It appears that Spain is on the verge of doing something Obama refuses to do

[joelz]

put banksters in jail

A major force pushing for ex-IMF and Bankia chief Rodrigo Rato’s prosecution has been the May 15 Movement, or M15, known around the world as the "indignados." Organized largely through social media, the M15 launched massive protests in Spain over unemployment, corruption and political stagnation. In Madrid, Democracy Now! host Amy Goodman interviews Stéphane Grueso, an activist and filmmaker who is making a documentary about the M15 movement. Responding to the news of Rato’s investigation, Grueso says: "Finally it happens that maybe, eventually, one of these guys is going to pay. Because we citizens, we have this impression that none of these big guys have any problem, [ever]. They do what they want — they steal, they lie, and nothing [ever] happens. But now, today, [something] is starting to happen."

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/7/5/something_is_starting_to_happen_spains

[Baitball Blogger]

1. In all fairness they are a much older nation and know

this thing doesn't get better with time.

Spain's education level is one of the highest in the world, but the economy has not been so great for a long time. They can't suffer fools.

[valerief]

10. The people alive in Spain have access to history like the people alive in the U.S.

Spanish people aren't vampires. They haven't lived longer lifetimes than U.S. people.

[Baitball Blogger]

13. Their nation is much older than ours. I'm sure you understood that's

what I meant.

Their military (Gran Armada) plus christian inquisition era was long ago, and thankfully, they know the lesson that the U.S. is failing to heed.

[valerief]

16. The people in Spain aren't older than the people in the U.S. History books are available to people

in both countries. Every generation has to learn. Generations aren't born with special knowledge.

[Baitball Blogger]

55. Non sequitor.

[truedelphi]

27. They also have a system that is not

Corrupted. There are multiple people running for office. No empty suits.

Every nation in the world that is not wasting all its money on military matters, and that has Universal Single Payer (or something close to it) also have vibrant democracies, where the people are offered more than two major parties. Instead trhese other nations have a really robust selection processes.

You can include Iceland and France in the mix.


We in this country already know that come what will in November, we will either end up with a man who headed Bain Capital and enriched his own coffers at the expense of American jobs, or a man who is close friends with Geithner and others who did the same. Both of these men will continue the path our nation is on. Which is cut throat to the middle class, and wholly beholden to the Big Financial and Big Military people.

[truedelphi]

25. Thank you for some reality. Glad to see the

vampire concept has been squashed.

[Marr]

26. Our government is a hell of a lot older than theirs. /nt

[aquart]

2. Hope it trends.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

3. The banksters in this country will only be put in prison when a sufficient number of the

super-rich have been screwed by the banksters.

Unless and until they make lots of noise for this to happen, it's not going to. When the taxpayer supplied bail-outs propped up the stock market, that was sufficient to put them at ease.

[hughee99]

9. If only Madoff were able to hold out a little longer

I suspect he might have gotten a bailout instead of a jail sentence.

[bahrbearian]

12. He got busted because he was steeling from the Rich

[hughee99]

14. I completely agree, but given the choice

the rich would have rather had the government cover their "losses" via bailout than take pennies on the dollar and see Madoff in jail.

[hughee99]

62. Interesting...

I didn't know this. Thanks.

[treestar]

4. Have they committed crimes?

What is the burden of proof in Spain?

Should people be jailed because they are employed in the banking field?

[sabrina 1]

5. Yes, they did commit crimes. So did the banksters here in this country.

The two-year investigation by the bi-partisan Senate Committee here in the US was completed about one year ago. Chairman of that Committee, Sen. Levin, stated that there was evidence of criminal activity and the Committee referred their findings to the DOJ.

So far, nothing more has come of that.

However, AGs such as Schneiderman in NY are looking into criminal charges.

Iceland already arrested and charged their crooked bankers, and took over the banks as soon as they discovered the corruption there.

Iceland is the only country that is on the rebound.

Letting crooks off the hook doesn't benefit anyone.

France will probably begin investigations next now that they got rid of Sarkozy and the right leaning politicians who have been protecting the banks there also.

[KansDem]

33. If corporations are now "people"...

Iceland already arrested and charged their crooked bankers, and took over the banks as soon as they discovered the corruption there.

...then why can't the Forfeiture and Seizure Act be enforced? It is for "the war on drugs," and now drunk drivers, so why not for criminal bankers and brokers?

