Nothing good comes to Democrats from divisiveness

[Cary]

Vote Democratic. Do not sow discord and discontent.

[Cha]

1. Mahalo Cary!

[betsuni]

2. K&R

[randome]

3. Agree. Constructive criticism does not mean calling us "feeble" or "no better than the GOP".

There are ways to get one's points across without resorting to insults.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[Cary]

4. I'm done with it

I will not tolerate it any more.

Vote Democratic!

[randome]

5. As pointed out on another thread, Schumer appointed Sanders in charge of Dem outreach.

Maybe with a specific direction to follow, he won't be tossing insults at us as he goes.

This might be a good way to channel his positives.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[Cary]

6. I guess that depends on Sanders

We will never know his intent.

I suspect he is not as radical as his most strident followers.

[oberliner]

7. He was booed lustily by his strident followers

When he encouraged them to vote for HRC in the general.

[Cary]

8. Surprise surprise!

Radicals. <spits>

[R B Garr]

13. +1, I took it that way, too. Tom can help control

the gratuitous smears against Democrats. In the name of unity and all that...

[sheshe2]

9. +1000

Exactly Cary, thank you.

[zipplewrath]

10. So we shouldn't have desegrated the party in the '60s

It was very divisive in the early '60s when we forced the southern state party organizations to desegregate. Heck, whole delegations marched out during the national convention. Kennedy had to run against a 3rd party candidate. I guess nothing good came out of any of that.

[Cary]

12. Vote Democratic

Do not sow discord and discontent.

[Hekate]

18. So we should recognize this is 2017 and our clear and present danger comes from other sources....

...than in the 1960s.

I was alive and sentient at the time, zip. I'm sure you were too. 1968 was my first presidential campaign and I worked my heart out for the first anti-war candidate to step up. Then our honorable opponent was brutally assassinated. Then Hubert Humphrey's character was assassinated -- by "our" side. It was not until after he died that I found out what a sterling Democrat and populist he was, and it kind of broke my heart that I had been so young and naive.

Howdy, President Tricky Dick.

There were a crapload of other things leading to Nixon's election, to be sure. But of the many many lessons to be learned from that time, one of them is: Democrats should keep their eyes on the prize. Democrats should definitely argue things out. But when the primaries are over, Democrats who don't have each other's backs are fools and dupes.

[Cary]

26. Vote Democratic Hakate!

[synergie]

23. So it seems that some enjoy discord and divisiveness because they can't figure out

that the toxic nonsense that is going on here seems to be the literal opposite of the 60's.


This stuff is coming from outside forces, remember that, and acknowledge what they;re actually doing and why.

[zipplewrath]

27. Don't make other people's argument for them

I'm sure the proponents don't think their positions are coming from the "outside". Quite the opposite, their impression is that changes they have seen coming to the democratic party are from "interlopers" such as the DLC.

And the segregationists claimed that it was "outside agitators" that were coming into THEIR state and forcing this upon them too.

Politics is pretty much about conflict. Even within a party, as can be seen right now in the GOP as well.

[synergie]

28. Calling out the obvious and blatant BS isn't making an argument for anyone.

I don't really care what the people blindly parroting the nonsense they're fed think, or what their delicate impressions are. The evidence of where these talking points are coming from is overwhelming and undeniable.

This analogy you've decided to focus on doesn't work. We literally know who is behind this, and how they're doing it. They're also doing it to undo what was done in the 60's.

What's going with the Dems is that agitators like the Tea Party, that seeks to destroy the party itself and its basic ideals have been caught doing their damage, and they're being defended by people who seem upset that the Dems that fought for desegregation, for women's rights etc. did their job.

They seek to undo that, this the discord, the divisiveness and the damage that people "think" is so wonderful. It's not.

Those sowing the discord are on the side of those segregationists of yore, who were upset that they party was not going to be only about White Men and their opinions, voices and needs. Nothing good comes out of dragging us back to that point, nor by silencing the voices that make up the Democratic party because a small, vocal and vicious minority, who make it clear they are not a part of it, demand to be appeased.

