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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMotorcyclist kicks car and triggers chain-reaction crash in apparent road-rage video
Source: Los Angeles Times
The California Highway Patrol is searching for a motorcyclist who was captured on video as he kicked a vehicle on the 14 Freeway in Santa Clarita on Wednesday and triggered a wild, chain-reaction crash that left one motorist injured when his truck flipped.
The 22-second clip of the apparent road-rage incident has been shared thousands of times on Facebook. It shows the motorcyclist kicking the driver’s side of a sedan in the southbound carpool lane of the freeway. The sedan responds by veering left and sideswiping the motorcycle.
...
Though the video shows the driver of the sedan swerving into the motorcycle, investigators still want to talk to the motorcyclist before citing anyone or making an arrest.
“We need to get the motorcyclist’s side of the story to see what led up to this incident. We’re not sure what happened farther back,” Greengard said.
More: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-road-rage-motorcycle-crash-20170622-story.html#
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jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Not being an expert on automotive performance, was his kick essentially a "PIT maneuver" that caused the car to swerve to the left like that, or was the driver trying to take him out after the kick?
mnhtnbb
(31,399 posts)I hope someone is able to enhance the motorcycle and get the license plate.
tblue37
(65,458 posts)upset the cyclist, and the cyclist responded by kicking the car, and then the driver tried to take him out.
Who knows how it started. Maybe one cut off the other or did something else that annoyed him, leading to a series of escalated retaliations.
It might have started with something as idiotic as flipping the bird.
But it sure does look like the driver meant to take out the cyclist.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...an impact to the back quarter panel will destabilize a car at speed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIT_maneuver
tblue37
(65,458 posts)
unblock
(52,285 posts)Other than startle and annoy the sedan driver.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Idiot in car tried to take him out...
Obviously the driver in car can't drive worth a fuck which is more than likely why he deserved the kick in the first place.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Given that the cyclist leg is positioned between two wheels on the ground which provide lateral stability for the cyclist during the kick/push, can you tell me what force is required, or why you believe the weight of the car matters?
Or is that just an armchair opinion?
LesterKasai
(132 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I gather that there are folks who don't quite grasp the relevant physics of the PIT maneuver.
(hint: it is based, in part, on principles of gyroscopic precession)
LesterKasai
(132 posts)
LOL Lib
(1,462 posts)For the bike rider to have initiated a pit maneuver, the strike would need to occur behind the car's rear wheel. More importantly is that the mass of bike and rider is not enough to cause such a violent reaction from the bigger car.
The car was intentionally trying to take out the bike. The only other plausible explanation would be that the car driver was startled and over reacted.
The car driver should be charged with attempted murder imo.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)At the axle will work, but further back gives you more leverage, until you reach the point where the structure of the car won't bear the force and you just do cosmetic damage.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)at say 30mph, it would likely not result in a spinout or 'successful' PIT maneuver.
When the police do it, they don't just whack the other car, they push through it at power. The cyclists leg would have broken before successfully applying enough force to appreciably move the car.
LOL Lib
(1,462 posts)That the bike rider would remain in motion since he/she is not a fixed part of the bike's mass. This would further reduce the bike's force on the car in a t-bone collision. There is simply not enough mass from a bike to cause the reaction in the video, certainly not enough from a side kick from the rider.
I can't get over how dumb that move was from the rider! No way would I put my body against a car in a "street fight." He is lucky to have escaped unscathed!
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=4644
PIT and Push Bumpers
Bumpers are tested to 2,000 pounds of force, providing optimum protection to the front of the vehicle.
-------
Okay, so someone tests PIT bumpers with 2,000 pounds, suggesting the actual force required for a PIT maneuver is something substantially less than that.
------
https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/physics/8-01x-physics-i-classical-mechanics-with-an-experimental-focus-fall-2002/study-materials/jumping.pdf
At the end of this .pdf you will find data on the amount of force required to break the smallest section of the tibia.
-------
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC314389/
Ground Reaction Forces Among Gymnasts and Recreational Athletes in Drop Landings
------------
The bottom line is that dismounting gymnasts can experience from 8-12 g on impact.
Casual jumping up and down causes about 3-4 g and is considered "low impact" (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1359/jbmr.2001.16.12.2369/pdf
Journal of Bone and Mineral Research Volume 16, Issue 12, Version of Record online: 1 DEC 2001)
If you weigh in the range of 200 pounds, and you casually jump up and down, you are experiencing impact forces of 600 to 800 pounds, and that is considered "low impact". Your legs can withstand very large longitudinal impact forces.
