This Ohio factory owner says she has jobs but few sober applicants

[n2doc]

(CNN)An Ohio factory owner said Saturday that though she has blue-collar jobs available at her company, she struggles to fill positions because so many candidates fail drug tests.

Regina Mitchell, a co-owner of Warren Fabricating & Machining in Hubbard, Ohio, told The New York Times this week that four out of 10 applicants otherwise qualified to be welders, machinists and crane operators will fail a routine drug test.

In an interview Saturday with CNN's Michael Smerconish, Mitchell said that her requirements for prospective workers were simple.

"I need employees who are engaged in their work while here, of sound mind and doing the best possible job that they can, keeping their fellow co-workers safe at all times," she said.

more

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/29/us/ohio-factory-owner-cnntv/index.html

[Hassin Bin Sober]

1. So 60% of her applicants pass the drug screening but she still can't fill the jobs - due to drugs?

Maybe I'm missing something here.

[Warpy]

10. No kidding. What's she paying?

My guess is bupkus.

I wouldn't want people who tested positive for anything but pot, since that test is so worthless. I wouldn't want people on opiates, alcohol, or other depressants, especially. Those plus heavy machinery are not a good combination.

Still with 60% clean and sober, she should be able to find plenty of workers if she pays them.

If she doesn't, then to hell with her exploitative ass.

[TheBlackAdder]

15. Why doesn't she ship the welding to Mexico at $12-16/hr like most Libertarian types?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

40. That's really what stories like this are all about.

Who is John Galt?

Who is Barzini? I say.

Not for nuthin' but this is a story by right wing douchebag extraordinaire Michael Smerconish.

[Demsrule86]

68. Mexican welders get paid about half of that.

[Dreamer Tatum]

30. You're missing that she has, say, 10 jobs

and can't fill 4 because people can't lay off the crack pipe.

Pretty simple.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

33. Yeah, "4 out of 10 will fail" means she has a 60% success rate.

I suspect her problem is clean and sober skilled workers don't show up for $12 bucks an hour.

[Dreamer Tatum]

37. I'm sure that's it. You suspect it, and that alone seals it for me. nt

[Hassin Bin Sober]

39. Yeah, see post #38. I figured as much.

[TexasBushwhacker]

112. The article also mentions 12K skilled labor job openings in the county

My guess is that there she has competition that pays more.

[Girard442]

2. If only there was a way to attract more qualified applicants.

Maybe a Nobel Prize in economics awaits the person who cracks this heretofore uncrackable nut.

[TheBlackAdder]

16. Hmm. Let me think. Nope. Not coming up with anything :-D

[WhiskeyGrinder]

3. Why isn't she hiring the other six?

I mean, I get it, there's definitely a drug problem. And companies' hands are tied by insurance policies, laws and regulations that require certain safety metrics are hit. But she says six out of 10 pass, so what's the issue?

[Bradical79]

6. Demand and poor pay?

Maybe demand for sober workers is so high that they're getting better offers elsewhere.

Seems to be the problem at my store. We got something like 40 applications, were only able to set up three interviews from that group, and of those three, only one actually showed. Our company just isn't willing to pay what's needed to get workers. Most of the people we do hire end up quitting within weeks.

[MichMan]

8. I would think if the pay was the issue, people wouldnt apply nm

[Bradical79]

12. You don't put all your eggs in one basket

and lots of places don't advertise the pay in the want ad.

[Mariana]

18. The same thing happens where I work.

People looking for a job often submit lots of applications. They usually don't know what the rate of pay will be until after the interview, when the offer is made. Even if they accept the job, they don't stop looking for a better paying one. if another employer gives them a better offer, they accept it and they're gone. Happens all the time.

[krispos42]

84. Happened at my place

This spring we hired one guy to replace somebody that was leaving, then we tried out 2 more. I said "Can we hire both?" And that's what they did.

The first guy left after a long series of tardiness and absenteeism, and a couple of cases of falling asleep on the job (one of which led to bringing him to the local walk-in clinic)... they let him go at the 90-day review.

The second guy stayed for a week and a half. Said he had to go pick up his daughter at school, never came back. No calls received, no called returned, nothing.

Third guy seems okay. But our attempt to increase our staffing from 6 to eight collapsed. And then we let somebody else go last week (a long-timer) so we're down to 5.

The person that left on good terms did so because of better pay. The one that simply vanished... well, we're presuming it was better pay.

[Demsrule86]

69. I live in Ohio...check her out. She pays for shit.

[Egnever]

88. Been looking at the help wanted and resume sites lately

and the pay is very seldom mentioned in anything but entry level work.

I don't really need a job I have one already but in order to find out what most of the jobs I am interested in pay I have to apply.

[MichMan]

7. The 6 hired are not enough

Maybe she needs 8 and 10 apply. 6 passed the drug test and were hired still leaving her still short.

[Bradical79]

13. Yeah, possibly -nt

[Mariana]

21. Then she needs a larger pool of applicants.

The way to get that is to pay more, in the form of higher salary, better benefits or both.

[MichMan]

28. Read some of the posts below

Read some of the posts below where people paid very good wages and had the same problem.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

34. Yeah, the usual suspects have anecdotal evidence.

Almost like clockwork.

[Dreamer Tatum]

31. Who said she isn't? nt

[NobodyHere]

4. I like how one of the "paid content" links at the bottom of the article was titled

"How to pass a urine test"

[Atman]

5. Algorithm based upon text

No human placed that ad. FB picked out key words and served up an ad which matched.