[Cary]

30. You're trying to complicate things

Do you want to win? Or do you want evil to win?

That is your choice. That is your only choice.

Vote Democratic.

[Gothmog]

11. Agreed

We need to work together.

[R B Garr]

14. Absolutely! The GOP seems to understand that staying

in power is the only way to ensure their work endures. First things first.

It's a two party system. That's reality. So get elected. First things first.

[Cary]

16. True

No one is going to whine their way to change.

[NastyRiffraff]

15. Thanks Cary

2018 is coming fast, and Vote Democratic is the most important thing we can do. Everyone be prepared to GOTV!

[Demsrule86]

17. Agree ...we need to stick together. K&R

[Cary]

20. All decisions in life boil down to yes or no, if you think about it.

More complex decisions are just a bunch of yeses and noes linked together, if you think about it. Life is rather binary that way, like a computer.

So one either votes for a Democrat, or one votes for evil. A non-vote is a vote for evil.

Vote Democratic.

[Cary]

22. "Stick together"

Yes.

It's not difficult. Simply find the common ground, which is basically everything of substance, and work to make that happen. Where we differ is in process and I don't give a rat's butt about process as long as it gets us to substance.

I have enough experience with the radical left to make the argument that they don't want to stick together. If I am correct, that's a problem and not something we can change so easily. My suggestion is to keep it simple, keep it direct, and do not let them divert us or lessen our resolve.

Vote Democratic. You want to talk to me about voting Democratic? Great. Let's talk.

I will no longer go down any rabbit holes. No more. Vote Democratic. Just do it.

[Justice]

25. Agree. So well said.

[Demsrule86]

29. Yep...someone likened it to herding cats.

[Cary]

31. A lot of people aren't going to like this analogy for reasons of their own

In some ways I don't like it either.

I have an Israeli friend. I don't know if you've ever known any Israelis but let's just say they're some of the nicest people I've ever met, unless you get them pissed off at you. It comes, I think, from being called frequently to bomb shelters.

Anyway I asked this friend about his perspective on the Arab-Israeli conflict and he told me that it's like meeting a bully on the schoolyard who wants to take your ball. You tell the bully no. If the bully gets aggressive you get aggressive back. You say no. You stand your ground. No. No apologies. No concessions. You just say no, because otherwise you are enabling the bully.

This is how we must treat the radical left because they are radicals. No. You can't badmouth our party. Vote Democratic. No, I am not going to listen to you smear our candidates, or call me names. No. You have two choices: good or evil. Vote Democratic. Vote Democratic. No. No. Vote Democratic.

I'm sick and tired of the nonsense and the bullying. No, I'm not a "third way" whatever or a "neoliberal." No, I'm not a "corporatist." I'm a Democrat. I'm for Medicare for all. I'm against tax cuts for billionaires. I'm pro-choice. I despise the radical right because they're evil and they're morons. I'm a Democrat. Vote Democratic. Do it. Vote Democratic.

[Demsrule86]

32. You are right...

I want everything that those who consider themselves super leftists want...I just don't think we can do it without winning elections.

[Cary]

34. Of course

[Demsrule86]

72. hahah...

[brer cat]

36. +1

How anyone can look at trump and his maladministration and then bash Democrats is beyond me. And it is just as simple as you state.

[brush]

54. Now you're talking. You are my kind of Democrat.

No more of this trashing the party, calling us corporatists, then voting for Stein or not voting and helping to usher in trump.

[Cary]

56. Keep it simple, right?

And be positive.

No muddling up the waters. We have been too tolerant. Let's be done with the gloomy Gus types.

[Hekate]

19. KnR

[mcar]

21. Thank you Cary

There is no reason for any liberal, progressive or centrist to vote anything but Democratic.

[Justice]

24. Agree + 1 million.

[BannonsLiver]

33. It REALLY IS that simple, folks

Time to close the book on the 2016 primary.

