

me religion is a code word for hatred and persecution. Many use religion as a cover for their hatred.

Religion has changed so much. That all said, I know there are good religious people, but I think they are being overrun anymore by the hateful religious people. Religion for many today IMO is a covenant for psychopaths. So sad.

[Egalitarian Thug]

85. About the 4th century. n/t

[Ruby the Liberal]

86. Single Issue voters: Abortion

As long as someone says that they are against abortion (not that they are going to do anything about it, just that they are against it), no matter what else falls out of their mouth (or their votes), it matters not. They are anti-abortion at heart (not that they are going to do anything about it, just that they are against it), so they must be right on 100% of all other issues.

I wish I was making that up.

[jwirr]

87. Four events triggered this: Civil rights, roe vs. wade, Jerry Falwell and Raygun.

[bluestateguy]

90. They pushed out and alienated all the liberal mainline Christians

Such that they either stopped being active in the church or abandoned Christianity all together.

[ladym55]

91. It's been a long-term process

I first noticed it in the 1970s when I left the progressive east coast for a small college in Ohio. I met my first fundies, a Christian college group who knew their bible better than theology faculty (in their own minds, anyway) and pressed all to accept Jesus and take the bible literally. They have spread like a cancer across the country. They take the teachings of the New Testament and gloss over the "socialist parts" and focus on personal redemption, which is a few specific verses they take out of context that justify THEM at the expense of others.

I expect this version of "Christianity" has polluted the South for generations and has spread north.

Fundamentalism in all faiths is a fear response to rapid change. The latter part of the 20th century saw rapid change in American society. People felt threatened and ran to the images sold by the fundies. Their big thing is "traditional family," which is white, blonde, and highly patriarchal. There is a good book by Karen Armstrong, The Battle for God, that looks at the growth of fundamentalism in the three major monotheistic religions.

And if you want to hear about the teachings of Jesus? I highly recommend the comedian John Fugelsang, who knows his bible inside and out and takes on all fundies. And if you want to see a modern-day Christian in action, check out Michael Moore. He took the "do unto others" and "whatever you do for the least of these" to heart. (Those are a few of those troublesome verses fundies tend to ignore.)

[truedelphi]

176. Very relevant and very nice post.

Thanks for the reminder about John Fugelsong as well.

[TxVietVet]

93. k&r

[2pooped2pop]

94. when Bushco started buying their votes, of course

Didn't they start some religious based funding that was suppose to be used to help the peoples in need but in reality was just a payment for the church to get the members to vote as the repubs saw fit?

So they had to start changing the word from the kind and loving words of Jesus to that smiteful Old Testament God who apparently hates everyone and has a psychotic need to be worshiped.

[NavyDavy]

119. yeah the faith-based initiatives

[Manifestor_of_Light]

266. Jesus did a lot of asskicking in the NT.

Lots of hateful stuff allegedly said by Jesus in the NT. Like I come not in peace but with a sword, I come to (destroy families). Cussing out a fig tree not in season.

Condemning people to hell who don't like his preaching. Many more examples than that in the Gospels.

[ellenfl]

95. it started with a few false christians fueling an us-vs-them war 30+ yrs ago.

they called themselves the religious right and the moral majority and they were neither right nor moral. btw, most of the leaders became wealthy in the process. i see unquestioning faith as easily corruptible.

ellen fl

[Tikki]

96. Some people accept their religious lifestyle with grace...others have a problem because...

when they meet someone who they perceive is challenging their belief system it
confuses them and angers them so they lash out to make you go away.
It's kind of how babies act until they, hopefully, mature.
Some churches don't want you to mature...if you did...you may move out of their house.

A few times I have wanted to roll my eyes and make a silly face at what
I've heard religious belief people say out loud and with no context. Most times I think nothing
one way or another.

Tikki

[turtlerescue1]

98. What a great series of posts and perceptions!

As a liberal and progressive Lutheran/Christian, have been concerned with the impacts still raging, but this thread is proof some folks THINK, weigh and care. Thanks DUers!

[hfojvt]

100. when did so many (not all) liberals become judgemental bigots?

See how I said "not all". If you are a non-bigotted liberal, I applaud you for being able to keep your head when others are losing theirs.

First, what is a "hateful psychopath"? Anybody who wants to cut food stamps is hateful and psychotic? Anybody who does not want food stamps to be used to purchase cigarettes, pop, or to take vacations to Vegas is hateful and psychotic? Anybody who does not support free medical care for everybody with no co-pays is hateful and psychotic? Because a church collects money, the people who go there are hateful and psychotic? Blinded by their faith to just say "baaaaah" like a sheep if their pastor says something "hateful" like "God damn America"?

Who is the "most heartless bunch"? How many people are you talking about, besides "so many"? All the Christians who vote Republican? All the people who goto mega churches? All the people who say they believe the Bible is the word of God? No matter how you slice it, you are talking about a whole bunch of people that you do not personally know. People who you see as caricatures and stereotypes so you can broad brush attack them. Only you pulled a few (not all) of the bristles from your broad brush. It's okay now, since you excluded 40 million liberal Christians to broad brush 60 million conservative Christians. Or maybe you only mean to broad brush 55 million of the 60 million conservative Christians. "Many is a word that only leaves me guessing. Guessing about a thing, I really ought to know."

How about if we go in the way-back machine? Remember way back to George W. Bush? Maybe you read about him in a history book? What did he call himself (besides me, which is also a name I call myself, and fah is a long, long way to run)? It started with the word "compassionate". He called himself a compassionate conservative. Of course, that was a con-job. But why did he pull such a con-job? Because he knew it would play well with a lot of voters who are compassionate. We should be trying to win those people to our side, to point out that the Bush tax cuts and the Ryan budget do NOT fit their values.

We should be bringing in those sheaves. Not driving them away by calling them hateful psychopaths.

[NightWatcher]

103. Hey look, A Jets fan. Are you Tim Tebow?

Nice use of several multisyllabic words

Hateful or Psychopathic are words I use to describe a subset of "christians" with whom I'm related who seem to hold positions antithetical to Jesus' positions of helping the poor, feeding the hungry, healing the sick. These that I draw attention to say that people on welfare should be left to starve, those on public healthcare should be left to die. These are the ones I call psychopaths.

[hfojvt]

128. TANJ, Busted

And poster #61 is Aaron Rodgers and poster #58 is Sammy Sosa.

Should we pretend that there are more than 1,000 such people? Who would leave those on welfare to starve and those on public healthcare to die. "So many" How many do you think there are? Further, if I might ask, how much more are you willing to pay in taxes to support welfare and public healthcare? Because I usually get slammed on DU when I suggest that the Bush tax cuts need to be reversed for incomes over $70,000 in order so that we can have more money for things like LIHEAP and Head Start.