Forfeiture, the government seizure of property connected to illegal activity, has been a major weapon in the Federal government's "war on drugs" since the mid-eighties. Two recent developments, however, have called attention to the darker side of this practice: a decision by New York City's Mayor, Rudolph Guiliani, to deploy forfeiture against drunk drivers, and a House-approved bill that would, if signed into law, drastically narrow the scope of the federal forfeiture statutes. Forfeiture is a potent deterent, as well as a revenue source on which law enforcement has grown increasingly dependent. However, it brings with it far fewer procedural safeguards than the criminal law.

In the words of former President George Bush, "<a>sset forfeiture laws allow <the government> to take the ill-gotten gains of drug kingpins and use them to put more cops on the streets." New York City Police Commissioner Howard Safir invoked deterence when he said, "We believe that ... the threat of civil forfeiture and the possibility of losing one's car, have served to reduce the number of motorists who are willing to take the chance of being caught driving drunk." On the other hand, a civil liberties group has filed suit challenging the legality and constitutionality of the New York City program. Citing some of the same constitutional concerns, the House passed a Bill that would drastically curtail the federal operation of the law.

--more--
http://www.law.cornell.edu/background/forfeiture/


Seize the corporation's assets before they go to trial. That's the way its done for suspected drug dealers and drunk drivers.

[truedelphi]

45. I love your idea. Buit for that to take place, we need

people in high places to see it happens. One reason that Bush had Homeland Security monitoring Elliot Spitzer's money activities (using wire tapping abilities) was because Spitzer would have gone after so many who are now entrenched in the oversight of financial practices. he as about to go after the Big Players, when Homeland Security realized he was sending money to a brothel. Who knows who would have been caught up in a net that Spitzer unleashed? Maybe Geithner would be in jail now... However, instead Sptizer was ousted, and the very people he might have gone after are now in even higher places of power.

See, there's the problem. To undo the mess, Obama himself would either have to come froward and say:

One) I didn't understand these matters (Not good to have the Chief Executive admit he doesn't understand the economic maneuvers his "good buddy" Timmy attends to.)

or
Two) I was actually part of the corruption. Yes, he would have to say he does know, which means he is party to the corruption.

it is an election year, so the likelihood that we get any serious investigations is pretty much nil. Both sides of the aisle are too corrupted. I mean, for all its bluster, does the Republican Party really want a focus to be on the immorality of all the maneuvers their candidate Mittens was part of?

[sabrina 1]

57. I'm up for that. Someone has all that money that seems to have disappeared

and it's time to start taking it back.

I like that it was the people in Spain, not their government, who finally seem to be getting some action.

The Indignados were the inspiration for OWS and as the movement grows, no matter how they try, the cannot suppress it, not until there is some acountability for what they have done.

[Ichingcarpenter]

6. Not to Amerikans that have to ask that question

Geez

[Egalitarian Thug]

15. +1

[SammyWinstonJack]

17. Incredible, right?

[Ichingcarpenter]

22. Not surprising

These old memes are getting tiresome after so much evidence of malfeasance.

WE DO LOOK AT WHO NOMINATES and doesn't

[treestar]

32. I find it incredible that we are just to cheer people going to jail on no charge or evidence

and no specific charge of any specific crime.

[Ichingcarpenter]

40. I'm sure the Spanish and Icelanders judicial system

are just ignorant assholes and not up to
American standards.

[girl gone mad]

56. Economist Joseph Stiglitz: Put Corporate Criminals in Jail

Might I suggest you take a break from posting, run down to your local library and ask the helpful librarians to assist you in researching financial fraud related to the global economic collapse.

Here's a good blog post which might help get you started: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/07/the-many-ways-banks-commit-criminal-fraud.html

Many of these crimes were committed globally. Spain had to contend with a housing crisis even more extreme than ours due to bank fraud. The banks created such an enormous bubble that millions of young people were protesting in the streets against the outrageous inflation in housing. After the crash, bankers looted the public treasure (just like in the USA) and left the citizens holding the bag. Unfortunately, Spain can't print its way out of the crisis like we did since they don't control the currency their debts are written in.

