Can we stop fat shaming politicians we don't like?

[femmedem]

I don't like Christie or Trump any more than the rest of us.

But I do like our fellow DUers, regardless of their weight. And I can see from some of the responses in other threads that when we fat shame politicians, they feel the sting.

Did you think it was ok when Trump mocked a reporter for his disability because he didn't like the reporter?

Would you think it was ok to use a racial slur about Ben Carson because you disagree with him?

Would you think it was ok to disparage Caitlyn Jenner for being trans because you don't like her politics?

After reading fat joke after fat joke in another thread, I felt like I had to speak up, or I would be like the white person in the room who stays quiet when everyone else is telling racist jokes.

[CBHagman]

1. Thank you. It's just mean-spirited but not at all progressive to pull those stunts.

Besides, we need to make the arguments on the principles, not on personalities.

[mythology]

2. I agree. Those sorts of jokes should be beneath us.

[mdbl]

3. I agree, it shows hypocrisy and we should avoid it

I will not post things like that with the one exception that someone finds pics of trump and christie slow dancing in their underwear. One thing that bothers me, though, is the right-wing have been doing it for 35 years now on TV, radio, and print - and they are in power. Is taking the high ground really better? It doesn't seem to be working. For example, Rush Limbutt is the fattest ugliest man in radio, but he makes fun of others. I have been waiting for the general public to shame him off the radio for 30 years now. When will this happen?

[Ms. Toad]

13. Alleging Trump is gay to shame him

Is also offensive, because the insult only works if what you are accusing him of being is perceived as bad.

In other words it is not ok to use being gay as an insult.

[mdbl]

17. oh well, guess I cant even make a joke

I wasn't even remotely trying to comment on anyone's sexuality.

[dumbcat]

109. I think that was the point of the OP

Woooosh!

Your joke invoked homosexuality as something to ridicule, whether you intended it or not.

[mdbl]

240. Actually, I thought any sexual preference would have been grossed out, but that's just me

I think others just chose to be insulted.

[Ms. Toad]

110. Slow dancing in their underwear?

I have a hard time believing that was an accidental reference to sexuality. Playing tennis in their underwear, standing on stage in their underwear, etc. I would buy not being a reference to sexuality - but not slow dancing in their underwear.

I'm sick to death of being used as an insult - and of hearing the weak excuses (I was pointing out the hipocrisy; I wasn't insulting gays - but anything is fair game that will hurt them, etc.), so I point it out when I see it.

[Crash2Parties]

206. Thank you, Ms. Toad. :-)

[Crash2Parties]

207. (pssst. mdbl, this is the part where you say, "ooops - I'm sorry!")

[mdbl]

241. Pssst, Im not.

sorry for that I guess.

[cwydro]

20. Thank you.

There's been a lot of that here unfortunately.

[Not Ruth]

37. I never noticed the Trump is gay narrative before you mentioned it

But it is out there.

Link to tweet

[Ms. Toad]

112. Definitely -

and it was susddenly a lot more acceptable when someone we generally like called him Putin's c**K holster. It seems to have given license to those inclined to use gay as an insult to (1) ramp it up and (2) tell those of us the insult uses as a battering ram to shove off/stop being so thin skinned, etc.

Right after that incident, a few of my alerts pointing it out received 0-7 juries for daring to suggest such insults are bigotry.

[Soxfan58]

214. Did anyone even notice

Mdbl never said anything about them dancing together.

[Ms. Toad]

238. Right. The suggestion that Mdbl meant anything other than "together"

stretches credulity.

Like suggesting that the phrase mAnn Coulter wasn't really intended to imply that she is trans because it didn't use the phrase, "Ann Coullter is transgender."

[mdbl]

242. sorry, you're off base on this one

that's all I will say about it again.

[Ms. Toad]

246. If I (and the others who have commented) are off base,

You could easily clarify the statment so that it is clear you are not suggesting they are slow dancing together. There is no time limit on editing.

[thbobby]

4. Same as MSM

Fat shaming is similar to tweet shaming. It is an easy and thoughtless way to criticize.

I don't dislike Christy because of his weight.

Trump's tweets are irrelevant.

Bridgegate, pension cutting, incompetent governing are among the things that concern me with Christy.

Dishonesty, immorality, stupidity are very generalized concerns about clustertrump. Many more specific things also.

My point is the same as yours: We shoud focus on substantial things and not trivial bullshit.

[Orrex]

5. Fuck him. He deserves whatever shame can be dumped upon him.

Mocking Trump for being fat or stupid or old or small-handed or ugly is no commentary on anyone but Trump, because at the end of the day we attack these traits of his because they are emblematic of his hypocrisy.

I don't mock him because he's fat--I mock him because he's fat AND he mocks others he perceives to be fat.

I don't mock him because he's stupid--I mock him because he's stupid AND he mocks others he perceives to be stupid.

I don't mock him because he's old--I mock him because he's old AND he mocks others he perceives to be old.

I don't mock him for being small-handed--I mock him because he's small-handed AND he mocks others for their perceived lack of virility.

I don't mock him for being ugly--I mock him because he's ugly AND he mocks others for their appearance.


Forgive me, but your question about Caitlyn Jenner misses the mark. I don't like her politics, but that's irrelevant to the fact that she's trans. However, if she mocked someone else for being trans while insisting that she herself is not, then I would attack her for her hypocrisy, just as I attack Trump for his.

[USALiberal]

7. You of course did not read the OP at all. n/t

[Orrex]

14. Since I replied directly to it and specifically addressed several points that it made...

one can conclude that you didn't read my reply at all.

[boston bean]

8. I agree about Trump, but the Christie fat insults are gratuitous and really not worthy as an attack

coming from democrats.

That makes us no better than trump.

[Orrex]

12. I can agree with that

I've never mocked Christie for his weight. His temper tantrums, his unbridled corruption, and his thuggishness, sure. But not his weight.

[tallahasseedem]

55. Bull, this guy terrorized New Jersey...

Not a lot of it is broadcasted. He deserves whatever is thrown at him.

[Crash2Parties]

208. But do people who share that one attribute, but not the rest? 'Cause you're hitting them, too.

[Baconator]

232. I expect more from my leaders...

I would never give an average civilian person even a hint of trouble for their weight.

Fitness is a virtue and an indicator of other qualities (but certainly not foolproof) ...

[HopeAgain]

9. It's hurtful to others...

We don't beat them by becoming them...

[Orrex]

22. And we certainly don't become them by mocking them.

Trump has sexually assaulted women and brags about it. He has stolen billions and brags about it. He has stolen the presidency and brags about it.

He is working to gut healthcare in a way that will literally kill millions. I won't "become him" unless I do something to match that.

[HopeAgain]

40. If we are hurting people who struggle with weight

Then what are we becoming?

[Orrex]

45. When I am insulting Trump--by whatever mechanism--then I am insulting Trump

By making a joke about Trump nearly ripping his tennis shorts and tightie whities, I am not saying "fat people are fucking up the country and destroying healthcare and undermining foreign policy with disastrous longterm consequences."

I am saying that Trump is a hypocrite for mocking people for their weight.

[HopeAgain]

52. Regardless of whether you might be offending others? NT

[Orrex]

53. If they are hypocritical, then they deserve to be offended

If they are not hypocritical, then I'm not talking about them.

[HopeAgain]

63. But derogatory language sweeps broadly against the whole class of people...

I can't believe I'm having this discussion with people who call themselves progressive.

[Orrex]

66. Yeah, the conversation's over when you roll out that sad and tired insult

"No real progressive would ever in a million years imagine doing the thing that I don't personally like to do."

Blah blah blah. Next you'll tell me "not all fat people."

[mythology]

103. Considering the way you completely dismiss any criticism of you

you're not looking for a conversation. You want to act like a child. That's your right. Likewise it's our right to have no respect for that sort of behavior.

[Orrex]

104. Wait--you're justified in mocking me? How so?

I know actual children--how dare you insult them by calling me a child! Why are you justified in mocking me, a private citizen, but you would condemn me for mocking Trump?

In addition to rolling out your cliche insults, you try the old and tired (and entirely false) claim of "you dismiss criticism." Sorry to break it to you, but I understand the criticism and I have addressed it repeatedly (as have others). However, I am under no obligation to accept such criticism or to pretend that it is correct.

[BuddhaGirl]

225. +1

It IS childish to insult anyone based on their appearance. There is no excuse for it.

And then those who engage in this behavior become uber defensive when called on it.

[Adrahil]

71. You may not be deliberately saying that...

But to someone like me, I'm hearing, "fatness is inherently worthy of ridicule, and those who don;t insult me are merely being polite, and if I transgress, my intrinsically vile fatness is fair game."

So, I appreciate that you are calling him out for being a hypocrite, but it's not much different from finding out a Klan member has a black grandmother and mocking them for being black. Whatever you meant, that's hurtful.