So, let's put this together. PIT bumpers are "tested to 2000 pounds". Legs can handle longitudinal impact forces well above 1,000 pounds (otherwise you'd break your legs by jumping down just a few feet).
The PIT maneuver is based on leverage applied well behind the rear wheel, to affect the rolling motion of the tire, not to shove it sideways.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Remember, this guy flapped out with his leg in a awkward seated position. My R1150GS would afford me a much more solid kicking platform. Still sitting, but I can telegraph out with the whole leg. He's more like someone sitting in an office chair.
But I can see us going round and round on this without hard numbers, and I do not have a formula for how much energy or force required to successfully PIT a vehicle that size.
Obviously HE did not break his leg, but I would contend it didn't cause the loss of control either.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)My question of whether a PIT maneuver can be done from a motorcycle is one of purely academic interest at this point, since from the video, you can see the dent that was put in the car (from the kick and subsequent impact with the motorcycle).
brush
(53,815 posts)the kick from the biker would have pushed the car in away from the motorcycle not towards it.
It's pretty apparent that the driver swerved left to retaliate for the kick. He/she is such a poor driver though and overcompensated in steering the car back into the traffic lane and caused two other vehicles to be taken out.
Foolish antics on the part of both the biker and the driver.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I'm not saying it would. I'm asking whether it is possible under any circumstances.
I don't think after the car hit the barrier that he had any steering control of the car at all.
It's tough to drive when an airbag has just exploded in your face, even if the steering mechanism is functional.
brush
(53,815 posts)
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)He had no right to kick that car. None. Period.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,334 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Two possibilities; the kick elicited an angry swerve toward him, or, the kick prompted an otherwise oblivious driver to become aware of him, panic, swerve and lose control.
That the initial swerve is toward the bike suggests anger, but does not prove it. Basically when people freak out and panic, the outcome is probably closer to 50/50 left or right.
That uncertainty is likely why the CHP want to talk to him. If they'd exchanged words, the driver could not claim 'oblivious/panic' as a defense.
(Also the cyclist fled the scene)
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)The other two are festering assholes
demmiblue
(36,875 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)*crosses arms*
*glares*
petronius
(26,603 posts)
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Neither is a pickup truck, like the Honda Ridgeline, Subaru Baja/Brat or Volkswagen Rabbit with a bed.
But it was in jest, as well.
petronius
(26,603 posts)the difference that matters! 
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)As a result of the road-rage incident, officials explained, when the Nissan lost control, it crashed into a center divider before caroming into the No. 2 lane, where it broadsided a Cadillac truck, resulting in the Cadillac rolling over.
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/06/23/santa-clarita-road-rage-accident-caught-on-video/
For reference, this is a what an avalanche looks like...
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Just like the Cadillac Escalade ESV and the Chevy Suburban are the same vehicle.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)
tblue37
(65,458 posts)responsibility for his involvement does indicate a high level of a**holeness.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)The video does not show what led up to him putting his foot out.
In any event, simply driving off was the wrong thing to do.
Ms. Toad
(34,085 posts)I only ride a people powered bike, and I have kicked a truck in self-defense.
It pulled out into me without looking. Despite the fact that his street was postered with signs warning about heavy bike traffic on that particular day. Despite the fact that he stopped at the sidewalk giving the appearance that he was attentive to the possibility of traffic (foot, bike, or vehicle). The kick was accompanied by a scream. That got his attention enough that he stopped and, miraculously, the only damage done was a momentary entanglement of my pedal with the pedal of the person coming up behind me. And a big adrenalin rush so the miles to the next rest stop went by pretty darn quickly!
So I am familar with the concept of kicking to defend my lane. Here, there isn't much lead up on the tape, but it didn't look to me as if the car was pulling into the bike's lane.
Ilsa
(61,695 posts)to do his kick. He could have dropped back to be safe. I can't fathom why he'd do it, other than anger, and we don't know why he was angry.
dalton99a
(81,565 posts)He saw the truck flipping over in front of him
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)LesterKasai
(132 posts)It's looks to me like the kick caused the car to swerve, in a pit maneuver type fashion, because the swerve happened almost instantaneously with the kick.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)to move a car with a mere kick! 
The idiot biker kicked the car, and then either
A) The driver swerved to hit the biker in a retaliatory fashion
Or
B) The driver panicked because he's a dumbshit and lost control of his car.
Whichever is true both of these idiots should be kept off the road forever because they're menaces.