And here's the single most cited economist in the world weighing in with his informed opinion:

Economist Joseph Stiglitz: Put Corporate Criminals in Jail

An institutionalized system of skewed incentives allowed Wall Street bankers and other corporate executives to gamble with America's wealth and then get away largely scot-free after the house of cards came tumbling down, plunging the U.S. into the worst economic crisis in decades and destroying trillions of dollars of wealth worldwide.

That's the analysis of Joseph Stiglitz, an internationally renowned economist and winner of the 2001 Nobel Prize in economics. (His latest book, Freefall: America, Free Markets, and the Sinking of the World Economy, is just out in paperback.)

During a wide-ranging interview with DailyFinance at AOL headquarters in New York City this week, Stiglitz, who served as chief economist of the World Bank from 1997-2000 and is currently University Professor at Columbia University, explained how the availability of cheap money (thanks in large measure to former Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan), combined with outright mortgage fraud and deceptive and predatory lending practices put millions of people into homes they couldn't afford and caused real estate prices to skyrocket. That created a bubble that would inevitably pop. (See video below, or read the full interview transcript.)

"Festering For Years"

"We have to understand that the problems have been festering for years, not just the last three years," said Stiglitz. "In the years prior to the breaking of the bubble, the financial industry was engaged in predatory lending practices, deceptive practices. They were optimizing not on producing mortgages that were good for the American families but in maximizing fees."

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/10/22/joseph-stiglitz-corporate-crooks-to-jail/

[treestar]

30. What do you mean?

Why do you use a K in Americans?

The headline and quoted part of the article seem to say that being a "bankster" is all it should take. Does Spain allow these people to defend themselves if accused of crimes? Probably so.

And there have been prosecutions, as I recall from discussing this before.

[Scootaloo]

80. "Bankster" is a portmanteau of "banker" and "gangster"

The very term itself refers to criminal activity, specifically fraud, embezzlement, and other "white collar" crimes while within the banking industry.

So yes, being a "bankster" is all that it should take. A crime has been comitted, and guess who's topping hte list of suspects?

[lark]

20. Obviously a rhetorical question, but here's the answer anyway

NO, Duh. Bank clerks should not go to jail! The decision makers, The VP's and up, the ones who instigated the credit default swaps, the ones who approved robo-signing and who approved obviously lowered the standards for reviewing loan documents, the ones with million $ salaries and bonuses are the ones who need to go to jail.

[treestar]

31. If there is indeed a statute they violated

and a prosecutor with proof, no?

[girl gone mad]

29. Maybe you can take up a collection..

for their defense.

Poor widdle banker fraudsters.

[treestar]

34. That was uncalled for

Do you think people accused of crimes are not entitled to a defense if they are people you just don't like?

Are you presuming people guilty of crimes?

[girl gone mad]

37. I think it's absolutely pathetic that we are 5+ years into this crisis..

and people like you still run around like you've had your head buried up your rear the whole time, while there have been countless books, articles, blogs, reports and documentaries detailing the massive amounts of criminal activity which the bankers were engaged in.

[treestar]

52. Books articles blogs and reports are useless

Evidence is what is required. Do you think people should be prosecuted over opinion? Or should there be a charge, evidence of the charge, and a chance to defend? I am all for it if there is evidence. Not just seething with hatred at some class with a name like "banksters." Is every banker supposed to be evil?

[girl gone mad]

63. The evidence has been explicitly detailed in those books, documentaries, on web sites, in journals..

You are seriously uninformed and you are dumbing down this discussion.

[Po_d Mainiac]

77. It's out for everyone to see

But DOJ ain't interested in even looking.

The cuff link king of the JPMorgue coud easily be tried under Sor-Box/SOx

[Ichingcarpenter]

41. I think that your arguments for the Banksters

are revealing on what you want for justice.

[truedelphi]

49. + 1. n/t

[treestar]

53. What arguments for them?

This is all generality. Are you saying people should go to jail just for being in a particular job category? Who is it that should be charged that has not been?

[truedelphi]

48. Oh, spare us.

Of course they are entitled to a defense. But what galls so many of us is that there aren't even any prosecutions.

Sixty Minutes had a most excellent episode about a year ago - it laid it all out -how there were indeed whistle blowers able to testify and put some of these major criminals way for years. But Holder has seen to it that fewer, let me repeat that, [font color=red]FEWER [/font color=red]Wall Street Big Shots have been indicted than at any other point in the past twenty years.