[Yavin4]

129. That Algorithm has a sense of irony. n/t

[neeksgeek]

9. It's not just factory jobs

The drug problem is certainly real. And there are plenty of jobs where you really want your people clear-headed and able to act responsibly.

One spring, I got to play the Easter Bunny at a local mall. I looked at it as a photo job, even though I wasn't behind the camera this time. So I was not at all surprised to be asked to submit to both a criminal background check and drug testing, given that for three weeks I'd be working closely with young children.

Anyway to get to my point, of the dozen or so applicants for all positions, five passed the drug test but two were unable to stand wearing the costume (either you can sit in that hot bunny suit for two hours at a stretch, or you can't, it's that simple), and one passed everything but strolled off with our daily earnings one night instead of depositing it to the bank (which worked out well for me, as it gave me extra hours when the manager decided we didn't have time to hire another person in the middle of the season).

It's hard to find people who take a job seriously, but it's also hard to take a job seriously when it's "at will" or doesn't pay that well...

[Hassin Bin Sober]

35. I'm shocked they weren't able to find sober people to wear a bunny costume and get abused...

.... by bratty kids and teenagers with nothing better to do.

I only enjoy a glass of Port at Christmas but I might hit the bottle for that job.

[bhikkhu]

11. Something I know from experience back in 2010

where my sister worked in CA they wanted to move her up, but first she had to find and train a replacement. It was a data processing job related to public services reporting, so there were state standards. The applicant had to pass a drug test, and pass high school level tests in math and english. The job paid $23 an hour, full benefits, and this was at a bad part of the recession. 3000 people applied, only one passed the drug and aptitude tests. As my sister tells me, the one person who passed wasn't one she would have chosen at all - pretty obnoxious personality.

I imagine that most failed the drug test for pot...and I think they would have found many well qualified people if not for that. I work in industry myself, and don't think smoking pot should be any more a disqualifier than drinking.

[tblue37]

29. Especially since it still tests positive for a significant time after use. nt

[Lee-Lee]

14. It's a real issue where I work

And made even worse for us by the addition of a requirement for a pretty high level background check or a security clearance.

The starting wage while still in training here will put you above the average household income for the county on just one salary. Once your off training and cleared to work another 20% jump.

Still we have probably the similar rate of
40% that will fail the initial drug test before hiring or fail another one during their probabitionary year.

[TheBlackAdder]

17. Petition the government for some H-1B Visa workers, just like Disney or Trump Wineries.

[ileus]

19. I know a company that starts @24 bucks an hour with the same problem.

90% of the time when people pass their first test they won't pass the second. Truth is this story isn't rare, it's almost the norm for some professions.

[Warren DeMontague]

20. It's worth asking how many of those "failures" are THC, which is fat soluble and can show up

in a urine test something like a month after last use.

Whereas cocaine will disappear after a few days. And, are they even testing for alcohol?

Because generally, someone who did shots of tequila the night before is gonna a be a worse safety risk than someone who smoked a joint last month.

[Wounded Bear]

22. There is a new test that will detect heavy alcohol use...

for several days after use. I don't think it will be triggered by casual use (1-2 drinks/day, say).

This is the confluence of several deep social problems that don't have simple solutions.

[NutmegYankee]

25. I don't think any employers should be allowed to fire anyone because they use alcohol when at home

Hell, there are religious and cultural reasons to consume alcohol that such a test would directly attack. Abstinence from alcohol is itself a religious tenet - and forcing it on others violates their freedom of conscience. As long as you are not under the influence while at work, it isn't their business.

[Warren DeMontague]

59. Sure, but again

someone having taken a hit off a joint 3 weeks ago doesn't impair their ability to do anything.

[Wounded Bear]

60. Oh, I know...

and the recovery from MJ is probably faster than from alcohol, even though it lingers in fatty tissues. Hopefully, Sessions' attempts to restart the War on Drugs, and particularly the War on MJ wll fall on deaf ears. Local cops probably love that they don't have to treat some kid with a couple of joints on him like he's a dangerous felon.

[socialist_n_TN]

23. Sounds like a problem with the drug laws........

Or pay. Or benefits. I'm SOOO fucking sick of owners who are making a buttload of money off the labor of others, whining when people don't want to work for THEIR idea of what a "fair wage" is.

[X_Digger]

24. What laws are those? If every drug were legal, employers could still choose to drug test..

Whining about drug laws when they don't apply is silly.

[Mariana]

49. They could, but would they really?

How many employers test for OTC drugs that cause drowsiness or other side effects that can seriously impair performance? How often are people fired when they produce a valid prescription for their tranks or their painkillers? It's just a fact that employers generally only test for illegal drug use.

[Lee-Lee]

76. They would for several reasons

First it's often required by their insurance underwriters or bonding companies or both.

Second, it's a character issue thing. There is a proven correlation between illegal drug use and higher incidences of other illegal behavior.

Third, many places do in fact test for the legal drugs that can be abused and will ask for a prescription, and also those same places require notification if you are prescribed anything that can impair you on the job. Where I work there is a long laundry list of things you must report if you are taking, and it's basically anything that has a warning not to drive or operate heavy equipment.

[hack89]

163. Certain dangerous industries can't get insurance without drug testing

most drug testing is driven by insurance.

[X_Digger]

26. My father recently retired after 45 years in home building, same problem.

He was paying about 25-30% above the average for the area for electricians, framers, finish carpenters, roofers, and masons.

He still couldn't get enough folks who a) show up to work on time regularly, b) show up sober and not stoned, c) do the work and not stare at their phones all day, and d) are able to be shown something and retain it.