[kcr]

77. It's too bad, because some people are capable of reading nuance and context.

Can you at least try to understand that there's something there you aren't seeing, if you can't grasp those things?

[Orrex]

83. Thank you (nt)

[Adrahil]

151. So your response is to insult me?

WTF!?

[kcr]

166. I give up n/t

[Adrahil]

171. Smart move.

Don't try to say you didn't insult me. The "some people can understand nuance" approach is pretty damned clear.

I admit I fucking appalled at how anxious people a segment of folks here are to keep fat-shaming, even when someone pops up and says, "hey, that hurts."

[Chemisse]

21. Your points are valid.

But mocking Trump for being fat because of his hypocrisy is indiscernible from mocking his fatness because you find it disgusting.

People here slip into fat-shaming pretty readily, as well as criticizing based on other aspects of physical appearance. Trump may deserve it, due to his unique assholery, but nobody else does.

[Adrahil]

73. Really well said. Thanks.

[kcr]

78. That's not true.

It certainly is discernable to those who can read the context.

[Chemisse]

87. Context is lost on those who are eager to jump on the fat-people-are-disgusting wagon.

So while I agree that Trump is fair game for this kind of criticism, for some people it just gives them permission to indulge their baser instincts.

[kcr]

91. There are also people all too eager to jump on the finger wagging band wagon.

I can't help but notice some overlap in that department, particularly on DU. It was especially bad during the campaign. When some people noted the hypocricy of the GOP when it came to their criticism of Michelle Obama VS their acceptance of Melania? We were called slut shamers. Seriously. Never mind it was about the GOP's actions, not actual criticism of Melania herself. I get the feeling it's more about the desire to jump on other people and maybe even a little Trump defense. This is the internet.

[Chemisse]

93. Not sure, but are you accusing me of defending Trump?

Ahh, funny. Because if you can't scream with derision at somebody's roll of fat, you must secretly like that person.

I have a history of posting criticisms of fat (or appearance)-shaming here on DU. It's a pet peeve of mine. I don't care if I like the target or hate the target. It's still the same behavior.

My mother use to buy us kids ice cream and we would sit parked at the shopping plaza, where she would proceed to criticize each person who walked by. How fat they were was a favorite theme, but she was happy to comment on ugliness as well.

It was repulsive. It comes from the same dark place as bigotry, and I can't stand to see the same behavior from so-called progressives.

[kcr]

94. No. I wasn't accusing you of anything. Please read again n/t

[Chemisse]

95. Your post was a little confusing, but "maybe even a little Trump defense"

Suggests that I (or others) are defending Trump.

[femmedem]

202. If he or she wasn't accusing you of defending Trump, she or he was accusing me.

to that, too.

[Adrahil]

230. Oh yes, us fat people can't read the context....

Oh yeah... yes we can. But it doesn't make it okay to imply that someone is disgusting for being fat just because they are fat-shaming asshole themselves.

The message is that that fat is disgusting. And even if someone isn't fat-shaming you, they still think it's disgusting and are just too polite to say so. That's like saying using racial slurs against someone is okay if they are using racial slurs. No, it's not.

[Rorey]

25. Emblematic of 45's hypocrisy

You make some very good points.

I don't think how someone looks makes much of an impression on me. We're all different shapes and sizes and it doesn't make us good or bad people. 45 is SUCH an offensive person because of what he says and does, not because of how he looks. But the thing is, people know it gets to him when they ridicule the way he looks. It's a way to rile him, and it's a way to point out what a hypocrite he is.

I kind of cringe when someone makes a comparison between McConnell and a turtle. As far as I know, McConnell has never ridiculed anyone's appearance. He is a despicable person, but how he looks doesn't figure into that. I don't recall ever hearing about Christie ridiculing anyone's appearance. Christie is a despicable person, but his weight issues have nothing to do with that.

45 is such a superficial person, and so judgmental of others based on how they look. When people joke about how he looks it's kind of a way to peel off the scab of his soul and show just how ugly his soul is. It can be a useful tactic to use on someone like him.

[MariaCSR]

39. Agreed.

[Javaman]

48. +1 nt

[Owl]

64. +2

[PatSeg]

80. I have to agree with you

His weight would not be an issue with me, if it weren't for his cruel put down of other people, especially women, about their appearance, their weight, and their eating habits.

Alicia Machado, Miss Universe: "He was very overwhelming. I was very scared of him. He'd yell at me all the time. He'd tell me 'you look ugly' or 'you look fat.' Sometimes he'd 'play' with me and say 'Hello Miss Piggy, hello Miss Housekeeping.' "

As for Christie, I never made fun of him for his weight, though I have said that I thought it would be a health concern, if he were to run for president. Christie is very aware of his weight and doesn't mock other people's opinion. I have mocked his nasty and cruel temper though.

Any ridicule I've seen or heard about Trump's appearance has been to showcase his gross hypocrisy and cruelty to other people when it came to their appearance. I'm not seeing any "fat shaming", I'm seeing "character shaming" and it is much deserved.

[Orrex]

82. Thank you--that's a clear and thoughtful articulation of my point (nt)

[PatSeg]

89. You're welcome

I would never make fun of a person's appearance, but I most certainly would mock their hypocrisy.

[TDale313]

102. The discomfort with the body shaming isn't about them

It's about everyone else who is made to feel bad about themselves when they read those comments and it's about body shaming not being an ok tactic. Fuck Trump. I don't give a damn about him. But you miss the point in thinking objections to certain types of insults have anything to do with the target themselves. They don't.

[Motley13]

105. couldn't have said it better, LOSER 45 thinks he is the greatest, smartest, most handsome

I despise him & can't help myself, he is a fat disgusting slob & an imbecile

[demtenjeep]

178. this

100000000%

[happy feet]

228. +11111

[USALiberal]

6. Nice post but it will go no where. Many here think making fun of appearance is OK. Childish IMO. n/t

[Crash2Parties]

209. So every time someone does so in a coment, we remind them. After a while it is effective.

[Vinca]

10. Oh, good lord. I'm not Twiggy and I think the jokes are hilarious.

If you can't laugh at yourself you've got bigger problems in your life.

[Adrahil]

231. Yeah, and black people...

need to learn to laugh at fried chicken and watermelon jokes, amiright?

I've been laughed at for being fat most of my life. I don't feel the need to laugh at myself on this subject.

[Vinca]

234. Oh, good lord. No wonder lefties are accused of being humorless.

[Adrahil]

235. Insulting someone about their looks isn't humor.

[Vinca]

243. I take it you missed the Don Rickles era.

[Adrahil]

244. I do not find insult comics amusing, generally speaking.

But maybe you're right! Maybe I should laugh my ass off when someone says that when a man like me dared to wear a bathing suit and go to the beach, I look like a beached whale. That's fucking hilarious.

[Vinca]

245. Well, I always crack a joke that if I go to the beach someone will try to push me back into the sea.

Geez . . . lighten up. Life's too short.

[nikibatts]

11. I agree. There is enough to shame the about without getting ugly personally. I don't like fat sham

[JustAnotherGen]

15. Not going to happen in NJ

It might not be 'nice' - but I with Christie it is a reality.

Trump is different - he's the first person to call a woman fat and ugly - so with him - it's a 'fair game' scenario.

Trust me op - if you had chipped nail polish he would berate and scream at you. It's also no secret that he fat shamed his wife - after she gave birth.

[cwydro]

23. Yeah. The old "he did it first" excuse.

I couldn't even get away with that in elementary school.

[jberryhill]

26. It's all in how you say it

If you draw in enough people, once in a while you could confuse the teacher long enough to come up with a better defense - especially if you could provoke an outrageous reaction among the co-defendants.

[cwydro]

32. Lol.

True dat.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

16. As someone who's battled weight my whole life it doesn't

Bother me a bit.

Trump and Christie are living in the lap of luxury and gorging themselves on whatever, whenever, they like, while expecting the rest of us to tighten our belts - metaphorically and otherwise! - to subsidize the good life for them and their privileged ilk. Fuck 'em!

[classykaren]

18. I am very overweight and I agree with you on Christie.

[Adrahil]

29. Well it does bother me. NT

[Dream Girl]

33. Boo friggin hoo. Agree I've been up and down weight wise. Does not bother me one bit.

He is a friggin greedy, avaricious hypocrit Who deserves whatever is thrown at him. That said, the fat comments are kind of dumb and sophomoric but no I have no problem with them. He would say far worse about me and my kind. Hie supports and implements policies that are hurtful to so many.

[athena]

130. If a specific Black person is not bothered by racist comments,

does that mean racist comments are OK?

If a specific woman is not bothered by sexist jokes, does that mean it's OK to make sexist jokes?