[we can do it]

35. Yes. Thank you.

[aikoaiko]

37. Sure don't sow discord or discontent, but it is ok to voice it when it exists.

Don't you think?

[Cary]

39. Vote Democratic!

[aikoaiko]

41. Yes, and talk about the good things and problems with the Democratic party, too.

See how that works.

[Cary]

42. I see how sowing discord and discontent doesn't work

Unless you want Democrats to lose.

[aikoaiko]

46. I see how not acknowledging discord and discontent doesn't work for Democrats

YMMV

[Demsrule86]

48. I completely disagree with you.

[aikoaiko]

49. Fair enough. We don't have to agree and we can both post our thoughts.

[Cary]

53. It's not too much to ask people with shared goals to be positive

Sorry, I reject your canard. If you aren't working in a positive way to enact our agenda then you are against us.

[aikoaiko]

81. It's not too much to ask, but its too much to expect acquiescence.

If you want to know why people aren't voting or supporting Democrats (enough or at all) then you need to let them speak and be heard.

[Cary]

82. You don't get it

My message isn't for you anyway.

[aikoaiko]

84. Who is your message for?

[Cary]

86. What do you think?

[aikoaiko]

108. I really don't know. I thought it was for DU members.

Some of us agree. Some of us disagree. We discuss. That's how it works here.

[Cary]

109. Oh?

I think you can do better than that. Try putting yourself in the place of someone who wants Democrats to win over Republicans.

[Demsrule86]

87. Some here expect perfection before they will vote Democratic...

We need to worry about those who care enough to vote Democratic no matter what. They are the ones that will take us to victory...so many sites anyone can go on and trash the party ...but they are just furious they can't do it here. I can't understand why they don't get that this only helps Trump and the Republicans.

[Cary]

94. Where is our energy best invested?

When everyone in the world sees beauty,
Then ugly exists.
When everyone sees good,
Then bad exists.

Therefore:
What is and what is not create each other.
Difficult and easy complement each other.
Tall and short shape each other.
High and low rest on each other.
Voice and tone blend with each other.
First and last follow each other.

So, the sage acts by doing nothing,
Teaches without speaking,
Attends all things without making claim on them,
Works for them without making them dependent,
Demands no honor for his deed.
Because he demands no honor,
He will never be dishonored.

~ Tao te Ching

[Demsrule86]

71. We sure can...cheers!

[Cary]

52. Just because you can doesn't mean you should

You have every right to sow discord and discontent but nothing you say will convince me that you're not cutting off your nose to spite your face. Please note that I give you the benefit of the doubt, assuming that you don't just want to cut off your nose for no reason at all.

[brush]

57. You straighten all that out during the primaries. Whoever wins you get behind...

You don't drag out and delay in supporting the winner thereby weakening him/her.

We dislike the repugs but once they have a candidate they all fall in behind that candidate and it obviously works for them as they now control all branches of government while we're still fighting the primary and many continue to trash the party and even leave the party.

It's obvious that's not how to win.

[Demsrule86]

89. 1000+ Primaries are to air out divisions...

And then you vote for the DEMOCRAT ALWAYS...NO EXCEPTIONS.

[Demsrule86]

44. I would think one would want to talk about how bad the Republicans are in order

to win elections...and talking about 'problems' with the Democratic party discourages voters from voting Democratic. And perhaps what you consider 'problems' another Democrat might not...we are a big tent party and one should accept that there will always be different opinions.

[aikoaiko]

45. I wouldn't think that. There are a lot of folks who lean Democratic when they vote, but...

...they don't want to identify as a Democrat for a reason.

Seeing and hearing Democrats and allies criticize the party will help them have faith that the party can improve.

There are plenty of cheerleaders for the party who will never utter a critical word publicly. I'm glad for the few voices who are letting potential voters know that not all of us are blind to weak spots.