LesterKasai
(132 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)
I've actually kicked a car door at speed before and you have to be careful because you can make your bike swerve and crash from the force. Like kicking a brick wall going 60 down the road.
Physics, they still teach that?
LesterKasai
(132 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)The least they deserve is a dent in the door as a reminder to watch out for bikes..
LesterKasai
(132 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)But you believe the appropriate response to someone making an inadvertent error is violence.
Or are you suggesting they intentionally tried to hit you.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)I've only done it once in my days of riding but you can ask the biker communities their thoughts and a poll probably...
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I do about 150 miles a week on a bicycle, and I'm pretty familiar with "things drivers do" when around two-wheeled vehicles. I have been run off roads, had things thrown at me, and all sorts of intentional and unintentional behavior. None of it would justify assaulting someone.
Attacking someone's car, intentionally, is not at all acceptable, and the law is also not determined by a poll.
golfguru
(4,987 posts)
stopbush
(24,396 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Don't fucking kick a car at speed.
That gives bikers a bad name.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Yes, they still teach it. I had an undergraduate minor in it, and went on to a doctorate in engineering.
Kicking a car door is very different from applying a lateral force behind the rear wheel.
Since, obviously, performing a PIT maneuver from a car does not smash up the hood of the car performing the maneuver, it is not at all like "a brick wall".
Are you saying that when a PIT maneuver is performed by an automobile, it is at all comparable to hitting a wall?
But, I'm not sure how they teach physics now. When I studied it, conclusions required one to actually do some relevant calculations in order to prove a point, and not just say "Because physics".
It's not a simple matter of "pushing the back end of a car sideways".
snooper2
(30,151 posts)So besides the basic, an object in motion tends to stay in motion...
You also have to take into account the structure of the automobile. I imagine kicking a steel bumper from the side would be similar to a brick wall to the rider of the bike. Now kicking the door skin which is on average around 20 or 22 gauge steel is going to give, given that you don't hit the side impact bars.
I guess we can go on with this for hours
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)The weight of the vehicle is not really relevant to the force required to destabilize its forward motion.
"I guess we can go on with this for hours"
No, you can either state "X pounds of force on the rear quarter is required to destabilize the vehicle" based on an actually relevant calculation, or you can state "I don't know".
Personally, having learned and taught physics, I can say "I don't know" since I've never looked at the question of forces required to perform a PIT maneuver.
Or, you can post laughing smilies, I guess.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Is the road surface asphalt or concrete?
Are the tires 185/75 R14 or 335/40 R19?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Clearly, you don't know either.
Since, obviously, it would be a dangerous thing to attempt, there is little experimental data to go on.
But since you know so much about PIT maneuvers, why not just state the force generally required on the rear quarter panel to perform one?
snooper2
(30,151 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Again, I probably took more physics than you did, and one of the things I learned is that guessing at things is a poor substitute for actually relevant figures and/or experiments.
Dealing with impact forces is a little more difficult than people with some introductory physics normally assume.
You might think, that if you legs normally hold up your weight, that somehow that's the usual amount of force your legs can transmit, but that's simply not how it works.
If you weigh around, say, 150 pounds, then your legs can transmit impact forces many times that amount. Otherwise you couldn't, say, jump from a height of a couple of feet onto a hard surface.
Saying "I think I know the answer" without reference to anything physically relevant, is the precise opposite of what Mythbusters is about.
mitch96
(13,923 posts)knocking them selfs off their bikes trying to kick a car.. hysterical!!
m
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The contact patch on the ground, for a motorcycle's tires is FAR LESS than half that of a car. And since you're considering a PIT type maneuver, where the force is exerted on the rear, it's still a much larger contact patch, with much more down force, than a motorcycle.
If the kick transmits enough force for the car to break loose, the bike breaks loose first.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)First off, it is obvious from freezing the video at four seconds that the impact was well in front of the rear wheel (as determined by the dent in the car), so this discussion is largely academic.
I gather there is a belief that the PIT maneuver relies upon actually pushing the tires sideways. It does not. It's about destabilizing the path of a rolling object, using leverage, which is why the force required decreases as a function of distance from the rear wheel.
Applying leverage on the rear of a car, from the center of what is essentially a tripod, is not the same thing as pushing a car sideways.
But, again, the motorcycle is in the wrong position anyway, so that's not an issue.
It looked initially like the motorcycle was toward the rear because, in the few short moments where the video starts, you can see the motorcyle is speeding up to come adjacent to the driver's side door. The cars running lights are on, but the brake lights are not on, so the car does not seem to be decelerating.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I would not pin it to the dent. Allegedly the cyclist kicked the car more than once, so the impact at the spinout might not be the impact that caused the obvious dent. I'm also not sure about the closing speed, the car could simply have let off the gas, or even downshifted. No brake lights.