But just like not every Jets fan is Tim Tebow, not every conservative Christian supports extreme positions. Also, not everybody with a Jets icon is really a Jets fan http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/122

[tpsbmam]

172. It's not just a "few bad apples" and it's not just 1000 people.....

when you have a Republican Party teaming with the religious right to, among other things, deny women's civil rights in this country. You have a Republican Party that, teaming with the religious right, are trying to shut down Planned Parenthood. Where do you think the Republican war on women is coming from? Here.....just a few of the increasing numbers of ways that the religious right are taking away the rights of women in this country:

The SC Governor vetoed a bill that would have provided OPTIONAL health education & HPV vaccines to 7th grade SC girls. Haley was all for it when she was a state senator, but as Governor, she's lost the nerve to stand up to the religious fanatics.

Nikki Haley, the Governor of South Carolina, vetoed a bill that that would help prevent the spread of the virus that can cause cervical cancer. The South Carolina legislature was unable to overturn her veto.

Because of her veto, South Carolina women will likely die from a preventable death. This in a state that has one of the highest rates of cervical cancer in the country.

<snip>

Republican candidates won’t come out and say it but the Family Research Council has said that the vaccine “could be potentially harmful” to women “because they may see it as a license to engage in premarital sex.”

It turns out that social conservative leaders are more frightening than cancer to Republican politicians.

And this:

The Republicans in Congress have proposed a federal ban on almost all abortions 20 weeks after fertilization, which totally violates the portion of Roe v. Wade that accounts for fetal viability, not to mention the danger to the mother of continuing with the pregnancy.

Seven states have enacted similar measures. In Arizona, Gov. Jan Brewer signed a law that bans most abortions two weeks earlier. Each measure will create real hardships for women who will have to decide whether to terminate a pregnancy before learning of major fetal abnormalities or risks to their own health.

These laws go a cruel step further than the familiar Republican attacks on Roe v. Wade. They omit reasonable exceptions for a woman’s health or cases of rape, incest or grievous fetal impairment. These laws would require a woman seeking an abortion to be near death, a standard that could easily delay medical treatment until it is too late.

All contain intimidating criminal penalties, fines and reporting requirements designed to scare doctors away. Last year, the House passed a measure that would have allowed hospitals receiving federal money to refuse to perform an emergency abortion even when a woman’s life was at stake. The Senate has not taken up that bill, fortunately.

Where the hell do you think all of this is coming from?

I could go on and on but don't have time right now......there are so many ways that the religious right have increasingly been affecting our country and our laws in ways that are increasingly horrific and horrifying!

Just a few or just a few thousand? Bullshit. They may be a minority, but their influence is being widely felt by every single thinking person in this country.

[hfojvt]

192. sorta moving away from food stamps and death

to abortion.

So, you think it is a "right' of women to have HPV vaccine delivered through the school system? To not allow that is somehow "taking away the rights of women". Your article makes it a huge question of life or death, an assertion which seems almost psychotic and also one which is supposed to stir up hatred towards those who would oppose that bill.

And some Christians are hateful and psychotic?

And all the deaths caused by Haley's veto? I don't believe they exist. First of all, about 4,000 women died of cervical cancer last year. About 40,000 die every year from car accidents. 599,000 died of heart disease and 560,000 died from other cancers. So a girl who does not get the vaccine has a much smaller chance of dying of cervical cancer than she does of many other causes.

Second, in order for this veto to cause a significant number of deaths, there must a) be a significant number of people who would get the shot through this program, and b) be a significant number of people who will NOT get this shot if this program does not exist. Haley's veto does not really prevent anybody from getting that shot if they want to get one. The rate of cervical cancer in SC is only 7.6 per 100,000 whereas the DEATH rate from breast cancer is 3 times higher than that. And there were 23 states with a higher rate of cervical cancer than SC unlike what Mr. Buck writes of my home state "This in a state that has one of the highest rates of cervical cancer in the country. "

So to hype this Haley veto as something "increasingly horrific and horrifying" does not look like a rational argument. That rather than hate coming from the religious right, the author there is trying to stir up hatred towards the religious right.

[Shadowflash]

111. I became judgmental when I started getting religious laws forced down my throat.

I became judgmental when I saw them blowing up federal buildings. I became judgmental when I saw them torching abortion clinics. I became judgmental when I saw them murdering doctors. I became judgmental when I saw them picketing someone's funeral just because they did not like the way that person lived. I became judgmental when they started declaring that homosexuals deserved to be killed and atheists deserve worse. I became judgmental when they decided that the country should be run by their beliefs and shouted down anybody who had a different idea. I became judgmental when states put clinics out of business by changing the building codes so they could not hope to comply. I became judgmental when they decided that everybody who wanted an abortion needed a medically unnecessary ultrasound. I became judgmental when they started this presidential campaign on the platform of 'on my first day in office I'm going to take health care away from millions of children and people'.

I believe my judgment is justified and there is no 'dealing' with these people and 'bringing them into the fold'. They are crazy and need to be soundly defeated at the ballot box.

[hfojvt]

118. Well how could I have forgotten

Of course, millions of conservative Christians are blowing up Federal buildings and torching abortion clinics every day. Which religious laws were forced down your throat? You mean "thou shalt not kill"? Or did you have something else in mind?

As to soundly defeating somebody at the ballot box, that generally happens when one side brings a whole lot of people into their fold. A broad brush attack, no matter how pleasing it is to those not in the target group, is probably not the best way to do that.

Now, if you will excuse me, I gotta go be a volunteer fireman. A bunch of Methodists just got out of church, marched six blocks and started an abortion clinic on fire, just like they do every Sunday somewhere in America.

[Shadowflash]

122. Perhaps you missed the part of the OP

that says he's talking about a small minority of religious people. Way to take things out of context.

[hfojvt]

140. "so many" does not sound like a "small minority"

Of course, .01% of 300 million is 30,000. Which, to me, is a lot of people.

But why start a broad brush rant about .01% or 1% or even 3% as if they are "so many"? If there's 97% on the other side, then it is not good to smear the whole (or most of the) group with h-bombs and p-bombs.

[NavyDavy]

124. the oped did not state all Christians, show me some proof that food stamps are being used by most

to do things they were not intended for, yeah there are always a few bad apples.....so stop spouting faux noose crap.....

[hfojvt]

145. so the OP can start a thread about a "few bad apples"

but if I mention a few bad apples (which would be what conservatives are complaining about - the abuses of the program) then I am spouting faux noise crap.

As for "what food stamps are intended for". Two things.

First, we had a huge fight on DU. A poll that split us 50-50. (or maybe more like 10-10-80 with 80% of DUers not taking the poll). The question was "should people be able to buy soda with food stamps". It seemed to me, and I said so at the time, that some people said "no" and others said "yes, and the people who say no are a$$holes".

Point being, there is a debate over "what food stamps are intended for" with some on the left wanting them to be a blank check.

Second, in the same vein, there was this discussion here recently http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=863937

The thing is, there can be disagreements about food stamps without one side needing to call the other side "heartless psychotics".