There are others on this thread who are clearly offended by fat-shaming comments. I'm sorry, but their opinion on this trumps yours. There is no reason to go out of one's way to make bigoted remarks when one knows that those remarks are hurtful to others. As a New Jersey resident, I can tell you that there is plenty about Chris Christie's actions as governor that is worthy of attack. Are you even aware of why he has shut down the government? Are you aware of how he has line-item-vetoed millions of dollars of spending on issues important to liberals every single year that he has been in office? Are you aware of how many bills passed by both State houses he has vetoed? DUers never hear of those things. All they hear is that Chris Christie is fat. This fat-shaming not only hurts fat people in general, but it creates the false impression that Chris Christie's weight is the only thing about him that can be attacked.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

132. I said it didn't bother *ME* - and it doesn't!

[athena]

136. And I pointed out that it bothers others.

I never claimed that it didn't bother you. By ignoring my entire post and restating something I never disputed, you are showing that you don't, in fact, have a logical response to the points I made.

By the way, being completely focused on oneself and not caring about the feelings and opinions of others is one of the characteristics of Donald Trump. So I'm not sure what makes you think it's such a strong argument to go on and on about how you -- indeed YOU in capital letters -- feel about something.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

138. Whatev!

[athena]

139. So that's your point. That other people's feelings don't matter.

Thanks for making that clear. It really helps, in fact. It shows where people are coming from when they choose to fat-shame others.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

141. Whatev!

[cwydro]

218. How old are you? nt

[50 Shades Of Blue]

221. Too old for this!

[47of74]

176. It doesn't bother me either.

I struggle with weight too.

Trump and Christie and the reich wing never show the slightest bit of hesitation in mocking others for their physical characteristics. While I try to be mindful and try not to go there when I insult those two fornicates, it doesn't bother me if someone mocks either man.

And those two fornicates are in a better position to do something about their weight than a lot of their fellow Americans.

[IronLionZion]

19. To be fair, we have seen all of the above

people have used racism, sexism, and more against Republican politicians. Most of the time it is to point out their own hypocrisy when they are promoting policies that are bad for their own people. But many times it is gratuitous and mean spirited.

Trump calls people fat all the time, especially women, and the fictional 400 pound guy in his mom's basement hacking the DNC instead of hundreds of Russian military hackers. Not sure if Christie does that, but Trump is clearly projecting.

[loyalsister]

31. We lose any standing or credibility to criticize Trump

base on hypocrisy when we try to do it froma hypocritical point of view. Fat shaming Trump is an endorsement of it as a tactic, and ultimately a defense of his favorite insults based on appearance.

[democrank]

24. Thank you for posting this.

I`m as tough as the next one, but frequently cringe at things posted on this site. Many comments here are some I would walk away from in real life, words I wouldn`t want my grandchildren to use.

Many times the end result of using these crude words is the same as what`s said about anarchists who loot and burn in the middle of a peaceful and warranted protest. It takes eyes off the important topic at hand and diverts them to a verbal trainwreck.

[oberliner]

27. Thank you for this post

I was thinking the exact same thing.

[Adrahil]

28. Thank you.

I've been fat my whole life. I've been teased and insulted about it my whole life. Every time I see a fat joke here, I remember when someone said the same thing about me, because believe me, I've heard them all.

[Chemisse]

30. Fat shaming is mean-spirited, and beneath us.

I comment here whenever I see it happen (other than with Trump, whose own fat-shaming comments make him open game).

[zentrum]

34. Fat jokes and ageism

......go unchecked on DU.

Thanks for posting.

[former9thward]

35. If there was a rule that when a poster makes fun of someone's looks

they had to post a picture of themselves. those posts would drop to zero.

[MineralMan]

128. Bingo! Don Pardo: Tell our winner about his great prizes!

That would be an excellent rule, I believe.

[nolabear]

146. But it's so much easier to insult from behind a mask!

It's the order of the day. Anonymous vitriol. It's so freeing!

[Agschmid]

36. Yes please, it's disgusting to read.

[Takket]

38. Agreed

There is more than enough ammo to attack him based on his despicable policies and non existent morals. Don't need to insult his weight too.

[melman]

41. Let's add references to 'shriveled balls and flaccid penis'

That gem is in a current very highly rec'd OP.

'Oh because Tump is disgusting it's okay'...I can hear the defenders now.

But if someone said the equivalent about ANY woman..no matter how hateful or hated...it would never be allowed to stand.

Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

[MarianJack]

44. On the whole I agree,...

...but Donald Trump opened himself to it when he made the size of his dick part of one of the Republican debates last year...and the news media continued to fawn over him.

PEACE!

[Orrex]

56. Yes--that's the entirety of it IMO

Trump has fat-shamed.
Trump has age-shamed.
Trump has dick-shamed.
Trump has appearance-shamed.

Trump has thereby declared open season on himself by these criteria.

[madinmaryland]

137. Thanks! That is absolutely spot on. If a PUBLIC figure says bullshit like that, then he damn well

better expect to have the same shit thrown back at him

He is a "SAD", "PATHETIC, "SMALL FINGERED", "LYING", "DOUBLE CHINNED" fucking "LOSER".

PERIOD.

[Ms. Toad]

247. And "he started it" makes me as a (formerly) double-chinned person feel better

to know that you find double-chins something that is insulting?

[cwydro]

47. Yes.

There's been some pretty disgusting stuff posted here lately.

[kcr]

79. Oh, please n/t

[MarianJack]

42. As a fat guy myself, I agree.

trump, Christie and our owmn Maine governor, the "glorious" Paul LePage, give us a lot of legitimate lines of attack. Fat shaming them brings us to the level of the teabaggers and Trump supporters.

PEACE!

[Paladin]

43. Not as long as trump is hypocritical enough to criticize ANYBODY ELSE'S looks. (nt)

[cwydro]

69. Yeah. "Wah, he did it first!"

Grow the fuck up people.

[Tarc]

46. No

[Sunlei]

49. I noticed Christie lost a lot of weight from the stomach surgery he had 2?? years ago.

didn't he have the gastric band or some surgery like that during the time he was backing trump against the stage full of Republicans wanting to be president? Perhaps trump made him do the surgery for the VP spot.

[47of74]

179. He had the band operation

That's the one where they implant a band that goes around the stomach. Among my friends who had weight loss surgery it's seen as a joke because the weight loss is limited. One of my friends had one implanted about a decade back but later went and had a sleeve gastrectomy done because the band wasn't helping her.

[Sunlei]

217. He looks like he lost about 100lbs but I guess that wasn't enough for the t(R)ump campaign image.

Even though trump likes to be on stage with people who make him look younger or slimmer.

For the long run as VP Christie wasn't good enough 'looking' and to pushie in attitude for a man like trump to stand for very long.

[47of74]

219. He did lose about 85 pounds

That was about three years ago. I think his weight hasn't gone down too much since then.

As for not being VP I think it was more personality than his weight. He was probably a little too independent for fornicate face's tastes.

[Sunlei]

220. You're right, their personalities would clash in dramatic LOUD ways.

trump won one of those "personality" clashes, remember the day he made Christie stand on stage in the 'back stage right' position?

Christie had on his beaten, quiet puppy, sad face

[LovingA2andMI]

50. Both are fat and disgusting individuals....

Who can only be shamed if they had hearts and actually feelings in the first place. Neither do.

[Adrahil]

75. but by using that phrase...

People like me hear "If you are fat, you are disgusting."

What does being fat have to do with it?

[madinmaryland]

140. Ironically, I find models and slender women to be undesirable.

I find women who are what some call "full-figured" to be far more attractive than those that the MSM glorifies as attractive.

Just my two cents worth.

[Chemisse]

88. So fat equals disgusting?

If not, then why mention it?

You are actually proving the point of the OP with a comment like this.

[Amimnoch]

51. I will not fat shame any person

politician, or non politician..
Democrat or Republican..
Friend or opponent..

That doesn't engage in blatant misogyny, homophobia, racism, or ageism themselves. As soon as they do, then they make themselves fair game in my own estimation.

A large person who attacks women or their rights.. their weight is fair game.
A large person who attacks or champions the restriction of rights for members of the GLBT community.. their weight is fair game.
A large person who champions racism, racist causes.. their weight is fair game.
A large person who will disparage, insult, or restrict the elderly, or disabled.. their weight is fair game.

I will not be an enabler of the paradox of tolerance. Tolerance only for those who espouse tolerance.

I apply this equally for each of the categories of tolerance above, not just the overweight. I say this as an old fat white male in an interracial gay marriage.

[Orrex]

57. :thumbsup:

[athena]

120. So if a Black person is a misogynist, you feel free to attack them with racist slurs?

If a woman is a homophobe, you feel free to call her sexist names?
If a gay person is a racist, you feel free to make homophobic attacks against them?