There at the end, it was him and a bunch of 50-somethings doing most of the work, with a never-ending parade of 20-something stoners doing fetch'n'carry.

[MichMan]

27. Apparently 25% wasn't enough if you read posts above

Based on many of the posts here, it was his fault for not paying them even more.

Don't you know, every single business owner screws his employees while spending the day on their yacht lighting expensive cigars with $100 bills while counting their cash

[X_Digger]

55. Right? Sheesh. n/t

[LanternWaste]

151. It's fun, but irrational to pretend it's only either reason X or Y.

It's fun, but irrational to pretend only reasons X or Y are relevant, and attribute that as an absolute to take a position against.

But I get it... it lets us feel more a lot clever about ourselves than reality may actually warrant.

[Mariana]

50. One wonders how the other employers remained in business.

Maybe all those employees your father rejected weren't so shitty after all.

[X_Digger]

56. They're having the same difficulties.

Yeah, they are that shitty.

That's why the houses are over budget, late on contract, and have warranty claims for years.

Morons with hammers.

[atreides1]

104. What's the average pay for the area?

Just curious!

[X_Digger]

133. Framers & roofers about $15 an hour, finish carpenters around $20. For electricians & plumbers..

.. it depends on skill & experience, master vs journeyman, commercial or just residential.. A journeyman residential electrician w a couple years experience & good references is in the neighborhood of $45k/yr, if they get on with an outfit that keeps them continuously employed. Dad would routinely add $3-7 per hour just to try to get good help.

Heck, my dad would gladly foot the bill for a guy to go to votec and get his certification if they'd commit to staying on for a couple of years- I can't tell you how many local plumbers started out as one of my dad's assistants.

[Squinch]

32. Lots of posts here saying, "I've seen this same thing first hand." Which means that we can

safely discount the ones who advocate eliminating the drug test for a job which is described as impacting on the safety of other employees. We can also safely discount the posts saying, "Well, she's clearly just not paying enough," because others are describing the same situation in jobs that offer a very good salary.

What are we left with? Could it possibly be that the "jobs crisis" in the rust belt we have been hearing about is really just an addiction problem? And could it be that people from the rust belt don't want to acknowledge an addiction crisis because they were the same folks who sneered at "crack hos" in urban areas in the past, and demanded that no help be given to urban addiction problems, and they now find themselves in the same situation? (Urban areas - wink wink, get it?)

Why, I think we have an explanation that fits all the facts!

[Orrex]

42. No doubt that's part of it...

but when I lost my job in 2008, I sent 1,500 resumes (literally, not exaggerating) to businesses in the rust belt. Of that number, I received about 100 responses, the huge majority of which were either minimum-wage-entry-level crap or zero-security sales jobs with no benefits or base pay. I would up working one of the remaining options.

I am confident that addiction here in the rust belt, along with a criminal record and (in some cases) a shitty credit history, can be a major barrier to employment. But despite the protests of self-congratulating would-be employers, there is a serious deficit of solid, livable jobs in the region as well.

[Squinch]

43. Given that you have firsthand experience, I will defer to your knowledge.

[Orrex]

44. Thanks, but your assessment rings very true as well

Alas.

[Squinch]

45. I've always seen it from the side of the "urban blight," knowing that many good families

were caught up in the poverty and hardship through no fault of their own while they were being blamed and called "welfare queens."

I don't doubt that the same is happening in other depressed parts of the country, but I am interested that we seem to need to frame it in an entirely different way.

[Orrex]

46. I agree

In my low-income town, the low-income residents are quick to lay blame upon their fellow residents. When the local Sears announced that it was closing, the residents flooded the town's FB pages with condemnation for failing to spend enough to keep the store afloat.

When I pointed out that the multinational multi-billion dollar company failed due to decades of mismanagement and catastrophic choices, they called me a snowflake and said I needed to open my eyes to reality. The same will likely happen when the town's Kmart folds in a year or so.



Definitely in need of a reframing. In the meantime, it's unfortunate that the people most abused by corporate forces beyond their control seem the most vulnerable to Trump-style lies and false promises.

[Oneironaut]

36. That's total bull. I bet it's the pay.

Usually, when a company whines about a lack of qualified applicants, it's the company's fault. It's like when "nice guys" whine that all women are terrible. It's time to think, "maybe it's me."

[Mariana]

52. I agree.

If they really are paying more than the competition, and the competition is staying in business and making money, there must be some other reason. Maybe they're rejecting good employees for bullshit reasons. Maybe the working conditions suck so bad that people refuse to work for them even if it means a higher wage.

Example of the latter: My brother had a good paying job he enjoyed, but he walked when he was told he had to work seven days a week, every week, and they wouldn't tell him for how long. Word gets around about employers like that. I wonder if his former employer one of those crying about not being able to find enough qualified people to work for a good wage.

[Lee-Lee]

78. My company pays well above the county overage

And we have ratesof failure similar.

People apply knowing there is a drug test and still fail. People know the first year your on probation and will be randomly tested at least 3 times and fail,

People who have been here decades and are making $50+ an hour fail.

[spooky3]

87. Then do you not believe in market forces?

If the supply of qualified workers is too low relative to the employer's needs, then it has to offer more pay, better benefits, better working conditions (tangible or not) or other rewards to entice workers. That's Econ 101.

A company may pay well above a county average, but not for comparable jobs. I may want to hire accountants for $15 per hour, and that may be above county average for workers in general, but not for accountants who do the kind of work I need done under the conditions I offer.