[Demsrule86]

47. I believe criticism of the party...and everyone has a different idea...

discourages voters and leads to Democratic losses...I will never forget 2010 when Pres. Obama was viciously attacked and what happened...we lost the house. In 16, the Democratic Party was criticized relentlessly and we lost... I am not willing to criticize my party in order to attract some who may or may not vote for us. I will do what I can to make the party work for everyone but at the end of the day. You are either a Democrat or you are not. And I see no reason to change the party to accommodate folks who will not become Democrats. Change happens bottom up...the trouble with the latest folks who want change in the party is that they are not willing to put in the hard work...and field candidates who can win...you need to start at the grass roots level and work within the party to create the change you desire... you must be part of something to have a right to call for change. And if your candidate loses the primary then you still vote Democratic...vote Democratic period. And I will finish by saying criticizing a party does not make those who won't join want to be a part of it...it merely confirms what they already thought.

[aikoaiko]

50. I disagree. There is a growing set of voters who are more interested in issues/principles than party

and they want to Democratic party to meet their interests because we are one of two big parties. Some of them are in the party and some of them are outside the party.

The party above all else is not going to resonate as much as it once did.


If you think we lost in 2010 and 2016 only or mostly because of criticism, I think you're wrong. Obama was also criticism in 2012 and he won big and began the more progressive half of his presidency. In 2016, one of the criticizers, Bernie Sanders, helped give independents and dissatisfied Democrats reason to stick with the party.

[brush]

61. Open you eyes. Repugs keep their criticism behind closed doors once they have a candidate

I say open your eyes because the control the House, Senate, White House and Supreme court while you are arguing for us to keep arguing and criticizing the party.

Just look around to see how how to win. It's not endless, public criticism of the party and thinking that attracts new voters.

It's just the opposite of that.

Unity is strength.

Discord and contrarianism leads to losing, as we keep seeing.

We need to keep that in-house, work our difference out behind closed doors.

[Demsrule86]

90. As someone once said Lincoln ("a house divided can not stand")

[Demsrule86]

64. I absolutely believe we lost because of criticism...which confirmed what those on the edge

believed. If the party above all else does not resonate in the age of Trump...and I think you are wrong about that, than prepare yourself for a right wing America because that is what will happen...as Cary said vote Democratic...and that's that. If you can't bring yourself to vote for the Democrat when the other option is a bat shit crazy,pussy grabbing asshat who wants to blow up the world than there is nothing we can do because you can't please everyone...accept the big tent Democratic Party or we lose. and don't blame Democrats for losses either ...no party can be the most perfect, the most pure...and everything to everyone...after the primary vote Democratic in all cases or take your ball and go home...but prepare for the consequences of such an action.

[Cary]

55. There are a lot of objective studies on this

But it should also be common sense. Negativity is negative.

Duh.

It's almost amusing to observe the cognitive dissonance at work.

[brush]

60. I completely disagree with this statement or yours

"Seeing and hearing Democrats and allies criticize the party will help them have faith that the party can improve."

That happened throughout the 2016 campaign and contributed to turning off many voters who went third party or didn't vote out of disgust at our disarray.

I said this earlier, look at the repugs. Once they have a candidate they line up behind them and it works as they now control the House, Senate, White House and Supreme Court.

We can not continue trashing the party and expect to be unified once the elections come around.

That's contrarian and nonsensical.

[Demsrule86]

63. Yes indeed. I would argue that more than a few GOP types

dislike Trump but they lined up and voted for him anyway...they understood the importance of the courts.

[brush]

58. Different opinions on some things but not on overall direction the party should move towards...

and that's defeating repugs with progressive ideas that help people, not just millionaires.

We can argue about and work out how to get there once we win.

[Demsrule86]

62. I agree ....defeating Repugs is our first job...we can cross the 't's' and dot the 'i's' after

we accomplish this...thus saving the party, the country and the world.

[Stinky The Clown]

38. K&R

[kerry-is-my-prez]

40. Let's just get the Repubs out and Dems or Indys who will vote with the Dems.

Some areas (like where I'm from) are solidly Rep - but maybe an Indy could win. A Dem would be preferred of course (unless it's another Joe Manchin).