His leg is at a low/off angle from a seated position, the dent would absorb energy, etc. I just don't see the force being sufficient, without causing navigational distress for the motorcycle first.
I ride... A LOT. You could not pay me ANY sum of money to attempt to kick a moving vehicle at freeway speeds on my bike. No way. No amount of rage would cause me to risk it, and I wouldn't even expect it to be productive.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)But if the videographer's account is accurate, a whole lot of weird transpires up to that point.
Does it look to you as if the car actually does impact the motorcycle in the initial moment of the swerve? That's why it looks to me as if the dent is consistent with that impact.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)(hint 1: the amount of force decreases with rearward position)
I believe the answer is a lot less than some people assume.
LOL Lib
(1,462 posts)This is supposed to be a fact/science based community. Sir Isaac Newton would be embarrassed by some responses in this thread. 
haele
(12,666 posts)to avoid the motorcycle would send the rear end of the car as equally violently to the left, no matter how good his or her control of the car was.
The weight of the back end of a front-wheel drive vehicle along with the fact that there is no "turn" to the rear wheels will "fishtail" to the left as the driver yanks the steering wheel to the right due to the instinct to avoid another vehicle. That's what I saw in the video.
Same physics at work behind the reason driving instructors tell you that when you start spinning out and losing control because of speed, you turn *into the spin* to straighten out. It's also similar to why when driving with a trailer on a hitch, you turn opposite to the way the trailer needs to turn to back in.
I would need to see the entire episode to attempt to consider fault. While the motorcyclist is far more vulnerable because of his or her lack of protection, that doesn't mean the driver would automatically be entirely at fault in this incidence.
I will admit a bit of bias - two days ago, an idiot rider who was in way too much of a hurry was swerving and splitting lanes during rush hour traffic, and we nearly hit him while responsibly changing lanes (turn signals, looking around, and waiting until there was an opening) after he swerved across two lanes and around the car that was letting us in to split the lanes we were crossing - at 80+ MPH or so. And then he flipped us off after passing us - after Laz swerved back into our lane not to hit him when he suddenly appeared next to my window and swerved into the opening we were in the process of going to.
And that wasn't the first time we had to wait and let a lane-splitter pass us at high speed before we moved into a lane on the freeway.
Haele
Warpy
(111,316 posts)It would be really instructive to know what provoked the kick. If the kick did anything but make a noise, the biker would have knocked himself flat.
It really does look like the driver was out to get the biker. Twice. Then because he was a rage addled dumb shit, he collided with the median barrier and wrecked a pickup truck.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)DaleFromWPB
(76 posts)The biker believed he was cut off earlier and this was actually the second time he kicked the car.
The kick of car we saw won't do anything other than annoy the driver. After the kick the driver swerved to the left possibly attempting to run the biker into the barriers. It is some amazing riding that the rider didn't go down.
The driver, after making contact with the rider, swerved back to the right and lost control of his car. He then came back left, in front of the bike, and smashed into the barrier went back right and hit the pick-up truck.
The biker escaped death twice, once when was almost forced into the barrier and again when the sedan swerved in front of him. I would have needed to change underwear if I was the biker.
The biker started the conflict, the driver escalated it, the pick-up was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The rider definitely should have stopped to render aid.
Motorcycles NEVER win a collision with a car or truck.
Flo Mingo
(492 posts)As people said, the driver of the car probably did something to endanger the rider. The rider was totally wrong to attempt to retaliate on the driver for his inattention. I was ready to give the driver the benefit of the doubt that his actions may have been triggered by overreacting to the kick but then I watched the video several times on the 42" screen and can see no discernable evidence that the driver turned his head to see what struck the car. Plus, if there was indeed a previous altercation, I'm pretty sure both were aware of where the other was. Harleys are not quiet.
The rider showed amazing skill to avoid both possible collisions, leading me to believe that it is someone with many years of riding experience. Riders I've know with that much experience, although the road rage reaction doesn't excuse it, don't react that way for no reason.
Rider knew he shared some culpability, thus the decision to leave the scene. Again, another bad choice by the rider.
Glad everyone is OK. Hope the rider has to answer for his actions, too.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)If I was going down the highway at speed and thought I heard an impact to the side of the car, my first reaction would be to check the side mirror on that side, instead of turning my head around while driving down the highway.
