Are we being divided and conquered?

[randr]

We all witnessed the Republican Party become fractured and ultimately taken over by what we at first called the "tea bagger" movement. It only took a few years for corporate interests and social media manipulation to turn the GOP on its head. What was once a "grand" party has devolved into a cesspool of international corporate criminals who do whatever they want for personal profit. Governing for the people be damned. Not only do they not know how to govern, they have no intent to govern.
We all have now just witnessed the manipulation of a Presidential election by similar tactics and possibly the same well organized cabal of criminal corporate interests.
I do not think these events are without coincidence. I think the attack on DU on election day was a part of this without putting on a tin hat.
DU was a bastion of thoughtful, intelligent, open minded, and respectful discussion. A place where ideas concerns and ideas were shared in the hopes that they would somehow enter the national mindset and help to direct our nation toward a positive future.
The recent divisiveness of our discussions and outright dismissive posts attempting to establish some sort of hard held idealistic definition of some sort of supposed progressive ideology is disturbing. I sense a pattern and am not convinced that we not are being subjected to a form of the old "divide and conquer" strategy by outside forces.
I really have no idea of how to deal with this. Witnessing the collapse of American conservative ideology makes me fear for what is left of our Democratic ideology at the hands of these anti life forces.

[dchill]

1. Divided? Definitely. Conquered? Not yet, I hope.

[TheDebbieDee]

82. +10000

[ck4829]

2. You want to do something about it? Get out and support these threads

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10141760470
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10141760135
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10141760231
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10028973223

[FSogol]

4. Sorry, but posting on DU is not activism. Go out in the real world and attend your

local Democratic meetings. There is probably a food bank nearby that needs some help too.

[randr]

16. You make an important point

Engaging in our communities to make our nation better on neighborhood at a time have been my purpose throughout my life.
However, posting on DU is an active part of this as we all have the opportunity to educate and inspire each other to do exactly what you suggest.
Activism is inspired by thoughtful discussion and a better understanding of the issues we are facing.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

79. Exactly!

[Raster]

5. Thank you!

[disillusioned73]

21. I like..

your infopedia site.. will keep checking it out..

[vlyons]

3. The way to fight the dividers

is to keep speaking your own truth. There are plenty of people on DU, I think even a majority, of us who understand that we need to come together to defeat the Grifters of Profit (GOP). At the same time, we need to understand that there are some people, who cannot let go of a grudge and must constantly assign blame to others, when things don't go as they desire. We cannot change the trolls and force them to grow up. But we can refuse to feed their frenzy by not engaging in arguing with them. If someone's trolling really upsets you, put them on IGNORE.

[randr]

7. I am fairly certain some "trolls" are actually agents of disruption

I have place a very few posters on IGNORE as I am not inclined to ignore and argument.

[cstanleytech]

73. You missed one important thing though, listening.

The Democratic party isnt a group of people with one voice its a group with many voices and if we ignore the voices of the ones that do not sound exactly like what we want to hear then we risk becoming like the Repugnant party so listening is also a key thing we need to do as well and we need to realize that we are not likely to agree on every little detail most of us do agree on some things like Trumps an asshole.

[ProfessorGAC]

6. Yes (eom)

[Blanks]

8. It's Bernie...

I've pointed out many times that part of the 'Russian election hack' was the 'Berniebots' and how they would go into Bernie message boards and spread false news about Hillary Clinton. Rachel did a couple of segments on it, so it's not just me making shit up.

I believe a large percentage of those who continue to support Sanders are sincere supporters who want to change the direction of the party, and some of those supporters unknowingly repeat these 'troll talking points.'

I stopped visiting DU for a long time during (and after) the primaries because of the kind of attacks by Bernie supporters on Hillary supporters and the democratic party in general.

It is purely Bernie dialog that is driving the wedge between democrats. It makes sense that the Russians would continue to use this 'method' to divide democrats ideologically at a time when we really need to be focused on Trump scandals.