Surely you can see that the whole point of not being a bigot is that bigotry propagates bigotry. When you fat-shame someone, regardless of who it is you are fat shaming, you are sending out a message that being fat is shameful.

I'm sorry, but there is no justification for bigotry, period.

[tallahasseedem]

54. No. Both of them believe they are gifts to society.

It's time the accept who they are.

[athena]

121. They will never accept anything.

People fat-shaming Trump, or anyone, publicly achieves one thing, and one thing only: it propagates the idea that being fat is shameful. And in the end, that hurts fat people. It doesn't hurt Trump, for whom his weight is clearly not a sensitive point.

A narcissist, by the way, will never accept that he is not a gift to society. Read about Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It's fascinating.

[stevenleser]

58. In general I agree. Trump may be an exception because of his constant comments about other people's

appearance.

I can't really get after people attacking his appearance if he is always making nasty comments about other folks' appearances.

I would rather people not make comments about appearance. It is pretty juvenile.

[Honeycombe8]

61. Agree as to those like Trump. No different than calling out personal morality issues....

when the politician has run on "family values." Like David Vitter, who got caught frequenting prostitutes wearing big diapers because of a fetish; Vitter had run on a far right platform stressing family values. (He was re-elected, btw.)

So when Trump slams people for being a fat slob, Miss Piggy, who would vote for that face, "look at her (implying he wouldn't sleep with her)," etc., that makes appearance an issue in his case, since HE makes it such a big deal and is in no position to do so.

[Polly Hennessey]

59. No,

Christie is a lump of evilness. He does not deserve my kindness. Stop equating Christie's fatness with everyone's fatness. Christie has no qualms when insulting us; I have no qualms insulting him.

[Adrahil]

65. PLenty to insult him on...

without implying his mere fatness is worthy of ridicule.

I've been ridiculed my whole life for being fat. I'm fucking SICK of it.

[athena]

122. I am so sorry that you have to put up with that.

I know what it's like because my husband is what is considered "obese".

Please understand that there are people out there who care about what's in your heart and your mind, not the number on the scale. That number on the scale, to some of us, is nothing but a number, no more significant than the number that specifies your height.

[Adrahil]

172. Thank you!

I know what you say is true, and know many such people, but it really matters to hear that. Thanks!

[athena]

174. When you get a chance,

please read this:

https://qz.com/550527/obesity-paradox-scientists-now-think-that-being-overweight-is-sometimes-good-for-your-health/

[Honeycombe8]

60. I agree for some politicians. But I think it's valid in some instances.

When a politician, like Trump, takes an arrogant attitude and even runs others down because of appearance, that makes the politician's appearance an issue. Sort of like "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

This is true of Trump, who has consistently for years attacked mainly women for their appearance, whether celebrities or ordinary citizens.

Christie is arrogant and a bully, as well, but I don't recall him insulting the appearance of others, so I would say that's off base. However, I would regard the beach scene as something a bit different, since he's dressed in a way to show his body while he's in the midst of a scene exposing his corruption. I wouldn't do it, but I can see where it might be different in that situation.

But slamming Trump for being obese and having two double chins is perfectly fine, sine he has made the appearance of people an issue, calling people Miss Piggy, "look at her - come on," "would you vote for that face?," fat slob, etc.

[Adrahil]

67. Here's the issue...

By insulting him for being fat and having double chins, you are saying such things are WORTHY of ridicule, and it is mere politeness that you do not insult others for it. It STILL reinforces the message to people like me that I am worth less to world because I am fat. It further implies that those who DON'T insult me for being fat are doing so out of courtesy and if I trangress in any other way, my intrinsically vile fatness becomes fair game.

That is not acceptable, IMO.

[kcr]

175. But they're not insulting him for being fat. Why is this so hard?

They're insulting him for being a hypocritical jackass. You are simply wrong when you are claiming that those calling out his hypocrisy for attacking people are saying such things are worthy of ridicule. If they thought those things were worthy of ridicule, they wouldn't be calling him out for insulting other people in the first place!

[Adrahil]

185. I don't see that...

When people criticize Christie by suggesting he is beached whale, isee an insult due to his appearance.

If you want to criticize Trump or Christie by pointing out they are both fat, and thus insulting fat people is hypocritical, that's one thing. But when some says they are fat and disgusting... I think that goes beyond pointing out hypocrisy.

[Proud liberal 80]

183. So if Trump called you fat

You wouldn't retort back with a "Dude, you are not one to talk"

When I point out his weight it is because I am saying who the hell is he to put others down for their looks when he looks like that.

As I am sure people could find something wrong with me if I were to go after someone for their looks.

[Adrahil]

186. No, I'd call him an asshole.

I don't consider being fat worthy of ridicule. The "you are too" retort implies that it IS worthy of ridicule, but that he is no position to criticize.

[ehrnst]

62. Plenty to criticize without going there. Misogyny, bigotry and fat shaming

are all very much related.

[nadine_mn]

68. Thank you. Also how many times "fat & disgusting"

Have been used as if the two go together. Glad to know my fellow DUers believe that being fat also makes me disgusting.

Fat jokes aren't ok...because the implication is fat = bad and there are too many of us who already have had enough of that.

I'm obese and they are offensive. It doesn't matter what comments they have made about weight...by making fat jokes, you aren't hurting them...you are hurting everyone else.

Seriously...Christie's policies are less offensive to you than his appearance?

[cwydro]

72. Apparently, there are a few adolescent posters in DU.

We all know who they are.

I'd love to see pictures of these perfect folks.

[Adrahil]

74. Too be honest...

fat shaming is so embedded in our culture, that many folks don't even realize they are doing it. I think few people here in DU would want to actually hurt other DUers. It's just a natural go to because our culture does it all the time. Kind of like jokes in ym generation implying a man is gay. I know people who do that... heck, I've even done it myself. Until I actually considered what I was saying, I didn't even think about it. Look at the jokes we make about Putin forcing Trump to perform homosexual acts.

[cwydro]

76. I've spoken up about those gay jokes.

As have many others here.

But some think it's all good. It makes me sick.

[Chemisse]

96. Well said. n/t

[kcr]

81. I'm not down with fat shaming, but some of the posts on DU are actually calling out hypocricy

And I'm okay with that. It's the intent that matters. I'm sure everyone's line is different, but context and intent do matter. Fat shaming is deliberately attacking a person merely because they are fat. Most of the posts I see on DU are attacking Trump because HE'S the one doing that.

[cyclonefence]

237. +100 nt

[WinkyDink]

84. Mocking the outside has always been a way to convey the corruption of the inside. Chaucer:

A Summoner was with us in that place,
Who had a fiery-red, cherubic face,
For eczema he had; his eyes were narrow
As hot he was, and lecherous, as a sparrow;
With black and scabby brows and scanty beard;
He had a face that little children feared.
There was no mercury, sulphur, or litharge,
No borax, ceruse, tartar, could discharge,
Nor ointment that could cleanse enough, or bite,
To free him of his boils and pimples white,
Nor of the bosses resting on his cheeks.
Well loved he garlic, onions, aye and leeks,
And drinking of strong wine as red as blood.
Then would he talk and shout as madman would.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[HipChick]

85. 'Cos bringing papercuts to a knife fight always works so well...

I lived with a morbidly obese sister for years...I've been out with her when restaurants refused to serve us, because she simply could not fit in a booth. I lived thinking that if anything happened that I would have to take over the care of her children,as I could not stand by and see them go into care. A few years ago, she got a bypass and lost over 200lbs.
Fat-shaming a politician?It's a public job, part of their public life...

[Raster]

86. Thank you for standing up. You are correct.

[PasadenaTrudy]

90. Thank you! It's just so juvenile. Sick of it...n/t

[onecaliberal]

92. He opens himself up to it by commenting on the appearance of others...

[Chemisse]

97. Damn. The Christie thread is just loaded with fatness comments.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029281110

So discouraging.

[Orrex]

111. Those are indeed discouraging, and yet very different

The Christie jokes are simply mean and are unquestionably fat-shaming.

The issue is that he used his power and influence inappropriately to gain exclusive, private, privileged access to a public facility, and he should be condemned for that. His weight doesn't enter into it nor, as others have noted, does he have a particular history for mocking others' weight.

Trump, in very clear contrast, has openly mocked people's appearance and thereby opens himself to equivalent criticism and to being called out for his hypocrisy.

Christie's actions here are well-timed to show the fundamental difference between fat-shaming Christie compared to hypocrisy-shaming Trump.

[femmedem]

195. That thread is what inspired my op.

I was hoping some of the posters there would delete their posts after this thread got so many rec's, but it didn't happen. Some of the people who posted fat-shaming replies there are among my favorite DUers, and I hope they reconsider next time they're about to post something similar in the future.

