If it's out of bounds to keep attacking Hillary, it's out of bounds to keep attacking Bernie.

[Ken Burch]

Both of them have done good things and bad things. Both deserve respect and both are fallible.

But The future isn't about either of them as individuals-and we can't ever get it together and win the future if anybody is still perpetuating the notion of a rivalry between them OR between their supporters.

From now on, let's just be Dems and progressives and let's work on the assumption that all of US agree on the big point-that we need to fight for social justice AND economic injustice(i.e., against institutional repression AND against corporate dominance).

Past elections no longer matter. The common ground we can find if we will only reach out to each other is what matters.

We can build a massive movement for transformation in this country, and we MUST do that if we are to survive.

The only way to build that movement is dialog and a willingness to actually listen to each other.

And the only people any of us should be treating as the enemy is Trump.

Let's unite against him and unite with as many people of good will and progressive intent as possible.

[Skidmore]

1. Just let it rest.

Not interested in endless affirmations of personality. Perhaps a focus on ideas instead might get you where you claim to wantvto be.

[Warpy]

29. If you can't say anything nice about primary candidates

then take it to Discussionist. That's why it's there.

Case closed.

[Skidmore]

60. No desire to go to that

cesspit. No desire to engage in endless arguing over personalities. We need to look toward getting a legislature together based o a forward looking agenda by next year, protecting the vulnerable as best we can in the meantime, and making sure the truth about the Trump administration be exposed long before 2020. Getting realistic is a good place o begin and moving from there.

[Gothmog]

196. Please take it to the Discussionist

This would be fun

[Ken Burch]

118. That's my point, exactly.

Let it rest by letting all the attacks on BOTH of them rest.

[pirateshipdude]

120. Then Sanders has got to quit insulting us. Why do you consistently leave that part of the

equation out of these many OP's? I really do not get how you consistently ignore that tidbit while making your statement.

"Let it rest by letting all the attacks on BOTH of them rest."

[Ken Burch]

123. Neither Sanders nor Hillary is the point. Can't we just be past both of them as personalities?

What matters is US...and to win, we have to unite everybody who backed BOTH of them in 2016, plus as many people as possible who voted for neither.

We can't win if the supporters of either are anathemized...and the whole point of attacking Bernie, in particular, is to make his supporters and what they care about unwelcome in this party.

[pirateshipdude]

127. I know you have been told this a number of times, but I will repeat it again in case you truly

do not understand it.

It is about Sanders when Sanders is in TODAY'S news, doing something TODAY, attacking the Democratic Party or the party leadership TODAY.

If Sanders was not forefront, in front of the cameras causing problems for the Democrats, then we would not be calling him out. You started the thread about Sanders and Clinton and then tell us it is not about the two.

[LiberalLovinLug]

172. HE IS NOT ATTACKING THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY

The GOP is attacking the Democratic Party


Trump is attacking the Democratic Party


Fox News is attacking the Democratic Party


Rush Limpballs is attacking the Democratic Party


Brietbart is attacking the Democratic Party


Hate Radio is attacking the Democratic Party


We have so much work to do, why do some seem hellbent on creating a wind mill to fight also? Ask yourself, if Bernie is "attacking" the Democratic Party, why are so many of them, including top respected Democrats, working WITH him to defeat Donald Trump? Why does he get support from Democrats both in Washington, around the country, and on DU?

It's called constructive criticism. Its what happens when a party goes through such a loss. Its admitting that this election should NEVER have been this close in the first place. Its about re-branding, re-building, listening to all voices. Yes that even includes listening to the progressive wing of the party like Warren and allies like Sanders because shutting them out has not worked out so well.

Start appreciating another ally in our fight instead of creating yet another "ATTACKER".

As Kamala Harris tweeted after Bernies endorsement of Hillary:

Link to tweet

It is ridiculous that this fighting the primaries has been allowed to continue on DU, despite the written rules. It is counter productive.

It does not mean we cannot bring up and be critical of side issues that each of Sanders and the progressive wing represent, or issues that the Clinton third way wing is responsible for. That there is room for disagreement on how or how soon we achieve a more egalitarian society, but there can be no moving forward or finding the best path if we cannot listen, yes even listen to criticism (not attacks) and when we hear it, not immediately start running around like the snowflakes we are always being accused of being.

[pirateshipdude]

173. Both parties are the same. The Democratic Party does nothing for middle class.

We need to put wedge issues to the side.

Yes, I feel he is attacking the Democratic party in nontruths. You obviously feel otherwise.

I think those three alone are attacks, on the Democratic party, our leaders, our base.

[LiberalLovinLug]

177. Please source these inflamatory statements

Or don't post them.

If there is no room for improvement with the Democratic party in regards to appealing to the middle class, then why is even Chuck - establishment - Schumer talking about finding a new way to win them over? That he is willing to listen?


Schumer: new Democratic 'agenda' will 'resonate with the middle class'

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/25/schumer-agenda-middle-class-democrats-congress-voters

[pirateshipdude]

179. If you are honestly stating you have never heard Sanders state this, then why should I bother.

[LiberalLovinLug]

181. Uh...that would be the one reason you should bother to I'd suspect

And not just for my sake but for other readers.

[pirateshipdude]

189. Google, Sanders: Both parties are the same. You want the info, it is there.

You do not care about info, or already well aware, since it is front and center, then it is merely about wasting my time, jumping thru hoops to only have the same conversation tomorrow. Which is the point, do not fight the Primaries. That Ken Burch does every three or four or five days.

[LiberalLovinLug]

193. OK, I indulged you

So the "both parties are the same" is from some Reddit poster.

Another link is to a story that includes a quote by him that many voters see both parties as the same in their treatment of the middle class. That that is one reason why many stay home. You may not agree. But if Sanders cared nothing for the Democratic party, then why would he be so concerned about the public's perception of it? (whether you agree with that perception or not)

[pirateshipdude]

197. I am not going to be sucked into fighting the primary and getting hides. The info is there.

I am comfortable and confident in what I stated are facts and easily proved out.

[LiberalLovinLug]

202. Good. That is the whole point of the OP

[pirateshipdude]

203. Then it failed miserably as I and many others have pointed out to Ken Burch. Eom

[LiberalLovinLug]

222. It works for me to stop fighting the primaries

Its all your choice if you want to ignore please for party unity.

But it is a little sad.

[Demsrule86]

183. Here are some sources. I could have done pages actually but try google.

"The Vermont senator added that he believes Democrats have lost touch with the needs of everyday Americans."

http://www.npr.org/2017/01/06/508385203/bernie-sanders-says-trump-won-because-democrats-are-out-of-touch


“The current model and the current strategy of the Democratic party is an absolute failure,” Sanders said.