If that fact doesn't get your panties in a knot, I don't know what would. The man who stole our ATM card last weekend (physically stole it) could get life in prison, for the three strikes law on the books here in Calif., and his crime involved taking $ 43 - but those Big Shots who stole the economy out from under us are walking around, free people, setting up the economy to collapse yet again.

[treestar]

54. there have been such prosecutions

How come you cannot point to a particular person even, who should have been charged with particular crime? You need to be spared from the idea that people cannot be prosecuted without specific evidence?

[truedelphi]

58. Like I said, but perhaps your

Not actually reading the posts people put up, just their headers, Over the last year, "Sixty Minutes" spent a whole segment of its hour laying out the case against some of the criminals who headed various mortgage firms. The thing is, the whistle blowers in the firms involved had impeccable evidence agaisnt the Top Honchos at the frims. But SEC and or Justice kept saying, Oh but we don't know where we would get evidence against these people, as a reply.

That is the technique that is known as the [font color=red]big lie. [/font color=red] You have people who are elbowing the officials at SEC and at DOJ, saying here is a signed statement that would be direct evidence of the criminal behavior, direct and totally able to provide ability to convict, because the evidence is the necessary documents are signed by the culpable individual(s).

So if you want, it is probably on line and you can watch it. "Sixty Minutes" carefully laid out the situation - and it shows that there was no WILL or INTENT at either the SEC or DOJ to do anything about the financial criminal behavior.

[Tarheel_Dem]

7. I'm sorry, but can Obama actually "put banksters in jail"?

[n2doc]

8. He's too busy competing with Rmoney asking them for donations to do so n/t

[Ichingcarpenter]

11. The Rico Act is being used

to attack pot places.

He knows what greases the wheel on the train he is running on.

Still better than what could replace him.

Holder and Axelrod fought to clean out the justice department.
Alexrod wanted it and Holder almost quit on the argument.

I said that it would take Kerry 4 years to do it years ago and now
we know its even worse.

[polmaven]

18. No, of course he can't...

You are completely correct. President Obama is not the local sheriff. The crimes of the banksters may or may not be Federal crimes, but the president cannot "put the banksters in jail".

[hughee99]

19. How about drone strikes, then?

They all look like suspected militants to me.

[polmaven]

21. Very poor analogy.

He is Commander in Chief of the US military. The drone strikes are military maneuvers......Please tell me you forgot your tag on your post.

[hughee99]

39. They are economic terrorists.

[Lionessa]

24. But he can instruct his DoJ to file charges, so sort of, yes he can.

He may not be able to assure a conviction, but he surely can get the legal process started.

[Marr]

28. Right, he has absolutely nothing to do with the Department of Justice...

[dionysus]

82. you want a dictator. one who agrees with you, of course.

or, you don't know jack shit about how the law works.

[Marr]

84. Your assertion is that the President has nothing to do with the Department of Justice?

Continue, please-- you were saying something about not knowing jack shit about how the system works.

[aggiesal]

23. Of course he can, he's in charge of the DOJ ...

After the S&L scandal of the 80's
Reagan threw over 200 S&L'ers in jail.
Why can't Obama do the same?

[treestar]

35. Reagan threw them in jail and you were OK with that?

Were they not charged with crimes, that had to be proven in court?

Why would this be exactly the same?

[aggiesal]

38. Of course ...

because Reagan made it a point for his DOJ
to go after them. Charged them with a crime, tried them,
convicted them, sentenced them and then carried out those sentences.

So yes, Reagan threw them in jail. Obama can do the same.
All he has to do is instruct his DOJ to investigate, and the same will happen.

Don't make it sound like Obama or Reagan just kidnapped them off
the street and threw them in jail.

[treestar]

46. Defense of Reagan is interesting

And the Obama DOJ has been investigating various cases - people have quoted them here. And these cases are huge and take time.

[aggiesal]

50. Believe me, I'm no fan of Reagan, ...

but this is one thing he did right.

[Art_from_Ark]

79. If you believe that, I've got a bridge in Al Azziyah, Libya to sell you

Last edited Fri Jul 6, 2012, 02:43 AM - Edit history (1)

Reagan actually made the S&L crisis WORSE, including trying to cover up the original mess. And there's no way his Attorney General, Edwin Meese, would have vigorously pursued the key players in the crisis, including the son of Reagan's vice president.