Flo Mingo
(492 posts)There's only one person who knows for sure.
Flo Mingo
(492 posts)Just curious. Based on your observation that your first reaction would have been to check your side mirror, what do you think your reaction would have been?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)It doesn't seem a mirror check was necessary, since the cyclist was directly adjacent the driver.
Additionally, if the account of the person who made the video was correct, the motorcyclist had passed between two cars to the right of the video person's car, while the driver was moving out of the HOV lane. Hence the driver did not anticipate a motorcycle appearing during the lane change.
In order to get from the situation described by the person who made the video, to where the action starts in the video, the car apparently moved back into the HOV lane in order to get away from the motorcycle, whereupon the motorcyclist would have had to chase him back in the HOV lane, and then come up alongside the car on the driver's side, to get to the point where the video starts.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Or the biker was pissed that a single occupant car was in what appears to be an HOV lane.
Incidentally, motorcycles ARE allowed in HOV lanes.
Flo Mingo
(492 posts)Just not typical of bikers I know to respond like that. Especially for something as trivial as riding in the HOV lane. Traffic wasn't so heavy that it would have been easy to go around.
That being said there's no shortage of people who lower the bar on the regs.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)If you freeze the video before the car hits the wall, you can see on the side of the car the dent caused by the initial impact with the motorcycle, which suggests the motorcyclist was directly adjacent to the driver.
haele
(12,666 posts)I still have a M-class license; rode a 175cc scooter as a commuter vehicle for five years, but typically used city streets instead of the highway. I was always very careful to keep my lane whenever I rode.
The law currently allows Motorcycles and Highway-legal Scooters to "split" lanes for short distances when it is safe to do so; specifically if traffic is stopped, and the rider proceeds at a slow, safe speed.
However...
I regularly see riders splitting lanes and rapidly weave lanes for long distances at freeway speeds during normal traffic. Two days ago, we had our signal on and ** were in afternoon "rush hour" traffic (45 mph, congested) and in the process of changing lanes *** when a rider came around from two lanes over (I had seen him in my passenger mirror coming on the freeway), swung around behind the car we had just passed, and split the lane between us at around 80 mph. *He flipped us off* as Laz swerved back into our original lane - nearly hitting the car that had been in front of us and another that was trying to take our place - to avoid hitting him when he suddenly rocketed around the car that was letting us in. And we could see him going on for about a mile down the road, still at high speed, still splitting the lanes, still almost causing accidents.
We were hoping the CHP would see him and pull his stupid ass over. We see guys (and gals) like him every single day on California Freeways.
I cringe every time I see these jerks. Yes, some drivers are a-holes, but IME, there's way too many "in a hurry" Doner-Cycle riders that make the rest of us riders look as bad as the few drivers that think it's funny to run us off the road.
Haele
R B Garr
(16,966 posts)Sometimes you want to change lanes in your vehicle quickly yourself, and the motorcycles are almost always unexpected and hidden when they are straddling lanes like that. It would be very traumatic to be involved in something with a motorcycle just for routinely changing car lanes. It's traumatic, scary and startling for the vehicle drivers, as well.
Flo Mingo
(492 posts)I've seen way too many dangerous riders that take their own safety and the safety of others for granted just as I've seen rude and oblivious drivers pose a lethal threat to riders.
It wasn't my intent to assign blame for what happened. Looks like there was plenty to go around. I was only making an observation about the likelihood the driver did something to aggravate or endanger the rider as a precursor to the whole event.
I give the bike rider the majority of the blame in this instance. Whatever proceeded the kick they had full opportunity to get away from the car and chose a physical response instead. Whatever the source of their anger, there's no denying that had they rode away none of this would have happened.
MiddleClass
(888 posts)When the adrenaline is pumping, you need to stay in check.
No matter who's at fault,
700 pound rice rocket versus 4000 pound vehicle = >4000 wins.
The vehicle driver can be 100% wrong . Your dead, you lose.
I have cut off motorcycles. Even though I ride one, you just don't see them or hear them at speed.
Never assume another driver knows you're there, that's how young guys who ride motorcycles.
Do not become old-timers who ride motorcycles
R B Garr
(16,966 posts)Who would think a motorcyclist would or could kick their car with their foot on the open highway. They must have thought the cyclist had more sinister ideas than a foot kick, after which he would be happily on his way and all is good. Maybe he thought the biker had a gun or something else hit his car. That biker had no business kicking that car. People are cut off every time they drive. If you go and strike someone's vehicle in such a dangerous way, that's just sheer aggression and hostility. No wonder the car driver reacted like that.