“The Democratic party needs fundamental change. What it needs is to open up its doors to working people, and young people, and older people who are prepared to fight for social and economic justice."

https://www.quora.com/Bernie-Sanders-says-Democrats-are-out-of-touch-with-the-middle-class-When-will-Democrats-turn-this-around

[LiberalLovinLug]

187. And I would say that this is NOT an attack but a concern to get things right

You may take issue with the term "absolute failure" as being too strong, but (putting aside the federal election loss) the Democrats have been gutted all across the land from Governorships to local elections. How would you describe it? Some has to do with GOP shenanigans, but there is much the Democrats could consider. And my link up-post on Chuck Schumer illustrates that he even thinks there is room for improvement.

[pirateshipdude]

190. "GOP shenanigans" Shenanigans? Voter theft/oppression/suppression are merely, Shenanigans? Eom

[pirateshipdude]

191. So, someone else googled for you and look, the response is: So? Proving my point, why bother.

The whole point of your post was to throw out a distract with uncertainty, to a point we are all well aware of.

Gaslighting. I think that is how the define that, but I am not real sure. Maybe someone else can help me with that one, too.

[Demsrule86]

210. It is an attack...in my opinion.

[Eliot Rosewater]

180. We have not learned from last election and since I am not allowed to discuss it here

we will lose again in 2018.

Not that I could fix it all, but I do have this little speech, goes kinda like this

2 parties
not 3

any vote for 3rd party or non vote is a vote for fascism

the end

[pirateshipdude]

192. I really did not think people that defined themselves as progressive would encourage splitting up

our party vote. Math alone tells us that is a stupid idea. So, since it is so simple, we have to believe the purpose was not to win in 2016.

[Eliot Rosewater]

194. Agreed, although I have met very progressive, very involved activists

who didnt want the gop to win but couldnt see how what they were doing was so harmful and still is.

They cant see it, wont see it.

I have resigned myself and my family to the reality that America is over and we are trying to figure out how to survive accordingly.

[pirateshipdude]

200. I cannot give them an out any more than the Trump supporters. Facts are there.

A person is responsible for their own education because we have seen proven out. My stating fact does nothing. Does not matter. We have a world of alternative fact purposely playing it.

I simply become a part of the noise.

But we have also learned that not speaking out and calling out, re writes history. That serves none of us.

It is a tricky situation with social media, and constant msm of opinion.

[R B Garr]

199. Your point was clear. You don't want any critiques

of Bernie's current remarks because you can't counter them with But Hillary.

[pnwmom]

2. Depends on what you mean. If supporters of either one are pushing the idea of a 2020 candidacy,

then we should expect some pushback -- as happens when ANYONE is suggested for 2020. No one is universally liked.

[Ken Burch]

121. There's no good reason for either to run again.

The only kind of candidate that can ever unite the anti-Trump majority would be a candidate who played no major role in 2016.

[pnwmom]

122. The anti-Trump majority already chose Hillary, by a 2.9 million vote margin.

We have to focus even harder on voter turnout than we did this time around. And countering the Russian propaganda that will be directed against ANYONE we run.

[Ken Burch]

124. We need to work harder on turnout and fighting Russian interference, but those aren't enough.

We can only flip the House and get a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate if the supporters of both past candidates, neither of whom will run again, are accepted as full and legitimate members of this party.

It's time for everyone to admit that the Sanders v. Clinton dynamic is over.

We can't win as a Sanders supporters-only party.

Equally, we can't win as a Clinton supporters-only party.

This party needs to be a united front in which the ideas of both of those campaigns, plus the ideas an energies of those whose votes we should have won but could not, are now needed.

No one has anything to lose from that.

[pirateshipdude]

128. "Equally, we can't win as a Clinton supporters-only party." Yes. We can. Eom

[Ken Burch]

130. No we can't. And there's no reason to try.

We need a big win in 2020. We can only get that by running a different campaign.

A campaign that fights for the Democratic base, and for everyone who SHOULD be in that base.

Anyone we nominated will fight for social justice and against institutional bigotry. That is never going to go away.

[pirateshipdude]

131. Yes, we can Ken Burch. Again, ignoring all that happened in this election to then

state that must mean we need the outlier vote at our parties expense, does not make it true. The reason that you do not think is a big deal in making ourselves, our party, our candidate in a pretzel to try and accommodate this group that has no interest to play nice and cause our party and candidate major problems.

The base was strongly with Clinton. That is fact. The outlier was not the Democratic base, that is the problem.

[Ken Burch]

143. I'm not ignoring the Russian thing...but we can't win in the future if we assume that that

is the only thing we need to address.

And we can't actually do anything to address Russian interference until we win control over at least one lever of power.z

We can't make any gains at all solely on getting more of the base to vote.

All we'd have to do would be to incorporate at least some stronger economic justice ideas(most of the base wants New Deal economic policies from us anyway) a commitment to labor law reform(most of the country wants it to be easier for people to organize their workplace, and women and people of color want that more than the country as a whole) and at least a reduction in military intervention, especially in the Arab and Muslim world where it has been an absolute failure.

[pirateshipdude]

164. And again. The Democratic Party is all avout economic justice to the point that Sanders himself

picked up a couple of Clinton policies. We are already there Ken Burch. This is rewriting history and causing damage to the party, for the sake of holding up your particular candidate, continually imply the Democratic Party is weak in economic justice when that is not factually true, to the point of Sanders stealing some of Clinton policies like the college program.

[pirateshipdude]

165. Democratic party weak on economic justice. Right there. Incorrect, insulting, and fighting the

primary.

The reason people will always address this is while people like you and Sanders are still out there claiming the Democratic party is weak on economic justice, we have got to stand and speak out. That is a lie when Sanders was running and it is a lie now. To the point that Sanders policies were actually clueless and had to pick up Clinton's policies and then he goes to own it, rewriting history.

No.

You want people to quit saying "mean" things to Sanders? Quit playing the tired game that Democratic party is weak on economic just and that Sanders had anything to bring to the table. If so?

[markpkessinger]

148. It isn't a matter of just bringing along the base . . .

. . . to win national elections, we, like the Republicans, have to appeal to a significant portion of independent (i.e., unaffiliated) voters. They are the single largest voting block in the country. At the very least, we should expend some energy trying to understand the folks who voted for Obama twice, then shifted to Trump.

[pirateshipdude]

133. Every one of your posts is you refighting the primary, as you insist you aren't. Re-writing history,

also.

That is why people are continually addressing your refighting the primary. Re-writing history is unacceptable.

[Ken Burch]

142. I'm not rewriting history.

The only thing that is unchallenged history is that Trump carried the Electoral College.

And I'm not discussing anything in the fall campaign, let alone the primaries, at all here.

I'm talking about the future.

In the future, we need to bring in as many votes as possible.

Admitting the Sanders/Clinton dispute is over is part of that.

[LiberalLovinLug]

175. Thank you Ken for this OP

It is much needed.

We have to think about the future indeed.


Here is a news flash for everyone:

BERNIE SANDERS IS NOT A MEMBER OF JPR

Sanders is too busy for that, working alongside Democrats to fight against this absurdity in the White House.

[Gothmog]

198. The Sanders endorsed candidate in Virginia lost by a large margin

This theory has not worked in the real world

[nolabear]

3. You might want to tell Bernie that. He's not much of a uniter.

I tend not to attack him. But if he doesn't defend the party better in the 2018 elections I'm done with him for real. He's doing harm.