[cyclonefence]

98. Trump is made fun of for many physical characteristics

hair, skin tone, pooched-up lips, white skin around eyes, etc. I would hope that anyone struggling with her weight--and that includes me--would be able to separate unkind remarks about the bloated *president from unkind remarks made referring to someone who is not in that position. It's kind of insulting, imo, to suggest that something cruel we might say about Trump would be taken by one of us as hurtful--we fat people know we're fat! That's a news flash to some, I know, but it's true. You don't preserve our feelings by refusing to join a conversation about a public figure who is a fat hypocrite.

Are DU men with combovers hurt by comments about Trump's hair?

It doesn't help anyone to tiptoe around what really is a relevant fact about Trump, for fear that someone else will take it the wrong way.

[linuxman]

99. So long as the post is accompanied by a full length body pic of the poster in swim attire,

I don't mind.

[Orrex]

100. I know several competition-grade fitness models who would be happy to do so

They have, in fact, done so already.

[WinkyDink]

196. Sorry, but that's Trump's argument for going after his critics. Politicians HAVE POWER,

and mocking the POWERFUL, no matter the form or format, is A PERK OF THE RULED.

Overweight peasants can call their King FAT.

[LanternWaste]

101. Mocking only policy denies us our pretense of cleverness, excellence, and ethical transcendence.

Without the irrelevance of simplistic and petulant juvenalia, many of us would be unable to express ourselves.

Though we'll of course, allege our reactions as those of the righteous rather than those of the simpleton, and rationalize them as having no bearing on our own character.

Mocking merely policy, words, actions and votes denies us our pretense of cleverness, excellence, and ethical transcendence.

[Orrex]

106. Mocking policy doesn't elicit a response from Trump

Mocking Trump elicits a furious tweetstorm that further demonstrates him to be an unhinged asshole.

[Warren DeMontague]

159. We should defer to the experts

on pretense, of course.

[WinkyDink]

197. As I noted, the brilliant Chaucer would beg to differ. (And who is this "us"?)

See: The Canterbury Tales, Prologue to.

[Fluke a Snooker]

107. Let's be clear: Republicans are not the "opposition." They are the ENEMY.

Enemies are NOT to be coddled. There is never any hypocrisy in "shaming" enemies, even if the identical shaming process would be abhorrent if used against progressives, or non-enemy combatants. Republicans should ALWAYS be ridiculed and resisted AT ALL TIMES.

So femmedem, your conscience is clear.

[Warpy]

108. Dump has fat shamed any woman he doesn't like

Sorry, he's fair game. He's ten times as fat as any woman he's shamed. We're going to let him have it.

Sorry this triggers you. However, this is not a hill you should be willing to die on.

FWIW, I'm fat. I am not offended when someone points out Dump's obesity.

[athena]

114. Two wrongs don't make a right.

If fat-shaming is wrong, it is wrong, period. The fact that Trump fat-shames women despite being fat himself doesn't make fat-shaming Trump OK. I suspect that people fat-shame Trump in the hope that he will understand his own hypocrisy or feel bad about his own weight, but that is never going to happen. Trump has narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), which means he has almost no self-consciousness.

If people want to annoy Trump, they should attack him where it hurts. They should post about how weak Trump is and what a failure he is as president. They should post endlessly about Obama's inauguration crowd size compared to Trump's, and Obama's high popularity compared to Trump's. They should post pictures of Obama being adored by large crowds. Fat-shaming Trump will not hurt Trump, but it is likely to hurt other good people who happen to be fat. Just because you don't mind the fat-shaming of Trump doesn't necessarily mean other fat people don't mind it, either. In the end, fat-shaming anyone propagates the idea that being fat is bad and shameful. And that can only hurt fat people in the long run.

[Warpy]

115. I refuse to get into a snit over fat shaming a fat shamer.

Go find somebody else to lecture.

[athena]

117. Posting an opinion different from yours is not "lecturing".

But thanks for the nastiness.

[Rustyeye77]

118. Winner

[treestar]

124. True. Yet it seems unfair

to let him go on doing it. Which he will. And then respectfully backing off on him.

[athena]

134. Trump's actions are his alone. Emulating his actions normalizes them.

Fat-shaming Trump makes Trump's fat-shaming of others acceptable. Isn't that obvious? If liberals really believed that fat-shaming was a bad thing, they wouldn't do it. We don't, for example, torture prisoners based on whether they are from a country that tortures its prisoners. If something is wrong, it is wrong, period. Just as it is not OK to use racist slurs to attack a black person who happens to be a bigot, it is not OK to fat-shame a fat person who happens to be a bigot.

No one is advocating "respectfully backing off" on Trump. No one. Did you read my post? I pointed out several ways of attacking Trump that would be more likely to hurt Trump than fat-shaming him. There is zero evidence that Trump is conscious of his weight, let alone sensitive about it. There is, on the other hand, plenty of evidence that Trump is sensitive about other things like his inauguration crowd size and the fact that he didn't win the popular vote. Fat-shaming Trump, I'm sorry to say, is just a way for people who are not fat to feel superior to those who are fat. That's the way it is with all forms of bigotry. And I say this as someone whose weight is and has always been in what is considered the "normal" range.

[Orrex]

133. Mocking Trump for his fatness is not fat-shaming; it's hypocrisy-shaming

I have no illusions that Trump will ever understand his own hypocrisy and certainly not because I mocked him for it.

"Trump has narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), which means he has almost no self-consciousness."
Is that a formal diagnosis given after direct clinical review by medical professionals qualified to give that diagnosis? Diagnosis-in-absentia doesn't count except as speculative anecdote. Lacking a formal diagnosis by a medical professional who's had direct diagnostic contact with Trump, you are shaming Trump via the language of mental illness, and you are thereby insulting people who suffer under actual, diagnosed mental illness--including many valued DUers.

It may indeed be that Trump is clinically insane, but that's not relevant; after all, he's certainly fat, but we're told we can't comment on that. Nevertheless, attacking Trump (even via armchair diagnosis) for his perceived mental illness (which would, after all, be beyond his control) is apparently fair game.


Note that I mention this to make a point. I don't care if he's as mad as a hatter. I will mock that ignorant fuckhead by whatever mechanisms are available to me. In mocking him, I am mocking no one else.

[Ms. Toad]

116. So you want to emulate his behavior. When I grow up, mom, I want to act just like the president

Nice.

Have you seen the experiment where an interviewer asks small black children (around 5) which doll is the good dolll and which one is the bad one? (one black doll and one white doll) Overwhelmingly , the children identify the white doll as good and the black doll as bad/ugly.

The pervasive "fat is bad" mantra does the same thing to fat individuals. Perhaps you, like the small minority of black children in the experiment, escaped that emotional link, but far too many do not and uisng fat as an insult perpetuates the harm.

[Warpy]

119. There is that straw man word again, "so."

Don't presume to lecture your elders.

It's far too easy to be off target.

[hamsterjill]

223. I agree. Trump drew first blood.

He's fair game because jerks like him don't understand anything else. It's clear he is self-conscious about his looks and it bugs him when people criticize his looks. If it bugs him, I'm for it.

He's a bully and deserves to be treated as such.

[Warpy]

229. Thank you. Too many of these SYTs don't get that

The only way we're going to get that pig out of office is if he quits and the only thing that will do that is letting him have it, death by a thousand cuts. Eventually he will either be goaded into making enough of a mistake that he'll be pressured to resign before he's hauled out of there in a straight jacket or he'll blow a snot slinging fit and walk out.

And he's got to go.

[SaschaHM]

113. I agree, but folks on DU are going to fight for their right to be assholes vigorously...

What is even the point? Trump/Christie isn't going to see these jokes. You're just making fat jokes because you feel like you have a socially acceptable reason to. You demeaning fat people isn't going to do anything about his hypocrisy.

[treestar]

123. I agree though for the Orange Toxin

turnabout is fair play. Though he is such a sexist, he probably does not think men's bodies should be judged. Just money.

[Ms. Toad]

126. It doesn't matter that he is a vile, small-minded bigot.

Anyone who is fat who "overhears" your fat shaming of Trump instantly knows how you really feel about their appearance, even though you are withholding comments about them out of politeness.

[treestar]

127. I'm overweight too

ever since I hit 40. Before that I was skinny and ate a lot more than I do now.

I guess it depends on the person. For Donald or even Christie, I don't feel hurt myself by it. I guess we are all skinny inside!

[Orrex]

135. That's not true, though

And it's frankly an unfair assumption by the eavesdropper.

The eavesdropper is free to infer whatever they like from what they hear out of context, but that doesn't mean that they're correct.

When I mock Trump's weight, it has literally nothing to do with anyone else, unless they are also billionaire media vultures who happen to occupy the Whitehouse.

We are repeatedly (and quite reasonably) told that a women's comment about sexist men does not require a "not all men" disclaimer, because obviously a statement about one group of men does not automatically apply to all men.