LesterKasai
(132 posts)R B Garr
(16,966 posts)the biker's part. He had to position himself just so to execute it. Looks like he has experience with that.
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)Why did the biker kick the car to begin with? Response to being cut off, or something like that?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...what prior event would have justified kicking the car?
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)I wasn't seeking a justification for the action, just curious about what set this whole thing off.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Best guess is that the driver changed lanes when the motorcycle was in his/her blind spot.
But there's a problem with that...
I'm not familiar with the road in question, though, and there appears to be two yellow lines on the side of that lane.
Is it some sort of HOV or express lane?
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)But that might have been related to something else I read/saw on the net.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)But I'm not familiar with that stretch of road or what the lane marking might indicate.
Since most of the traffic is not in that lane, it may be that the motorcyclist was merely pissed that a single driver vehicle was in the HOV lane.
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)The speed with which the car driver responded to the kick makes me think he was watching the bike immediately prior to the kick (the absolute purest of speculation on my part). Doesn't appear that there was any pause for a "What the fuck was that?" moment.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I'm not familiar with the lateral force required to destabilize a vehicle at speed. My general understanding is that the required force decreases with speed, and with the rearward position of the impact.
The assumption is that the "driver responded to the kick", but as you point out, it seems to be much more immediate than if it was a reaction by the driver.
But, if you freeze the video at around 4 seconds and look at the side of the car before it hits the wall, you'll see the position of the motorcycle, as indicated by the dent on the door.
So, he was directly adjacent the driver, hence not a PIT, but an assault on the driver.
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)That camera appears to be hand held rather than something like a dash mounted GoPro. What caused the person operating the camera (passenger, presumably) to decide to get the cellphone out and begin recording (presuming it's a hand held cellphone)?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)---
Chris Taber, the driver who shot the video, says moments before he grabbed his phone, the motorcyclist had also passed him between lanes.
Then, when the Nissan’s driver tried to get out of the carpool lane, he bumped the motorcycle. Traber doesn’t know if it was an accident or on purpose. That’s when the two men started yelling and the biker started kicking the Nissan driver’s door.
“I’m sure the guy on the motorcycle was scared and totally startled because he almost went down and I’m sure his adrenaline kicked in,” Traber said.
Meanwhile, the father of the Nissan driver told KCAL 9 off-camera that his son became scared when he said the biker flashed that looked like a knife at him.
Benavidez also spoke to the 19-year-old following the crash.
“He came and saw to it that I was okay,” says Benavidez, “You know, he had a bottle of water. He gave me a bottle of water. He was kind of in shock himself. He apologized.”
-----
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)I confess my guilt and will now retire to the front yard, where I shall sit in sackcloth and ashes. 
Note to self: should probably call the wife first and prepare her for more complaints from the neighbors.
mitch96
(13,923 posts)Lets see. You control the throttle of a bike with your right hand. The only way to flash a knife is with your left. So you have a motorcycle and a door between you and the knife going at speed.
I call bullshit on this one..
m
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Events are well in progress by the time the video starts, so whether or not the claim is true is not answered by the video.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Does the double yellow line indicate an HOV or express toll lane of some kind?
dalton99a
(81,565 posts)R B Garr
(16,966 posts)described. A HOV/diamond/carpool lane or toll lane.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)That camera appears to be hand held rather than something like a dash mounted GoPro. What caused the person operating the camera (passenger, presumably) to decide to get the cellphone out and begin recording (presuming it's a hand held cellphone)?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Chris Taber, the driver who shot the video, says moments before he grabbed his phone, the motorcyclist had also passed him between lanes.
Then, when the Nissan’s driver tried to get out of the carpool lane, he bumped the motorcycle. Traber doesn’t know if it was an accident or on purpose. That’s when the two men started yelling and the biker started kicking the Nissan driver’s door.
“I’m sure the guy on the motorcycle was scared and totally startled because he almost went down and I’m sure his adrenaline kicked in,” Traber said.
Meanwhile, the father of the Nissan driver told KCAL 9 off-camera that his son became scared when he said the biker flashed that looked like a knife at him.
Benavidez also spoke to the 19-year-old following the crash.
“He came and saw to it that I was okay,” says Benavidez, “You know, he had a bottle of water. He gave me a bottle of water. He was kind of in shock himself. He apologized.”
R B Garr
(16,966 posts)He obviously knew his actions were not something he wanted to describe to the cops who would show up.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)The driver was, incidentally, 19 years old.