[JoeyT]

173. Well for religious laws,

how about the anti-gay laws and anti-woman laws, for starters. Even laws that try to prevent gay kids being bullied to suicide are fervently opposed. And the main places that are organizing that opposition are churches.

Be careful climbing down off that cross you've been persecuted up onto. I'd hate you to get a splinter and be double-persecuted.

[hfojvt]

193. I would guess that most anti-gay laws were on the books before I was born

and are not something new that the religious right is shoving down anybody's throat. As for "laws that try to prevent gay kids being bullied to suicide" I would ask an author of such a law why they don't seem to care if straight kids are bullied to suicide. GLBT kids are not the only ones bullied, nor are they the only ones who ever commit suicide.

[Occulus]

208. Your guess is wrong.

Unless you're very young, which would explain a LOT about your posts in general.

[hfojvt]

217. I know you are

but what am I?

see Bowers v. Hardwick 1986

"In this case, the Supreme Court refused to extend the constitutional right of privacy to protect acts of consensual homosexual sodomy performed in the privacy of one's own home."

Justice Byron White wrote for the majority.

"He pointed out that until 1961 all fifty states had outlawed sodomy and that 24 states and DC continued to do so in 1986"

From the Oxford Companion to SCOTUS.

So apparently anti-gay laws were on the books in all 50 states until at least 1961. I was born in 1962.

Now a younger person might see current activites like Prop8 as something new, but what they really are is an attempt to return to the halcyon (as imagined by us old farts) days of the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. Not an attempt to change things, but rather to undo changes that others have made.

[Occulus]

222. "the halcyon (as imagined by us old farts) days of the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s.

Not an attempt to change things, but rather to undo changes that others have made."

the halcyon (as imagined by us old farts) days of the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s.

And not a single note of condemnation on your part.

I am Occulus' complete lack of surprise.

[hfojvt]

251. condemnation or non-condemntation was really not the issue at hand

the question was one of facts. Whether anti-glbt laws were on the books before I was born or not. They were.

So the idea that American society was rolling along as a GLBT paradise and then suddenly the moral majority reared up and started forcing anti-glbt laws down everybody's throats is false.

[I Love a Mystery]

181. Apparently if you say "not ALL" then you can smear 99%

of a group with impunity? I don't know. Is this typical of this board?

[4th law of robotics]

203. If this exact OP had been made but about any other religion

it would have been removed and the poster likely banned.

When did so many (not all) "muslims" become hateful psychopaths? = tombstone.

When did so many (not all) "jews" become hateful psychopaths? = tombstone.

When did so many (not all) "christians" become hateful psychopaths? = brilliant commentary.

[Tigress DEM]

292. True, but IF the conversation can result in more tolerance on both sides, it's worth it.

I think it's like in the 60's when people with good intent (Peace loving hippies) were so upset about what was happening in Vietnam and being done in the name of America that they attacked the soldiers and calling all of them "baby killers" because that war was discovered to be so wrong and so against our national values.

We learned from that and are treating soldiers more honorably as a group even if we still hate war and want to see an end to it.

Today all Christians are getting lambasted for the behavior of some loons out there who are being led around by some very un-Christlike and controlling organizations who are well funded to start this mis-direction so they can keep doing their dirty deeds in secret behind this smoke screen which is causing a lot of collateral damage on the DEM side by getting us to fight among ourselves.

Hopefully, we'll learn enough about tolerating each other here that it will make a difference and get US back on task in taking back our country from those un-Christlike and controlling organizations.

As the OP stated, it isn't all Christians, but some who call themselves Christians are really making it hard for those who are on the path of Peace and Justice to be kind to others with US there who are justifiably angry at the behavior of those who are basically pissing on the memory and deeds of Christ. I'm mad at them too!! But I'm NOT one of them and it would be nice to find a clear way to make that distinction. Hm-mm. I feel a new signature line coming on.....





Tig

[raouldukelives]

104. Sometimes I think a large majority of them don't really believe in it.

I know of course that is being very judgmental but it is just the feeling I get. They don't seem to live by the Beatitudes in daily life. Maybe from when they get up til about noon on Sunday. But really, how many examples of what the NT would consider a "Christian" do we see in daily life? If we did we'd probably think they were homeless or down on their luck. Which of course would be just the opposite.
Speaking of opposites, as you pointed out what passes for Christianity preached and professed by some of the loudest voices seems directly contrary to what the NT actually says. Virtually all of it seems wrapped up in idolatry of the flag, love of money, placing yourself above others, not forgiving your enemies, condoning violence & just pure old timey racism. I've heard it said that the anti-Christ will know scripture backwards and forwards. If someone truly believed, they would have to believe in the forces of evil. If that force was real, how would it manifest itself? How would it best lead as many astray as possible? I could guess at the answer.

[Chisox08]

109. I have a simple explaination for them

They are not Christians. They do everything that Jesus spoke out against, and he would be ashamed to associated with the people who call themselves Christians.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

132. You can do and say anything and be a Christian. The label is meaningless.

Jesus said lots of hateful stuff in the NT.

examples from just one of the gospels, LUKE:

Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 3: 9

John the Baptist says that Christ will burn the damned "with fire unquenchable." 3:17

Jesus says that entire cities will be violently destroyed and the inhabitants "thrust down to hell" for not "receiving" his disciples. 10:10-15

"He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." If you don't like what Pat Robertson says (or any other Christian), then you don't like Jesus, and if you don't like Jesus, you don't like God. 10:16

Jesus says, "He that is not with me is against me." 11:23

Those who "blaspheme against the Holy Ghost" will never be forgiven. 12:10

God is like a slave-owner who beats his slaves "with many stripes." 12:46-47

According to Jesus, only a few will be saved; the vast majority will suffer eternally in hell where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13:23-30

Jesus also believes the story about Noah's flood and Sodom's destruction. He says, "even thus shall it be in the day the son of man is revealed ... Remember Lot's wife." This tells us about Jesus' knowledge of science and history, and his sense of justice. 17:29-32

In the parable of the talents, Jesus says that God takes what is not rightly his, and reaps what he didn't sow. The parable ends with the words: "bring them [those who preferred not to be ruled by him] hither, and slay them before me." 19:22-27
==========
Those people are into the hateful, judgmental Jesus of the New Testament. They ignore this stuff.

[CJCRANE]

158. There is a possibility that all the hell and damnation stuff

is the stick, and the heaven stuff is the carrot, that is there to make you follow all other stuff about helping people, being a good person etc.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

161. Which means atheists are more moral than religious people.

christians do the right thing in fear of punishment and hope of reward.
Atheists do the right thing because it's the right thing to do, with no hope of reward or fear of punishment.