Much the same is true here: mockery of one fat man does not apply to all people who are overweight, especially not when the particular fat man is mocked not for his weight but for his hypocrisy.

[MineralMan]

125. We should do that, but probably won't.

DU, like most places, is pretty diverse in its membership. There will always be someone, or several people, who don't get that such comments are hurtful to people who aren't the subject of the conversation.

It would be a good thing if such things weren't said, but it's unlikely that people will stop saying them. Most people, however, on DU do not do that. A few do. It's good to bring it up, but I wouldn't expect it to stop. DU is just a microcosm of the world.

[tenderfoot]

129. How about GLUTTONY shaming?

Because Christie is a glutton that deserves to be shamed.

[athena]

149. Christie is not going to be ashamed by anything anyone posts here.

If you want to post about what a horrible person Chris Christie is, just Google "Chris Christie vetoes". There are plenty of legitimate ways to attack both Trump and Christie. Fat-shaming them only creates noise that hurts good fat people while creating the impression that there is no legitimate way to attack them.

[tenderfoot]

162. Fuck that fat miserable dirt bag that enjoys making good fat people's lives miserable.

Oh, and have a nice day.

[Hombre74]

131. Why?

So technically you could not call him an idiot because that may offend people that are mentally challenged. Same with stupid. Maybe someone has a stupid friend and now he/she is offended?

I have personally never called a person fat because why would I. I also never mentioned the word fat in combination with Trump. I also never used the word idiot with him because I do not think he is an idiot. He is tons of things I do not like and he is absolutely a dick. But if people want to call him a fat idiot I am fine with that. And I do not see a problem with that.

And your examples make no sense.
- Mocking disabilities is entirely different. It is a disability as in, they lost a leg or some such. Him being fat is him eating too much.
- And the racial slur bit... also entirely different. Not even going to explain that one.
- And the last one, the trans bit. Again, entirely different. She was in the wrong sex her entire life and changed that. Like getting eye surgery and finally you can see again.
- 2nd racism equation. You CANNOT compare someone calling someone else fat vs telling racist jokes.

[Not Ruth]

161. That is an interesting spin

Certainly he has been called mentally ill many many times. Which is a disability. Is it acceptable to say that to someone that is mentally ill?

[Paladin]

142. Once again, demands being made that Democrats be models of decorum....

...while the right-wing continues its vicious, hateful routines.

Fuck that shit. If you're not willing to fight trump and his minions with their own vile weapons, in the gutter where they reside, then get the hell out of the way of those of us who are willing to do so. I'll be back for etiquette lessons after we drive these thugs from power.

[hamsterjill]

224. +1

Well said!

[dalton99a]

248. +1

[MFM008]

143. No

And I'm at least 60 pounds overweight. .....
In my view NONE of the common curtesy or niceties apply to either of them.
It totally permissible to attack them on whatever grounds especially maggot because he fat/ugly shames everyone else.
Feel free to attack me as well.
With those extra pounds my skins pretty thick.

[athena]

148. Would you attack them with racist slurs if they were Black?

If that's wrong, then it's also wrong to attack them with fat-shaming. Weight is not something one can change, which is why diets almost never work. When you fat-shame someone, you are attacking them for something they cannot change. And you are defining one group of people as superior to another by virtue of the genes they were born with.

Note that I have always been in the "normal" weight range. I have done nothing to achieve that. I was born with genes that put me in that range. And, unlike others, I refuse to use that genetic fact to feel superior to or to put down others.

[Hombre74]

154. Uhh...

Weight is not something one can change? What? Diets do work every time if you follow thru (IF!!). If you then eat how you ate before you gain the weight back. Simple. The reason you think that, is that every overweight person either knows they eat too much but won't admit or they have a problem with food addiction. There are a zillion websites with pseudoscience that will support your views and there a thousand scientific websites that support my view. You can choose what you read.

The gene thing is nonsense so I will just ignore that last blurb. Well, the first bit too but I had to write at least a little bit.

And I was so hoping that dems use science vs Trump and his anti-science brigade...

[athena]

169. According to scientific studies, diets almost never work in the long term.

Read the links in the thread I made about this:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029284125

[Hombre74]

180. Yes, I know them

Just like the article you sent before.

It is the same as smoke cessation. You smoked a pack a day or two. And then you cut down. Or quit entirely. You crave it like hell... and the problem with food is, you cannot quit it. You have to eat but you have to just eat less... If you want I can send you studies that shows underreporting of food eaten during diets and then blaming diets don't work (yes, they exist). Not sure if there is a study about people giving up on a diet (that counts as THAT diet did not work) and so forth.

A diet works because it will restrict your intake. You put less in, your storage has to get used up and voila, the diet worked. If you then eat too much again, you will gain weight. Virtually every person I saw that was on a diet did that yoyo spiel. I am sorry, the diet worked but you decided to eat too much again. Not the diets fault...

Oh, and I was overweight in junior high. No bullying or nothing but it did not work with the girls. So I ate less and boom... that was 25ish years ago. Not rocket science.

[MFM008]

168. False equivalency

This is aimed at the maggot in chief and his obsession with everyone else's looks when his are in such bad shape. HIS weight. I don't even care enough about Christie.
No respect. I don't say his name.
How anyone could pull race into this I don't know.

[athena]

170. It's called an analogy.

Racism is something large parts of our society condemn these days. (That is not to say racism is over; it is still alive and well, but a racist slur posted on DU will get hidden.) Fat-shaming, however, is still considered acceptable. Therefore, to get someone who thinks fat-shaming is OK to see that it is not, in fact, OK, it is useful to provide a parallel analogy using racism.

I didn't think this required explanation.

[MFM008]

173. I think

Maggot is fair game.
We will just have to disagree.

[athena]

189. Thanks for being honest.

I don't expect people to change their minds overnight. I just want to provide food for thought. That's all.

[Towlie]

144. Now hold on! None of those analogies apply; take it from someone who decided to lose weight and did.

Of course there's no justification for any of the examples offered in the original post, but there's also no justification for the unwritten implication that being overweight fits right in with those examples.

There's nothing good about being overweight. It's ugly and unhealthy, but it can be lost and it can be controlled. You do an overweight person no favor by implying that his/her excessive weight is just another type of disability for which nothing can be done, and that everyone should feel sympathy for an overweight person as he/she continues to stuff his/her face.

[athena]

147. Just because you were able to lose weight doesn't mean everyone can.

Our society's obsession with what it considers a "healthy" weight is arbitrary. Read "The Obesity Myth". There is no scientific evidence that being "overweight" or "obese" is unhealthy. Indeed, being "underweight" is much more dangerous than being "overweight" or "obese". It is also much more dangerous to have a fluctuating weight than to have a stable weight that is "overweight" or "obese". What counts much more than weight in terms of health is exercise. And yet you don't see anyone shaming anyone for being underweight or not exercising enough.

Moreover, as a psychologist on DU has posted previously, shaming a person is not an effective way to get them to change. If you want someone to change, you treat them with kindness and compassion. You don't attack and shame them.

Fat-shaming others is old-fashioned bigotry, just like racism and sexism. It's a way for "normal"-weight people to feel superior to others by virtue of their weight. I say that as someone who is lucky enough to have been born with genes that put me naturally in what is considered the "normal" range of weight.

Finally, I find it very offensive that you call being overweight "ugly" and suggest that a person who is fat is fat because s/he is "stuffing his/her face". That should not be allowed on DU. Unfortunately, though, alerting your post wouldn't get it hidden because bigotry against the overweight and obese is still something that is considered acceptable, as this thread demonstrates.

[Towlie]

155. On the contrary...

"Moreover, as a psychologist on DU has posted previously, shaming a person is not an effective way to get them to change. If you want someone to change, you treat them with kindness and compassion. You don't attack and shame them."

On the contrary, that was the prime source of my own motivation to get serious about losing weight. Even if people didn't actually come out and say anything, I knew what they must be thinking when they looked at me and it made me feel depressed. Then I decided to do something about it.

And your assertions about scientific findings are ridiculous. Of course being overweight shortens your life! Look around you! You'll see a lot of old people and you'll see a lot of fat people, but you won't see a lot of old fat people.

[athena]

157. How long have you kept off the weight?

If it's not more than five years, you should not be making any claims about how successful you have been in losing weight.

As for your claim that I am making "ridiculous" assertions, you should read this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/05/04/why-diets-dont-actually-work-according-to-a-researcher-who-has-studied-them-for-decades/?utm_term=.6a1a1ac6a0c6

and this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/03/opinion/our-imaginary-weight-problem.html?mcubz=0

and this:

https://qz.com/550527/obesity-paradox-scientists-now-think-that-being-overweight-is-sometimes-good-for-your-health/

Saying somene's arguments are "ridiculous" doesn't make them so. Unlike you, I am providing references for my assertions. Go read them. Then explain what makes them wrong. You will not be able to do it, because you happen to be wrong.