The person who made the video claims that the driver of the car was in the HOV lane, had realized that, and was initially moving to the right to get out of the HOV. lane. That person also claims that the motorcycle had passed between occupied lanes on the right and into the path of the car moving to the right. Then, an argument ensued between the cyclist and the driver.
R B Garr
(16,966 posts)driving normally in lane allowing the motorcycle to pass it, but the motorcycle was instead trying to position himself instead of overtaking the car. Maybe the driver thought the motorcycle had more sinister motives. It is already dangerous exiting the carpool lane, and very easy to overlook a motorcycle who has just scooted up possibly out of sight. It really looks like the cyclist kept it going and wanted revenge -- and at what price.
petronius
(26,603 posts)of the truck (Benavidez) saying that the driver of the Nissan (the 19 year old) apologized and offered water...
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2017/06/22/motorcycle-kick-road-rage/
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)
hunter
(38,322 posts)Yeah, that justifies deadly force.
What happens next? The biker jumps off his bike like an alien super-villain, crashes through your windshield and slits your throat?
I won't claim I was any less of a hothead when I was nineteen, but I'd ridden bicycles and motorcycles and been a pedestrian in large cities enough to encounter a few careless drivers who somehow thought it was MY fault they weren't paying attention when they almost killed me.
I like to think I'd have accepted a kicked door with grace.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)If the account of the person who made the video is correct, then it seems as if the motorcyclist would have had to chase the car driver back into the HOV lane and then pull up alongside the driver's window for whatever purpose he had in mind.
hunter
(38,322 posts)Using a car in a threatening manner isn't any different than using a gun in a threatening manner.
As I said, I like to think I'd have accepted a kicked door with grace no matter whose "fault" it was.
Car vs. Motorcycle is not an equal match.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)hunter
(38,322 posts)Shotguns work best.
I was going to post here ironically a youtube clip from some Hollywood action movie. Unfortunately the first things that showed up in my youtube search were motorcyclists seriously advocating Mad Max style open carry.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)incident. Daddy Gun Nut taught him well and got rewarded by being elected Prez for a year.
mitch96
(13,923 posts)when I was a kid I knew a crusty old harley rider who carried 1" ball bearings in his vest pocket. If someone got stupid he would wait a bit, ride in front of him at a distance and then toss the ball bearings straight up and over his head. Like a slow motion gun blast to the car behind..
crude but effective with a touch of plausible deniability thrown in... Another guy carried a tire iron between the handle bars "just in case" . Both kinda stupid if you ask me.. Like others said. De car be bigga mon...
m
R B Garr
(16,966 posts)trying to draw a bead on him the way he was hovering there on the driver's side. It's been done before.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Someone is angry, pulls up next to you specifically, and you hear a loud bang of something hitting your door.
Your move is:
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)
NutmegYankee
(16,201 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Ground speed would then be your friend, as he can presumably no longer work the clutch.
NutmegYankee
(16,201 posts)If someone draws a gun on you, speeding up isn't going to save you. In fact, speeding up and pulling away may present a better target for the biker. Rather than reach out with a weight at arms length, he can rest the pistol on the handle bar and use the natural lengthwise balance to fire at the car far more effectively.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)It's about forcing the person on the motorcycle to deal with too many things to actually aim at you.
You have, with trade-offs, one hand; statistically the off-hand. (Unless shooter has a throttle lock)
Yes, that car is a piece of shit, but if it were me and thought that was a real threat, I'd punch it. Full-tilt boogie.
NutmegYankee
(16,201 posts)Last edited Sat Jun 24, 2017, 12:37 AM - Edit history (1)
He can aim the pistol over the handlebars and benefit from a natural balance and take aim. I think slamming on the brakes is the better option. The biker would have to rapidly put on his brakes and switch gears all while dealing with the fact that his target is behind him.
hunter
(38,322 posts)Especially when it's my own stupidity that has escalated the conflict.
Retreat!
A simple tap of the brakes would do, followed by a quick exit. Biker dude goes on his way, no mayhem.
I've got a knife scar on my arm reminding me of past times when I wasn't so smart.
Without a doubt I would accept with little more than a 
a motorcyclist kicking my door, whether I deserved it or not.
janx
(24,128 posts)What kind of idiots would endanger other people on the freeway like that? Grrrr! I see enough reckless driving where I live. When rage is added, it's doubly inexcusable.
karadax
(284 posts)People that drive other autos. Without the quick reactions after the car swerved at him he likely would have been grated along that guard rail in a juicy red streak.