I don't know how to deal with it either, but I believe Bernie discussions are the problem. I see them infiltrating discussions on twitter too. Regurgitating the same 'Hillary was a weak candidate' nonsense.

Hillary was a good candidate, undermined just before the election by Comey. After the convention she had a double digit lead, it was the constant drip, drip, drip of bullshit that damaged the campaign. Not the candidate.

[2naSalit]

12. +1

[retrowire]

13. So it's not bernie

But rather discussion of Bernie?

[Blanks]

15. True...

and a good point. I think Bernie is a legitimate politician, but he needs to acknowledge that he was a tool in the hack so we can point to that as a part of what has gone wrong.

Then he can move on forwarding his agenda, and we can discuss it with everyone recognizing that he may not have been as popular as the internet activity might have indicated.

[retrowire]

18. Good perspective! Nt

[Kentonio]

20. Jesus christ..

Please go back and read what you just wrote. You basically just condescendingly decided that Bernie wasn't really that popular, and if he comes out like a good boy and tells everyone he was just a manipulated tool of hackers that you'll kindly allow him to put his case.

And people wonder why there's a divide in the party..

[JudyM]

23. +1.

[Blanks]

50. Don't you think that Bernie should acknowledge that he is aware...

That there were trolls on the internet posing as Bernie Sanders supporters, for the sole purpose of bashing Hillary and democrats?

Even if there was ONE troll from Russia promoting Bernie, he was less popular than he thought he was, and there were apparently dozens (maybe hundreds) of people, working full time to tear Hillary and the democrats down while promoting him.

I don't care how condescending it sounds. That's the reality, his campaign was helped by Russian hackers/trolls to tear down Hillary Clinton. He needs to come out and recognize that he played a role in Trump winning the election.

We'd get to the bottom of this Russian hack of our election scandal if he acknowledged that it happened. Actual Bernie supporters who voted for Trump would take the hack more seriously if he acknowledged it.

That would be Bernie doing something that would help those of us who used to respect him to regain some of that respect.

[Cary]

56. So what?

This is an opinion. The radical left is always pitching a fit about not uniting because that would impinge on their "freedom." So why elevate Bernie Sanders to something above criticism? Does it not work both ways?

Sanders is not perfect and what he advocates isn't perfect either. He is human. Don't do cults of personality.

[Blue Ridge Virginia]

63. "the radical left is always pitching a fit"

is EXACTLY what the Kremlin wants to throw as a grenade into discussions here and elsewhere. I don't want Sanders or Clinton as the nominee in 2020 and put on ignore anyone who wants to argue in favor or against either of them.

[Cary]

84. Gee, as of this reply you have all of three posts

And you make a thinly-veiled threat to me about ignore, and accuse me of repeating "what the Kremlin wants to throw as a grenade?"

[LakeArenal]

71. Please don't let this become a debate about Bernie...again..

It's really off topic anyway. We are discussing ways to stop the flamethrowers.

I probably agree with you. This is about the comment you responded to rather than you.

[Akamai]

57. "Tool in the hack" -- what are you referring to? I am unfamiliar with that argument.

[Blanks]

65. Russian trolls/hackers infiltrated pro-Sanders discussion groups...

and used their 'pretend' support for Sanders to get a 'foot in the door' to spread fake news about Hillary and repeat cliche's so that people who were less versed in politics would hear the same kind of negative information in multiple places and shape their opinion of the candidates.

Things like:

Hillary is a weak candidate.
The Clinton Foundation is 'pay to play' for the State Department
Hillary deleted a bunch of emails to cover something up
Hillary sent a bunch of classified emails through her private server

So, even though Sanders wasn't involved with the Russians (I assume), a lot of bad things about Hillary were spread by the Russians on pro-Sanders message boards, FaceBook and Twitter by hackers/trolls pretending to be for Bernie Sanders.

He was an unwitting tool in the Russian election hack because he welcomed the support and has taken no role in bringing the scandal to light.