The reason you don't see a lot of old fat people is that people tend to lose weight once they get beyond a certain age. And having started at a higher weight, in fact, puts them in a better position to handle that inevitable weight loss.

[Towlie]

163. No, you have it wrong.

"The reason you don't see a lot of old fat people is that people tend to lose weight once they get beyond a certain age."

No, it isn't that old people tend to be skinny, it's that old skinny people tend to be alive.

[athena]

165. Good job, ignoring 90% of my post, and making a totally unsubstantiated argument.

You didn't even bother to look at the links, did you?

I'm always amused by how difficult people find it to wrap their minds around the fact that they may be wrong about something. Even when given evidence and references, DUers almost invariably respond with a very short post, claiming I am wrong, and ignoring all the points they can't respond to, as if those points were never made.

Good luck with the diet. When you find it impossible to keep off the weight, take a look at the links I posted. They will make you feel a lot better.

ETA: I happen to have a Ph.D. in physics. What you are doing is interpreting a correlation as a causation. Without careful scientific studies, you cannot make a statement like "it isn't that old people tend to be skinny, it's that old skinny people tend to be alive." Scientific studies do not support your conclusion.

[Hombre74]

177. Oh my...

The first article from the WP:

Traci Mann wrote this. A psychologist. I am sure she does a good job with that. And I always thought it was more an addiction thing myself, not just lack of willpower. She described how you crave it more when you diet or the hungry feeling thing. I get that. But then she talks about metabolism slowing down when you diet. It does not. Makes no sense from an evolution standpoint (oh, I need to grab food and hunt a buffalo but oh... let's do that slow cause that is gonna work better). No, it does never slow down until you are so low on energy that organs are shutdown (heart and brain being the last). By that point you will most likely die. That does not happen in a regular diet. So that article, even though it was in WP has no scientific merit.

The NYT article:

Ahh... a classic. So what they did is get a huge amount of just BMI numbers. No illnesses. And that is the biggest issue. If you are in chemo, you will lose weight. That was not even looked at. As this article said, it is rubbish. Clickbait if you will:
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2013/01/02/168437030/research-a-little-extra-fat-may-help-you-live-longer

Obesity paradox...
Also a nice one. Funded by Coca-Cola. Which in itself is not necessarily bad but the main issue was that it was severly sloppy science. Read all the fun details here:
https://www.vox.com/2015/10/20/9572295/coca-cola-obesity-paradox

So, all in all, you posted three pseudoscience articles. It did not surprise me. Also, I am sure you will not change your view. You may not even look at the articles. You do not have to. I just feel better at least I tried

PS The last sentence was a new one. People tend to lose weight when they get old? Since when is that a belief? Just you are have others shared that with you? And being obese protects them from that scary weightloss? Yes, I am convinced you cannot be convinced with science.

[athena]

181. Responses to your comments:

1. She may be a psychologist, but her conclusions are based on scientific experiments.

2. Metabolism slowing down when you diet does make sense from an evolutionary perspective. When you go on a diet, your body thinks it is starving. Evolutionarily, that meant drought conditions. The best way to survive a drought was to reduce one's activity levels and conserve one's energies until drought conditions ended. By the way, making hypothetical arguments based on how you think evolution works is not what is considered "scientific evidence".

3. The fact that one person called the findings "rubbish" does not make them rubbish. You are using the authority argument. In fact, if you had bothered to read the article I posted:
https://qz.com/550527/obesity-paradox-scientists-now-think-that-being-overweight-is-sometimes-good-for-your-health/
you would have learned that the person who called the results "rubbish" was admonished by the editors of Nature, and that later studies supported the findings he called "rubbish".

4. The studies I posted are not funded by Coca Cola. The vast majority of the studies on diet are funded by the diet industry, as demonstrated by Paul Campos in "The Obesity Myth".

5. When I said that people tend to lose weight when they get old, I was not making a scientific statement but rather providing another way to interpret Towlie's observation that older people tend to be thin. In my experience, people who are overweight tend to get thinner as they get older beyond a certain age. That is anecdotal, but it is no weaker than the baseless argument that was made that older people are thinner because fat people die young. If being overweight killed people young, this would have been easily proven by scientists. In fact, there is no evidence that being overweight kills people. I have posted links that show the opposite.

By the way, I happen to have a Ph.D. in physics and spent years doing cutting-edge research at international labs. I also happen to be someone who changes my mind based on scientific evidence and/or convincing arguments. But of course, despite knowing nothing about me, you think you are entitled to attack me by saying I "cannot be convinced with science". In fact, whenever a person resorts to personal attacks, they demonstrate that they cannot reason in a rational and civil manner.

[Hombre74]

184. Science...

1. But by her saying there was starvation mode (or sever slow down) meant to me she may be a scientist but certainly not in that field. She looked into the psychology of dieting (her field!) and I absolutely believe in the first two bits. But then shen moseyd over to metablism which she shouldn;t have.

2. True, me giving a nice story to it does not mean it was scientific. I was just trying to explain why she is wrong there. And apparently, you believe the same thing. You have something in common. There is an nice article with sources on wiki (spoiler, drought was not an issue for early humans because they did not farm... no idea why drought was even brought up in here?)
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Starvation_response

3. A scientist did, not some random person on the street. But ok, let's call this a hypothesis. All pro and con arguments are nicely packaged in a wiki article : https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Obesity_paradox

4. That particular one was. But I cannot find a source, just articles without a source. And diet companies funding the vast majority of research, I am sure you have sources? Especially for the non-US ones. EU does more research on obesity than the US. And they are kinda strict with doing undercover funding...

5. Ok, so anecdotal. About the age and losing weight magically. But the other bits... There is no scientific proof? How about from WHO? June 2016.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs311/en/
Or from the US (2014 though)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3953803/

See, I am surprised you have a Ph.D. I give you that. I would not call that an attack per se. I am sure I said I doubt you can or I think you cannot. I did not see it coming as you posted pseudoscience before. I think I have reasoned in a rational and civil manner by providing links and rebuttals. I just doubted you would even read the articles.

[hack89]

192. Drought was a huge issue for hunter gathers

because they were ranging large distances gathering plants and roots. Don't you think the availability of plants and roots would be affected by drought?

[uppityperson]

193. Herbivores and omnivores are affected by droughts. Fewer of them affects carnivores. Drought affects

all animals.

[hack89]

201. And early hominids were not carnivores. Nt

[Hombre74]

167. uhhh

Society's obsession? Oh my... society has an obsession with vacation, nice houses, nice cars, etc. if you use that argument. Everybody wants a nice vacation, house and so forth. And everybody wants a healthy weight. Would you call that obsession as well?

"no scientific evidence that being "overweight" or "obese" is unhealthy"
Do you want to ignore the countless research papers from the US, Canada, Europe? Like, every single one the last 10 years or so? What is wrong with you?

" It is also much more dangerous to have a fluctuating weight than to have a stable weight that is "overweight" or "obese"
Who told you that? Any source for that? Never heard it anywhere and most certainly never a study about it (like, a real one...)

"What counts much more than weight in terms of health is exercise."
Absolutely not true. It does count as well but that it counts more is wishful thinking by overweight people. Feel free to send me a pm with a source.

"And yet you don't see anyone shaming anyone for being underweight or not exercising enough."
Oh I do... the one or two times in my life I have seen a near-death thin person, I had a hard time not to look... others looked of course. And I had a friend in high school that was eathing an apple a day or something like that and we shamed her like you would not believe. She eventually started to eat normal after a year or so.

"Fat-shaming others is old-fashioned bigotry, just like racism and sexism"
That is your belief. Fine. I won't be able to change that.

" It's a way for "normal"-weight people to feel superior"
I hear that every time in discussions like that. Along that fat people are of less value. Who told you this? Never in a day do I walk around, glance at someone and thinks, hey, I am taller. I must be superior. Or, hey, he is far, again superior. Nonsense.

"who is lucky enough to have been born with genes "
Ah, the genes thing. I will ignore it again. Still is nonsense.

"call being overweight "ugly"
And that is why I never say that to a far person. I will also not tell a person I perceive as being not attractive, that they are not attractive. But let's face it. Fat is unattractive. But I have the tact of not saying it to a person.

"still something that is considered acceptable"
Yes, just like telling someone that their cigarettes will kill them or an alcoholic that they should get help. The list is endless where that is acceptable. Just like with an obese person. I would however not walk up to a person in public and blast him about smoking.

[Towlie]

187. Here's the scoop on fluctuating weight:

Athena wrote:

"It is also much more dangerous to have a fluctuating weight than to have a stable weight that is 'overweight' or 'obese'"

No. It appears that losing weight and keeping it off is the healthiest thing an overweight person can do, followed by "Weight cycling" or "yo-yo dieting", which may introduce some ill effects but is still better than not losing weight at all, followed by not losing weight and simply staying overweight, which is the worst choice.