[Demsrule86]

43. Manchin votes with the Dems about 80% of the time...

and is a step up from any red state Republican...and a Democrat who can get elected in a solid red area will be like Manchin.

[lies]

51. Agreed

But sowing discord seems to be the plan these days.

Every day I see more and more sustained criticism of the DNC on Twitter and in comments sections... There was a moment that unity was not only possible, but probable after the election, but that's opportunity was wasted.

Now it's just divide divide divide.

[Cary]

59. Deny them and their sophistry

We are the majority.

Vote Democratic.

[Demsrule86]

66. Thanks Carey great post.

Last edited Sat Apr 15, 2017, 12:58 PM - Edit history (1)

Vote Democratic...simple and true.

[Demsrule86]

67. Thanks Cary great post.

Last edited Sat Apr 15, 2017, 12:58 PM - Edit history (1)

Vote Democratic...simple and true.

[lies]

70. To be clear

I'm insulted almost daily on Democratic forums. Or attacked.sure I was today. And yesterday. On DU.

Hard to ignore that.

My attitude is two fold:

- honest criticism is how you get better... Trump is thin skinned and Democrats mock him for that, but on here and a few other supposedly liberal places being thin skinned seems to be a prerequisite.

Any criticism is seen as an attack and critics - even one that vote Democrat and always have - like me - are on a daily basis made feel unwelcome, or undeserving of an opinion.

It's bad enough that I have to self-censor, but to have to walk on eggshells even discussing policy, making sure I toe the party line so I'm not attacked is pretty unbearable.

And of course even saying that is probably enough to get some folks to tell me to leave.

Anyway... I don't feel welcome here most of the time.

It probably means that I should just take the hint and... Well I'd say support another party, but there's not one for me seemingly... So just vote for a few random people I like and ignore the rest.

Which is a shame, not that anyone here gives a shit.

[Cary]

73. We.are in a war against fascists

So let's attack FDR and Winston Churchill and make it more difficult.

[synergie]

74. Yeah, that goes both ways. Defending Democrats gets you the same abuse.

[lies]

75. I think

There's a tension between defending people (or attacking them) based purely on party and doing the same based on their behavior or policies.

Politicians have a very long history of making promises to get elected then forgetting those promises after being elected.

There seems to be an unwillingness to allow any criticism if it touches anyone with a D behind their name.

That seems like self-destructive behavior.

[synergie]

79. Nope

People are just fine with attacking Democrats in familiar right wing ways, they're Trump-thinskinned when it comes to certain people, despite what they say, what they do and how they choose to do it.

Attacking the party and those in it is just fine for some people, as long as no one says anything less than adulatory about their personal heroes. And that's not even attacking, that's literally not posting adulation, even saying something about other Democrats and not mentioning them is considered an attack and treated as such.

The tension here is the double standards, the knee jerk reactions and deliberately inflammatory behavior of the newly awakened and the newly returned. There is a difference between criticism and attack, but people seem to choose attack most often, and they view literally anything that is not demonstrative of devoted adulation as a reason to attack.

Yes, politicians have such a reputation, but consider that when pointing out that certain politicians engage in this behavior is considered worthy of attack, silencing etc. that it's not quite a fair discussion that's being had.

There seems to be an unwillingness to actually engage in criticism of certain people in favor of savaging of anyone with a "D" behind their names, based on who they supported.

This is DESTRUCTIVE behavior, but it's not being done by Dems to themselves, we are able to discuss and disagree and criticize, but there is that element of the hyper-reactive inflammatory folks who are not part of the party, enjoy telling us so, and who are lobbing the grenades.

Calling out these divisive, destructive, discord sowing forces is something we all need to be doing, especially as the evidence mounts about just how many of these folks are malicious infiltrators.

Perhaps less sensitivity, fewer attacks and a more tempered tone would be in order. We should be able to criticize ALL democrats and those who caucus with D's right? Not just certain people? And no one should be attacked, silenced or smeared, right?