[Lee-Lee]

91. Oh we replace them easily enough- we get more than enough applicants

It's just that I find it to be a strong indicator of just how strong a grip something like opioids can get on a persons life when they are willing to use them knowing they will lose a job that pays $35-50+ an hour that they have lots of experience in- and knowing they won't find a job anywhere in the industry once they are fired for that and in the area they will be lucky to land on their feet making $10 an hour.

It's a pain sometimes when someone with loads of experience tests positive, especially when they are involved in projects because there is no transition and they are just gone that moment.

[spooky3]

119. Thanks for the explanation. Does your company offer

an Employee Assistance Program?

[Lee-Lee]

123. Like a substance abuse assistance program?

If so, no.

Part of that is because the nature of the work is that if you get tested positive your not going to get to keep your security clearance and at best you might get to reapply and get a clearance 3-5 years later and even then it's a long shot and for that reason we won't rehire and try and get you a clearance again.

The only thing there is anything like that for is alcohol. If you text between a .025 and .04 BAC your suspended and must complete an industrial safety program and alcohol assessment before returning to work. .04-.05 can go either way but usually fired on the spot . .05 and up showing up for work and your fired, period.

[spooky3]

125. EAPs don't require that someone test positive

and they are usually cost effective for employers who want to retain good people.

A troubled employee can voluntarily seek confidential referral, and it doesn't have to be for drugs or alcohol abuse. A supervisor can also suggest that the employee seek help. It can be for anything troubling the employee enough to affect performance, e.g., marital problems.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_assistance_program

[demigoddess]

135. I have read that with those drugs some people only have to take one dose and they

are hooked. And a lot of those drugs are prescribed by doctors knowing this. A friend had surgery and was prescribed these drugs for afterward. Hooked, rehab, suicide attempt etc. And it probably only took one dose prescribed by a doctor.

[Mariana]

138. I've heard that too, one dose and they're hooked.

I don't see how it can possibly be true. It takes time for the body to adapt to the constant or frequent presence of an addictive drug before it gets to the point of having withdrawals when the drug is stopped. That just does not happen after only one dose.

The people I've known who got addicted took it for pain at first, then used it for recreational purposes long after the pain was gone.

[demigoddess]

149. this person was not a recreational use kind of person.

and there have been some alcoholics I have heard describe their first swig of alcohol as an explosion of reaction and they felt hooked from that moment. This was years ago. I believe that some people or their brains are predisposed to becoming hooked on some chemicals. Think about it.

[Mariana]

159. In other words, they liked their first drink a whole lot.

So those future alcoholics kept drinking more and more, until one day, they found out they had to drink on schedule or they would get sick. How is that different than taking a drug that provides a high? There are no withdrawals early on, there is no dependency. It just makes them feel good, and they really enjoy that feeling, so they keep on taking it, and end up addicted.

[demigoddess]

161. denial is a river in egypt.

[Egnever]

89. What part are they failing?

If it's pot well time to revisit that portion. If the company does not care if people drink they are fools if they discriminate against POT.

[Lee-Lee]

95. Our hands are pretty much tied

Most all our jobs require a security clearance and any illegal drug use throws that off, and the industrial and federal safety standards for the job also all demand totally drug free workplaces- plus the insurance carriers.

FWIW at least 2-3 times a month HR and security will also be waiting to meet a certain shift/department with breathalyzers and everyone is tested. And everyone as they check in for every shift security if they suspect they are intoxicated they get tested.

They take safety very, very, very seriously and that is just part of it. If you show up for work with a blood alcohol level over .025 once your sent home and must complete a safety training and alcohol assessment before returning to work. Second time you gone. If you show up with a BAC over .05 you fired, first time.

[Egnever]

100. There are certainly positions that it is appropriate to test everyone

The vast majority are not.

If they test for alcohol and prescription drugs then I have no issue with them testing for POT. If they couldn't care less about alcohol or prescription drugs then they need to push back against testing for pot.

[kcr]

150. No, it couldn't possibly be, because...

My aunt's best friend's 3rd cousin once removed offered 200 dollars an hour to farm botox snails in Peoria, and STILL couldn't find anyone that wanted the job. It's true! I swear. All those druggies in the Rust Belt, what can ya do?

[Leith]

38. It's Pretty Hard to Find Reviews of This Company Online

There is very little on Glassdoor, Yelp, Manta, Indeed, etc. I found out about the trial where an exec was accused of embezzling $2 million. Other similar companies in the area start pay at around $13 an hour, so that's probably close to the going rate. They have terrible ratings from employees, too.

Finally, on page 4 of google, there was a nice little news item. The company "laid off" 4 workers for talking to union reps. The excuse was a slowdown in work, but the backlog was long. After a court trial, they got their jobs back.

I think we found a reason besides workers not passing drug tests. People within an industry, especially employees, know each other and talk about employers, jobs, and working conditions. Apparently employers treat workers like shit. No wonder they can't find people to fill jobs. Those who meet all their criteria are already working for companies that treat them better.

There are always two sides to a story. The link told one side only.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

41. I figured as much.

[Dreamer Tatum]

48. Other examples were cited, and I have my own experiences as well.

People fail drug tests for jobs right and left. It's a problem.

Consider the opiod epidemic - you don't think that shows up in drug screens?

[Leith]

54. Of Course It Does

And in a dangerous workplace like a metal fabrication factory, it would be a real problem. But, 40% of possible hires? A person who is looking for a job usually holds off on taking drugs that would show up in a drug test.