[bettyellen]

4. This- he needs to be working toward a Dem majority for 2018- it's crucial to our democracy.

If he's helping spoilers I have no support for that.

[DeeDeeNY]

155. ??

He's helping spoilers?

[emulatorloo]

208. Head of Bernie's superpac says they will endorse Republicans, Libertarians and Greens.

https://democraticunderground.com/10029277189

She also says that the Senator is in agreement with this.

That is certainly their right, I just wanted to answer yr question.

[DeeDeeNY]

213. Okay, agreed

If that person is accurately quoting Bernie, then that is distressing.

[DownriverDem]

15. Yep.

We have a two party system no matter how folks want it to be different.

[William Seger]

27. Yep, but problem is, "two party" is kind of a myth

Both the major parties have identifiable wings with different viewpoints in more or less cohesive coalitions, much like multi-party systems, except that we duke it out for leadership in the primaries. This past cycle, after the primaries and nominations, the cohesion was much stronger on the Republican side than on the Democratic side. We need to learn that it's great to fight hard up to the nominations, but then it really is a binary choice, and we need stop beating each other up for supporting the "wrong" candidate. Save it for the next primaries.

[DownriverDem]

161. No it's not a myth

I've been a Dem my whole life. They support more of what I care about than the repubs. It is so clear to those of us who know what the repubs stand for. Bernie needs to stop attacking the Dems. He needs to belong to the Dem Party if he wants to run in the Dem Primaries. There has never been total unity in the Dem Party. Join and fight for the changes you want. That's how it works.

[hueymahl]

178. That is a really cogent observation

I had never really thought of our system as having so much in common with a multi-party system. What you pointed out makes a lot of sense.

Thanks!

[Demsrule86]

184. Two party system is all we have and all we will ever have...there are disgreements in the big

tent Democratic Party, but we can still unite and beat the GOP...when we are attacked on the left and the right, the GOP wins...which is what happened during the 70's and 80's,2000 and 2016...we are close to being wiped out by the pouting , posturing of some alt-left types (wish there was a better term and no I do not mean you) and purity politics....so unless you want to live under GOP fascism,it is time to recognize that the Dem Party is the only vehicle for progressive policy, and that will always be true.

[calimary]

16. Indeed.

[Maven]

18. Cosign. nt

[Adrahil]

23. +1 NT

[George II]

43. And Nina Turner, too.

[ehrnst]

144. 1000+ (nt)

[Justice]

163. Agree + 1 million.

[MineralMan]

5. Oh, for pete's sake!

Bernie is the one who is still a Senator. Hillary didn't get elected to anything. Bernie is still the Independent Senator from Vermont. Hillary is a private citizen.

Hillary is not likely to run for office again. Bernie will run for his Senate seat in 2018 again.

Why are we talking about either of them? Why are you talking about them? Bernie will continue to vote with the Democrats in the Senate as always. Hillary will go to her polling place and vote for her choices of candidates.

Why is Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton a topic of conversation on DU right now?

For pete's sake, let it go, please...

[DBoon]

26. Q. "Why is Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton a topic of conversation on DU right now?"

A. trolls are busy stirring up disunity

[TheDebbieDee]

53. I agree! It's never too early for disruptors to start meddling in the

2018 Elections. The Trolls didn't leave progressive internet forums after Trump was elected - they're still here!

[Gothmog]

37. Hillary Clinton is out raising money for the party

Hillary Clinton turned her mailing list over to the party

[sheshe2]

95. Hillary...here.

Kamala Harris in the Hamptons: Hillary and Her Money People Are #WithHer

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/jennifervanlaar/2017/07/16/kamala-harris-n2355560

Hillary is out supporting Democrats for 2018 as well as 2020.

Brava, Hill is for all the people.

[Gothmog]

206. Helping members of the Democratic Party raise money is a good thing

[sheshe2]

209. Yes it is!

[Ken Burch]

126. My message is, exactly, to let it go.

1) As a incumbent aligned with the Democratic minority in the Senate, he should be getting the same "don't trash Democratic public figures" deference that HRC or Biden or Joe Manchin gets here.

[MineralMan]

157. Actually, the way you do that is to do that first.

Lead the way. Take the initiative. Be a leader, rather than a follower. Simple.

[emulatorloo]

211. Don't confuse criticism with violations of the TOS.

If you see genuine violations of the TOS, alert on them.

If you see differences of opinion on statements or policy, then use your considerable persuasive talents to discuss them.

[LiberalLovinLug]

185. This IS a call to "let it go"

You yourself have been guilty of starting what some would call divisive OPs on the subject.

In what bizzaro world does a plea for reconciliation become an OP that IS divisive?

Why is a call for unity, and letting go of sour grapes, such a threat for some in here?

[Eko]

6. There is a difference though.

Bernie is still a politician and he keeps criticizing the Democratic party. Clinton is not a politician and is not criticizing the party.

[Omaha Steve]

25. DNC allies incensed by Clinton criticism BY CRISTINA MARCOS - 06/02/17 06:00 AM EDT

OOPS???

Irritated Democrats say Hillary Clinton is wrong to cast blame on the national party for her loss to Donald Trump.

Allies of the Democratic National Committee (DNC) in particular were incensed by Clinton’s criticism of the party apparatus, saying she mischaracterized the committee’s work while needlessly stoking internal divisions.

“This is all about the last campaign. And really, what Democrats should be focusing on, and what I think Hillary Clinton should be figuring out, is how do we empower the DNC to have the best data resources to win races this year, in 2018 and 2020,” a former DNC aide said.

“Having hard feelings about the data that you may or may not have received in 2016 ultimately is not the reason why we lost.”


http://thehill.com/homenews/house/336001-dnc-allies-incensed-by-clinton-criticism

[Eko]

67. What a smoking gun you have provided!!!

Clinton-"I set up my campaign and we have our own data operation. I get the nomination. So I'm now the nominee of the Democratic Party. I inherit nothing from the Democratic Party," Clinton said. "I mean, it was bankrupt. It was on the verge of insolvency. Its data was mediocre to poor, nonexistent, wrong. I had to inject money into it."

You found a very mild critique of the data operation of the party, not the whole party.

Now for Sanders just this year.

3-31-17 in Boston.
"And the reason is, in my view, that the time is long overdue for fundamental restructuring of the Democratic Party. We need a Democratic Party which is not the party of the liberal elite but a party of the working class of this country.
"We need a party which is a grassroots party, a party where candidates are talking to working people -- not spending their time raising money from the wealthy and the powerful."

6-10-17
“The current model and the current strategy of the Democratic party is an absolute failure,” Sanders said.
“The Democratic party needs fundamental change. What it needs is to open up its doors to working people, and young people, and older people who are prepared to fight for social and economic justice.
“The Democratic party must understand what side it is on. And that cannot be the side of Wall Street, or the fossil fuel industry, or the drug companies.”