[Demsrule86]

91. That would be because we want to win and all this

criticism causes us to lose...the idea that constant criticism leads to victory is simply not true...just the opposite...fight it out in the primary and then vote Democratic period. Get involved in the party and work towards the changes you want ...but don't make your demands equal your vote...because that elects Republicans...and that is never a good idea.

[lies]

95. I don't think that's true

Frankly.

I think by endlessly silencing criticism of bad behavior you're reminding independents and left leaning Democrats that the party is more important than ideals.

BTW. Getting involved is hardly an option as those in power are hardly about to hand it over to upstarts. They have their own agenda I can chose to support or not.

And frankly, many Dems don't want anything to do with my notions of gun laws, Healthcare policies or education proposals. That much has been made clear to me many hundreds of times.

[Demsrule86]

102. I don't think that is what independents vote on...and if they hear constantly how

bad a party is ...then they will believe. As for getting involved...they beg for volunteers. in my area. So we are a big tent...there will be people with different ideas and that is fine ...but you won't always get what you want out of any party...do you think elected GOP types are better?

[bekkilyn]

85. Nice post

I'm waiting to see what direction the Democratic party will take for the upcoming elections before I decide either to remain with the party or go back to being Unaffiliated. We do need to defeat 45 and get rid of the republicans, but it needs to be done in a principled way that doesn't throw the "little guy" under the bus in favor of the privileged elites. I live in a red state and I absolutely will not vote for a Manchin type any more than I'd vote GOP. I'm done with those type of people and there's no better time than now to get rid of *all* the swamp.

So if the party decides to unite behind the "little guy" in action (voting records, donors, etc.) as well as words, I'm in, so we'll just have to see what happens.

[Demsrule86]

93. I am not 'privleged' enough to care how we get rid of Trump.

How nice that you have choice.

[bekkilyn]

107. We all have choice

But I will no longer let fear determine who gets my votes. Give us good candidates in red states or keep losing us.

[Demsrule86]

99. And you think the GOP you help win are going to be better?

[Demsrule86]

65. I wonder how many are Russian plants.

[Cary]

68. A fair number for sure

Vote Democratic

[Demsrule86]

69. I think so.

[lies]

76. look at the comments

tons of divisiveness.

If I was a Sanders supporter wondering if the Democrats were the party for me and I wandered onto DU well, let's just say I'd probably not become a Democrat.

Ironic how many of these threads about divisiveness are full of people high-fiving each other for being extremely divisive.

[Demsrule86]

96. Really because the Republicans are so much better I suppose...(sarcasm)

I happen to like the Democratic Party and am proud to be a member.

[Demsrule86]

98. I would also like to point out that no one is attacking Sanders which is against

TOS...I have not mentioned him in fact. And I won't.

[cheapdate]

77. Criticize and rebut policies and ideas, never "Democrats".

Criticize specific policies and ideas all day long. Make a moral argument. Make a factual argument. Expose fallacies. Whatever. But leave the word "Democrats" out. Always. It's not helpful.

[lies]

78. Doesn't work

I've tried that.

The second you mention any person by name, even just for context, if it's a [word you dont' want me to say] you'll likely have your post deleted.

There's few ways to discuss things that need discussing without mentioning specific people - we mention specific Republicans all day long without fear of posts being deleted - and as soon as you mention person x - if they're a [word I can't mention] you'll find yourself attacked and your post deleted.

[cheapdate]

80. Let's test that assertion...

Hillary Clinton has a traditional outlook on U.S foreign policy and America's role in the world. Her outlook is guided in part by a belief that American-style democracy and American-style capitalism offer the best means to alleviate suffering and improve people's lives around the world. She believes that America has a moral obligation to export these ideas -- even to impose them on other countries.

I have a different view that's both ethical and political. I'm ethically much more critical of American-style capitalism and politically of the opinion that it's the citizens of other countries who are primarily responsible for sorting out their own political future and not the United States.

