So please tell us again Jill Stein, Susan Saradon, and those who refused to vote for Hillary in the

[still_one]

GE, just how Hillary was worse than trump?

One thing Hillary wouldn't be doing, and that is scape-goating Muslims because of a terrorist incident, or pulling out of the Paris Accord.

Instead we have a fear mongering, mentally unstable so-called occupant in the WH, and we have to get through the next two years before we have a chance to meaningfully stop his insanity

[radical noodle]

1. Don't forget that we already have

a right wing religious conservative as a Supreme Court Justice that we would not have had if Hillary was president.

[still_one]

11. SC court was a huge issue radical, and I am sorry that didn't get the coverage it deserved

[radical noodle]

48. Some on the left knew but didn't care

They were too pure. I hope they enjoy the next 40 years with Gorsuch.

[still_one]

56. yeah, they didn't care

[Cha]

18. Our Lives would be so different

now and so would our country and Planet.. we'd have a chance to build for a better future.

It wouldn't be easy but we wouldn't have Fascist Monsters in charge.. having to beat back the monsters every second of every day.

Mahalo, rad!

[radical noodle]

47. Mahalo Cha!

[hrmjustin]

2. They think they are principled but they are fools and tools of the right wing.

[TomSlick]

3. Maybe,

but I'm still wondering what Jill Stein was doing at that dinner with Putin and Michael Flynn. Might it be that Stein - knowingly or not - was part of Putin's plot to tip the election to Trump?

[hrmjustin]

6. Oh I would not be surprised if she was doing it on Putin's orders.

[sheshe2]

12. Yup!

[reggaehead]

44. She likely was an

Unwitting twit. As was Bernie. Actually Bernie may have been a witting twit. Before any of Podesta's memos came out. Hillary had him beat to a pulp. Funny they don't have any memo's b4 the primary was decided. I do not accept the results of the General at all

[Jakes Progress]

60. There was a song

from Yellow Submarine where your name came from.

The Fool on the Hill. I wonder if the fool on the hill also had to go around trying to justify his name.

[Jakes Progress]

61. Fools it is.

They remind me of trump himself. Self sure that they are so brilliant that they know more than everyone else. It is a truism that those who are the most foolish are incapable of knowing what they don't know. So they go off - cock sure that they are the ones with the lock on truth, totally unaware that they have been suckers for the propaganda from the right wing and now even from some russian social media crap that would only be believed by those with seriously limited resources in the thinking department.

[JI7]

4. jill stein is a putin troll

Sarandon is a bitter hypocrite that supported john edwards.

[brush]

77. Don't forget Rosario Dawson, that other actress twit.

[melman]

5. Susan Sarandon is an actress with no real power or influence

But by all means keep on harping on that forever because that is really productive.

[Cha]

10. And, you keep jumping on these threads trying to

shut down discussion.

Ain't gonna happen.

[sheshe2]

13. Hmmm...

They just hopped on mine as well about Hillary.

Hmmm~

[Jamaal510]

29. Ironically in these attempts

to derail the discussion, they're kicking the thread for more exposure.

[Cha]

36. Precisely, Jamaal!

[still_one]

23. It is bullshit to say she had "no real power or influence. She was part of the campaign against

Hillary, making numerous campaign stops on behalf of that campaign, speaking to large numbers of supporters of that campaign, telling them, I may not vote for the Democratic nominee if it isn't my candidate, because there really isn't a difference between trump and Hillary.

That she also had celebrity status, afforded her even more attention. She got quite a lot of visibility on multiple programs, mostly MSNBC, stating those opinions.

That she was part of the opposing campaign, and after the nomination was determined, publicly came out against the Democratic nominee, to say she had "no real power or influence" is a false narrative, and ignores her role in the campaign.

[mhw]

30. Thank you still one.

Sarandon was vocal against the democrats, their Party, and their candidate.

Her role was to undermine the better future of America with discrediting lies & division.

She spoke loudly against everything the word "progressive" stands for.
Our truest Progressive, Sen Paul Wellstone would have never aligned with the likes of Sarandon.

