I confess I don't know what other countries do re air traffic control. Anyone?

[nolabear]

Boy, he's the happiest guy about monopolies I've ever seen.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Some other countries also have privatized their ATC facilities.

It has not always worked perfectly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cberlingen_mid-air_collision

[onenote]

6. ATC in the US has sometimes been blamed for collisions as well.

Privatization of ATC is not in and of itself a bad idea. Our ATC lags behind the privatized systems in a number of countries. What is important is whether it is subject to effective oversight and adequate protections for the workers.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

10. That's correct. I was actually involved in a midair caused by ATC error

(not in the midair itself but as a lawyer for one of the parties involved) - the local controller had lost sight of an incoming aircraft and forgot to track it on their new D-BRITE radar; it was simple human error. What I worry about is whether privatization would place profits over safety, as seems to have happened in the Skyguide situation. If they understaff facilities and/or kill the unions, which wouldn't surprise me, safety could be compromised. Our ATC system needs updated equipment (and we don't have it because for years the GOP hasn't adequately funded the FAA) but the training, skills and overall system is probably the best in the world.

The other concern is whether charging pilots or airlines for ATC services would increase the cost of air travel - and it would probably crush general aviation, or result in more accidents because GA pilots would avoid filing flight plans or using flight following.

[Major Nikon]

16. Everywhere I've flown into privatized ATC airspace the system sucked

I flew into Canada and after only staying there for 3 days I was charged about $100 for what would be free in the US. All of that was VFR, and I'm sure it would have been more had I flown IFR. I flew into a few airports that were listed as uncontrolled, but had a quasi controller working the radio. It was confusing and some pilots simply ignored their "instructions" and did what they want. At controlled airports ATC was completely incompetent and one controller would issue clearances that directly contradicted the previous controller. It was a complete clusterfuck and the only reason it doesn't cause more problems is because they don't move much traffic. This is the system congress wants to model the US on.

[Major Nikon]

15. Don't fall for the talking points

Per operation the US ATC system is the most efficient and safest in the world. The US doesn't lag behind anyone. Nobody moves aircraft more efficiently.

Privatization of inherently governmental services is always a bad idea. It simply insures more overhead and less accountability.

[Hortensis]

32. YES! "The U.S. air traffic control system, the worlds largest

and most complex, is in the midst of an era of unsurpassed safety. There has not been a fatal crash of a domestic passenger airliner in the U.S. in eight years."

From a Washington Post article on pros and cons of privatization: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress/the-pros-and-cons-of-privatizing-air-traffic-control/2017/06/05/747debfc-4a10-11e7-987c-42ab5745db2e_story.html?utm_term=.5ad00dfb0625

But Rump pointed to Canada specifically, and I point to the reality that, much as I truly respect it and our Canadian snowbird friends in Florida, due to its northern position Canada's populations mostly cluster close to the U.S. border and their actual "air traffic control system" is, along with most else, at least somewhat dependent on ours, and the data our taxpayer dollars collect.

I wonder: Do rump and his manipuators by any chance intend to pay us ordinary American taxpayers for the extremely high-tech real-time data our air traffic controller system must have?

[Wounded Bear]

2. Well, Ali Velsher was just on talking about Canada...

Apparently, they have a privatized system, or at least partially privatized. He had some good things to say about the idea, but also some caveats.

Good things: faster upgrades to tech, etc.

Bad things: higher fares, and less protection in recessions.

Not comprehensive, but worth a look if you can find the clip.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

7. Canada's privatization of airports and air traffic control has been a disaster

It has just created unaccountable debt-laden "non-profit" behemoths who charge some of the highest fees in the world and have to just to cover the interest on their debt.

If you added up all the debt generated by Canada's privatized aviation entities and called it Privatizationstan it would probably rank prominently among indebted third world countries.

Aviation in Canada from about 1990 onwards is a cautionary tale, not an example.

[Wounded Bear]

9. You seem to know more about it than I do...

thanks for posting. Have any hard links?

I generally have a gut reaction to fight against privatization. It's basically my default position, though I don't mind listening to rational arguments for and against. As others in the thread have said, it probably depends on oversight. I certainly don't trust any Repub admin to provide a decent level of that.

We certainly need some upgrades to our system, it remains to be seen if Trump's proposal provides that, or whether is it just another means to profitization.

[erinlough]

28. Also, the only people who will be paying are the users.

Right now part of all of our taxes go into ATC. If this goes down only the flying public will pay through their tickets. And the price should be sizable. Remember always that when privatization is mentioned the service has to make a profit, and they want to make a big one.

[SHRED]

3. Privatization equals less accountability

That rule is true for our entire public sector ("government&quot .
Local, regional, city, county, state, and federal.

[onecent]

4. God now I don't want to fly. Going to Manila, Philippines in July

to End of August to see my two sons who are doctors.

I don't want to fly if Dump has ANYTHING TO DO WITH our airline...
This will be my 8th trip....I love going there....but don't trust Dump.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

11. Whatever happens won't happen soon.

You have plenty of time for your trip. If this plan is approved (and there will be enormous opposition from airlines and organizations like AOPA) it will take years to implement.

