OK, now I have to vent about my libertarian friend.

[Coventina]

Yes: I pretty much know what will be the replies here.

Why are you friends with a libertarian, etc.?

I've known this guy for 30 years now. We were co-workers once upon a time. Even though I was a Democratic Socialist and he was a libertarian (he insists on the small "l&quot we had a lot of interests in common, and, he was really funny and a good cube-mate.

We've been through a lot in the three decades we've known each other. He's had some really severe life-blows: a messy, prolonged divorce, a car accident that killed his daughter and nearly killed him, leukemia, (which forced him to retire early and go on SSDI), the subsequent loss of his house, forcing him to move in with an ex-girlfriend, diabetes, the list goes on and on.

I have helped him out, as both he and the roommate have very severe health problems and are surviving on gov't assistance.

Last week he sent out a desperate appeal for $$ because they simply didn't have the funds to survive until their next checks from social security or his private disability pension.

Imagine my surprise when I read his daily blog this morning to learn the roommate just bought an Amazon Echo Dot for $50!!

I don't want to be one of "those" folks to disparage poor folks for "luxuries" but I'm finding this really hard to swallow. He begged me for $100 to survive for the next two weeks, for both himself, her, and the animals they have. I didn't think twice about it. But a $50 toy? Really?

Am I being a bad friend for feeling this way?
I just have a little hard time understanding how they can be that desperate, and yet just buy something like that.

[jehop61]

1. I wonder

how someone can be totally dependent on govt. assistance and be a libertarian? But that aside, ask him. You've known him a long time and helped him. Perhaps the voice assistance is necessary with his disabilities? At least your question will get him aware of your concerns.

[Coventina]

5. I have no idea how he reconciles it in his own brain.

It's never bothered me personally, as I think he SHOULD use the benefits that he qualifies for.

However, it does get a bit tiresome listening (actually reading his blog) to his rants about how government is evil and there should be no social safety net. The hypocrisy is disappointing, coming from a friend.

I am thinking of asking about this purchase. I'm just not quite sure how to phrase it.
I've tried really hard not to sound judgmental about his choices. And, this was HER purchase, after all, not his.
But, he made the appeal to me for the both of them (and their pets). That's what kind of bugs me about it.
Am I supporting HER, so that she can use her own money to buy toys?

[phylny]

2. You are not a bad friend, nor is your reaction unusual.

My experience working with people in poverty is that some of them lack the ability to plan for the future and to manage money well. NOT ALL PEOPLE, but some I have worked with. At times, there is little self-control or delayed gratification. They don't have enough money to fix the floor of their mobile home, but they buy a new rifle out of hunting season. Their cellphone is out of minutes, leaving their family vulnerable because they can't call emergency services, but they buy cigarettes and beer. They have little money for food, but they go out for fast food three or four times a week when they could buy twice as much food at the grocery store for the money.

Don't take it personally. Only give what you can, when you can, and don't feel badly if you can't give any more.

[Canoe52]

3. You feel what you feel, it's what you do with those feelings is the hard part.

[JoeStuckInOH]

4. Just remember that next time he asks for $... and decline the request

Or ask to borrow $ from him in a month or two and spend it on a gift for yourself.

If you like the guy and he's a friend, I'd ignore any confrontations.

[Caliman73]

6. We are all full of little hypocrisies.

It is easy to get caught up in the details of, "he rails about the government but then he is on disability" and "he's broke and asking for money but then buys a 'luxury' item".

Sometimes those things that we see as luxuries (the candy bought with food stamps, or the steak) are things that keep us human, then psychologically get us through the day or a rough time.

This will probably draw some ire, but liberals are better than kicking people when they are down. We just are because we try to understand the diversity, the oddity, and that absurdity of human behavior.

My suggestion is to let it go. Let them have their Echo Dot and think that you may have helped them from falling deeper into the hole of desperation.

Our (the liberal/progressive) message is superior enough that we do not need to resort to personal shaming and blaming.

Just my 2 cents.

[demmiblue]

9. I agree with this:

"Sometimes those things that we see as luxuries (the candy bought with food stamps, or the steak) are things that keep us human, then psychologically get us through the day or a rough time."

"My suggestion is to let it go. Let them have their Echo Dot and think that you may have helped them from falling deeper into the hole of desperation."

[marked50]

24. This is a quality response

[lostinhere]

25. Agree

It may be just a bit 'retail therapy' or it may be the catalyst for a fight, since she is an ex-girlfriend. Let sleeping dogs lie and don't get caught up in a fight and lose a friend.

[BlueState]

26. Nicely said

I think most of the time it's better to ask, do I live up to the principles that I believe in (i.e. helping the friend without judging) than does the other guy live up to his.