[vlyons]

31. no, it's the trolls posing as Bernie supporters

Bernie has a lot of worthwhile things to say. And the Bernie-posing trolls and bots use him to divide us. OK, so we all need to realize and recognize this tactic. It worked so well in 2016, that for sure they will attempt to defeat us with it again. So beware.

[retrowire]

32. Sigh

This young democrat wonders if politics were easier before the internet...

[disillusioned73]

43. There has always been..

folks that were susceptible to propaganda and mis-information.. The internet has just amplified the affect.. They tend to want to believe what they are being told though.. so stick to verifiable facts and always question intentions and you should be ok..

[retrowire]

45. That's why I'm askin' questions I guess.

It just sucks getting so many answers from all sides. Oof

[disillusioned73]

48. I'd say listen to your gut..

but I am unawares of your instinctual acumen.. I have a serious bullshit radar, especially in person.. on the internet it can get tough at times, especially when things are moving a mile-a-minute.

Be true to yourself and your beliefs is all I can recommend at this point, not sure where you fall on the political spectrum but the left is in a power struggle and we'll see how it all plays out in the coming months/years..

[vlyons]

72. know what your own values are

What do you value more - the acquisition of money and power at any cost, or supporting people to live better happier lives? If you were a millionaire, would you be any happier with even more millions? Or would you be happier using some of that money to create college scholarships or donated to Planned Parenthood? Do you resent paying taxes, except when it goes to the war machine? Clarify your own values.

[disillusioned73]

22. You do realize..

the door swings both ways.. right?

[Blanks]

26. I realize it does on saloon doors...

but what specifically do you mean?

[disillusioned73]

30. You seem to focus..

on pro-Bernie agitators, but my thinking is that we may be seeing them from both directions.. that's all

Why stir the pot strictly from a one-sided aspect.. something to ponder...

[Blanks]

33. Bernie is not a democrat. eom

[disillusioned73]

37. Oh goodness...

[Blanks]

40. You are engaging in exactly the kind of behavior that I was warning about. Bye now. eom

[retrowire]

47. :( it's just a fucking title nt

[Blanks]

58. I disagree...

He wants to take advantage of the party infrastructure while maintaining his own position on the issues. The democrats were wrong to let him run as a democrat. I hope they don't make that mistake again.

It's not just a title, it's a philosophy of governing. If congress had 100 different parties nothing would get done. Look at how ineffective the republicans are because of the freedom caucus, that's just a couple of differing philosophies.

We need a message that is clear and forwarded by party leadership and reinforced by the rank and file. It is our message that Sanders is disrupting, and that's why spending so much time talking about his message is unproductive. It is not the party platform.

He should either become a democrat and try to influence the platform, or build his own party and build it's platform. What he is doing is forwarding the conservative agenda by encouraging divisiveness in the party.

[Plucketeer]

55. ELL OH ELL!

That DAMNED (D) again! It impedes poor Sanders from ACTING like one! When a person puts on the MAGIC D there's an instant transformation in their thinking (substantially less objective) and their vocalizations (substantially more corporate-scripted). I think maybe I'll initiate a GO FUND ME drive to BUY Bernie a (D) to wear. I have no idea how expensive one is, but I'm guessing if you're not well greazed with special interests cash, ya just can't afford one!

[mwooldri]

60. "And [insert name] isn't a Progressive."

The fact that Mr. Sanders is not a fully paid up member of the Democratic Party shouldn't matter when one is building a coalition.

If the amount of Hillary bashing by alleged Bernie Sanders supporters kept you away, I can say that the reverse is true. I did go to Jackpine Radicals in its early months. Got too anti Hillary... way so much. Don't go there nowadays except out of morbid curiosity.

We got worse things to deal with than worrying about the "Bernie isn't a Democrat" issue. Personally I have more issues with Joe Manchin but it all comes down to building the coalition. A party of D in power is generally better than a party of R. But the Democratic Party has, and will continue to have, it's factions just like the Republican Party has it's factions. We used to say that getting Democrats together on an issue was like herding cats. Paul Ryan has found out he has a herd of cats, so that's why ocare repeal failed and why a government shutdown. Is looming... instigated by the party in power.

