$250,000/year "middle class" does not need a tax cut.

[Bonobo]

You know it, I know it and Obama should know it.

Do you really want to put a person that makes a quarter of a million/year in the same category as a family of 4 earning $30,000 or $40,000/year?

You say it's a "compromise"?? I say hell yes, it IS a compromise.

It is compromising, as has become par for the course, your values, your integrity and your intellectual honesty if you want to pretend that a person making 200,000 or 250,000/year is "middle class" and needs a tax break.

It is overlooking the real victims of this economy and weakening the case for the need for real help for people in trouble.

To those of you who assist in this, I say shame on you.

[AJTheMan]

1. It wouldn't bother me one bit if the whole bush tax cuts expired. nt

[Warpy]

5. It would deal a massive blow to the economy

if the lower income people had to pay a tax increase. Even an increase of 50 bucks a year for subsistence earners will have a massive effect since lower income people spend 100% of what they get.

However, what we really need is a return to a progressive tax structure with confiscatory rates on anyone who thinks he's worth over $10 million a year from any source, one time only windfalls being averaged over 5 years but one time only.

The Bush tax cuts have to die. I'm afraid we've gone beyond the point where raising taxes on the top 2% a measly three percent is going to do it. We either need to let them all expire, giving a massive hit to the economy, or return to a progressive structure.

The right wing will be delighted to see the little people pay more taxes. They will fight any increase on plutocrats tooth and nail.

[bluestateguy]

2. Oh here we go

We get these threads every now and then.

[nebenaube]

3. people under $150,000 pay too high now

people under 100,000 pay too high,
people under 50,00 pay way too fucking much....

[Bonobo]

4. Yup, I have not yet internalized Republican values.

Sorry to remind you, but a person making a quarter of a million/year should not be lumped together with people barely making it.

The Democratic Party represented something back in the day --and it wasn't about being Republican Lite.

That's the way I see it and I will not shut up about it no matter how much it irritates you to be reminded of it.

[SunsetDreams]

6. Are you considering the cost of living?

I think perhaps that's where Obama is coming from. The $250,000 might be considered high in some areas of the United States, but in others it fits right in with Middle Class. That is due to Cost of Living.

[Bonobo]

8. I have considered and I still can't find it in my heart or mind

to lump a person earning a $22,000/month with a person earning $22,000/year.

[SunsetDreams]

9. I know it may seem that way to you

but unless you consider Cost of Living in different areas of the United States, your argument doesn't hold.

In some places your argument is just and right, but others not so much.

[Bonobo]

10. I don't think you can show me numbers that justify your position.

There are people that are REALLY struggling. THEY may need a tax break but there is no area in the country where $250,000 per year will not give you an easy life, great health care and college for all your kids AS WELL as savings.

Prove otherwise with some actual numbers (even round numbers). I will start and all these numbers are way conservative.

$22k/month

-rent/mortgage = 2k
-health insurance = 2k
-car payments = 1k
-food costs = 1k
-college costs = 5k (2 kids in a 30k/year college)
-utilities = 1k
-taxes = 7k

That's 19,000/month in expenses -allowing for an incredible 3,000/month or $36,000/year savings with ZERO attempt to save money by scrounging.

In contrast, a family earning $3,200/month and trying to maintain the image of a normal life will be almost unable to do many of the "basic" things listed above. College? Not really? But many of the fixed demands such as 2 cars and food will barely be different no matter WHERE you live.

[SunsetDreams]

13. Here play around with the Cost of Living Calculator

http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-living-calculator.aspx

This was back in 2008, the cost of living has significantly increased.

Obamanomics - Is $250,000 per Year Rich?

Presumptive Democratic nominee Barack Obama wants to raise taxes on Americans making over $250,000 per year. That may seem like a lot of money, but it depends a lot on where you live.

Someone with an income of $250,000 in Paducah, Ky., for instance, would need to make $586,000 in New York City to maintain the same lifesytlye. So, maybe Uncle Sam needs to work in a cost-of-living component to the tax code.

Using a cost of living calculator from Bankrate.com, we compared what $250,000 translates to in various parts of the country. Here's is a sample of what we found:



In contrast, a person making $250,000 in New York would only need $106,000 to live in Paducah. The biggest driver of the cost differences is housing. A comparable home in New York would cost $1.1 million vs. $0.2 million in Paducah. Rent for a comparable apartment, would be $3,425 vs. $550 per month

http://www.cnbc.com/id/26408567

[Skidmore]

16. I wish someone would clarify this "lifestyle" thing.

Does it mean a house in the burbs or in the city proper? Car or cars? Vacations every year? What size home? How much entertainment? What quality furniture? $300k could buy you two really nice houses in our area--McMansions, no, but more than adequate for shelter and comfort. You might actually have to walk from the garage to the house in the weather.

[SunsetDreams]

23. My understanding

is that it is unique to the individual. Say your making 40,000 in one area of the country and you want or need to move to another. Whatever it is your doing with that 40,000 be it just getting by with the necessities or having a little extra, you would need to make that much more money in the area you are moving to, in order to get by. It's basically what you are doing with your money now in one area vs what you would need, to do the same thing in another. I don't know if I'm explaining it right where it's understandable, I know what I'm trying to say lol

[Bonobo]

18. Yeah, I get it. But it doesn't matter.

I said there is no place in the US where 250,000 bucks per year will NOT give you a comfortable life of no worries and with your children's health and college needs taken care while STILL having fun and saving money.

The same cannot be said for 30k for a family of 4.