[lunasun]

7. No not at all. Just ignore the requests and stay friends. Tell them it's not in your budget

Suggest they also get a budget so they can see where the money is going .
They may be taking advantage of your liberal generousity and dissing it at the same time.
You said they already do that regarding SS and government help set up for all disabled in a blog
She may using his friends to get money for the newest fidgets she wants. That's half the donation that you gave. I assume every time you help them there is no paying back so no responsibility on what it buys
It also seems you have helped them out out before so it's not like you are being hard hearted
just sensible with your donations . If you feel guilty give to a food bank or a center set up to help with disabilities . You can tell them you are diversifying your charity and they are not the only ones you know in need if they protest. Give to a dem candidate who can help lift all the disabled and disadvantaged up. Most libertarian types should understand your stance and freedom to do what you want
When it starts to anguish you it's not a good thing

[lib-ruhl]

8. Don't sweat the small stuff over $50

It sounds like you're both longtime good friends and stirring the pot could cause hard feelings. Losing a good friend over $50 is not worth it.Try not to be condescending if you feel you must say something . Please remember good friends are hard to come by... hope this helped....

[haele]

10. Sounds like the roommate bought the Dot. Your friend probably had nothing to do with the purchase.

If you're more concerned about wasteful spending of your money (and I'm very familiar with that, with the clueless parents of our grandkids not being able to figure out how to pay basic bills or to plan to provide for themselves and their own kids on a monthly basis), then if you feel the need to help, instead of giving money, offer to go over a shopping list with them and pay for a week's groceries and household sundries.

The reality about "loaning" money to family or friends is that once that money is given, you need to consider it gone - on edit - whether they pay it back or not. If they pay it back, that's just icing on the cake.
It's no longer yours to control. You hope they spend it on what they claim to need, but that's about it. If you can feel let down or burned by giving someone money and they don't use your gift the way you feel they should, then don't lend money.

Now, as a partial excuse for purchasing what might seem like a "non-essential", a $50 Dot is a really good price for a good quality, low wattage online radio/playlist player and internet portal combination (even if it is only really good for accessing Amazon products) and it can also give weather, news, and traffic updates, so it's not totally a toy.
A Dot also uses less electricity for those like my bi-polar spouse who actually seems to need constant music in the background as a "focus filter" to be able to read, study and to get a good night's sleep. Since he got one, he seems to be able to balance his moods and focus better, and he doesn't keep getting up in the middle of the night.
Of course, I have to hear it too, but after 6 years at sea, I can pretty much tune anything out once I've identified it as "normal" background noise.
So in a way, a "Dot" might actually be a bit like purchasing a microwave. You don't need a microwave, but it has it's uses and can help one get through life a bit more quickly and easily.

Haele

[Coventina]

11. A hearty thank-you to all who replied!!

Thanks for:

1) Letting me know the Dot has some real use and can be of real help. I was reacting from a place of ignorance. I thought it was only a way of ordering more stuff from Amazon, and accessing more (paid) content provided by Amazon (IOW: Just a gateway to buy more STUFF).

2) Helping me keep my perspective. I know it's not a horrible thing to have done, again, I was reacting out of a sense of frustration.

3) Being kind toward my feelings.

Y'all are good people.

[OriginalGeek]

12. "Y'all are good people."

and never forget that you are too.

[Egnever]

13. Well that was judgemental as fuck

A toy? You do realize you can use it to buy things from Amazon as well as do many other things. Often you can get things cheaper on Amazon than locally.

Maybe it is a toy I have no way of knowing but maybe it is a tool that will help them survive.

As far as your friend being a libertarian. Despite the constant BS on this site advising cutting every one except Dems from your life ..well I will just say anyone that advises that is an idiot.

[Coventina]

14. *sigh* please see my post #11.

TY

[Egnever]

16. Saw it after posting

My apologies for being harsh. It struck me as a why do those poor people have iPhones kind of posts.

That stuff makes me see red.

Dots can absolutely be very useful there are thousands of skills for them now.

That said sometimes in the depths of despair sometimes you just need a toy to feel human.

He is your friend of 30 years. Throwing that away over political disagreements would be ridiculous in my opinion.

I know several people that in day to day life are the sweetest people you would ever want to meet but they get all their news from Fox. So they hold some really ignorant political views. It certainly makes me sad when I try to discuss these things with them since they hold those beliefs to be truthful but it does not change the fact that in life outside the political realm these people are warm caring people. If you never talked politics you would think they were "bleeding heart liberals"

Anyway sorry for jumping down your throat.

[Coventina]

17. Thanks. And yes, I do hate that attitude as well.

Our society is totally effed up in that it actually makes more SENSE and is more achievable for people in financial straits to buy "luxuries" than basics like decent housing, healthcare, food, transportation, etc.

I'm extremely tech ignorant (I don't have a smart phone, and I only have high-speed internet at work), so I was operating out of ignorance which I fully admit.