[LiberalLovinLug]

75. "Bernie is not a democrat"!

And there it is. When all else fails, the old "Bernie is not a Democrat!"

Why should Bernie apologize for Russian trolls hacking pro-Bernie sites?
Why is this his fault? Should he also apologize because Trump used his name in speeches as a victim of the DNC's underhandedness?

There are no real Sanders fans that ever fell for any of that. If there was any Sanders supporter that believed the kind of ridiculous Brietbart and InfoWars accusations, that even their candidate refused to entertain, then they were lost causes already. ie. they would never have voted for Clinton anyways. This was a tiny minority of those calling themselves Sanders supporters. Why this insistence to lump Russian trolls, with decent minded left-leaning Democrats?

I agree with your general premise that we must look out for trolls looking to stoke divisions. But you are not helping by pitting one side over the other. If I didn't know any better I'd think you think you are playing some kind of clever 3 level chess game where you stoke division under the guise of pleading for unity.

[Blanks]

83. I said acknowledge...

But if you think you can talk him into apologizing. I'd be ok with that too.

[LakeArenal]

64. Why oh why did you bring up Bernie.. We all know what we're talking about..

I have plenty to say about another candidate.But I am not going to do or say it.

[babylonsister]

87. Bullshit. And Berniebots? Stop it. nt

[Blanks]

89. I will stop when Rachel retracts the story...

She points out that Berniebots were a part of the Russian attack. Which is not to say that everyone supporting Bernie is a bot.

...but, if this story is accurate, then Bernie was not as popular as he and his supporters believed he was.

[2naSalit]

9. Currently appears that it may be so...

Hope I'm wrong.

[retrowire]

10. Yep we're fucked. Nt

[FSogol]

11. No, after the Reagan Revolution, the media wrote an obituary for the Democratic Party.

That is not happening now. Trump will be impeached and Democrats will fill the House and Senate in 2018 despite the dividers and ratfuckers around us feeble attempts at divison. DU is here to entertain and educate. All the petty web squabbles have little real life implications. A clown who promoted Sanders and then voted Stein didn't do so because of fights on DU. Despite all their noise, they were never going to vote with us.

[meow2u3]

34. From your mouth to God's ears

If we expose the attempts of trolls and stealth conservos to divide us--as well as getting out to the polls in such numbers as to overcome the "red shift" of cheat voting machines, we will do just that.

[Volstagg]

14. Both parties are going through identity issues right now.

History tells us that the party that splits into two first loses because it will take a while to reestablish and those in the split aligned kind of with the other party will go to that party.

We need to make sure it is the Repub party that splits first.

[randr]

19. There is a history of slow entrophy of political ideology our nation

The changes we are now seeing are abrupt and intentional.

[Volstagg]

24. I feel like there has been tension in Dems

between progressives and moderates for some time. This was an issue during Obama's first primary, too. It's not new. The Republicans have been dealing with the Tea Party wing for some time. One of these conflicts will come to a head before the other. It needs to be the Republicans.

[randr]

27. The tension has escalated beyond ideas

and has become more a cult of personalities. I don't think the "tea party wing" has any influence at all with the lsos, his toadies, or whoever is really pulling the world toward another world wide conflict. My suspicions are that the Russian and American versions of the Military Industrial Complex are merging behind our backs.

[Volstagg]

28. I think those are two different things.

The tea party wing is what may lead to a split in the Republicans.

Trump and the Russians may have used that wing to their advantage, but if we are going to discuss the evolution of political parties, the Tea Party is the group to discuss within the Repubs.

[randr]

35. My only suspicion is that the forces behind the Tea Party

are the same forces that hacked our election.

[Volstagg]

36. That would be a pretty impressive slow con.

I mean, they would have had to start planning this like a decade ago.

[randr]

38. Many of the players in our WH have been engaged for decades

They infiltrated and took over the easiest target and know are attempting to eliminate the competition.