She would have been called out for her lack of honesty early on.
He would never have included nor embraced her words nor her assinine behavior. Not in his Party.

RIP Senator.

[regnaD kciN]

7. Sigh...aren't fifteen threads on this topic enough for one week?

[sandensea]

9. Hear, hear.

Relitigating the last primary, or the intra-party divisions common in all politics, is getting us nowhere.

[sheshe2]

15. Well....

She was just on late night shows chatting all this up...when pressed. Therefore her comments are current issues.

[sandensea]

31. Good point.

The above certainly goes for Ms. Sarandon too.

[philly_bob]

17. To blame one party faction (the progressive left) for Trump's win is stupid.

The other party faction (the pro-Hillary DNC establishment) has its share of blame.

And finally just quit the blame game altogether. Note that Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren seldom participate in these whose-fault recriminations.

Think new coalitions, new blood for 2018 and 2020, and who to run against the worst GOP in history -- and how to play defense against Trump in the meantime.

[sandensea]

34. True. There's plenty of blame to go around - but nowhere more so than Putin's hackers.

If anyone thinks they limited themselves to DNC servers - and didn't take full advantage of our easily-hacked, read-and-write software powered voting and tabulation machines - well, I've got a bridge in Moscow on the market.

[emulatorloo]

64. Yep. And Putin's hacks.

Link to tweet

/photo/1

[still_one]

35. You are absolutely right, Bernie and Warren do not participate in recriminations. Why does

Sarandon feel the need, to either through her public appearances, or through the social media?

[emulatorloo]

52. Exactly, Bernie and Warren don't do that. Neither do they defend hacks like Stein and Sarandon

I don't know why it is so important to you to defend and protect Stein and Sarandon.

Neither Bernie nor Warren pushed this bullshit that both parties are the same and HRC was worse Trump. Because they know it isn't true.

Yet Sarandon and Stein did that. As I say I have no idea why these two celebrity millionaires demand such deference, defense and protection from you.

[philly_bob]

69. I care nothing -- zero -- about Stein and Sarandon. Really.

What I care about is that those two are used as examples of leftists-cost-us-the-election posts.

Come next election cycle, we should be open to all anti-Trump supporters. And the did-they-support-Clinton? purity test has to be set aside.

[emulatorloo]

72. Trump-enablers by definition are not left/progressive

That's the only purity I have:

Anyone who voted for Trump, said Trump was 'the lesser of two evils', echoed false right wing memes, told folks to sit home is neither 'left' or 'progressive.'

Progressives are not willing to throw the most vulnerable people in our society to the wolves like Trump.

You know the truth of that as well as I do.

So if yr worried the left will get blamed find some actual leftists to champion rather than Trump-enablers.

[philly_bob]

74. Let's stop re-litigating the primary.

I could say that anybody who blocked the more popular Bernie Sanders was a Trump-enabler. And we could go another round. On and on and on.

Let it go. Think ahead, not backward.

Don't encourage and aggravate splits in the growing anti-Trump coalition.

[emulatorloo]

76. IMHO Jeff Weaver's incompetence blocked Bernie

I blame Weaver for losing the primary. Made no effort at broadening Bernies coalition, just threw red meat @ supporters like you and me. Took a man of issues who never ran a negative campaign in his life and made him go negative with personal attacks that he was clearly uncomfortable doing.

"Don't encourage and aggravate splits in the growing anti-Trump coalition."

I bristle a bit at that accusation as it is untrue. But you don't know me so I'm not going to prolong this subthea

As to the rest, fair enough. Look forward, not back

[philly_bob]

80. Interesting point of view. I had forgotten Weaver and never followed him closely.

My memories of the 2016 primary are confused, especially after post-election revelations of Russian and Alt-Right interference.

I hope you enjoyed the exchange, and I'll join you in looking forward, not back.

[emulatorloo]

83. Was very good to talk. Take care and

See you around du.

[Jamaal510]

28. There's a "trash thread"

option if you don't want to see threads like this. The only thing posting on this thread accomplishes is helping to kick it for even more exposure.