4-23-17
“Well, I think what is clear to anyone who looks at where the Democratic Party today is that the model of the Democratic Party is failing,”

02-02-17
“Let me suggest to you, and some will disagree with me and that’s okay, too. But let me suggest to you that what happened on November 8th. Trump’s victory was not a victory for Trump or his ideology. It was a gross political failure of the Democratic Party,”

7-13-17
"I'm going to stand up for the working class of this country that has so long been ignored, and in my view, the Democratic Party has not done a good job of standing up for the working class of this country."
"Well, for the last many, many years, the Democratic Party has been spending too much time raising money from its wealthy friends, turning its back on rural America, turning its back on the working class, talking about deregulating Wall Street, not paying attention to the needs of people whose standard of living has been in decline,"

I'm sure I could find more but there isn't any reason to. It is in no way equivalent nor is Clinton a politician.

Thanks!!!
Eko.

[mcar]

70. You said it so well

As always, she is held to a higher standard than he.

[pirateshipdude]

71. Thank-you so much for facts. Like the Russia/Trump vs Clinton/Ukraine. Not the same animal.

People that oppose Clinton often use this formula to obscure the truth.

[Me.]

72. Beautifully Done

[Omaha Steve]

74. "This information is really key to our campaign and our strategy,"

I was pointing out how valuable the DNC was to Clinton on Dec. 19, 2015 before her DNC position evolved!

https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2015-12-18/ap-source-records-sanders-aides-saved-clinton-voter-data

The campaigns are able to add their own information to the database, information which they use to target voters and anticipate what issues might motivate them to cast ballots.

[Eko]

80. So what?

Not in any way equivalent, one time on Clinton vs so many with Sanders it would take me hours to post all of them. Plus,,,,,,,,Clinton is not a politician now.

[Omaha Steve]

81. And Bernie has been out spreading the word against Trumpcare etc...

State after state and still drawing crowds of D's, I's, & even a few R's.

Somebody else not so much! SO WHAT?

[Eko]

85. And repeatedly criticizing the Democratic party.

Unlike Clinton. Back where we started.

[Omaha Steve]

87. Well I sure didn't feel like the D party was successful last November!!!

Did you? Maybe a little criticism isn't so bad?

[Eko]

88. Not that successful,

but we did get 3 million more votes. And, this has nothing to do with the argument so why bring it up?

[Omaha Steve]

97. You were saying Bernie is critical

I said there was room for criticism after last November's results.

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/9ce9c371-4e95-4f5f-a9cb-94560de7eceb

[Eko]

104. So, tell me why

Sanders gets to repeatedly criticize the party I belong to but I don't get to criticize him?

[pirateshipdude]

106. Yes. Sincerely, I too would like to know why he can insult and attack not only the

Democratic Party, the Democratic leaders, but the Democratic base too and we are not suppose to call it out.

I would like to hear this also. My whole sense of fair and just is outraged with this demand. O.K., outraged is strong but I do not see the argument in it. It is not going to happen, either, regardless how many times we are told we are not suppose to call out the insults, attacks and worse.

[Omaha Steve]

108. I made no such comment

This thread is on my comment Hillary made about the DNC. I never said she was wrong either. I did point out she evolved from a December 2015 comment last month.

[Eko]

110. Sorry, this thread

is on my comment #6
There is a difference though.
Bernie is still a politician and he keeps criticizing the Democratic party. Clinton is not a politician and is not criticizing the party.

That you commented on.
Thanks!
Eko.

[ehrnst]

152. +1000 (nt)

[R B Garr]

91. Why isn't Bernie inviting Clinton to go with him?

What's up with that?

[Omaha Steve]

93. How do we KNOW he didn't?

[R B Garr]

101. Ken Burch is very very concerned about unity, so no need for a manufactured

and gratuitous hit on Clinton in this thread about unity.

[betsuni]

76. +1

[JHan]

77. wish I could rec posts.

[YCHDT]

135. +1

[NastyRiffraff]

168. Thread winner!

Excellent presentation of ACTUAL FACTS. Thank you.

Personally, I wish we could stop talking about Bernie altogether, but that won't be happening on DU any time soon. He SHOULD be irrelevant, but he keeps whining about how bad the Democratic party supposedly is.

[NurseJackie]

170. That's brilliant. Thank you for an outstanding post.

It's perfect.

[R B Garr]

225. Excellent post! There's a reason the GOP attacks Chelsea

Clinton more than Bernie Sanders. He is an asset.

[lapucelle]

79. What's a DNC ally?

Of course these people are pushing back. They're itinerant professional political consultants for hire who work on the Democratic side.

It's a hard loss to explain on a resume.

[R B Garr]

99. You obviously didn't see the speech from which this article originated.

Have you even read the article? Of course, it wouldn't make as much sense without seeing the speech first.

Hillary was referencing the DNC as compared to the RNC in terms of effectiveness. Hillary was saying that the RNC is run more like a premier resource, and the DNC cannot compete with them. The RNC rep confirms that here:

------------"RNC Chairwoman Ronna Romney McDaniel appeared on “Fox & Friends” Thursday morning to tout the RNC’s infrastructure.

"We see it. We see it every day. We are on the ground in all these states. The RNC is far superior in terms of data and ground game. We retooled after 2012 and we’re going to continue to do that,” McDaniel said."-----------------------------

So you don't "need" to keep posting this, especially since you are taking it so out of context from what was discussed in the actual speech.

[pirateshipdude]

100. Thank-you so much for the clarification for those of us that did not do the background research

on what was provided. I appreciate it.

[R B Garr]

112. Thanks to you for saying that!

Appreciated.

[Omaha Steve]

102. "This information is really key to our campaign and our strategy,"

I was pointing out how valuable the DNC was to Clinton on Dec. 19, 2015 before her DNC position evolved!

https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2015-12-18/ap-source-records-sanders-aides-saved-clinton-voter-data

The campaigns are able to add their own information to the database, information which they use to target voters and anticipate what issues might motivate them to cast ballots.

[R B Garr]

111. One doesn't have to do with the other. The RNC can still be clearly superior in

the ways mentioned, which was the gist of her comments in 2017. The DNC can still be valuable. Also, two years went by between 2015 and 2017. Why are you insinuating or implying Clinton didn't "add" her information to the database. I'm sure Clinton targeted voters. Endless insinuations....

[Omaha Steve]

221. Hillary had at least 8 years to help change the DNC

IF it was so bad why did she pick the former person in charge as a running mate? DNC was bad should have been a red flag. Next person to run it resigns and gets hired immediately by Hillary.

[R B Garr]

224. More out of control insinuations and just bogus

info and conclusions. In that speech, she was mainly juxtaposing the superior RNC operations that are well-funded, etc. You apparently don't realize the comparison comments because you didn't listen to her speech.

Check Snopes to see where your insinuations are off. Not everything is about Hillary.

[emulatorloo]

212. What's this sudden love for the DNC, Steve? You know I love you but

your overall arguments lack any kind of internal consistency.

One day the DNC is an all powerful Evil Cabal full of neonliberals, then the next day you feel sorry for for a couple butthurt DNC employees.