Although this particular company doesn't show up in Glassdoor or Indeed reviews, similar companies in the area do. The best employee rating for them was 2 stars out of 5. The pay varied between $13 and $22 per hour. Warren Fabricating has already fired employees for talking to union reps (see my link above). They are hardly paragons of virtue in the employer part.

[riversedge]

58. So, the nytimes and cnn does a story but you find other important factors. good for you.

[hatrack]

63. Was curious, so checked the company and town out (briefly)

Hubbard is part of the Youngstown MSA, but not a big part - about 7,500 inhabitants, per Wikipedia, and way the heck over by Pennsylvania; maybe a couple miles from the state line.

The company did have an advertisement on Indeed. The ad was looking for CNC horizontal mill operators, and didn't say anything about pay, though it did mention a 401k and insurance. It also preferred five years' experience.

So, if you have five years experience, and you're working in Detroit, or Cleveland or Akron, why would you . . . move to Hubbard?

I also found a state EPA violation against the company for violating hazardous waste laws back in 2011, for whatever that's worth.

http://chagrin.epa.ohio.gov/edoc/images/112000/1120000035.pdf

[KentuckyWoman]

132. THIS

[xor]

158. I was trying to find some stuff on them too.

Mostly how much they pay and benefits. Didn't have much luck.

Interesting stuff about the union talk firings. I'd be curious to see what current and former employees say about the company. Maybe some more stuff will come out now that this "can't find anyone" story has out there.

[theaocp]

47. I'm amazed the lack of managerial oversight hasn't been mentioned.

Seriously. Here's the deal: you want to cheapen your business? No worries! Just put a drug test in place of actual human oversight and judgment! Why pay a human when a biological (and inaccurate) test will tell you all you need to know?

Look. If you can't tell if your employee is a dipshit, unsafe fuckup during an interview or after a short time on the job, maybe you're the problem. Drug tests tell you jackshit about a person that you should pick up on by simply OBSERVING YOUR WORKPLACE. It seriously ain't that fucking hard.

But why do that when there's EZ piece of mind and money to be made by drug testing companies? Where's the fucking fun in that?

[Adrahil]

62. Sorry, that's just not reasonable.

You cannot expect a shop foreperson to be an expert on the subject matter, manage the people and schedules, AND be able to determine of someone is impaired by just looking at them.

[theaocp]

71. There's the problem.

You're putting those duties on ONE person. We can do this cheap and fuck over the employees or we can do this right. Hire enough people to do the job or admit that we're just too damn lazy and greedy. 'Murica.

Oh, and who said observation is just about looking at people? Christ our managers must be snowflakes. Can't be expected to rise above the bare minimum or they fucking melt.

[Adrahil]

73. We have a ten person shop.

How many forepersons do you want for a 10-person shop? And what happens if they miss an impaired person who is good at hiding it? Are they personally liable? Does the company become liable?


It's pretty easy to throw stones from the sidelines....

[theaocp]

75. Hahahahaha

So, your solution is to abdicate managerial responsibility for the shop? Okay, then. If they miss an impaired person who CAN FAKE A PASSED TEST, I guess you're fucked. What other searches of you are you okay with in the name of security?

[Adrahil]

136. Are you seriously asking or just being snarky?

'Cause I'm not interested in trading potshots.

Whether you like it or not safety and security is a priority in our shop. We've had no major accidents in over 10 years.

[cannabis_flower]

156. He's right you know..

You do know that it's relatively easy to cheat a drug test? Especially if it's unobserved.

Perhaps we should be doing this instead:

http://www.predictivesafety.com/news/2017/2/6/the-advantages-of-impairment-testing-over-drug-testing-to-improve-workplace-safety

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

67. I had a boss who an unhinged cokehead

Unless you were actually attempting to have a conversation with him mere observation wouldn't give away that he was tripping balls.

[theaocp]

72. Did they run the company?

If they did, why the fuck did you work there, unless it didn't matter? If they didn't, why didn't you report them to their superiors?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

99. Mid-Late 20's me wasn't going to snitch on my boss

but I quit for other reasons.

[theaocp]

103. Hahahahaha

Right! So you were okay with an "unhinged cokehead" as your superior and you're not a snitch. Thanks for playing!

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

105. It wasn't matter of not being a snitch, it was a matter of fearing retaliation

[theaocp]

113. Good to know the line you won't (wouldn't) cross, regarding

an "unhinged cokehead" that you worked under. Aye.

[Lee-Lee]

79. Try to get any insurance for any kind of place

That does manual labor, works with equipment that can be dangerous or produces products that can have liability attached without showing you do drug screenings.

If, big if, you can find it you will pay a ton more for it.

Your going to find that any insurance company for a company that does anything listed above will demand a drug screening program be in place.

[theaocp]

80. I know, right?

Somebody's gotta get paid. The results will be the same, as far as output, but the drug testers get paid for false security, the insurance companies will "keep their premiums lower" (HA!; bribe me!), and the managers are off the hook for actually doing part of their damn job. Yay!

[Lee-Lee]

90. Well, no- drug and alcohol use on the job is a leading cause of industrial accident

And it is perfectly smart to test for it.

[theaocp]

96. Based on what?

I've searched and can't find anything to corroborate what you're claiming. What drugs are you referring to? And alcohol? You need to test for something that is unbelievably legal? This is bullshit.

[Lee-Lee]

106. Take any kind of industrial safety course

And yes, in fact my employer does do random breathalyzer tests to oncoming shifts and the security guys who check you in will flag you for a test if you appear or smell intoxicated.