[That Guy 888]

37. Not until one of the threads breaks 100 recs and several hundred posters say they were right.

That's my guess anyways.

[emulatorloo]

57. Trash thread is good solution

[Cha]

8. They're such Elitist

R** F*******. Whoopee, more are going to town meetings as millions of people are in danger of losing their Health Care and their Lies helped get a Climate Change Denier in the seat of power..

Millions in danger of losing their homes too.. with ben "poverty is a state of mind" carson in charge of HUD.. wanting Billions Slashed from the budget.. as the fat cats stein and ssarandon sit on their cushiony Millions of BUCKS While trump FUCKS OUR PLANET.

[pnwmom]

14. Susan idiotically thought a worse President was better,

because then the "revolution" would come sooner.

This was the same line of bull that Ralph Nader pedaled in 2000, and apparently she swallowed it whole.

[aikoaiko]

16. Yes, and let's hear from those who told lefties to eff-off if they were considering not HRC

Instead of continuing to reach out to those them.

Brilliant braggadocios.

[retrowire]

24. I tried and tried to reach out

They rejected the thought. They even banned me outright. At first I regretted the loss of some that I considered friends.

But friends dont do that.

[aikoaiko]

45. I'm sorry for that, but it doesn't sounds like you were telling them to eff off either.

Thanks for your kind reply in the vegan thread.

Truth be told, my eating habit are so bad at this point the idea of me going vegan or even vegetarian is laughable. I no longer feel as if I can change and that makes me sad.

[kimbutgar]

21. Bye bye troll

[Quanta]

20. Jill may have been in on it

That pic of her and Flynn and Putin all sitting at the same table smiling makes me think...

[retrowire]

22. I'LL TELL YOU EXACTLY WHY

The thinking was that Hillary would lead to a continuation of Obama's policies.

YEAH I SAID IT.

Only thing is, of those people, I was smart enough to follow Bernie's word and vote for Hillary because she WAS NOT WORSE THAN TRUMP.

I would apologize for them but... They don't like that.

And while Obama wasn't perfect (who the fuck is? Even Bernie wouldn't have been perfect) it still would've been a world in which we didn't fear for the very FOUNDATIONS of our nation collapsing!

[still_one]

26. Absolutely. Bernie did what was needed. In fact while Bernie was telling his supporters to vote fo

the Democratic nominee, Sarandon and Stein were telling those supporters just the opposite.

Sarandon was part of Bernie's campaign, and made campaign stops on his behalf, you would think someone in that capacity would follow Senator Sanders lead. Instead she went in the opposite direction, and I believe influenced people, not only because she was part of the Sanders campaign, but also because of her celebrity status.

That she still continues to come out with this view publicly, and has no second thoughts or misgivings about those actions, make her rightfully subject to criticism, especially in light of the terrible events in Britain, the exiting of the Paris Accords, and the almost the daily llitaney of outrageous behavior from the WH and republican congress

[retrowire]

27. Yeah I can't understand why she still defends it

What I mentioned was their motives at the time. We felt Bernie was better than Hillary. Personally I still do, but the match up became Hillary vs Trump and hell, even WITHOUT Bernie's guidance I would have known better.

[still_one]

38. Makes no sense to me either unless its pure ego.

[mhw]

39. No Hillary was better than Bernie & any other in the campaign.

No one had her creds & not one of them had walked their talk as she did from her first days of Wellsley.

No one had the policy chops as she did and not one of them had the degree of human rights issues as she did.

She followed the book of honesty in showing her taxes & filing the campaign FEC papers without excuses nor delays. Her foreign affairs expertise was more than any other. Her respect for humanity shows in her years of speaking for policy change.

Her favor was shown by the millions more votes both in the Primary & the GE

She always was the better person for America's President.

[retrowire]

42. Good we've both expressed our opinions of the primaries.

Let's not fight the primaries.

[clu]

66. booed during primary

why was she booed in the second (IIRC) dem primary when answering NO if she supported raising the taxable SS income cap fund medicare/SS?