[Shadowflash]

195. +1000

[JNelson6563]

114. From the beginning.

You will know them for their love of one another (and then the scroll is now missing but~~researchers* have reason to believe~~went on to read: and their hatefulness toward everyone else). The missing text survived through oral tradition throughout the ages, some sects disregard, others live it to the inth degree, as it were.

Admit it, it sounds legit.

Julie

* "Researchers" being anyone witnessing many "Christians" in action.

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. Well as a Jew (yup will burn in Hell, so there)

I always like to read this section in Apocalypse about all those false churches... and for those radical RW Christians who start giving me lip about well you know... (For some reason they use the creation of the state of Israel as evidence of the end of days)... that at the end of days we will see the rise of many a false church that will make his word an abomination.

More than a few of these guys, rarely gals, promptly walk away.

Now a more nuanced response... we have a very fast changing world, and people are turning to religion, which has order and can explain the world in simple terms. This is not limited to Christianity, trust me. And I have told a few of my fellow RW jews to pack sand.

[RC]

121. Churches are for worshiping your God

ATMs in the lobby as well as credit card kiosks

These churches are no different. They made no attempt to hide their god in the Sanctuary, they just put them in plain sight in the lobby.

[Zorra]

125. Maybe there is a hell.

Maybe it exists in the confused, loveless, hopeless darkness that fills the minds, hearts, and spirits of those consumed by this hatred that leads them to cause harm to themselves and others, as part of the everyday natural course of their lives, without a thought or care that they are deliberately hurting someone.

That has to really suck.

Think about must be in their heads, 24/7. Isn't that hell?

"The Religious Right (who are neither) are the most heartless bunch you would ever come across.

People who used to be nice have been warped and manipulated in their blind faith to become the foot soldiers of rich, evil bloated white guys who hate, spend their money, and preach weekly from mega pulpits against everything that their Jesus actually did (once again assuming you believe their book)."

"Zombie, zombie, zombie, hey-hey, what's in your head?"

[Kablooie]

126. Christianity has always been used to disguise selfish, hateful attitudes.

It's a useful tool that can be twisted into personal power, gain and hate all the while expressing that you are a loving, caring soul.

That is Christianity's genius and the main reason Christianity has survived all these centuries.

You can be as evil as you want and still wear a Christian halo.

[DevonRex]

131. I sympathize. I never fit in with my family

because they're like that. I was always the one who took what Jesus actually said to heart and they were worried about either the Soviet Union or the Pope being the anti-Christ.

They were fine with there being poor people in the world and rationalized not helping them by saying that good works dont get you to heaven. And I'd say that once you're saved doesn't that mean youve changed and do good things naturally because you're born again and you've become a new person?

Then all hell would break loose and it'd be like they'd turn into Donald Sutherland at the end of that pod people movie, pointing at me like I'm the last human on earth. Or the Commie during the Red Scare.

[think]

133. There are many false teachers just as Jesus warned

If people actually read the Bible, especially the red letter stuff, and actually thought for themselves they would be way better off than to keep listening to the false "profits" that promote their religious agenda rather than LOVE. (IMO)

[fredamae]

136. Because we have two forms of religion-Corporate Religion

and actual, real Chritianity-These are "corp christians" not Christians and were "Psychotic" before they adopted the whole "false christianity" meme, as reality.

[Scootaloo]

143. Because that's what religion does

Think of religion as a sort of browser hijack virus. If it can get into your system, it'll make it much easier for other malicious content to get in there too. If you're weak-minded enough to believe that an invisible sky-monster impregnated a virgin without harming her hymen and the kid that resulted bled water, transmuted water into wine, had replicator technology, and could come back from the dead and fly, then someone telling you that this guy wants gays dead isn't going to have a lot of trouble convincing you of this.

[ErikJ]

148. Maybe they should be called Levicites since they are more interested in old Bible Laws

than what Christ taught. Or Phillistines for all their hypocrisy.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

267. Jesus said a lot of hateful and cruel stuff in The NT.

See my post upthread. I keep repeating myself because people keep saying everything Jesus said in the NT was nice. That is not true.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/inj/nt_list.html

[Flatpicker]

150. In the US

I can't help but think it was around the rise of the MegaChurches and the creation of Republican Jesus.

If not then, you could tie it to the creation of the Southern Baptist ministries.
Or the Civil War and how we never truly patched our differences in the following years.
Maybe we never should have remained 1 country? It's really biting us in the ass nowadays.

[progressivebydesign]

151. My neighbors go to church every sunday to the cool and groovy born again mega church..

.. and the crap that comes out of their mouths on the other six days, completely destroys anything that might be good about their faith. I'm tired of their 'secret muslim' cracks about the President. Tired of their running him down constantly, and speaking ill of gays and of the minorities on our street.

The church they go to is wildly popular in my tony bedroom community. The pastor gives sermons about how sinful it is to be gay, and there was a big controversy about how they treated long time gay members in the church who grew up and out. One particular sermon comes to mind.. the pastor railed against gays, then the next day went on a ski trip and fell. Broke his jaw and it was wired shut for months. Why is it that people like that don't really GET when God actually IS sending them a message?

I have no problem with people who are Christian. I seem to have a problem with people who call themselves "A Christian." There is a big difference in mentality with the branding of being "christian" as opposed to "a christian."

[L0oniX]

156. People of the church were also blind during the days of Jesus on earth...

no surprise that it is the same and yet much worse today.

[DeSwiss]

159. Cafeteria Christians.

Heavy on the greasy ''I Hate You'' meat & gravy, and extremely sparse on the ''Love my Brother As Myself'' salad. Most just spout out shit they've learned since they were kids in Sunday School, along with all the prejudice and hate they were taught along with that as well. Few actually read the book. Fewer still understand what they're reading. Nor the historical context within which it was written.

- If it weren't for religion, there's no way the world could have remained this screwed up for so long without it's help in keeping everyone divided and hating-on everyone else because they belong to the wrong religion.....

''Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all your getting get understanding.''

~ Proverbs - Chapter 4, Verse 7

[bananas]

160. When did so many (not all) "atheists" become hateful psychopaths?

Neocon assholes like Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens who were cheerleaders for torture and Bush's war on terror.

[I Love a Mystery]

184. The invention of the Internet?

That's when I noticed it, lol.

[marble falls]

197. THANK YOU!

[MrTwister]

164. Just about any religion can lead to hate against nonbelievers.

It gives people who want it the feeling of superiority, of making those who don't have the truth (i.e., believe differently than the religious do) stand in their condemnation. It puts them in a position of power, to judge others.

That's why Jesus' most often ignored commandment was "judge not." But the Taliban, and the Baptists, and the Zionists entire raison d'etre is to judge others, and to find them wanting, and to condemn them, and then if the opportunity arises, kill them and take their land and assets.

[aquart]

165. It would have been before the Inquisition.

Before the crispy-crunchy witch burnings.

At least.