It's fine to be a but tipsy if you scooping ice cream or stocking a store shelf, I guess. But when you have people doing jobs that have catastrophic consequences for mistakes that shits not acceptable. Do you want the engineer on your commuter train high or drunk? How about that driver of the semi truck on the road behind you with a tank trailer full of gasoline? Or the person who is repairing that pressure vessel in a large chemical plant that has to hold 5000psi of a dangerous chemical? Or the person working in a nuclear power facility?

Anything that can impair your judgement or motor skills has no place in those environments.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

109. But that is like fascism maaaaaaaaaaan

I have pain and shit.

[theaocp]

114. When the pain comes for you, don't bitch. n/t

[theaocp]

111. You said "leading cause" and have yet to back that up with anything.

Near as I can tell, you have anecdotes and bluster. Anything else of substance or are you sticking with fear and poor management?

[Lee-Lee]

120. I said "a leading cause"

Not "the leading cause" it's in the top 5 in many industries and the top 10 overall.

For example in the trucking industry use of drugs (legal or illegal) or alcohol is found in over 20% of accidents.

Here is an article with some details:

http://smallbusiness.chron.com/problems-associated-drug-alcohol-abuse-workplace-1238.html

Thats just the first one I found that wasn't a study in a journal behind a paywall, if you want more detailed data it's easily found in many studies, but most of the actual peer reviewed studies are behind paywalls.

If your actually trying to argue that allowing people to show up to work in dangerous occupations while intoxicated I suspect you need to be intoxicated in some way to even think that's a good idea.

[krawhitham]

51. So take 16 applicants and hire the 10 that paased

[Skittles]

53. STOP DEMONIZING POT SMOKERS

ENOUGH ALREADY

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

65. Or, if it is really affecting your career prospects

stop smoking pot.

[theaocp]

74. 'Murica.

You're really okay with this? Why not just prohibit alcohol again while you're at it, you law-abiding citizen, you!

[Warren DeMontague]

145. Agreed. Testing someone for THC from weed they smoked last month has zero relationship to

their ability to do a job.

[rock]

57. She invades their civil liberties in the job interview

And they won't take the low-paying(?) job? Wonder why?

[Adrahil]

61. My company has had trouble keeping machinists.

The last 3 all failed their drug tests.

It's important to understand that machinists are often operating dangerous machines that injure or kill the operator and others in the area. It's no joke.

One came into work visibly impaired on the day of the drug test (and it's not like the tests are that rare).

[Demsrule86]

66. Oh please...it is pot smokers...and I am sick of the 'man' telling folks what they can do

during down time.

[Adrahil]

70. In our case, Pot has not been the problem.

It's been alcohol and meth.

If they smoke pot it has not been in high enough concentrations to be really a problem.

My company does not care what you do in your off time, so long as you can pass the tests. we're concerned about impairment, not recreational activities.

Of course, recreational drug use has security clearance implications for those who hold them (some machinists do).

[EllieBC]

137. It's not just pot. The Cleveland Clinic banned smoking...even at home.

For all of their employees. Yes it's kinda crazy but no one has to give you a job. Even up here many employers drug test and if you break equipment or get hurt on the job you bet they are drug testing you then too.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

64. I used to work somewhere where we would take bets on what candidates would test positive for

I would go by address and either bet on heroin or meth. If they were from the coast I would bet on heroin, if they were from points east I would bet on meth.

HR usually favored applicants with Hispanic names because they were the most likely to pass the drug test.

[theaocp]

77. Low bar, brother.

We all know those with Hispanic names are hard workers and are more easily-bullied, too, amiright? At least, HR knows that "truth". What other stereotypes are lurking around your HR department? Probably nothing else.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

92. They knew they generally passed drug tests

Which were something like $65 per person.

[theaocp]

98. Um, so what?

Anything you'd like to comment on, regarding the REST of my post? What other suppositions does your HR dept work under?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

102. How would I know? I haven't worked there in 13 years

But I trusted their assessment that the local white population were disproportionately drug addicts, they would get pretty frustrated when they interviewed and tested four of five people only to have all of them come back positive for meth.

[theaocp]

108. I know, right?

Meth addicts are so hard to pick out during a job interview. But damn if they don't already know Pablo Hernandez is likely going to pass his test! They have everything to fear, so they won't make waves! Yay!

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

81. Reading through this thread

I can only conclude that some huge percentage of companies are chronically short-staffed because they cannot find employees who can pass a drug test. And that some huge percentage of otherwise employable people aren't working because they can't pass a drug test.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

82. Ohio is where they have an opiate problem.

[sharedvalues]

83. Support health care for all

And maybe your prospective employees will be healthy.



This is what most Western countries do - health care for all means companies and the rich can hire better, healthier employees.

[sharedvalues]

86. HEALTH CARE FOR ALL means CEOs can hire good workers!!

Sorry I had to repost in caps.

This is the WHOLE POINT of the healthcare debate. GOP billionaires want to get the government out of healthcare. Who is supposed to keep their workers healthy??? Now GOP donors also want govt out of education. When will they wake up to realize they have no educated workers????

Remember Elizabeth Warren:

“There is nobody in this country who got rich on their own. Nobody. You built a factory out there - good for you. But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn't have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory... Now look. You built a factory and it turned into something terrific or a great idea - God bless! Keep a hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.”


― Elizabeth Warren

[Egnever]

85. Easy fix

Stop testing for POT

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

93. Or you know, just stop smoking it.

That works too.