[SunsetDreams]

22. I think I understand what you are trying to say

250,000 is way more money than both me and my husband make together.

All I'm saying is the cost of living is alot higher in different areas of the U.S.. What might be easy and comfortable living here for a family of 4, might put you barely getting by or not at all in another area. When you factor in children's health, clothes, car, house payment/rent, utilities, gas, doctors visits and god forbid you get really sick and need hospital care. College on top of it. Everything has gone up significantly in the past decade or so.

[NNN0LHI]

19. I don't consider either CNCB or bankrate.com credible sources

[SunsetDreams]

21. A major news network CNBC

I didn't link to faux news. As far as bankrate.com, that's the one CNBC listed. However if you prefer, just go to google and enter "cost of living calculator. There are plenty of them out there.

[HiPointDem]

20. so what? it's still the top 5%.

[Skidmore]

14. Where the heck does this person live that

utilities are $1k/mo and what size is that house/apartment?

[Bonobo]

15. I was being super conservative to show the ridiculousness of the comparison. nt

[onlyadream]

30. You forgot

To take out taxes. If you just take out 28% that leaves 15k per month. And your property taxes is WAY too low. I live in a blue collar area on Long Island in a 1700 sq ft, three bedroom and my taxes are 10k. Put me in a nice area here, and I don't mean a million dollar area, just one with a "good" school district, and I'd be paying 15k at the very least.

Not saying that your point is wrong, but your numbers are.

[Bonobo]

32. I took out 7k/month for taxes on an income of 22k/month. nt

[onlyadream]

33. Oops.

Sorry, for some reason I thought it was for the year.

[geek_sabre]

34. $22k/month adds up to $264,000

Your expenses seem rather arbitrary. For instance, I pay nearly $2k in rent/utilities for a mediocre studio in manhattan. Not exactly appropriate for families (for whom the $250k cutoff applies). Cost of living matters!

http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofliving/costofliving.html

Entering values for my most recent move (Louisville KY to Manhattan, NY):

If I made $250,000 in Louisville, an equivalent salary in Manhattan would be $596,510.

Going the other way (moving from Manhattan to Louisville), if I made $250,000 in Manhattan, an equivalent salary in Louisville would be $104,776.

I don't make anywhere near $250,000, but when I input my actual salary, my equivalent Louisville pay would be $29,000 (2k less than my actual salary in Louisville).


For your example
Gross Monthly Pay ($250,000/12): $20,833.33
-taxes (fed/state/city/SocSec/Medicare) = $8,362.06
Net Monthly Pay: $12,471.27

So if we keep your other expenses (since I don't have time to find actual numbers):
-rent/mortgage = 2k
-health insurance = 2k
-car payments = 1k
-food costs = 1k
-college costs = 5k (2 kids in a 30k/year college)
-utilities = 1k

That leaves approximately $471.27 for "saving," or more realistically, parking, tolls, toiletries, gas. Maybe a haircut or a movie? Nothing left for saving.

So, $250,000 doesn't feel "filthy rich" in NYC.

[TheKentuckian]

35. There is nowhere in this country that 250k isn't a very high income

and no matter what the cost of living is at or slightly above 15k a year folks are expected to make it and handle their business.

A person living in the exact same scale of economy making 18k as the poor downtrodden quarter of a million dollar earner is expected to have his tithe to the insurance cartel. If that person can "afford" 8.5% for the cartel, then don't even pretend someone in the top 20% can't pay 3% to maintain our society.

[bluestateguy]

12. They in fact do pay different tax rates

The person making $250,000 is and would be paying a higher bracket than someone making $22,000. That is true whether under Bush tax rates or Clinton era tax rates.

[Bonobo]

17. I never claimed that they payed the same tax rate. nt

[Lionessa]

7. I'm somewhat ambiguous about the range from 250K - 1M. Either limit is better than what we have,

even a complete repeal is better than what we have. Seems that the extra tax deposits will help the deficit quite a bit more, and 250K seems like a good place to draw the line. However if somehow the final bill is $1M, I'd consider it a +.

[JHB]

11. From a historical perspective, arguing over 250K is ridiculous

In 1955 there were 24 tax brackets. Adjusting for inflation two-thirds of them affected incomes over 250K. The top brackets affected incomes in the millions.

No, 250K shouldn't be treated the same as 30- or 40K. Neither should it be treated the same as 500K or 750K or 3million.

[onlyadream]

31. Totally agree.

And it seems obvious, so why is this not being considered?

[NNN0LHI]

24. Anyone else surprised this thread doesn't have a hundred recommendations?

We must have quite a few trust fund babies here at DU.

Don

[Bonobo]

26. I do not think I am a very popular OP'er...

That might be part of the reason.

[NNN0LHI]

28. I honestly don't think it has anything to do with "popularity"

I think it has more to do with the truth you spread here.

I don't think I am very popular here for the same reason.



Don

[joshcryer]

25. +1, let the cuts expire.

Fortunately Obama won't be able to get the 250k cuts and they should expire in due course.

He's just using it as campaign rhetoric.

[kentuck]

27. People making less than $1 million a year should pay no taxes at all.

And those making over $1 million a year should have a tax cut.

Maybe the Repubs will finally agree with us. This Democratic Party is more conservative, when it comes to taxes, than was the Reagan Administration.

[TheOther95Percent]

36. I make $260K.

I've done very well with my career and I have money coming in from inherited wealth. I live in a high cost of living area and I can afford to pay more in taxes. I have a reasonable standard of living and I give generously to family members. I can still afford more in taxes.