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=6233

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3330.htm

[Tarheel_Dem]

60. And what are the charges? Being greedy assholes? It may be immoral, but is it a crime?

[aggiesal]

61. That's why I said . . .

have the DOJ investigate. No doubt they'll find something.

From an earlier post (not mine):
The two-year investigation by the bi-partisan Senate Committee here in the US was completed about one year ago.
Chairman of that Committee, Sen. Levin, stated that there was evidence of criminal activity and the Committee
referred their findings to the DOJ.

[Tarheel_Dem]

64. Nice quote, but is that where it ends? Do you know for sure that there are no investigations?

I quicky scanned the DOJ website, and it appears there are some investigations and indeed some prosecutions have taken place, and some have actually gone to prison.

USDOJ: "US Attorney's Office - Eastern District of Michigan
... In addition to stepping up criminal prosecutions, the United States Attorney's ...
of mortgage banking at Citizens First Savings Bank (Citizens), he ..."

There appear to be others:

"The office has continued to litigate a large number of mortgage fraud cases initiated both prior to Operation Stolen Dreams and after. Since the end of Operation Stolen Dreams on June 18, 2010, 30 individuals have either pleaded guilty or were found guilty of federal offenses and 27 have been sentenced to prison terms. Prison sentences imposed so far on defendants have been as high as 108 months in prison. Civil forfeitures totaling more than $1.5 million were imposed. In addition, 22 new indictments or informations charging 22 new defendants with mortgage fraud offenses have been filed. Cases charged in the last 12 months involve many millions of dollars of alleged loss."

http://searchjustice.usdoj.gov/search?q=bank+prosecutions&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=iso-8859-1&oe=UTF-8&client=default_frontend&proxystylesheet=default_frontend&site=default_collection

[aggiesal]

66. Thanks for the links ...

I think the public as a whole will not be happy until they see a recognizable
name or bank that gets convicted.

In this case (and there may be others), it appears that Citizens First Savings Bank
is rather a small bank.

Watch what happens when you start seeing Banks like the Chase(s), BofA's, CitiBank, . . .
and Investment Banks like Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, . . . getting investigated.

I think that's when the public will feel that something is actually being done.

[Tarheel_Dem]

67. Oh, so it's the size now. I see. Doesn't matter that folks have actually "gone to prison".....

'cause they're not the right folks? Is that your argument now? They were mortgage fraudsters, but they weren't big enough? Alert the media. The o.p. claims that Spain is doing something that our DOJ hasn't. We now know that's not true. He didn't mention the size of the bank as a qualifier. So, if you now want to move those goalposts, and not issue a retraction, that's up to you. But please, one set of talking points at a time.

[aggiesal]

69. No, that's not my argument , ...

it's the countries argument.

People will not start feeling like anything is being done until
that big fish is caught.

I don't have a problem with the small fish getting caught, the more the merrier.
Catch them all!

But all the polls will continue to show that the American public thinks that nothing
is getting done to bring the "Banksters" to justice until that big fish is caught.

Really, I'm not moving the goalposts, we just want the goalpost in the
game where #1 is playing #2, instead of #299 .vs. #300.

Chances are that more people will pay attention to the #1 .vs. #2 game. That's
why it's usually on TV.

[Tarheel_Dem]

71. Can you tell me where this issue is "polling"? And where does it fall in terms of importance to....

the "country's" people? I'm really interested. Is this a pressing issue for the "country"? Or is this just another 99% talking point? A little data for backup would be nice.

[aggiesal]

72. Talk to the hand!!! n/t

[Tarheel_Dem]

74. So when challenged on your regurgitated talking points, your response is.....

"Talk to the hand"? I certainly hope you're not a spokesperson for your cause, whatever that may be. I'm sorry you chose to disengage, but for future reference, when you make broad sweeping claims that you've heard in passing? Someone may actually ask you for proof. And if your standard comeback, when challenged, is "Talk to the Hand"? Then I would refrain from making baseless claims, but that's just me.

"Talk to the hand" is not proof. You jumped in and responded to my initial reply, and now that I've challenged you, you don't want to talk to me anymore? Is that it? Why is it so hard for people to just admit that they make stuff up and move on?

I merely asked you to provide the polling data which proves that having "banksters" of only the "big banks" go to prison, is of critical national import to the "countries people". If you didn't have it, you coulda just said so. It's been really real, and eye opening.