[Egnever]

94. I wouldn't want to work for a company that tests for pot

Cause it would be very apparent they are ignorant assholes. I am quite sure that ignorance would show up elsewhere as well.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

97. That is your choice

just don't complain if you can't find a job.

[Egnever]

101. If you are paying attention to the thread

it's not the job seekers complaining.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

107. The employers are complaining about sobriety

If you're a habitual marijuana user, you aren't sober.

[Egnever]

110. But you are if you drink yourself to sleep every night...

Riiiiight..

Pot can show up on tests a month after you smoke it or even go to a concert. You do not need to even smoke it to fail. Ignorance is awesome!

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

115. I have spent a lot of time around marijuana use while never having smoked it

I have never failed a drug test.

If marijuana is more important to you than a specific job, that is a decision that you're free to make.

[Egnever]

116. Yea how often are you tested? And are you certain they tested for POT?

In Nevada when drug testing first started the Casinos could not get enough clean workers and then they stopped testing for pot and the issue went away. I know they stopped testing because I passed tests even though I had smoked that same week.

And again you don't even have to smoke it to fail.

http://herb.co/2016/12/16/drug-test-actually-clean/

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

117. I'm tested about three to five times a year

and yes they test for pot.

[Egnever]

118. So if you are often around it how is it you come out clean?

And I notice you seem to be fine with someone who drinks themselves to sleep but not if they smoke pot on the weekends. Sounds more like a bias than an actual position.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

121. I don't have a problem with chosing not to hire or firing marijuana users

I probably pass drug tests because there is a discernible threshold between ambient exposure and Spliff the Bike Courier.

I don't really care either way if it is legalized or people choose to accept the professional, social and criminal consequences of using it.

People get fired all the time for alcohol related issues.

[Egnever]

126. Fair enough

I don't have a problem with them hiring or firing based on it either. It is their choice IMHO. That said if you are looking for workers, and if you are filtering them by pot use or non use, I think you are doing yourself a disservice.

My original post that you replied to was simply advocating that as an easy fix to this business persons woes.

I do care though if people are criminalized because of it. It is completely ridiculous for anyone to be criminalized for pot. A tragedy in our society. Between alcohol and pot the risk differences are not even similar yet drinking is often encouraged in our workplace. Not nearly as it used to be but power lunches are still a thing.

If we are willing to accept Alcohol in our society as socially normal and acceptable then criminalizing pot is hypocrisy.

[Warren DeMontague]

128. I think it's fucking inane, frankly.

You've acknowledged you're opining, here, about a substance you've got strong feelings about but little actual knowledge.

I can tell you that, while sure, there are people with pot problems just like anything else, someone showing up for THC in a piss test because they smoked it 3 weeks ago has absofuckinglutely zip diddly shit to do with whether they should be qualified or disqualified for a job.

"tough", you say, just stop smoking the evil weed. Fine. But the flip side of that is organizations that, due to the combination of a stupid rule and science- namely that THC's fat solubility causes it to remain testable far longer than more significant substances, like cocaine- or alcohol for that matter- they are needlessly locking themselves out of a large field of otherwise qualified hires.

It's enough of a real problem that no less than James Comey had to propose a little fudging of the FBI's rules, to hire qualified computer people...

http://nypost.com/2017/04/06/comey-may-relax-fbi-admissions-for-hacker-recruits/

---because for all the "stop smoking weed" granny fingerwaggitude, the fact of the matter is that the pot people will just laugh and go and find better paying jobs, cutting edge technology gigs where even the CEO gets high, and no one gives a fuck.


Meanwhile, it's they dying, calcified, stuck-in-the-past industries that are holding on to these outdated attitudes about the thing.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

134. If using marijuana is just that important to you, knock yourself out. I don't care.

I actually don't have strong feelings, I just think it is important to acknowledge that consequences exist, just like having a tattoo on your neck has consequences.

If you can smoke pot and still realize all your dreams, that is just great. But not everybody is going to be able to avail themselves of a "chill" workplace in a cutting-edge industry, some people are just going to have to pass a drug test to land that $15 an hour job.

[Mariana]

139. Perhaps you didn't notice

but the OP is not about workers complaining they didn't get jobs. It's about an employer who is whining that she can't find enough people to hire under the limitations she has chosen. What advice do you have for her?

[Warren DeMontague]

141. STOP SMOKING THEM MARIJUANAS, KIDS

Fucking seriously. I'd complain about DU being taken over by the shuffleboard set, but I don't want to be accused of triggering someone with my ageist hate speech.

[Warren DeMontague]

140. Right, and I realize that things are still one way, down in Crewcut, Sandiego.

Drive north sometime, though, and you'll realize that it's not about what you or I want. It's about industries that can't cut themselves off from the talent pool over something stupid like who smoked a joint 3 weeks ago.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

142. At least get it right, I'm from Dana Rohrabacherland

[Warren DeMontague]

143. Point is, even the FBI- bastion of East Coast uptight establishment- cant find pot-free tech support

it's really well past time for cannabis prohibitionists to get over their bad selves.

Especially since there's absolutely zero reason why someone who smoked a joint 3 weeks ago is going to have it affect their ability to do effectively do a job, ANY job; unless maybe that job is "spokesperson for an anti-marijuana legalization organization".

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

144. Am I not sufficiently on the record as saying I don't care either way?

I don't care how this plays out. I don't use marijuana and I don't know very many people who do being the square that I am, but no matter how this plays out the use of marijuana isn't going to be stripped of social or professional consequences. Techbro San Francisco is not the bellwether for the American workplace.