[onecent]

13. Thank you Velveteen, that makes me feel alot better!!!!

[nolabear]

30. It'll be years. But I get less enthused all the time.

[hack89]

5. Canada, the United Kingdom, Germany, and France have privatized their ATC

and have modern and effective systems.

[billh58]

26. To put this in perspective

the following are annual air traffic passenger counts for 2015:

Canada: 80,228,302

Germany: 115,540,186

France: 65,039,503

UK: 131,449,680

Total: 392,257,671

===============================

USA: 798,230,000

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IS.AIR.PSGR

The United States runs almost twice the amount of air traffic and passengers as the other major countries combined, and privatizing the ATC system will take several years before all of the kinks are worked out, and this is only for the big air carriers. General Aviation, a large segment of the flying public is still a question, and so far AOPA (their lobbying group) is against privatization.

While privatization works (after a fashion) in smaller systems, it is totally unworkable in a large system like ours. It is just another Republican profit-making scheme for large air carriers with no consideration for the general populace, or the flying public.

30-year Air Traffic Controller here, and I still teach ATC to FAA new hires. Although NATCA, the air traffic controller's union top management has endorsed privatization, most rank-and-file controllers are against it. When it comes to a vote, I suspect that it will fail.

[Thomas Hurt]

8. Privatization just increases the liklihood for more graft, greed and corruption.

FF45 must have a crony or two looking for a sweet gov't contract.

[KT2000]

12. my requirement for all privatization

is that the contracts call for a lid on CEO pay and wages for workers the same as government paid.
This is really a way of reducing wages for workers, removing benefits and especially retirement programs.
Defense contractors would be for in line for this.

[Major Nikon]

14. Privatized Swiss air traffic controller was controlling 3 aircraft and ran two of them together

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cberlingen_mid-air_collision

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

17. And the accident investigation pointed out how Skyguide, the ATC company,

had skimped on personnel; allowed controllers to go on break while leaving only one to work several positions; and had taken radar and phone systems offline for repairs without telling the controller about it (he was later murdered by a Russian man whose family had been killed in the accident, although the midair wasn't really the fault of the individual controller but his employer's poor management).

A secondary cause was the Russian pilots' failure to follow their TCAS directions, but they wouldn't have been in that position in the first place if Skyguide had been properly managed.

[onenote]

18. My wife and I once met an Air Traffic controller while on a scuba trip

He drank harder than almost anyone I've ever met (Jack Daniels at any time of the day or night). It scared the living crap out of us to think he was an air traffic controller, although in practice he may have been absolutely great at his job).

The point is that no system is perfect.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

19. They do random drug and alcohol tests on ATC personnel,

just as with pilots. The guy probably drank like a fish while he was off duty but gave himself the required 8 hours or more before showing up for work. He'd be taken off duty if he tested at .02 or more, and be subjected to formal proceedings if .04 or more - meaning he'd ultimately be given the option of rehab or resigning. I don't worry much about drunk air traffic controllers. I do worry about overworked or fatigued ones.

[onenote]

21. Even when sober this guy was pretty odd

but maybe what seemed odd to us is what made him an effective air traffic controller!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

23. Yeah, they are a strange bunch. They thrive on stress.

[Major Nikon]

25. There's no shortage of pilots that are also pretty odd

Many are very hard drinkers as well, but only a tiny percentage are showing up for work under the influence given the number of reported incidents. I'd venture to guess the actually numbers are far below the average for the general population. Very few people are subject to random alcohol tests in their job.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

29. I worked for an airline for awhile - not as a line pilot,

but in a safety-related job. And we were also subjected to random drug and alcohol testing. It does make you think about how hard you're going to party if you have to work the next day.

[Major Nikon]

22. I know of exactly zero accidents in the US attributed to controllers who were under the influence

That's not to say there haven't been any, but none come to mind and I've been reading most NTSB reports for civil aviation in the last 30 years.

[onenote]

24. I didn't mean to suggest that there were

As I pointed out, he may have been a perfect ATC when on the job. It just surprised us, after watching him for a week, to find out what his job was!

[Major Nikon]

20. They also don't move nearly as much air traffic in Europe

So imagine turning over governmental ATC to such an inept model with far higher traffic.

Europe has also killed general aviation with costs that are restrictive to all but the very rich and the system absolutely sucks. Each airport is it's own fiefdom with it's own set of rules and procedures and everywhere you go everyone has their hand out.

Now compare this to the US where our system virtually pays for itself with very little coming out of the general fund and a huge return in taxes on a trillion dollar industry (in civil aviation alone) that employs over 10 million people. Nobody moves more traffic safer and more efficiently than in the US. Only a Dunning-Kruger moran that looks like a cheeto would think it's a good idea to fuck with such a great system.

[billh58]

27. Spot on.

President numb-nuts and Jimmy Inhofe are trying to impose a for-profit solution to fix a non-existent problem.

[nolabear]

31. Really interesting insights. Thanks for the responses. I still don't understand whether

they're talking about creating one big monopoly or piecemeal privatization of different areas, air fields, whatever. Will they bid on jobs? Is striking back on the table?

And is switching from radar to GPS actually going to help stop delays? I have NO idea what he thinks would be accomplished.