[BainsBane]

17. It isn't about DU

These conflicts are happening throughout the party, at the DNC and throughout the country because women's rights proponents don't want to see us relegated to second-class citizenship. It is unfortunate that we are having to have this discussion again, but for some reason certain elements have decided they are benefited by undermining equal rights. The party was united (with the exception of a couple of outliers) around women's rights until Sanders decided to announce it wasn't part of being progressive. The DNC has realized they fucked up by supporting Mello, but Sanders won't do the same. That may because so many of his supporters prefer to tell women to keep their mouths shut than express concerns to Sanders.

There are essays being published about this in many major outlets. Pretending it's just about arguments at DU is factually false.

[LakeArenal]

70. We're not trying to deny the global rights of women...

We're trying to get the flame throwers from hogging all the discussion.. Sheesh..

[BainsBane]

80. I repeat, this is a current and important issue

about the future of the party, which would not be happening if some weren't advocating deprioritizing it. You can trash threads, but you aren't good no to convince people to remain silent while their basic rights are threatened. NARAL and other abortion-rights groups have made clear they will not sit back while reactionaries seek to turn the clock back a half century. Women are the majority of a Democrats. Our rights matter, and we have the votes within the party to defend them.

I don't like seeing content-free fan club threads day in and day out, so I trash them. You can do the same with threads about issues of equal rights and economic justice that you don't want to see.

Those who were active in women's issues in the 60s and 70s say they can't believe they are having discussions from that era because some seek to recover a past were a privileged demographic prospered at the expense of the subjugation of the majority. We will not shut up because restorationists consider the lives and rights of women inconvenient.

If you want unity, stand up for equal rights rather than telling abortion-rights proponents to remain silent.

[LakeArenal]

85. Post your own thread then. It's important enough to suppport it's own thread.

That's not the discussion here. We're talking about what some believe is a strategy of divide and conquer to get us squabbling with each other.

[Greybnk48]

25. Yes. A Russian cyber coup d'etat.

And it's working.

[Demit]

29. By hinting at "outside forces" you insult the people here who have legitimate complaint.

Talk about outright dismissive posts!

I am not a Russian bot. I was not a Russian plant inserted into DU 12 years ago. I'm a Democrat with opinions. When I express my opinions here I back them with reasons and factual information.

You want an idea of "how to deal with this"? Stop with the sssh!!! stop talking!!! posts and let people have their say.

[randr]

39. You are free and welcome to express information and opinions regarding the Democratic principles we

are here to develop and promote. My beef is with those who would use this privilege to interrupt this free expression of ideas by constantly throwing mud at the other side or just posting to agitate anyone they happen to disagree with.

[Demit]

66. Gosh, thanks.

But I have opinions on more than just Democratic principles. I have opinions on how Democratic principles are being upheld by specific Democratic people. How those principles are being put into action, by specific officials with big microphones.

Apparently one man's expression of opinion is another man's throwing of mud, and that's a problem. One thing I have found so fucking remarkable in the last few days is the incessant prejudging of people's motives, such as you have just exhibited here.

[LakeArenal]

74. There's a huge difference between a principled discussion...

and posters who post just to rile things up. Throwing mud is not a principled discussion. We're talking about posters who stalk people they disagree with, who throw labels around rather than ideas. The ones that you see on every divisive post over and over. Saying the same things just to piss people off.

You discuss rationally, other posters can, too.

[randr]

86. Thanks

[H2O Man]

41. Recommended.

Well said. Thank you for this.

[annabanana]

42. Botskis and Trollskis . . yes indeed! . . .n/t

[Act_of_Reparation]

44. "Being" implies we are passive, unwilling participants.

We are not being divided. We are dividing ourselves.

And very little of it has to do with substantive differences in political thought. It's about tribalism and social status in a closed society. The world is burning down and we're busy throttling each other for liberal cred.

[randr]

46. I fear someone is throwing gas on the fire.

[Act_of_Reparation]

52. Occam's Razor.

The answer requiring the fewest assumptions is the most reasonable.