[Warren DeMontague]

146. And slapping "bro" on the end of every other word isn't exactly the height of linguistic creativity,

either.

Maybe it might be worth looking at places that actually are creating 21st century jobs- like, you know, those annoying "techbro" ones- and how they go about doing things, versus the places that are hemorrhaging them like a puncture wound victim.


Just a thought.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

147. "techbro" describes something pretty specific.

such as "cutting edge technology gigs where even the CEO gets high".

My girlfriend who has been in silicon valley for twenty-five years describes Techbros (and their hip-hop inspired female equivalent) as people who in years past would have gone into Big Accounting, Big Law or Wall Street but faced with diminishing prospects in all of those fields decided "tech" was their next best alternative, except for the slight inconvenience that other a couple programming electives they have no technical skills worth mentioning and are ostracized by traditional silicon valley.

[Warren DeMontague]

148. Fine. Either way, where are the new jobs being created?

It's not Detroit.

Also, if you think "Traditional Silicon Valley" doesn't smoke a fuckton of cannabis... again, you're not paying attention.

[EX500rider]

157. Really?

I am a HazMat driver, the insurance company makes my company do drug tests.

[LanternWaste]

152. So does refraining from posting the absurd and pretending it's clever...

"That works too..."

So does refraining from posting the absurd and pretending it's clever... yet it's still done.

[doc03]

122. My niece hires for McDonalds same thing over half of the applicants

can't pass a drug test. Then nearly half the people she hires never turn up for work. They have been operating with about half the staff
they should have.

[Egnever]

127. To be fair

McDonalds is a pretty shitty job when you are a worker.

[MichMan]

130. Much better than being unemployed nm

[LanternWaste]

153. More meaningless bumper stickers masquerading as thought...

More meaningless bumper stickers masquerading as rational thought...

[doc03]

162. The gas drilling industry needs truck drivers and other jobs. They have a

hard time finding people here that can pass a drug test. These are fairly good paying jobs but they have problems finding
people so many drivers and other workers come from other states and Mexico..

[Johnny2X2X]

131. She's not paying.

Know some small business owners that are fantastic people, but let's be honest, they are the exception to the rule.

The main difference between rich corporate types and rich small business owners is this. Rich corporate types get rich off the backs of people they'll never even meet. Small business owners get rich off the backs of people they see every day, people who they know as well as they know their families. With some exceptions they are both greedy and would gladly see people suffer if it means they get just a little bit more for themselves.

[haele]

154. Manufacturing work is not the same as it was back in the day.

A lot of new job seekers or "retrained" workers sometimes have this media presented romanticized view of "go to work, go home, get paid well" idea of manufacturing jobs that supposedly happened back in the WWII/Post war era - under Union protections, I might add.

What many people who haven't worked in the trades all their lives don't understand is that what happens after "go to work" is damn hard, repetitious, uncomfortable, and often dangerous. And you're under constant scrutiny. It becomes even more difficult when it's "drone" piece work (like a lot of machinery work is); not only does your work constantly need to be within a specific Sigma range, you need to keep pumping your work out piece after piece after piece for the next guy or the robot on the line until you're finally allowed to take a break.

So there's no time to take a break or sit down - no "chatting with the guy next to you" on the line to be able to take a breather and refocus, no checking in with that needy significant other on a regular basis - no work at your own pace. Crane operators and welders have it a bit easier, but there's still the schedule to maintain, and if management is pushing the schedule because the margin they bid with to get the work was narrow (as it typically is), no matter what your job is, burn out is a real issue.

People who've just left school or have worked in the service sector most of their lives aren't really used to that sort of work.

Honestly, we no longer live in a world where the majority of kids are working on a farm or at the family business over the summer, or they've got home ec., shop and light manufacturing training at High Schools where the expectations for consistent speed and consistent quality are drilled into them, and they're taught the stamina and habits to be able to stick to a job until it's finished. The other situation we have now that we didn't have "back then" (I guess the 70's through 90's?), is that there is a greater ability for people to change jobs and work pretty much from anywhere - between flex work, "independent contracting" (i.e., at will employment), and service industry 9-5 jobs that where people find ways to innovate, be creative, or even just have a bit more "take a breath" time than they would for the same amount of pay as they would in manufacturing.

Not saying we're softer or more casual with our work ethic, but the majority of work out there is different than it was even in the 1990's. And more people are less willing to put up with the constant physical effort and mental pressure that working a clock-based manufacturing or line/piece fabrication work requires. Especially since if it's not a Union shop, or if the product being manufactured does not have a high selling point, they're typically not getting paid compensatory to their effort and the wear and tear on both their bodies and minds.

It's hard work. I know I can't do that sort of work regularly any more.

Haele

[delisen]

155. America stopped being America

when people started lining up to urinate in a bottle to get a job.

It is the ultimate otherization.

Any job requiring a drug test should pay at least $80.00 per hour or be done by a robot.

And as for robots every American should be be issued a robot displacement pass. Your RDP will entitle you to one median income for one year plus health care, as re-imbursement for allowing the use of robots in the American economy.

Your pass can be renewed annually after proof of 120 hours of community service performed; with totally disabled persons exempt from this requirement.

[onethatcares]

160. that's a great idea

one that should be discussed by our representatives when they aren't trying to screw over the working man in search of
"campaign funds"

Looking around, I see a lot of things that could be done by volunteers or even a government run infrastructure department.

But hell, what do I know?

[delisen]

164. You know lots more than politicians frozen in the past.