[girl gone mad]

65. Here is a partial list:

• Committing massive and pervasive fraud both when they initiated mortgage loans and when they foreclosed on them (and see this)
  
  
• Pledging the same mortgage multiple times to different buyers. See this, this, this, this and this.
  
  
• Cheating homeowners by gaming laws meant to protect people from unfair foreclosure
  
  
• Charging veterans unlawful mortgage fees
  
  
• Engaging in mafia-style big-rigging fraud against local governments. See this, this and this
  
  
• Cooking their books (and see this)
  
  
• Bribing and bullying ratings agencies to inflate ratings on their risky investments
  
  
• Pushing investments which they knew were terrible, and then betting against the same investments to make money for themselves. See this, this, this, this and this
  
  
• Engaging in unlawful “frontrunning” to manipulate markets. See this, this, this, this, this and this
  
  
• Laundering money for drug cartels. See this, this and this (indeed, drug dealers kept the banking system afloat during the depths of the 2008 financial crisis)
  
  Much more here: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/07/the-many-ways-banks-commit-criminal-fraud.html
  
  Now you can't pretend that you don't know what crimes have been committed unless you want to admit you are being intentionally deceptive.

[aggiesal]

73. Thank you. n/t

[Mojorabbit]

78. +10000 nt

[treestar]

36. No, and with the usual laziness

And not even quoting what Spain's laws are and the usual laziness of not telling us what laws of ours any particular person could be charged with. I recall going through this issue before and by the time they had quoted any laws, other DUers found that there have been prosecutions under those laws. So Obama is not even guilty of not prosecuting "the banksters." (Damn spellcheck keeps correcting "bankster" and doesn't think it is a word).

[DemocratsForProgress]

43. That's because it isn't a word.

It's an idiotic non-word.

[Ichingcarpenter]

44. Don't call me lazy.... OK you can if I can call you

a tool for the system. Yes that's unfair.

Listen... I've read enough stuff, predicated the fall long before 2007.

Its not an Obama thing its world wide corruption and malfeasance.

Its Treason on the rape of the middle class.

Yeah..... Obama.... rah, rah, rah.... Romney sucks, I know that but the truth of gravity of situation is what many at DU discovered of the economic Higgs Bosum on what the Mass is of our economic reality .

There was and is something very wrong


I'm not a cheerleader for your side.

[treestar]

47. Rape, treason, etc

But no specific statutes and specific people that have not been charged, for which there is evidence.

So to require that is to be a tool for the system. What system? You are saying "the system" is bad of itself?

[sabrina 1]

76. Did you read the Bi-Partisan Senate Committee's two year report on

what led to the Financial Meltdown? Sen. Levin was chairman of that committee and has stated that there 'is evidence of criminal activity' and because of what they found, that report has been referred to the DOJ.

Have you read why Iceland arrested ITS crooked Bankers?

The Senate's Report is available online. It is long and detailed and anyone who has read it, which I have, has no doubt, that even though they found enough evidence of possible criminal activity to warrant a full, criminal investigation.

There is no need to ask people here what the charges might be. All you have to do is a little research, especially the evidence coming out of the Civil Suits some of which have revealed criminal activities by the Banks which are now being looked at by US Attorneys for possible prosecution.

This is the reason why the banks tried to make a deal that would exempt them from prosecution.

Thanks to OWS and NY's US Attorney Schneiderman they did not succeed in prevention charges or civil suits from being filed.

[girl gone mad]

81. Research is hard.

It's much easier just to sit back and spout empty 'attack the messenger' ad hominem.

[sabrina 1]

83. I guess it depends on your priorities.

When you care about the bigger picture, the people, the future, the world in general, fair play etc. I guess the research becomes easier. But if all you care about is 'winning' then that's all you will be aiming for, and everything else, no matter how true, just gets in the way.

The sad thing is that an informed population is an asset to a good politician. I wonder why that never occurs to those who think that 'winning' is everything?

[FSogol]

51. Spain is going to show its long form birth certificate?

[Teamster Jeff]

59. Sen. Dick Durban said

Banks "Frankly, they own the place". Speaking of the US Senate

[progressivebydesign]

68. So do you think that Romney is going to put them in jail? Just curious... n/t

[Overseas]

75. K&R. Glad to hear it.