[Omaha Steve]

218. Where do you see me sticking up for the DNC?

I pointed out somebody changed their opinion over them. December 2015 DNC was great with DWS in charge. Before DWS is was her VP pick. June 2017 DNC is bad.

[emulatorloo]

228. Here

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9333927

P.S. "December 2015 DNC was great with DWS in charge. Before DWS is was her VP pick. June 2017 DNC is bad."

So now you're making up shit, manufacturing strawman, and shoving words in other people's mouths that they didn't say.

[Omaha Steve]

229. Do you see anything in that post that said Hillary was wrong in complaining?

[emulatorloo]

230. I see a lot of scrambling, strawmen arguments, and revisionist history

And above all a lot of meaningless "whataboutism"

[Omaha Steve]

231. I see in Dec 2015 DNC was great and mission critical with DWS running it

Then this past June she changed her tune, it's broken compared to the RNC.

I only posted the June comment in reply to several DUer replies about Bernie complaining about the party. Funny some can't see it as a simple comparison.

[Cryptoad]

7. Must be time to stir the OLe Shit Pot!!!!

[murielm99]

8. You tell us to be united,

but you start out your post with a defensive statement about "attacking Bernie."

Let it go.

[Iggo]

9. They're not going to let it go.

They barely let it go in 2008, and only then because there was a Dem in the WH.

Telling them to let it go isn't going to work.

It's not helpful.

Take your own advice and let it go.

(Oh shit. Now I'm doing it...lol.)

[gilligan]

10. When thats all they have. WTF.

[LakeArenal]

11. No one feels the need to attack anyone..

Lots of people have critical opinions of each. Why use that word.. attacking... Everyone has an opinion, everyone has a critic. Do you think Bernie or Hillary lay awake nights feeling attacked by the other?

Past elections do matter. We need to learn from them and move forward. If that woman's path is different than that other guy's path... That's the way it goes.

[DownriverDem]

12. Love Bernie's ideas, but

I am a proud Dem. If Bernie wants to run again in the Dem Party primaries, he needs to join the Dem Party.

[Demsrule86]

21. I wouldn't vote for him in any case...and mark my words, if runs, we lose.

[lunamagica]

46. +1

[grossproffit]

51. +2

[Hortensis]

65. I like Elizabeth Warren's ideas and accomplishments.

She's a doer.

[GulfCoast66]

103. And equally important

A Democrat!

[Hortensis]

141. Well, ideology is still more important than label to me.

But we're actually very much on the same page here. The Democratic Party is a genuine party of, by, and for the people.

I like to remember that, even though Warren was a registered Republican for years, she now works passionately as a Democrat to defeat what the Republicans have become. She's clear-eyed and competent and was able to become a Democrat because she understands and respects who and what we are and what we collectively stand for. Wish she had decided to run for president when people were so hopeful she would, including me. She would have done well, and whoever won the primary, the candidates would have entered the general pulling together. Because that's who she is.

[Fla Dem]

13. That is just illogical thinking. Bernie is still a seating US Senator taking potshots at the Dems

HRC is pretty much out of the spotlight and really has no direct impact on the political landscape today. Bernie on the other hand keeps jabbing the Democrats, while espousing programs as his own that in truth are Democratic policies. When Bernie shuts his mouth, then maybe then we'll shut ours.

[Plucketeer]

34. Bernie on the other hand keeps jabbing the Democrats

and voting in lockstep (IN the Senate) with them. Hillary votes Democratic too - at her local polling station.

[Omaha Steve]

44. Second time I've had to post this in this OP

OOPS???

Irritated Democrats say Hillary Clinton is wrong to cast blame on the national party for her loss to Donald Trump.

Allies of the Democratic National Committee (DNC) in particular were incensed by Clinton’s criticism of the party apparatus, saying she mischaracterized the committee’s work while needlessly stoking internal divisions.

“This is all about the last campaign. And really, what Democrats should be focusing on, and what I think Hillary Clinton should be figuring out, is how do we empower the DNC to have the best data resources to win races this year, in 2018 and 2020,” a former DNC aide said.

“Having hard feelings about the data that you may or may not have received in 2016 ultimately is not the reason why we lost.”


http://thehill.com/homenews/house/336001-dnc-allies-incensed-by-clinton-criticism

[PatrickforO]

14. We've got to stop attacking any Democrats, hash out our platform -

I think the platform used for Secretary Clinton in the 2016 election, which she won by popular vote, serves well.

However, we must learn to talk about kitchen table issues like fear of being laid off, health care costs, student loan debt and other things most independent voters, indeed, a majority of Americans care about, in aggressive, articulate ways.

For instance, when we talk about healthcare access, we need to say 'Medicare for all Americans' rather than 'Single payer.' Why? Because it polls better. Words do matter.

Check out the excerpt from a Washington Post article:

"A recent survey from the Economist/YouGov found that a majority of Americans support “expanding Medicare to provide health insurance to every American.” Similarly, a poll from Morning Consult/Politico showed that a plurality of voters support “a single payer health care system, where all Americans would get their health insurance from one government plan.”

Divining the longer-term trend in attitudes toward this idea is difficult, as the way survey questions on the topic are asked has changed over time. Views of a health-care system in which all Americans get their insurance from the government single payer vary a lot depending on how you frame the question. Calling it “Medicare for all,” for example, generally elicits much stronger approval, while emphasizing the word “government” tends to depress support."

Here's the link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/sorry-republicans-but-most-people-support-single-payer-health-care/2017/04/17/f0919bb6-23a6-11e7-bb9d-8cd6118e1409_story.html

[Bernardo de La Paz]

17. Criticism, esp w recommendations for unifying party, is one thing. Attack not so good.

Ideally, we suggest how to harness all kinds of progressive, liberal, Democratic ENERGY to go forward and show the nation that the US is REALLY A PROGRESSIVE NATION once you cut out all the gerrymandering and voter suppression.

We have to win state legislatures and then put districting into permanent independent commissions.

[CCExile]

19. I don't really think of Trump as the enemy...

I see him as the fungal bloom of mycelium made out of a web of tiny filaments called modern conservatism. He will rot, drip, and vanish one way or another. The real threats are his successors, the entrenched conservative, and a vast swath of un/under educated Americans. The short term danger is handing over the White House to Pence and having the current Congress start passing what they want to pass. Trump, with all of his horribleness, is a boon to our hopes for the mid-terms and beyond.

[Demsrule86]

20. He is the enemy ...the worst president of my lifetime and the most corrupt...traitor.

[Progressive dog]

22. I took away from your post that

the only things important to you are social justice and economic injustice.

[DBoon]

24. Germany in the early 1930s

Last edited Sun Jul 16, 2017, 09:15 PM - Edit history (1)

Social Democrats and Communists spent valuable energy attacking each other, with Communists referring to Social Democrats as "social fascists"

A few years later, both were sent to the same camps.

[pirateshipdude]

28. Clinton is not creating todays headline, and making todays statement that might be addressed

Last edited Sun Jul 16, 2017, 05:45 PM - Edit history (1)

on a political board.