[Thor_MN]

169. I would suggest some hateful psychopaths use religion as a front for their hate....

[Douglas Carpenter]

174. when?, sometime between 1977 and 1980 as far as mainstream American Evangelicals are concerned

The earlier enthusiasm of the Jesus movement and the meteoric rise of suburban mega churches began to wane with the realization that Jesus was not coming back - at least anytime soon. Until then most Evangelicals were pretty much apolitical and it would have been considered somewhat unseemly, excessively worldly and unspiritual to be pushing issues or campaigns that would only alienate potential converts who must be won for the Lord in preparation for his second coming. This downturn in spiritual enthusiasm gave an opportunity for demagogues to form a Faustian alliance with political opportunist.

[nonoxy9]

175. This is bullshit moderators! If someone posted this same shit about Muslims or Hindus it would be

Dropped like a hot rock.

[Angry Dragon]

179. ...........

[RitchieRich]

201. of course. THAT would be offensive.

Interesting to see a great chorus preaching intolerance and hate, while defining it as a central tenant of what it is to be a Democrat. Many of us are on the verge of voting third party. Being on DU so far for me has pushed me much further away from the Left.

[Occulus]

211. US Muslims and US Hindus don't persecute others on a national level

the way US christians do.

Sorry, but you christians bought and paid for this OP. If you don't like the chickens coming home to roost, tough. You brought it all on yourselves.

[truedelphi]

177. as far as the "(not all)" part of your OP -

Did you get a look at these photos -

http://www.buzzfeed.com/expresident/pictures-that-will-restore-your-faith-in-humanity

Should be the first photos in this set. Really made me feel good, and to fervently wish that all the other "Religious" groups out there understood Christ's truer meanings, rather than the perverted notion of hating on "gays" and Muslims and anyone else that is different.

And great OP. Thank you for it.

[Angry Dragon]

178. No Fear, I have seen the list and Satan has their names written down

[Proles]

180. I wouldn't worry. Assuming Christianity is true, I think it said somewhere in the Bible

that those who claimed to be Christians without following the words of Christ would be the first cast into Hell!

[PatrynXX]

182. thats why it's called left wing Christian.

one loves to not read the bible but read it. the other doesn't need to read. because they have the right to say what it says and we look it up and it doesn't actually say that. and oi to those Right Wing Christians love their stuff. do'h. can't take it with you..

[HooptieWagon]

183. About 1200 years ago.

Crusades, Inquisition, genocide of native populations, etc. They've had a long time to perfect psychopathic acts.

[Igel]

186. I've never met anyone righteous and self-righteous.

"so I could smile knowing that they would pay for their heinous sins."

Yet I really doubt Jesus got pleasure out of suffering. Even when he was crucificied, he asked that they be forgiven. He wanted not punishment, but repentance.

We all have a way to go. One step is not casting Jesus (or God) in our mold. It's easy enough to do.

Oddly, I was going to argue point by point but I don't think it's worth it. It's their book, not yours, so it would be like arguing about the Qur'aan with a Mormon.

The more important point is that the book that you're talking about has a number of interpretations. Some are more plausible than others; some take quite a bit of contortion to get to. Yours requires a bit of contortion, yet you think it's the one true interpretation. Then, having decided on what others believe because, well, that's the interpretation you'd like them to believe, you condemn them for not abiding by your beliefs about what they believe. Sound silly? Good.

I know people who are dead set against food stamps and Medicare. They despise the ACA. Yet they give upwards of $5k a year to help the poor, plus money to help those in their church or even just known to those in the church that are sick. This is in addition to taxes, in addition to visiting the sick every week, in addition to food drives and clothes drives and book drives. Most of what they do is anonymous--nobody knows who, exactly, provided the 50 lbs of beef or the envelope with $800 in it to cover the rent, but it's local. The helpers know the helped, and vice-versa. It makes for reliance of the poor and sick on their community, not on the ministers or on the government. That's sort of nice. Oh--and the money given directly to the poor and sick? Not tax deductible.

They take salvation to be personal. They will be saved or damned, not all of society. There is no "social salvation".

Not all churches are like this. But if you just dropped by this church you wouldn't see all the charity. You have to get to know the people first, and that requires being open minded. And being willing to sit and eat with those you consider "sinners." Eh, it's a Christian thing.

[Nye Bevan]

187. Fortunately, there are many Christians who are not like that. Barack Obama, Joe Biden, the Clintons,

the Kennedys, Jimmy Carter, and John Kerry, to name a few.

[Alcibiades]

188. As soon as they were strong enough to do so

If Christ were here there is one thing he would not be--a Christian.

[DirkGently]

189. Because they know religion is just culture, babbling to itself?

Very few people, if not indoctrinated at a young age, can hold on to stories written by a bronze-age goat-herding culture, explaining the universe and morality in terms of burning bushes and god-impregnated virgins.

If the political movements calling themselves conservatism or Christian fundamentalism in America today thought for a moment that an omniscient being was watching them and judging them on the basis of the empathy supposedly taught by Jesus, they'd burst into flame out of pure shame. These groups worship a god as stupid as they are, because all the notion of god is to them is an imaginary inflated version of their own deluded egos and self-induced ignorance.

But I don't know that it's ever been any different. Monotheism, and in particular Christianity, despite its morally reasonable sounding roots in the strangely Eastern philosophy of its central figure, has always been first and foremost a power structure. First thing they did was adopt and rename everything anyone had ever liked about a spiritual or mystical view of nature. Then they threw out women, and sex, and replaced them with an image of their ideal leader -- a single male Authority, angry, stupid, and vengeful. And set up a comprehensive system of force to maintain it.

I respect belief and a spiritual approach for those who choose to embrace it. But this cow is not sacred. It was a lie when it was first told, and it's a lie today. I think there's only so far you go with a lie, even with the best intentions.

But I don't think this repellant assault on intelligence, knowledge, equality, and peace, has anything to do with belief. It's a propaganda framework used dishonestly by people who at their core don't believe for a moment in any kind of moral order or a just universe.

By their fruits we shall know them.

[drb]

190. The answer is, in fact, 1964....

...as detailed in Brad Hicks' brilliant four-part essay, "Christians in the Hands of an Angry God."

[SDjack]

283. Agree. LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act in 1964. The southern white churches mostly were

displeased and began a campaign of hate and resistance against non-whites. They spit out their progressive members, who mostly had no where to go. Those churches moved to the hard right, and we all know the results of hatred. They have become mean and vicious.

[Heathen57]

191. Very good questions

but I have yet to hear any explanation from the "Real" Christians.

I have been in conversation with a Christian on another forum where when anyone brings up something the Religious Reich has done, his standard answer is those are not 'real' Christians.

I cornered him about how the Reich IS the face of Christianity, and the 'real' Christians need to confront the crazies.

Of all things, this guy says that one preacher shouldn't criticize another. I've yet to convince him otherwise, and I don't think it can be done. He just thinks all the non-Christians should just know the difference and do their job for them. Yet these are the same ones who will just as often group all Atheists, Muslims, Hindus, and Pagans as unsaved and evil.