Don't underestimate our capacity to be childish and petty, or overestimate outside interest in these forums. We were like this long before the primaries.

[Pauldg47]

49. R u a Rooski?

[HopeAgain]

59. Privet moi paranoidal'nyye druz'ya

[lame54]

51. they were lured into the van with candy...

the problem was that the repugs over-filled the van and didn't realize that the TB's were already on a sugar high

they could not control them

[ananda]

53. Yes, we're in that process.

But we don't have to be ...

[hay rick]

54. Concerning DU...

During the last election, the DU community got fractured. A lot of self-described progressives and Bernie supporters were baited and evicted. A critical mass departed to form JPR leaving that important element underrepresented in DU. Sadly, JPR seems to be consumed by delusional Hillary hate. Several of the posters who provided refreshing balance at DU are less readable in their new home. The two separated parts of the old DU add up to less than the original. The current pro-Bernie/anti-Bernie threads mostly serve to continue the work of setting well-meaning Democrats against each other instead of against the truly monstrous enemy.

[Martin Eden]

67. +1

The truly monstrous enemy smiles when we're at each others throats.

[Blue Ridge Virginia]

68. thank you, ALMOST equally disgusted by both sites

but the uncritical hero-worship on one is even more disgusting than the other, with less critical blowback. Bernistas and Clintonistas all need to GET OUT OF THE WAY for whomever is our 2020 nominee, even if we don't know yet who it will be. As a 60-something, I feel strongly that anyone over 70 is too damn old for the job.

[Demit]

78. I don't see these "Clintonista" posts. The ones I see have legitimate criticism of an elected

official and his actions on a so-called Unity Tour. Was Hillary Clinton on the Unity Tour? Is she making comments on the weakness of the Democratic party? Is she on talk shows being asked her opinion on who's a true progressive? Is she in politics any longer AT ALL? No. It's Bernie Sanders who is. Bernie's the one still in politics. He stands or falls on what he's doing currently, and what he's doing is fair game for criticism.

[mvd]

88. I get so many alerts about fighting the primary again

Often I have to vote "close call, but it doesn't break the rule" because it's just part of back and forth in a thread. Pretty sad; hope we can be united for the next election.

[ehrnst]

61. We certainly are. And it's not by a Republican politician. (nt)

[BannonsLiver]

62. I just auto trashed "Bernie" and "Bernie Sanders"

So far the results are glorious.

[Orsino]

69. Always.

Sometimes we do it to ourselves.

But DU kerfuffles don't translate to the real world very well. I think the party's fine.

[lovemydogs]

76. Its not progressives.

I am new. I am a progressive.
I did not join to divide and conquer because I keep asking why all the rage.
I think progressives are being scapegoated.
Read my post on the history of the Progressive movement.
I am not about hard and fast ideology. I am about wanting to see my party reconnect with its new deal roots and fight back against the corporate take over of my country.
I see my town falling apart. I see people suffering. I see average families unable to make ends meet.
I also am concerned for the raping of our schools.
Programs being destroyed that used to help people.
I have felt, since the 80s that the country needs to go back to the new deal and make things right for everyday people and not just the rich.

But, while I was not here on election day, I have read that some progressive and democratic blogs did sustain attacks before and during the election.

[HughBeaumont]

81. Well, hey, blaming us has GOT to be easier than looking in a mirror.

First they scolded the left for the upset in the form of Tone Policing. We lost because we called the snowflake Conservatives (who insult Democrats like it was an Olympic sport) names instead of engaging these people who are openly racist, homophobic and worship Supply-Side Economics. That sure makes sense somehow.

Now they're scolding us for support of a candidate that understands you have to FIRST win elections before you can GET anything DONE. But that somehow makes more sense than realizing a strategy of saying "We suck LESS than Republicans" isn't going to cut it in Woke 2016.

Straight up marginalizing people who are telling you "You NEED TO GET A CLEAR ECONOMIC MESSAGE WITHOUT PANDERING OR LYING" . . . yeah, that's a great plan.

Welcome to DU.

[jberryhill]

77. Yes