[Gothmog]

30. Did you ever make it to an indivisible meeting yet?

The real world is a nice place.

[liberal N proud]

31. Hillary is probably done politically, BS, is still out there being rather decisive.

BS is partially bringing criticism but, I wouldn't think anyone needs to "attack" anyone!

[Demsrule86]

57. He is a Senator...and that is that... I don't want him to run in 20 but he can be a good Senator...

he should stop saying stuff about the Democratic Party.

[NurseJackie]

32. LOL! Nobody is doing that.

[Blue_Warrior]

109. Hahahahaha

LOL!

[Gothmog]

207. Yep

[FarPoint]

33. When Bernie decides to stay a Democrat ..

I'll take him more seriously....My goal is and will always be to promote Democrats ... Bernie was a Hitchhiker for the Primaries..until he lost...then briskly returned as an Independent....

So, he uses us...He will have to do a lot of life choice changes for me to embrace him.

[hunter]

35. Bernie Sanders is a center-right politician in a center-right U.S.A..

Same with Obama, same with Clinton.

This issue is BORING. Not worth stirring shit about.

I will say I've been an enthusiastic Hillary Clinton supporter throughout, and an enthusiastic Obama supporter once he beat Clinton in the primary. Hillary would have been a better President than Bill but in this top-banana-republic of the banana-republic-U.S.A., and among the perpetually "developing nations" of this planet, we were not yet ready for a woman president.

Obama is among the most competent Presidents this nation has ever enjoyed. Clinton would have been such too.

My personal political views are hard left and environmentally extreme compared to Sanders, Clinton, or Obama.

But my public politics are always practical.

My criticism of Sanders is that he wasn't a practical presidential candidate. He may have contributed some to Clinton's Democratic Party platform, the most progressive platform ever, but he himself was not a viable candidate.

It's time to put this mess behind us because shit happened. It was partially because we Democrats were divided, but largely because the Republicans gamed the Electoral College, gerrymandered everything, suppressed votes, and entangled themselves with Russian mobsters.

We Democrats need new younger leadership that is willing to kick ass as it is respectful of it's elders, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton included...

[Demsrule86]

59. I agree with you completely. And I think this would be good as an OP nt.

[hunter]

63. Let's see if I get a Ken Burch reply...

[SunSeeker]

138. LOL

[pirateshipdude]

73. Hey Hunter, this is an awesome post. I may not stand exactly with you on the political slide.

Or I may, I do not know. But, the whole of your post is very pragmatic and to the point. I concur. I enjoy reading reason. Thnak-you.

[hunter]

75. Pragmatic... that's a good word.

As much as I'd love to be represented by a multi-party parliamentary government, that's not what the U.S.A. is. It's a two-party system.

[Omaha Steve]

84. Bernie the center right Democratic Socialist & Independent!

Millions of them....

[hunter]

89. Did it help or hinder?

[Omaha Steve]

92. It sure didn't bother the youngest voters (or I's)

http://graphics.wsj.com/elections/2016/how-clinton-won/



Edit to add or I's!

[hunter]

96. At some risk of this post hidden by jury...

...Sanders is an old white Jewish guy. Kinda like a political Einstein.

Same wild hair, assumed to know money, and most importantly, not a woman.

Maybe I'm allowed to say this for my Wild West frontier Lewis & Clark Jewish and Catholic folk ancestors.

My crazy grandma was buried quick and unembalmed in a plain wooden box with a Star of David on it. That's the way she wanted it. No, she wasn't Jewish, not that she ever practiced, just as my Irish Catholic ancestors were not Irish.

Yeah, right...

What my Wild West ancestors had in common was they were not Mormon.

[Rebl2]

158. Agreed

It's time for younger people to take over. I don't want someone in their late sixties or early seventies running for President again (I'm in my sixties). I think Republicans are quietly having a good laugh seeing us in such disarray and attacking each other.

[boston bean]

36. Mommy, she started it!

[pirateshipdude]

66. Ha ha. Eom

[La Lioness Priyanka]

150. You win this thread

[librechik]

38. I haven't been keeping track.Do Bernie supporters still scoff at the notion of Russian interference?

cuz I got a muzzle full of that a few months back when this first started. I guess they really really want to blame Hillary like from the beginning. Unless they caught a clue.

[jodymarie aimee]

39. agreed

however, you can see some of us still dig swatting at each other. The Rs love that.

[JHan]

40. Yawn

[George II]

41. Some can just not let things rest - and this after a tome earlier this week that we need to unify.

[NurseJackie]

47. Amazing, isn't it?

[Ken Burch]

234. This is about unity.

Unity means not telling anybody progressive to go away.

It means making this party a space in which people can work for what they want, including the ideas they want.

And it's not about the senator from Vermont as it is about us.

We need all the votes we can get in '18 and '20.

Whatever you think about the junior senator from Vermont-and I have issues with him on the way he has spoken on some issues-we HAVE to have the support of the people who rallied to him and of those who support the best of his ideas. We have no chance of winning their votes if we anathemize everything they care about and insist that no changes happen.

All we would need to do to win in future elections would be to combine New Deal economics with anti-oppression social policies-policies that would help the victims of hatred and the victims of greed-and no one in our base by the adoption of such policies.

[Squinch]

42. Ugh. I thought all of this would be over so I un-trashed the words Bernie and Sanders.

While those keywords were trashed, I hardly saw any infighting. Now infighting and nonsense is about a quarter of my DU page. Can't believe you guys are still beating this dead horse.

I guess I'll restore the keyword trash.

[NurseJackie]

58. Smart.

[Squinch]

61. Also telling that the trashing of these two words eliminates the infighting posts.

[NurseJackie]

64. Some people prefer to block specific users, but the word-trash feature seems like it's...

... very effective.

[Snackshack]

45. Hmmm...

"Sanders cited President Trump's win, the GOP-controlled Congress, and Republican victories in state legislatures as reasons why Democrats are in trouble.

Clearly the Democratic Party has got to change. And in my view, what it has got to become is a grassroots party, a party which makes decisions from the bottom on up, a party which is more dependent on small donations than large donations," Sanders said.

Sanders, who ran for the Democratic Party's presidential nomination in 2016, also emphasized the need for Democrats to connect to working-class and middle-class voters.

The Democratic Party has got to take the lead, rally people, young people, working people, stand up to the billionaire class," said Sanders."

He is making very valid points.

[George II]

48. Valid points, but never ever any suggestions on how to accomplish those things. It's always...

Last edited Sun Jul 16, 2017, 07:38 PM - Edit history (1)

..."we have to do this", "we have to do that", etc. Never "we have to do this by xxxx". Always pointing to negatives without presenting a positive.

[lunamagica]

49. Please send this to Sen Sanders. I hope he follows your advice

especially the part where you wrote "And the only people any of us should be treating as the enemy is Trump."

He needs to see it.

[IronLionZion]

50. I look forward to the day when DUers attack Republicans instead of each other

One can dream...

[tiredtoo]

52. Still see some possible trolls in this thread

trying to stir trouble. United we stand.