Final thing, I would like to copy your post for his enlightenment.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

194. Indeed it does make one wonder doesn't it ?

I thought about that question once. And than I thought- what if those people didn't have their religion- what would they be like .

I think the answer is there.

[RitchieRich]

200. Neat!! Now can I start spewing hatred for Buddhism and Judaism too?

This display of intolerance and hatred would make a fantastic showpiece for Rush. I could see Fox devoting the rest of the election cycle just pointing out how "we" are no better at all. At least they don't pretend.

The more I read on DU.com , the more I feel like its no different than any other right wing hate mongering crap. Perhaps though, the hate on display here has a better grasp of vocabulary.

In reading the original post, there is a clear contrast between what the word is, vs what is practiced by those who are corrupt. Every other post revolves around..."one time, this christian was evil to me..." How would that sound if the word "Christian" were changed out for a random minority, then expanded on to explain how "they" are all the same. Is this what being a Democrat is all about?

Personally, I have no use for physical churches as my faith comes from within. I would go so far as to say that I am turned off by most manifestations of organized religion as seen on TV or at the mall. A church with an ATM is not God, if anything its the exact opposite. Those of us with have faith have no need for it to be approved of, in fact have come to expect persecution. I will not allow my faith to be harmed by this display any more than by those who preach corrupted, false words.

[4th law of robotics]

204. If you wish to be banned

all religions are equal. Some are just more equal than others.

[liberalmuse]

207. Please.

Buddhists never mass murdered people like Christians have done. No group has a perfect history, but I think it's safe to say that the people participating in the Holocaust were largely Christian, and that Hitler was able to carry out his atrocities because of the centuries-old resentments that Christians harbored towards Jews ("They killed our Lord&quot .

I know white male Protestants would love to believe they're being discriminated against, but that is so far from the case it's laughable. In no way, shape or form are Christians persecuted in this country - just the opposite. Try telling people you're an atheist - it would be better if I just told people I ate babies for breakfast or was a Satanist gauging the hateful reactions I get from "Christians".

[RitchieRich]

209. have we been reading from different posts?

I'll try to keep all this hate in mind the next time I go on a killing rampage fueled my my ignorant religious zeal.

The laughable part is that anyone could read this hate speech and see it for anything other than what it is.

[Occulus]

210. I am a victim of christian controls every single day of my life.

The only thing your opinion tells me is that christians can't take .01% of the evil, intolerance, bigotry, hatred, and literal bloodletting they themselves dish out.

As a gay man, I am a literal victim of christianity and of christians every day of my life, every second of every day. Christians and their false and untrue "religion" have made me and those like me less equal under the eyes of the law itself. Yes, I DO hate that religion and all its works. That's what happens when a religion writes laws against those who do not and will not ever subscribe to their little fairy tale.

Even if I stay silent and "tolerate" christians, they will not stay silent and tolerate me and those like me. We tried that for centuries. It hasn't worked. We. Are. Done. Trying.

The "hate" and "intolerance" you claim to be seeing is a just reaction, it is a correct reaction, it is a reasonable reaction, and it is a right reaction. If you don't like that, that's your fault. Not mine. Not the fault of those like me.

This is called payback. This is called reckoning.

This is called justice.

[RitchieRich]

213. This hate you point at me is not my doing

You hate me for having faith, without knowing me. Your hate not is justified. I will swallow all the hate you direct at me, because I believe in a higher power. You should know before you cast judgment on me that I could not possibly care less about the pope or organized religion. My faith, my label of being Christian, revolve around a personal understanding of Jesus, in how he would act and treat others. My prayers are not generic chants but asking to be used as a tool to do good works, giving thanks.

I'll pray for you, for your mistreatment by those who defile the name of God, for your peace.
I will not rejoice in your choice wallow in the misery of hate and loathing, but be pained for your loss, as I see you as a brother and an equal.

[Occulus]

227. Your religion is not you yourself

and it calls for, in writing, my death.

That is all I need to oppose it utterly. If that's "hatred", then yes, by all means, I hate the religion.

I also hate those who would defend something so evil as good and true. The cold kind of hate, the kind that makes me want to do whatever it takes to stop it.

What you and other posters here just are not getting is the fact that, were I to stay silent and "tolerate" your religion, your religion will not do the same in return. It hasn't ever, and currently opposes even the fact I exist at all.

Why should I "tolerate" that? Give me one reason.

[RitchieRich]

241. I do not preach hate

"Jesus was a liberal Jew" ...
one of my favorite t-shirts / bumper stickers of all time. Classic, because it is literally true, and infuriating to those who go in the opposite direction from him.

I would never preach hate against you or any social group.
Someone who would has missed the point entirely. I am not your enemy, no matter how much you hate me. I wont attribute your actions / words to any whole group. I doubt very much that anyone who has faith and is on DU would buy into that mindset. Liberal Christians are your friend. I am sorry that people have caused you to feel this way. Truly.

I slowly and thoughtfully came to embrace my faith based on years of observation, events, people who touched me. My faith is based on a truth in my heart, not on ancient deeds or words. I don't care what the Republican or the pope think, their effect on me is limited to the backlash of hate I am greeted with. I do not handle snakes, other people don't feed me my beliefs, I have never acted against you and neither has anyone I would call a friend.

[turtlerescue1]

247. We ALL tend to lump everyone together.

But Occulus please look up the ELCA and their recent decision.

Each of us is an individual: mind, soul, body. Some religions believe there was an angel named Moroni; some believe that the communion sacrament is only for church elders; some pray to statues; some can't get past the laws into the "spiritually linguistics"; some cannot have faith in what is unseen, and some believe we were given a Life whose teachings collided with the Temple elites.

This time I have to respond to your post.

Judge not, unless you wish to be judged also. Care even for the least among us. If you are perfect, then go ahead and throw the first stone at someone who is not. Love your enemies, anyone can love their friends. Do unto others as you wish them to do unto you.

Its a long list, but the one that always stops me in my tracks is: Don't worry about the splinter in someone else's eye, until I have taken the board out of my own.

Being open-minded always feels like being gullible and naive, oddly enough have found that less than half the time do I end up feeling used or foolish for the efforts. Not the odds I felt so sure exists.

[Marrah_G]

229. There is nothing more annoying then having someone say "I'll pray for you"

during a debate over any issue. You don't mean it, stop saying it, it's so transparent.

[RitchieRich]

238. I'm sorry if I've offended you

but you have no way of knowing what is in my heart. The pain I feel upon being attacked so viciously is as genuine as my desire- not to convert, but to help.
I hope I did not come across incorrectly.

[Occulus]

239. The "pain" you feel over being "attacked" (which you yourself are not) is as nothing compared to

the pain, death, and general misery inflicted upon some of us by your religion.

YOU are not being attacked. Your religion is, and very rightly so.