[Hamlette]

25. the worse it gets, the more they like it

at least Saradon. She said Trump winning would be so awful there would be a backlash that would bring meaningful change.

[Volaris]

32. Yeah for everyone who isn't killed for loss of health insurance between now and then.

Meaningful change...something tells me resurrection from the dead ain't on that list. I voted for Berne in the primary. Then, like NOT AN IDIOT, I voted for Hillary in the general, because not an Idiot.

If she wants change NOW, she can run for the House Seat in her district and HELP make the change she wants possible, or she can go fuck herself because now she isn't helping do shit.

[Honeycombe8]

33. Spoken like a rich person who doesn't have to worry about health care.

And an older person who doesn't have to worry about global warming.

That argument she uses, if it's true, is a false one. To say...well, I want to see people suffer and die, because that would bring about good things in the world and country. Say what? A little illogical logic.

But what else can she say for her screw-up, except double down? Admit she screwed up? No way.

[NastyRiffraff]

71. But of course the "backlash" wouldn't lash back on HER

She'd be absolutely safe. The plebes are the ones who suffer, and she DOESN'T CARE. I don't understand why the Sarandon supporters can't see that simple, painfully obvious, fact.

[HughBeaumont]

84. "Burn it down, rise like a phoenix" leads to DYStopia, not Utopia.

At their most fearful, people will buy anything.

[Wibly]

40. At some point

At some point the Dems need to acknowledge Clinton was the wrong candidate and they were wrong to suppress an open and fair convention.
It wasn't just about Clinton being worse, or Trump being better, or whatever. It was in no small part about Clinton just being the wrong person at the wrong time.
No insult to Clinton at all.
Being a successful party means listening, not shouting down anyone who disagrees with your pre-conceived notions. The Dems played a big role in their own demise, and they, we, need to see it.
We also need to stop beating up on people who we did not see eye to eye with. Or we'll be in the background for a long time to come.

[still_one]

54. Excuse me. We should stop beating up on people like Sarandon or Stein, just because we "did not see

eye to eye with them"?

I think it is a little more serious than not seeing eye to eye with someone.

Sarandon actively campagined against the Democratic nominee, and so did Jill Stein. They actually worked to get trump elected, so please spare me your concern about poor Sarandon and Stein.

As far as your propaganda about how "they" were wrong to suppress an open and fair convention, that is simply bullshit. The facts are Hillary didn't need the superdelegates to clinch the nomination. She had 3.8 million more votes. superdelegates didn't play a part.

Of course that also ignores the fact that Tad Devine, Bernie's campaign manger, was instrumental in the 80's in the creation of the superdelegate process, and defended their existence. The rules were in place for decades, and all parties concerned knew those rules.

[BainsBane]

62. Being a Democrat means respecting voting rights

and the choices of the millions more who chose the winning candidate over the losing one. It means understanding that the few are not superior to the many, and that the votes of others are not worth less than your own.

[Cha]

81. Pure Bull. Hillary was the Perfect Candidate and our

Convention was Fair and Honorable.

[tiredtoo]

41. Can someone please tell me

What this thread does to promote Democratic Party and their goals?

[calimary]

43. Indeed. All I could ask would be - "happy NOW?"

[NoMoreRepugs]

46. seriously, when does this whining stop and we get our collective asses in gear

and get into the street fight with Repugs that's going to determine our future? The PC of some here and their penchant for having to 'win' every stinkin' petty disagreement as well as the big ones makes it far easier to understand why we lose so much.

[emulatorloo]

53. Got a feeling most DU'ers can walk and chew gum at the same time.

[Cary]

70. Yes, because that old bromide worked so well

It's so horrible to support Democrats! It's way too much to ask.

[emulatorloo]

73. We're on the same page

My bromide was a way of saying We can Street fight Republicans while pushing back against Republican-enabling fauxgressives like Stein.

[blue-wave]

49. OK, let's forget about

Stein and Sarandon. They are at this time a distraction , useless to us and should be shunned. Let's start electing democrats. Let's start hurting the repukes, like in the up and coming special election in Georgia!!!! Donate...time, money or whatever. Do what you can. Heck make phone calls. We have to start winning and never slow down.