I can see now that a Dot can be of help to them, as their physical disabilities are beyond question.

I was also venting from a place of frustration from reading rant after rant on his blog about leeches who live off of others, while knowing full well (I don't know how many of his readers do) that he himself is one of the "takers" that he rants about.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me.

[Warren DeMontague]

15. I call myself a small-l libertarian. So sue me. I'm also a registered big-D Democrat.

I think consenting adults should be free to do as they damn well choose in running their own lives, controlling their own bodies, and managing their own bloodstreams and nervous systems, as long as they aren't harming or endangering anyone else.

I think the terminally ill should be able to choose a pain-fee end of life exit on their own terms, regardless of what "God" or the state says.

I oppose censorship of what consenting adults choose to watch on cable tv, listen to on the stereo, or read/view on the internet, as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult.

I support full LGBT equality and reproductive choice.

These are *all* small-l libertarian viewpoints, as far as I'm concerned. (Remember, the alternative to small-l libertarianism is small-a authoritarianism, and very few people are willing to cop to that, even when they have control fetishes)

I've never bought an echo dot, though. Seems kind of pointless.

Seems to me the real issue here is your friend(s) asking for assistance, and then spending the money on what you consider frivolous items. Not whatever labels (if he makes a point of mentioning the small "l", it's not necessarily indicating his voting habits, right?) the dude self-applies to his philosophical outlook.

[ProfessorGAC]

20. Good Post Warren

The big L libertarians turned me off in around 1996 when all but one candidate for their presidential nomination railed about abortion during their debate. (Might have been 2000, but i watched the debate on CSPAN.)

All i could think was "How the heck is that a libertarian position?" All but one of them sounded like a Talibornagain who just wanted to smoke dope and not pay taxes to use the roads they drive on.

[Warren DeMontague]

23. Yeah, I had a job once that involved a minor bit of ID checking

I remember getting into it once with one of these "Sovereign Citizens" yarblockos who had a "drivers license" he clearly printed at home on a dot matrix printer.

Um, sorry, that's not a driver's license.


The OP didn't make it clear in the first post, but apparently the person in question does some blogging about "leeches", etc... which provides a bit more context to the label usage and implied hypocrisy.

[Lee-Lee]

18. Your reaction is the same as the people judging a good stamp user with an iPhone

Your judging based on your biases without any deep understanding of the circumstances or anything else around it.

[Warren DeMontague]

19. Elsewhere in the thread they say the person blogs about "leeches", so I'd say hypocrisy is an issue

especially if they themselves are on gov't assistance, as Ayn Rand was at the end of her life.

[Adrahil]

22. Yeah, I'll sometimes judge....

2 months ago she begged me for $300 for he step daughter's athletic fees. 2 weeks ago she posted a pic of her brand new Harley Davidson....

[MiddleClass]

21. Maybe she is a spend thrift, and he is the one keeping the roof over their head

Maybe she is impulsive, and screwed him over with the bills, by purchasing it.

Or maybe she got a gift certificate for her birthday. 6 months ago?

I am sure the electric company will not take a 50 dollar gift certificate?

Trust your friend, just keep your calm and your eyes + ears open.

Cut them some slack, times must be tough.

Maybe somebody gave him a certificate? You never know

[mcar]

27. He's on SSDI but he's a libertarian?

No, he's a hypocrite. I'm sorry for his losses but why not bring up his spending since he's asking you for $$$?

[Coventina]

30. Yes, the hypocisy of a friend is depressing and disturbing.

But, I'm letting go of fretting over the use of the money I give to him.

[mcar]

32. You are wise to let it go

[Vinca]

28. I don't care who buys a gadget, but I'm confused about your friend's libertarianism.

Isn't it kind of against his beliefs to accept SSDI? I'm not saying he doesn't need it or shouldn't have it, just wondering how he justifies it in his head. My neighbors are libertarians and they'd just as soon you die if you can't afford to pay your own way.

[Coventina]

29. Believe me, I'm confused by it as well.

And, I'm sorry about this thread as well.

I shouldn't have come here to vent.

I was just frustrated that he appealed to me for money for food for himself, his roommate, and their pets, and then to find out that the roommate had enough $$ to buy something I thought (at the time) was just a toy. (I see now that I was wrong).

He constantly rails about oppressive taxation to support "takers," yet he's willing to take my money (which, historically I've been happy to give), in order for his roommate to have what I perceived to be a luxury. And yes, he has mentioned that it "sickens" him to accept SSDI, but accept and use it he does.

[louis-t]

31. Most libertarians are phonies.

They really believe that free market bullshit until it affects them. I know a guy that really believes that if a company sells you a product that kills 3,000 people, the company will simply go out of business and voila! Problem solved. The ones I have known are the worst offenders when it comes to "as long as it doesn't happen to me".