If you cannot separate the two, that is your failing. Not ours.

[RitchieRich]

243. I am a member of my social group

I am a Christian.

[Marrah_G]

246. Good for you.

You should be aware that even though in your everyday life you probably rarely run into someone who will say they don't like your religion, there are people out there who don't.

I love my parents very much. They are Catholics. I would like to see the catholic Vatican and dioceses all disappear tomorrow, never to be seen again. My parents know I love them. They know that I hate their church, they know why I hate their church. They can separate themselves from their religion.

[Marrah_G]

244. you are not a victim

No one has come into your house and questioned your parenting due to the fact that you are christian. You don't have to worry about losing your job, not getting and apartment, ect if you reveal your religion.

You could even run for higher office.

Seriously. I get that you don't like someone not liking your religion, but you are not a victim. No one has attacked you.

[Nye Bevan]

220. Would you be happy if Obama, Biden, the Kennedys, and Jimmy Carter renounced their Christianity? nt

[Occulus]

223. Yes.

[Marrah_G]

236. Yes, I would be.

[Nye Bevan]

212. Yep. If you start a "why do so many Muslims believe that they will be rewarded with 72 virgins

for attacking the Great Satan" thread, I doubt that so many DUers would be as warmly receptive.

[Occulus]

214. That is because US Muslims do not persecute people

the way christians in the US do.

Come to think of it, neither does any other religion in the US. Only christians.

So give it a rest, Nye. The pushback you're seeing is totally justified.

[Nye Bevan]

219. Funny, I've never felt "persecuted" by Christians such as Obama, Biden, the Kennedys, the Clintons,

and Jimmy Carter.

Oh I get it, you're talking about a tiny minority of Christians, just like it's a tiny minority of Muslims who engage in terrorism.

[Occulus]

224. Clinton signed DOMA into law.

How can you use him as an example!??!

[Nye Bevan]

225. OK, that was a disgrace. I will certainly concede that (nt)

[zinnisking]

216. That's what they're taught.

I thought of myself as a conservative Christian until 12 years ago when I worked with a Republican/christian* who was always always angry and hateful. Heh, and of course the guy is a Pat Roberson fan.

When I was a child, I always thought Christians were cloth wearing, kind, gentle people, who never so much as swore and certainly never said anything hurtful. Isn't that nice? Well, I never heard the word "fag" used by an adult until I met a "Saved Christian". I became a full blown atheist during the Cheney/bush days when Republican/christians were jubilant their country was going to war again and again. Pro-war, pro-death penalty, "fag" hating Christians? That is when I grew up and looked at things objectively.

Republican/christians were taught to be immature assholes by their parents, Pat Robertson, local churches. They simply haven't grown up.

*Republican/christian is a brand. Yes, Mr. hfojvt, in my experience, Republican deists are more immature and hateful than progressive deists.

[Initech]

218. Really - 200+ posts and not a single mention of Joseph McCarthy?

McCarthy's whole insane "you're with us or against us" attitude is really what started the massive divide between conservatives and liberals in the first place. It's why we have "in god we trust" printed on our money and why we say "one nation under god" in our pledge of allegiance. He ignited fundamentalist Christians and started getting them elected to government offices and then painted his enemies as communists and terrorists. Really he was the worst and no challenges to this day of his insane policies.

[blueamy66]

228. as we were sitting, waiting for a bed at rehab....

my BF said "this is where Jesus would be"....no shit.....compassion and warmth...with the most troubled....

[YoungDemCA]

240. There have ALWAYS been strong currents of right-wing Christianity in the United States....

...but they have gotten more politically active since, roughly, the end of WWII, when America stood unchallenged in terms of economic prosperity and military strength-with the exception of the Soviet Union.

I don't think a lot of people give enough "credit" to the Cold War for its stoking of the fears of many American Christians. After all, the Commies, with their hard-line atheistic stance, posed a direct threat to the authority of religious leaders worldwide. And in America, that threat was amplified by Marxism's ideological and political threat to the capitalist system.

While many American Christians at the time were "Cold War liberals" (and some were further left than that, even), there was a significant segment that had a much more right-wing political orientation. This was especially true of many of the evangelical, fundamentalist, and Pentecostal churches that grew in number during this time period. Anti-Communism, furthermore, was tied in the minds of members of these churches with a highly rigid, absolutist view of morality and a zealous belief in right-wing economic individualism. The emphasis of such churches on personal salvation and their view of collective solutions to social problems as sacrilege gelled well with many middle-class members of the prosperous post-war American economy, particularly as it suited their own lives and circumstances well on an individual level.

Since the economic and cultural upheavals of the 1960s and 1970s, the Religious Right has become more and more active in right-wing politics, particularly as a large segment of the Republican Party. With the decline of more moderate churches (especially much of the 'mainline" Protestant community) and the growth of right-wing conservative churches, the Christian population has become more divided between very nominal (or entirely secular) Christians, and the right-wingers who are very organized politically.

[bobthedrummer]

242. imho, you are referencing the pagan/neopagan demonic crew that has been with US ever since Creation.

Some of them go to churches/synagogues that are "led" by severe doctrinaires into the dark side just like the inner Nazi Party leaders were-otoh, there are militant atheists that don't give a damn about anything.

Interesting, indeed, that both the Old and New Testaments spoke/warned Believers openly about the same religious hypocritical corruption and evil that you mentioned-consider that Jesus Christ was persecuted by the Pharisees who manipulated Rome to follow through with their murderous persecution.

For the record, consider that Judas Iscariot was the Treasurer of the original 12 Apostles...

Finally, there certainly is a spiritual dimension to the Universe that is reflected in the natural sciences-which are now unstable.

[2ndAmForComputers]

257. Please elaborate on this "unstability" in the natural sciences. I'm curious.

[bobthedrummer]

268. Climate change, for one...n/t

[Manifestor_of_Light]

294. Unstable? The scientists agree on climate change.

Rick Perry thinks they are being bribed. He does not understand that scientists cannot be bribed to change their opinions with money.

Because he is bought and paid for.

[LanternWaste]

245. About the same time that many humans (not all) became hateful psychopaths.

About the same time that many humans (not all) became hateful psychopaths.

[bemildred]

248. +1. nt

[2ndAmForComputers]

256. Kick because the right people don't like this OP.

And when I say "right," I say it in more than one sense.

[kctim]

269. You do understand

that their argument is that HE did all those things himself, he didn't petition government to "force" others to do it for him because HE thought it was a good idea?

[Taverner]

276. Because they are reading the Bible

The Bible is not a book about love and peace, egalitarianism and utopia. It is part nationalistic cult, and part mishmash of then contemporary religions compiled by a statist regime (Rome.)

The reason there are good Christians has nothing to do with the Bible, but more to do with empathetic theologians like Paul Tillich and leaders like Dr. King.