[johnp3907]

54. Sanders doesn't get attacked.

He gets counter-attacked.

[Orrex]

55. Yes, because got 3M more votes than Trump

And because the election was stolen from him.
And because people still tell him what he should have done better, even though he won the popular majority on an admirably Progressive platform.


Oh, wait. He didn't? Then your comparison is ridiculous.

[Blue_true]

62. Exactly WHAT???? Bad thing has Hillary done?

Your word bias exposed you.

[ZX86]

69. AUMF

That was a seriously bad thing that has gotten hundreds of thousands innocent men, women, and children killed. Violently.

[George II]

86. bush misused the AUMF. In principle it wasn't a bad idea, that's why so many...

...on both sides voted for it.

[pirateshipdude]

94. +1. I do not even bother anymore. Eom

[Ken Burch]

125. I wasn't saying she had done anything wrong.

But it's not permitted to say anything critical even about her fall campaign here.

Both are fallible humans. Both have made major mistakes.

Neither is solely responsible for what happened in November.

So let's take both of them out of the line of fire and move on to unity.

[Blue_true]

215. There are still a lot of raw nerves.

I admire Hillary as a person and love most of her politics. But even I got flagged once or twice.

I wish DU members were not so quick to pull the trigger on other DU members and maybe get them banned from DU for what can be resolved by a simple DU mail to the person. I have had people that disagreed sharply with a post email me, after we talked for a while, I understood where they were coming from and to top thing off, we were actually not far apart.

[hunter]

68. Hello. Ken Burch?

Are you there?

[NurseJackie]

132. Good question. Very observant.

[Starry Messenger]

78. Hillary is now a private citizen again

The Senator still has a job funded with my tax money. I'll complain within bounds of this website as I please.

[StevieM]

82. I'm not looking to complain about any Democrat, liberal or progressive. I am getting excited about

Jay Inslee, the governor of Washington, and the next president of the United States.

[mvd]

90. Hi StevieM

Does he have a good progressive record? While I could support Bernie again if he runs, I am looking to get excited about someone new, progressive, AND a Democrat. It just can't be all Bernie since he is getting older.

[StevieM]

98. I think he is known as a reasonably liberal Democrat.

He is a strong voice in the battle against climate change. To me that is the most important issue. I want the next president to be someone like Al Gore, someone who will make the fight for clean renewable energy priority number one.

He also was an outspoken critic of Trump's travel ban.

He appears to be more of a free trader than I suspect many Bernie supporters would like.

I am not Bernie's biggest fan but I actually don't think his age is disqualifying. I think everyone who wants to run should run. And I suspect that Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren will both enter the race.

[mvd]

105. True, I don't think it is either

But as a fan, I want the party to have more like him. Eventually the enthusiasm will have to be taken up by someone else.

Thanks for your reply and Warren is also one I may support. Really liking her book.

[pirateshipdude]

107. I have to disagree. I do not think the Democratic Party can afford many more

comparing us to the competing party. We both are not even close to being the same. One thing I admire and never want to change about the Democratic Party is, we do not use hyperbole and rhetoric to sell our policies.

[brer cat]

116. +1

I think people who say both parties are the same are like children who always insist on getting their way or they won't play. We operate from the strength of having concrete policies and plans, not pie-in-the-sky promises or complaints with no realistic solutions.

[pirateshipdude]

119. Point on. Eom

[BainsBane]

83. It's not about individuals

which is why every single post you write is about Bernie. If you cared about anything else, you'd post about it.

And he was attacked? Let me guess. That's about someone posting the "fake news" NYtimes article on the FBI investigation into alleged bank fraud. It's horrible when the news isn't censored to cater to your feelings.

[Ken Burch]

129. Most of my posts aren't about him. They are about US.

My point is, there is an active effort not only to go after him in this party but to drive as many of his supporters away from active involvement in this party as possible

They can't be expected to be involved in this party if a precondition is that they have to give up having any group identity and accept the idea that everything in their agenda is against the interests of "the Democratic base".

Can we please just proceed on the following assumptions?

1) We are PAST the "economic justice OR social justice" debate. Campaign phraseology aside, those two movements agree on the agenda about 90-95% of the time. Many people work actively for both causes. Those causes have been largely aligned since at least the early Seventies and are growing more and more in agreement all of the time.

2) No supporter of any past candidate can be assumed to share the shortcomings others found in that candidate.

3) We need as many votes as we can get. If we focus solely on fighting voter suppression-which we obviously do need to do-that can't give us enough votes in and of itself to win, or at least not to win by the kind of margin we need to elect a Congress that will actually pass transformational legislation.

4) We can add a lot of votes we didn't last time without doing ANYTHING that would betray our current base.

I'm simply posting as somebody who wants us to win.

And at this point, I don't personally have a candidate for 2020.

[pirateshipdude]

134. Sanders is in front of the camera, today. We are addressing his statements from today!

[NurseJackie]

145. That's a truthful and accurate observation. Straightforward and direct...

... easy to understand. (For most of us, that is.)

[GulfCoast66]

113. Per the rules of this site I will not attack members of the Democratic Party

Nor do I attack natural allies such as Angus King unless I become aware of actions that ally has take that I feel deserves criticism(I hate the word attack in a political reference)

And if a MEMBER of the Democratic Party criticizes the party while working and battling within the party apparatus to make it better, they will receive my praise, even if I disagree with their goals. Because that is what a successful political party does. A group of generally like minded people fight like hell to reach a goal that none love, but all can agree on.

But when someone who became a member of my party when convenient and necessary to achieve their goal, and then leaves the party when the party is no long convenient starts throwing rocks at our party...well I might be inclined to attack.

Reminds me of the people who continually and loudly complain about their homeowners associations here in Florida. Everyone love to hear it an it makes them feel very popular. But if you ask them to run for the board and actually work to make the changes they espouse, they suddenly change the subject.

[pirateshipdude]

117. Excellent post. Yes. Eom

[Chevy]

140. +100000 n/t

[ehrnst]

147. +1000. (nt)

[Tarheel_Dem]

114. Careful. Your Bernie fixation is showing. Not everything revolves around the Independent from VT.

[NurseJackie]

146. Thank you.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

151. Everything revolves around old white straight men

Even if the base looks nothing like that

[redstateblues]

115. Yawn-this kind of post is exhausting. Serves no constructive purpose

[pnwmom]

137. Anyone who attacks the party should expect to face criticism from party supporters. n/t

[Akamai]

139. I wish I had written this post. Your logic is sound and we need all the support we can get.

I think Bernie embraces all of the things that progressives want, except, perhaps, for turning into a Democrat himself. It seems to me that being an Independent he can appeal to wider range of voters. Clearly what he is doing in reaching out to the red states now is incredibly supportive of the Democratic agenda.

I don't know anyone else who is firing up the progressive base nearly as much as he is. He is telling "truth to power" and I believe that the country will be better off if he continues to do so.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

149. Again? lol

[Blue_Tires]

153. When I see people actually stop doing the former, I'll stop doing the latter...

[brooklynite]

154. I don't see attacks; I see criticism...

...and since Sanders is still engaged in political activity, his susceptibility to criticism is different than Clinton.