[TomCADem]

50. The Mistake Is Assuming Neoprogressives like Stein and Sarandon...

...represent the left. They focus most of their energies on attacking the Democrats and members of the left while generally giving Trump and the right a free pass. Indeed, they often share the same talking points as the right.

[still_one]

55. You are right Tom, and perhaps that is the most important lesson from this

[emulatorloo]

58. Well said.

[philly_bob]

75. Where is the Trash Thread command? /nt

[videohead5]

51. They Really Believe

The DNC cost Bernie the nomination.I don't know how,they did not have any money?...Bernie had more money and spent more than Hillary.I really don't know how he could have made up almost 4 million votes.

[n2doc]

63. .

[emulatorloo]

65. ..

Y'all may wanna sweep this all under the rug, but history isn't gonna be kind to Stein.

I have no clue why anybody on DU would have such a desperate need to defend/protect a Trump enabler like Stein as some do up thread.

====================================================

[clu]

67. nice pic

as damning as that pic looks, it would be nice to know where it was taken. it's no secret that putin wanted Hillary to lose, so I don't have any allusions to his possible motivation for being there. Bernie threw his hat into Hillary's ring. I am ignorant about Sarandon and others campaigning for stein so this is new to me. chalk that up to political idealism but Bernie would have won three critical states. after reading a thread about voter intimidation or fraud i'm still not convinced.

I don't think Sarandon would have been taken seriously in the three critical states. People weren't motivated to vote for Hillary. You can attribute this to pizzagate or fake news or whatever you want but you're ignoring the momentum that Sanders had. Seeing footage from the Las Vegas dem primary with footage of Barbara Boxer on a big-screen no less - exhorting to people "Bernie - play nice! No mean attacks!" is ridiculous.

IMO, this is around the time that Bernie's wive's involvement of the failed school in Vermont hit the news. That could have been averted and the school was on it's way out anyways. What else hurt Bernie? Questions about energy. He could have waxed about a large scale solar project or nuclear in some areas but he failed to continue leading and lost steam in CA.

[emulatorloo]

68. Was taken at an anniversary celebration of Russia Today (RT)

Putin's propaganda organ, used so effectively to push targeted Hillary-hate.

Was in December 2015.

Article where I got photo:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/guess-who-came-dinner-flynn-putin-n742696

Both Flynn and Stein received financial compensation for the trip.

I am a Bernie primary supporter. I know all about his momentum. He said he lost the primary fair and square. (He did, and I blame Jeff Weavers poor management). He endorsed HRC and campaigned on her.

Putin targeted the more conspiracy-minded of Bernie's supporters, who didn't believe what Bernie said.

Stein actively smeared HRC time and again, suggesting she was worse than Trump.

I beleive that Stein coordinated her message. It may not have conscious on her part.

I wish I had the figures at hand but Stein was a spoiler in those three states. Margins between Trump and HRC were razor thin. If some of the Stein and Johnson voters had voted for Clinton, HRC would be President instead of Trump.

[anamnua]

78. Moss Evans

Last edited Mon Jun 5, 2017, 11:47 AM - Edit history (1)

There was famous quote about the British trade union guru, Moss Evans, in 1979 when the British Labour party was swept from office ushering in more then a decade of Tory Rule under the right wing Friedmanite Margaret Thatcher. This followed on a Winter of industrial unrest ushered in by the said Evans despite sane folk warning him of the electoral consequences. The warnings were more than validated when the Tories swept into power.
The quote:

''The political education of Moss Evans has been very expensive indeed.''

Similarly, the political education of Stein, Sarandon and co has been very expensive indeed.

The good news is that Trump is unlikely to last anywhere near as long as Thatcher.

[still_one]

79. Interesting historical perspective anamnual While you are correct that trump shouldn't last as long

as Thatcher, a lot of damage can still be done.

[anamnua]

82. Very true

And those who argued that a Trump presidency and a Hillary presidency would be essentially the same are now finding out the truth -- the hard way.