The main lesson for me was that there's a difference between weight loss and weight watching.

Weight loss is a process that has a beginning and an end. You plan how you're going to achieve weight loss and you stick to your plan until you reach your proper weight. I found that it's better to not worry about the arithmetic of how many pounds you've lost, but to concentrate on higher mathematics - the derivative (rate of change with respect to time) of your weight loss and how long it'll take to reach your planned weight at the rate you're going. Don't settle for losing some impressive-sounding number of pounds if you still weigh more than you should. You're not done yet!

Weight watching, on the other hand, never ends. It requires a total revision of the way you live and it's something you must commit to for the rest of your life, else you'll wind up in the "yo-yo dieting" category, which is synonymous with failure. You need to keep track of your weight and establish total control over it, and be able to honestly boast that you weigh what you want to weigh. The worst thing I'd want to do is reinforce the myth that weight loss is never permanent, and I don't intend to do that.

That's the philosophy that has worked for me for the last five years, and I guess I should thank Athena for her arrogant challenges to me because they'll help reinforce my determination and resolve.

[Hombre74]

150. Yup

That's what I meant to say.

And that is something that bothers with some Democrats (and I have been a member since I registered to vote for the first time and I will always be a liberal). My biggest issue with political correctness is that it is almost a fight slogan for Trump but I nod after I turn out the lights so to speak.

You shouldn't say fat because that is offensive, you shoulnd't say overweight because it implies there is a correct and not correct weight, you shouldn't say etc.... And don't get me started on non-binary gender shenanigans. I am pro gay, lesbian, trans, whatever you need/want to be, be that. But I am not calling someone them/they/there... just no. When I say it like this I feel like a Trump voter though

[JHan]

160. When you single out a physical feature of a person and use that feature...

to make moral judgments about them it is wrong.

Trump is terrible because he's a hypocritical piece of shit, not because he's fat. That's the distinction people are trying to make.

Winston Churchill was a fat dude, it would have been mighty stupid if that was the first qualifier against the man being a Prime Minister Same with Taft and other Presidents we've had.

However what some don't get is that Trump invites this criticism because he of all people connects physicality with a person's self worth as a human being. Other examples: He insults other people's intelligence ( when he's fucking stupid) he insults their looks ( when he looks dreadful, he would also look dreadful skinny) and he insults their clothing and appearance ( when his suits, his fake tan and his stupid hair are ridiculous).

[Adrahil]

153. It's ugly and unhealthy,

No offense, but GTFO. That kind of rhetoric has lead to millions of people engaging in self-hatred and unhealthy behavior.

We should emphasize healthy habits... eating well and being active. What our bodies look like when we are doing that should not enter the question.

Most health issues associated with being fat are addressed by bahavioral changes, not actual weight change.

[HopeAgain]

164. I've never been heavy...

But I suffer from a syndrome called "empathy" and find all the fat shaming to be very sad.

[nolabear]

145. Thank you. It's extraordinarily painful to read.

It's astounding how acceptable this form of abuse is, and how many lives it does great harm.

[Hekate]

152. You mean Christie and Trump? Ummmm, let me think about it....

I'll get back to you

[Initech]

156. Can we still make fun of them for being colossal douchebag?

[Warren DeMontague]

158. Er... Christie wants to use "unhealthy habits" as an excuse to put pot smokers in prison.

So sorry, fuck him and his fat hypocritical ass.

[Proud liberal 80]

182. I think it is ok to go after Trump for his weight

Because it highlights his hypocrisy and vanity. He fat shames others and talks about their looks. So when people talk about his weight, it's like like a "you are not the one to talk about others because look at you" retort,

[Willie Pep]

188. It is better to attack politicians on policy grounds.

Attacks based on appearance seem pointless and makes us look hypocritical after defending against Republicans who called Hillary Clinton "Cankles" and called Michelle Obama "the Wookie."

I can understand the hatred that some might have for Republican politicians. I was talking to a liberal guy from New Jersey over the weekend and he talked about how much he hated "fat a**" Chris Christie. But would Christie be a less repugnant politician if he was thin or muscular? Was George W. Bush less awful because he was physically fit and liked to run?

[Vinca]

215. Unfortunately, when they go low and we go high, they go to the White House.

[Skittles]

190. I have never fat-shamed, I never will

people who do that are in my opinion mental midgets who cannot stick to the REAL issues

[BuddhaGirl]

233. +1

And the justifications for fat-shaming Trump and Chris Christie are just sad. "Trump does it too!" so what? Does one have to sink to his level??

Attacking them for being fat just perpetuates fat-shaming.

[Sabrinao]

191. I'm sorry but

He deserves whatever disrespect that comes his way.

[femmedem]

199. I respect a dead grain moth in my pantry more than I respect Trump.

But decent, nice overweight people hear Trump or Christie (it was really the Christie thread that got me started on this) being called fat and disgusting, and it's hurtful to many of them to hear fat tossed around as an insult.

I'm not overweight, but I'm of Jewish heritage. if I heard an anti-Semite calling someone else a kike, I'd feel insulted or hurt or angry, even though the insult wasn't directed at me. It really wouldn't matter if the other Jewish person deserved to be insulted.

[MadDAsHell]

194. Unfirtunately this is the MO of a lot of DUers...

Something is off limits,shameful and offensive until it presents a useful political purpose for them...then they're all about it.

Not a good look.

[WinkyDink]

200. "A lot of DUers"?? Oh, RILLY?

[WinkyDink]

198. How about "hair-shaming"? "Small-hands-shaming"? You get my drift.

[femmedem]

203. I have no problem with hair-shaming the ridiculous way Trump tries to hide his bald spot.

Because that is about his narcissism.

I would have a problem with shaming someone for back hair or for being bald. I knew a guy who was so ashamed of his back hair that he wouldn't go shirtless unless he shaved it.

[WinkyDink]

216. My point wasn't really about hair, per se (though I am balding); it was about the entire

hypocrisy surrounding what is "allowable."

Christie ain't fat because of some endocrine disorder. He's fat because he chooses to eat in excess.

[Generic Brad]

204. It is a cheap shot, for sure

I would much rather focus on his freakishly tiny hands.

[trueblue2007]

205. NO we can't.

[Gore1FL]

210. I am glad this thread was posted.

Trump has such a variety of significant flaws that affect and impact us all. With so many real things to criticize, it seems pointless to waste jabs on things like weight, age, or even his orange body paint.

[LeftInTX]

211. I honestly don't think Trump is all that fat

He's overweight, but so are a bunch of people.

I think alot of people on DU think he is going to drop dead of a heart attack because he has a poor diet and doesn't exercise. I don't think that is going to happen in the near future. Taft was obese and lived until 72. This was before Lipitor, BP medicine, cardiac bypass surgery, angiocaths etc etc. Dick Cheney is still around.

I don't know what Trump's real eating habits are. Sure there are rumors, but no one knows what he really eats in private. His exercise habits are more obvious. I think he is a "strange person" in that he doesn't seem to enjoy nature, have pets, relaxation and other things that normal people do.

I will make fun of his fake tan and hair until my dying day!!

[barbtries]

212. thank you

I am fat and it does jump out at me that fat is still okay to disparage, make fun of, and look down on.

[TrollBuster9090]

213. Agreed. It makes our lofty ideals about an inclusive society look hypocritical.

Not to mention the fact that it gives the right ammunition to PROVE we're hypocrites. (Which is an infringement of THEIR copyright.)

[KingCharlemagne]

222. So we're not allowed to say that Christie is the second blimp to crash in New Jersey? :) - nt

[hamsterjill]

226. If a post or thread is offensive to you,

Take advantage of the ignore function on DU. Or the trash thread function.

Not every poster on DU has the same sensitivities. We are all individuals; all different; all unique.

While we all should endeavor to be better, more polite and more sensitive, some would have us reach a threshold that is simply not attainable. So, rather than try to make everyone post only that which might never upset someone or anyone, I strongly suggest that you be proactive about using DU functions available.

[emulatorloo]

227. Agreed. Add "small penis" shaming to the list as well.

There is a lot of "size anxiety" among young men these days. There are parts of popular culture that falsely equate penis size with the measure of what it means to be a man. There is no doubt a lot of psychological damage being inflicted on young men with all these glib 'jokes'

Trump could have some kind of outlier porno dick and he still would be a poor excuse for a man.

So please let's drop all of this physical shaming and sexual-preference shaming. That's not who we are.

[Towlie]

236. Alert! Alert! Fatshaming violation in Tuesday Toon Roundup by n2doc!

Go get em, femmedem!

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029285651

[FreeState]

239. Ho about no fat shaming regardless of who it is? n/t