I give bikes a wide berth. If they ride up on me I do my best to remind them to extend the same courtesy to me.
Skittles
(153,174 posts)endangering themselves and everyone on the road
fuck them
tenderfoot
(8,438 posts)eom
petronius
(26,603 posts)...
Traber said that after the motorcyclist regained control, he pulled up to the car’s passenger door and began gesturing at the driver. Traber said he appeared to be saying something too, but Traber couldn’t hear him. ...
Traber said it looked as though the driver was yelling something back at the biker, and that it didn’t help matters, because that’s when the motorcyclist started kicking the passenger door.
...
The motorcyclist then swooped behind the sedan, pulled up along the driver side and kicked the car again, Traber said. In a flash, the driver of the sedan swerved hard left and sideswiped the motorcyclist, almost sending him barreling into a concrete freeway divider, he said.
...
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-road-rage-video-santa-clarita-20170623-story.html
Based on that, my e-Expert opinion is that they were both assholes, but the driver swerved left to scare the biker after multiple kicks and triggered the big wreck. And it sounds like the driver was at fault at the very beginning, by trying to exit the car-pool lane without seeing the biker (although I'd share that blame if the biker was speeding excessively), and maybe by crossing the double-yellow...
dalton99a
(81,565 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)They were headed southbound on the 14 Freeway, and driving in the No. 1 lane, when the man on a Harley Davidson-type motorcycle passed them on the left, riding close to the double-yellow lines that separate the general traffic lanes from the HOV lanes.
About 150 feet ahead was a Nissan sedan driving in the HOV lane, Traber said. Just as the motorcyclist was passing the sedan on the right-hand side, the sedan tried to exit the carpool lane and enter the No. 1 lane. That’s when the car bumped the bike.
“I’m sure he didn’t see the motorcyclist,” Traber said of the driver.
-------
The situation starts with a single-occupant vehicle in the HOV lane. He could have realized he was in the HOV lane, checked his rear to see the following car behind in the right lane, and then looked forward again to start to execute his lane change. The motorcycle passes on the margin of that lane to the right, and probably approaches fast and in the car's blind spot, as the driver changes lanes, in order to cover that 150 feet.
The motorcyclist wouldn't expect a vehicle to be coming out of the HOV lane, and the driver wouldn't be expecting a motorcyle to appear in the lane to the right ahead of the following automobile.
Mistakes can happen.
By the time this video starts, the car has moved back into the HOV lane to get away from the motorcycle.
Then, the motorcyclist is not satisfied with kicking the passenger side of the car, and swoops around to approach the driver's side.
The driver, at that point, might reasonably think the motorcyclist is intending to do him harm of some kind.
I ride a bicycle a lot, and while it is sometimes sorely tempting to get some kind of revenge on a driver who has not seen me or has pulled some other sort of bonehead move, there is the rare breed who will pull a bonehead move and then come looking for more.
The setup on that one was that it is a double-yellow road, the truck wanted to pass the cyclist when there was an oncoming car, and decided that a good compromise was forcing the oncoming car to go partly onto the grass while closely passing the cyclist.
Both the driver and the passenger have a court date of June 28.
I can appreciate the problems of motorcycling, but compared to bicycling, you'd be surprised at how many drivers don't even believe a cyclist has a right to be on a road, and that the suitable response is hitting them or throwing something at them:
http://www.10news.com/news/angry-driver-knocks-local-radio-host-off-his-bicycle-during-charity-ride
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)If it's not, then it should be illegal to mess with a moving car like that.
Warpy
(111,316 posts)They were both wearing their road rage on their sleeves.
d_r
(6,907 posts)I don't know if the car driver intended to swerve in to the motorcycle on purpose or not, but I know sometimes if something surprises me I jump and I would probably swerve if I jumped. I really hate it when motorcycles go between cars when there is a traffic jam. I had a good friend killed on a bike by a driver that just hit him by not paying attention. People are freaking nuts.
ETA what I mean by "I really hate it" isn't that it makes me mad, it makes me scared someone is going to get hurt
FreeJoe
(1,039 posts)Looks like the jerk on the bike kicked the car. Don't know what provoked it and don't care. It wasn't necessary and it was a jerk move. The car responded by trying to crash the bike. That's a much bigger jerk move. And no, it wasn't a startle reflex. If it was, that person is not competent to drive. The innocent fool was the driver of the Escalade that found out the hard way that he/she is driving a vehicle with a serious rollover problem according the NHTSA.
mitch96
(13,923 posts)I guess he just did not want the guy going over the double line.... uffda
m