[betsuni]

156. I have checked my calendar, just in case, and it is indeed 2017.

Make it stop, make it stop, make it stop.

[dlk]

159. If Bernie Would Just Stop Dissing the Democratic Party

I agree-- we need to be united. However, Bernie keeps coming out with digs against the Democratic Party, long after the election, when he's not even a member. Let's not get distracted by false equivalencies.

[philly_bob]

160. Stop the infighting. Stop the hate threads on DU. /nt

[LanternWaste]

162. Sacred cows are attacked, politicians merely criticized.

Criticism against a sacred cow is an attack.

Attacks against a politicians we do not support is merely criticism.

Every damn time.

For our bias tells us so.

[VaBchTgerLily]

166. I agree

[zentrum]

167. Thank you Ken. nt

[FairWinds]

169. The Dem Party is not above criticism . .

They should give Bernie a medal for showing them the
way on health care for all, college tuition, minimum wage,
and much else.

[FairWinds]

174. Well no, Bernie did not "take" the Clinton college plan,

and why didn't the Dems pass a minimum wage boost when
they had 60 Senate votes?

The Dems did not adopt "Fight For Fifteen" until July of 2016 - clearly
influenced to do so by party activists as well as Bernie.

And what does "fails on the HC for all" even mean?

Pretty good evidence here that you are disingenuous.

[pirateshipdude]

176. Yes, Sanders did adopt Clinton's and then tried to own it.

His free college to all was a miserably lazy plan, poorly executed and did not factor in what would happen to our lower income kids, with the rich having more opportunity for the slots in colleges. While poor would end up paying for the rich to be educated.

Democrats were a little busy pushing out a HC. Obama and Democrats accomplished an incredible amount int he first year. 2009, they put out a minimum wage increase and it was shot down. The $15 an hour sounds good, but like most reasoned and well researched people know, not all of the nation is on the same playing field and that has to be taken into consideration which is what Clinton has always stated, stated in adopting the $15. and really no different than her position has ever been.

What Clinton is good at, unlike Sanders, is her ego does not have to be coddled, and if Sanders needs to own her positions so that she helps people, she seems to allow it.

Sanders had the opportunity to push the single payer in Vermont and walked away to allow it to flounder. He could have easily jumped in since he is so competent in develop a doable policy, right?

I disagree I am disingenuous. I am factual. It is all written in history. All one has to do is read, rather than following rhetoric.

[lunamagica]

195. Excellent post

[bettyellen]

182. People should react to what they're doing and saying now. If Sanders been disappointing -

And he has - in voicing doubt about the Russia issues, or attacking Dems. He's going to get pushback for those things here- it's a given. We're about supporting Dems. There are loads of places on the net with different aims.

[Orsino]

186. Bernie is not a Democrat.

He is available for sterner criticism by the rules.

[FairWinds]

188. The Koch Bros are not democrats either . .

by any reasonable measure, but the Dem establishment seems to
have no problem with them.

The major problem that the Dem establishment seems to have
with Bernie is that he stands up for the New Deal.

We need more of that, not less.

[pirateshipdude]

201. Dems have no problem with Koch Brothers. Seriously? That is offensive, as a Democrat and

supporting my Democratic Party. And no, it is not true. That is what makes it stink so bad, that Democrats have to even respond to a comment like: Dems have no problem with Koch Brothers.

I can not take a post like this one seriously.

[Trumpocalypse]

217. Not just offensive

but not true.

[pirateshipdude]

219. Exactly. The OP questions why as Democrats we have to constantly challenge the lies. Eom

[FairWinds]

227. Where do you folks think the Democratic

Leadership Council came from? It was bought and paid for
by the Kochs, and as we can readily see from these forums,
it is still influential today in trying to turn the party away from
progressivism.

Bernie was and remains a breath of fresh air in the Dem
Party - challenging the establishment on a while range of
progressive issues.

Like FDR.

[Alice11111]

204. I got dinged for even mentioning names of people

That rule should be dropped, as it is used to ding people when it isn't even remotely applicable, & it is very inconsistently applied.

[Cary]

205. You go on and on about how many angels dance on the head of a pin

Last edited Mon Jul 17, 2017, 02:32 PM - Edit history (1)

None of this matters if we don't elect Democrats. You and I do not get our policies enacted unless we elect Democrats.

Which part of that don't you understand, Ken?

Occam's Razor: When faced with a complex problem with may possible solutions, start with the simplest solution. It may not be the most correct solution, and you can always change it. However you will be able to solve many problems just by using the simplest solution.

Why are leftists bickering? Because they want to bicker. Think about that Ken.

[betsuni]

214. There is no Hillary, only Zuul.

[Trumpocalypse]

216. Bull

Clinton is a private citizen now. Sanders is still an elected official and is planning on running again.

Also Clinton is a Democrat. Sanders is not.

Finally, Clinton is not attacking the Democratic party. Sanders still is.

He is fair game.

[Ken Burch]

233. He's critiquing it, bluntly. He's calling for change in the party, not its abolition.

And whatever you think of him(I myself think he phrased the "identity politics" thing horrifically badly and that he should find a less hostile way to frame his critiques), we need the young people who were engaged politically for the first time by him if we are to win by a decisive enough margin to actually change anything, or possibly if we are to win again at all.

Treating the man like he's the Antichrist works against OUR interests and will end up costing us votes we desperately need-votes we can never win by simply shouting "you HAVE to vote for us!".

[Trumpocalypse]

236. If he wants to change it so badly then he should join it.

Until then he is just a non-Democrat attacking my party. No better than Trump or Rush or a FAUX News talking head.

[ecstatic]

220. In fairness, Bernie is the one inserting himself with divisive comments

every 5 minutes. I tried the unity crap but Bernie refuses to stop talking trash about democrats (while being positive towards Trump & the deplorables)! It's sickening!

[kerry-is-my-prez]

223. Well, if either does something totally screwed up, I would certainly say something like "whoa this

is fucked up." It's not like either one of them is God. I do agree we do need to unite though. I always liked Bernie for years even though he has done some annoying things since running for president and I was a fan of Hillary from day one. Loved how she pissed off all those right-wingers.

[delisen]

226. Democrats are progressive.

[FairWinds]

232. I was a Bernie supporter until he lost the primaries . .

in NJ and CA, and then backed HRC fully - including with
thousands of dollars worth of in-kind donations.

I've been an active progressive democrat for decades, since long
before the DLC was just a gleam in the Koch Bros. eyes.

And what do I get for it?

Trashed on DU

[Locut0s]

235. All the above ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑ is why Trump has a chance of winning again in 2020.

Instead of putting down your differences and agreeing to remake the party, to seek out new young blood to galvanize your base, you guys are stuck beating a dead horse. The current administration was installed by treason, is possibly a puppet of a foreign enemy nation, is as incompetent as a box of rocks. You would think that would be enough political motivation for galvanize and unite any political opposition. Apparently not enough.