What says DU?

[lies]

83. That's not gonna do anything

First, your post is extremely anodyne. If you wrote that using the same OTT and hyperbolic language that is allowed against Republicans, your post would likely be flagged, deleted, and you'd be banned from this thread.

Second, how about this:

In 2011 Party A tried to shut down a government office because it was supposedly biased against a certain segment of the population. Serious folks thought that was a weird claim, because it was actually run by several people in that segment of the population. Dozens of people from Party A voted to shut it down, but it failed. After it failed, Party A and Party B both told the press that the government office needed to be made impotent, and that maybe they could work together on that.

Fast forward a number of years.

Party B tries to shut down the SAME office.

Party A flips out, claims it means all sorts of nasty things about Party B, and fundraises on the back of Party B doing what Party A did a few years earlier.

If I make this ANY more specific this post will be deleted. I will be banned from this thread.

We can't even have a proper conversation about this, because people here will see it as an attack and move to silence it.

I know because it's happened to me. Twice.

If I wasn't into hypocrisy, and wanted to try and help the party be more consistent, I could EASILY use this example of a short-sighted attempt to gain political points at the expense of integrity as a way to illustrate my point. Except it would be deleted and that conversation would be forbidden.

If I remembered what happened in 2011, which many might, and saw what happened at a later point AND if I was a voter that was turned off by hypocrisy and wanted to vent, I would find myself attacked as being a traitor, or a Republican stooge, etc., etc.

[cheapdate]

88. On that point I certainly agree...

If one uses the same hyperbolic language to attack Democrats on Democratic Underground as is allowed when attacking Republicans then one stands a good chance of having her post deleted.

Democratic Underground exists to support the election of Democrats to public office.

Criticism of the party or its members is perfectly acceptable when it stays focused on ideas and doesn't sink into scorched-earth diatribes against the party. As long as one avoids impugning character, asserting nefarious and hidden motives, and spinning into dark allegations of moral degeneracy, then they'll be fine.

There aren't any policies, strategies, or ideas that we can't openly talk about, but there are ways of talking about them and ways of framing them that won't fly.

I'm not sure what issue you had a problem with. Seems like maybe you're referring to the controversy over the IRS's enforcement of rules relating to tax-exempt charitable organizations. But I can't tell.

[lies]

92. The problem

Is that on many occasions Democrats behavior simply can't be discussed honestly, even in attempts to make the party better.

The example I referred to is a perfect example.

You literally can't understand what I'm saying.

If I make it so that you can the post will be deleted.

That behavior is short sighted censorship and turns off people.

This place IMO would do a lot more to help Democrats if it was more welcoming and less heavy handed in its censorship.

Surely people here must see the hypocrisy in attacking Trump for being thin skinned, while censoring any posts that say, "I wish [Democratic Party politician X] was less thin skinned, he reminds in that respect of what I dislike about Trump".

Even typing that very deliberately vague and hypothetical sentense threatens this post with deletion.

[Demsrule86]

103. Send mail so we know what you are talking about.

I don't believe in free trade...and many here disagree with me.

[cheapdate]

105. You keep saying that...that your post would be deleted.

I highly doubt that a reasoned argument over a matter of policy, ideas, or governance would be deleted. But we each have our own different expectations.

[Demsrule86]

101. There is nothing wrong with that post.

No jury would ever delete it.

[cheapdate]

106. Thank you.

[Demsrule86]

100. When you mentions names that is about a person by definition...

Issues could be single payer, TPP, how shitty Trump is...and etc etc etc...(Just saw the "Kind and I&quot

[Demsrule86]

97. sure...I was against the TPP...

but I never went after Pres Obama...I made expressed my opinion about the policy.

[cheapdate]

104. Me too.

I have strongly held reasons for opposing the TPP, but I recognize that it's an issue about which reasonable people can disagree. Neither can I fault someone for having a character deficiency just because they don't share my outlook on globalization.