[spin]

307. It could also be because they haven't read the Bible ...

Most Christians that I know have never read the Bible although most have a version in their home. Their familiarity with the book is caused from attending sermons in church, Sunday School lessons at a church or from watching religious programs on TV.

The Bible is a challenging book to read and it is wise to read other books to help a reader to understand the context of the Bible and the times when it was written. In choosing such aids to reading the Bible it is wise to pick books which present the Bible as fact as well as those who question the stories or historical accuracy.

The Bible itself suggests this:

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)

[arcane1]

278. When the KKK stopped being a powerful force in our culture, they went Religious Right n/t

[RainDog]

317. Fundies aligned with the KKK

posted earlier on this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002185204

In 1925, the Klan became the first national organization to urge that creationism and evolution be given equal time in public schools (see Wade 1987). In the same year, Bryan's participation in the Scopes trial turned it into a major event of international interest. When Bryan died five days after the Scopes trial, the Klan burned crosses in Bryan's memory, eulogizing him as "the greatest Klansman of our time" (Werner 1929). The Klan vowed to take up Bryan's anti-evolution cause, and a defrocked Klan official formed a short-lived rival group called the Supreme Kingdom, "whose primary purpose was carrying on Bryan's crusade against teaching evolution" (Larson 1997).

Although there was no formal connection between fundamentalism and the Klan, both movements appealed to similar people. According to McIver (1994), perhaps as many as 40,000 fundamentalist preachers joined and were active in the Klan. As Mecklin observed, "a fundamentalist would have found himself thoroughly at home in the atmosphere of Klan ceremonies" (1924: 100). Moreover, many of the leading evangelists of the early 20th century were fervent creationists who supported, and were supported by, the Klan (Moore 2001; Wade 1987). William Bell Riley - who founded the World Christian Fundamentals Association and sent Bryan to Dayton to prosecute Scopes - advocated white supremacy as well as a ban on the teaching of evolution. Similarly, evangelist Billy Sunday endorsed the Klan Kreed of white supremacy and bitterly attacked evolution. Bob Jones Sr's revivals were supported financially by the Klan (de Camp 1968). And J Frank Norris linked his attacks on evolution with assertions of the importance of white supremacy, warning his followers that white children would have to attend schools with and be taught by blacks.

Later in the 20th century, as most religious denominations in the US denounced the Klan, Southern Baptists - whose denomination was organized in 1845 as a haven for pro-slavery Baptists - were "unanimously silent on the question of the Klan" (Moore 2002a; Rosenberg 1989). " silent but powerful accessory to the segregation pattern in the South" ( 1958: 1128; see also Rosenberg 1989), the Southern Baptists opposed not only integration and other antiracist efforts, but also the teaching of evolution (Ammerman 1990), denouncing Darwinism as "a soul-destroying, Bible-destroying, and God-dishonoring theory".

A favorite strategy of creationists has been to vilify evolution. At the Scopes trial, prosecutor William Jennings Bryan warned that "All the ills from which America suffers can be traced back to the teaching of evolution." More recently, Judge Braswell Dean of the Georgia State Court of Appeals stated in 1981 that "This monkey mythology of Darwin is the cause of permissiveness, promiscuity, pills, prophylactics, perversions, pregnancies, abortions, pornotherapy, pollution, poisoning, and the proliferation of crimes of all types" (quoted in Toumey 1994: 94) and in 1999, US House of Representatives Republican Whip Tom DeLay claimed that the teaching of evolution is linked to school violence, birth control, and abortion (Anonymous 1999). As part of this vilification, many creationists blame evolution for racism. For example, Henry Morris - the most influential creationist of the late 20th century - claims that "evolutionism" is satanic and responsible for racism, abortion, and a decline in morality (Morris 1989). Today, creationist organizations such as the Creation Research Science Education Foundation sell posters claiming that evolution leads to racism, Nazism, adultery, infanticide, stealing, murder, drunkenness, and homosexuality.

Despite this late-20th-century spin associating evolution to racism, the links between creationism and racism have often been explicit in the fight to integrate public schools. Not all anti-evolutionists in the South opposed integration, but many did; for these people, banning the teaching of evolution was part of a heroic campaign to save "The Southern Way of Life" from race-mixers and atheists, who were equally evil in Dixie demonology (Irons 1988). These links were obvious when Susan Epperson challenged the Arkansas anti-evolution statute in the 1960s (Epperson v Arkansas; see Moore 2002a).

http://ncse.com/rncse/22/3/racism-publics-perception-evolution

[enki23]

279. The instant they acquired any political power.

.

[HockeyMom]

282. When they all stopped being Methodists, Catholics,

Baptists, etc., and all became just Christians. Sheep. Them against everybody else. Safety in numbers so to speak?

I am old enough to remember when people didn't like talking about their religion, AT ALL, and if they did, they specifically identified with a particular sect of Christianity, not some one size fits all brand of it.

[lemurian sistah]

284. Look at the vast majority of posts on DU

and tell me they are not hateful.

[patrice]

286. Agree. I'd bet there is a high probability that the dominant trait(s) are negative. nt

[Zoeisright]

299. I knew they were hateful psychopaths back in the 1960s.

When I went from a public school to a parochial school. That was filled with hateful little bastards who thought they were pious because they sat in church on Sunday. Turned me off Christians for good.

And the thing is, the older I get, the more hate I see from so-called "Christians".

[liberalmuse]

301. When did they not?

The crusades. The Inquisition. The Salem witch trials. I missed a ton in-between, before and after, but you get my drift.

[Justpat]

303. When they started to get a sense of political power.

When the right wing began courting their vote in order to gain greater traction for themselves
in office, the so called christians became unglued.

[YoungDemCA]

320. The ironic thing is, the Christian Right has lost a lot of power in society at large....

But that makes them only more angry, hateful, and fearful.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

322. What I frequently fail to understand

is how fundies keep focusing on the OLD Testament, which covers most of things they preach about in regards to sin (i.e. homosexuality) when the Bible has a NEW Testament that, at least according to what I remember from my protestant upbringing, is supposed to represent God's new "compact" with mankind vis-a-vis the birth, death, resurrection, and ascension of his "son", Jesus Christ of Nazareth. While the Old Testament is relevant insofar as knowing "what came before", shouldn't what's in the New Testament (or what's not) simply override it?

[Beacool]

323. I see hate on both sides of the political spectrum.

How many Democrats hate any Republican, how many Republicans hate any Democrat?

What happened to respectful disagreement of others' views? Look at Congress, after the debacle of 2010, most of the Democrats who lost seats were moderates. Most of the Republicans newly elected were Tea Partiers. Does anyone really expect either of these people to accomplish anything????

Long gone are the days where both groups battled each other on the House or Senate floors, but socialized off duty. When people get to know others, they tend to be more agreeable to working together on finding mutual solutions. Congress has become too polarized.

[840high]

326. ...

[Beacool]

327. I forgot I wrote that.