Stone Mt. - Needs to be dynamited

[packman]

?w=640

Democratic gubernatorial candidate Stacey Abrams called for the removal of the giant carving that depicts three Confederate war leaders on the face of state-owned Stone Mountain, saying it “remains a blight on our state and should be removed.”

“We must never celebrate those who defended slavery and tried to destroy the union,” Abrams said in a series of tweets posted early Tuesday, a response to the deadly violence sparked by white supremacist groups in Charlottesville, Va.

Removing the faces of Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson would take a monster of a sandblaster and require a change in state law. The Georgia code has a clear mandate for the memorial, saying it should be “preserved and protected for all time as a tribute to the bravery and heroism of the citizens of this state who suffered and died in their cause




http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2017/08/15/abrams-calls-for-removal-of-confederate-faces-off-stone-mountain/

[B2G]

1. No. nt

[kwassa]

10. Yes.

[XRubicon]

24. Go away. nt

[Towlie]

87. Imagine

I'm not suggesting or advocating anything here, just offering something you might find fun to imagine.

[uppityperson]

180. Exactly

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

177. WAY overdue to remove this blight... along with the pix of slave owners that adorn U.S. currency.

[Demsrule86]

188. You play into the GOP hands if you start that.

[Loki Liesmith]

2. Turn it into a rock climbing venue

[OnDoutside]

3. Re-sculpt to change the horses to donkeys.

[hlthe2b]

4. Personally, I think it could stay as long as they add the lessons of history as in my sigline

in VERY BIG LETTERS:

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- George Santayana

[Raine1967]

82. I really like this solution.

That would make it much better.

They could also stop playing the Dixie trilogy at the nightly laser shows.

[riversedge]

119. It could be an outdoor museum.

[janx]

134. It is an outdoor museum.

At least it appeared that way many years ago when I visited.

[ProudLib72]

5. Add tRump riding McConnell as a big turtle

tRump can be holding a pole out in front of McConnell with ACHA tied to it. In his other hand, tRump can be holding a bucket of KFC.

[tymorial]

127. Lol that made me spit out my coffee.

Well done.

[LenaBaby61]

184. "Add tRump riding McConnell as a big turtle ....

tRump can be holding a pole out in front of McConnell with ACHA tied to it. In his other hand, tRump can be holding a bucket of KFC."

Thanks for making me almost spill my grapefruit juice in my lap

The visuals ... HILARIOUS my friend

[Angry Dragon]

6. Are we becoming the Taliban??

[B2G]

8. Apparently. nt

[kwassa]

11. Lee is not Buddha.

Lee was a traitor to the United States, and a major leader of the pro-slavery cause.

Buddha is kind of the opposite.

[Angry Dragon]

15. destroying history is not the answer

[kwassa]

19. It isn't history, it is propaganda.

White supremacist propaganda about the mythical Lost Cause, and the nobility of the South.

[Angry Dragon]

21. propaganda is only propaganda if you let it be

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

58. not to mention it's a recent, tacky addition, completed in the 60s

The Taliban were destroying priceless artifacts, thousands of years old.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

29. Are the Germans and France destroying history by outlawing swastikas and Nazi symbols?

[Angry Dragon]

50. outlawing new ones is fine

[HarmonyRockets]

93. You do know that...

these carvings were made in the 1960's, right? They aren't historical.

[Angry Dragon]

95. I believe they were started in the 1920's

[HarmonyRockets]

99. And what was their purpose

back in the 1920s?

[Angry Dragon]

101. don't know

[jberryhill]

130. You don't know?

Then perhaps you might do well to learn the RELEVANT HISTORY.

There is a REASON why Stone Mountain got a specific call-out in MLK's "I have a dream" speech.

Do you know what that reason is?

Don't lecture others about history about which you are ignorant.

There is a REASON why this sculpture was started in the 1920's.

You need to learn that reason.

[jberryhill]

136. This thread is about the sculpture at Stone Mountain

The sculpture at Stone Mountain has no relevance to your question.

That sculpture is at that place for a specific reason.

You have indicated you are ignorant of the history which that sculpture represents. Given that ignorance, perhaps you might want to figure out what that history is, and why it got a specific call out from MLK.

[Angry Dragon]

139. I thought the carving had slavey as the foundation

without slavery and the slavers Stone Mountain would not exist nor the Civil War

[jberryhill]

144. Yah, and without geology, the mountain wouldn't be there

It would behoove you to understand the history of this sculpture, but it is clear that you intend to remain ignorant of it, while using "history" as some sort of justification for why it is there and who put it there.

[Angry Dragon]

146. KKK

Now answer my question

[LenaBaby61]

185. You don't know?

+1,000

[Spider Jerusalem]

100. By a sculptor who was a white supremacist and Klan member.

On the site of the founding of the "modern" Klan.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2015/7/12/1400279/-Mount-Rushmore-the-KKK-and-sanitized-American-history

Even more than the birth of the second KKK, the Confederate memorial gave Stone Mountain notoriety throughout the twentieth century. A product of the Lost Cause era, the memorial was originally conceived as a symbol of the white South. In 1914 the Atlanta division of the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC) advocated for the creation of an organization to lead the construction of a memorial on the side of Stone Mountain. Caroline Helen Jemison Plane, the leader of the Atlanta UDC chapter, incorporated the Stone Mountain Confederate Monumental Associaction (SMCMA) in 1916 and shortly thereafter solicited the suport of renowned sculptor Gutzon Borglum, a northerner who had also designed the presidents' heads featured on Mount Rushmore in South Dakota.

Plane originally wanted Borglum to create a memorial featuring Robert E. Lee leading Confederate troops and KKK members across the mountain's summit, but the final memorial did not include KKK members. World War I (1917-18) delayed the project until 1923. Then, in 1925, with only the head of Lee carved, a growing rift between the sculptor and the SMCMA over artistic control ended with the association firing Borglum, thereby halting construction. With the Great Depression of the 1930s, the Confederate memorial remained unfinished. In 1941 Governor Eugene Talmadge formed the Stone Mountain Memorial Association (SMMA) to continue work on the memorial, but the project was delayed once again by the U.S. entry into World War II (1941-45).

It was not until the 1950s that interest in (and funding for) the completion of the Confederate memorial was revived. As the civil rights movement gained momentum, segregationists hoped that the memorial would serve as a reminder of white supremacy.

http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/articles/geography-environment/stone-mountain

[Angry Dragon]

104. I say what the fuck .............

You destroy everything you don't like
I will destroy everything I don't like
The next person can destroy everything they do not like
and on down the line until everyone has destroyed everything they do not like
and then everyone will be happy
and we can all live in love and harmony

so endth the lesson

[Spider Jerusalem]

106. "but these emblems of white supremacy are HISTORY!"

If you're making that argument, you're on the side of the white supremacists.

[Angry Dragon]

107. don'tyou even fucking go there.......... next are you going to call me a racist??

[Spider Jerusalem]

108. I'm calling you someone who's okay with racism; you can decide if that makes you a racist (n/t)

[Angry Dragon]

110. No ..... I am one that can see the difference between an idol and art

unlike you it seems can only see one thing

Was Lee a racist??
Was Washington a racist??

[Spider Jerusalem]

111. Kindly explain to me how, exactly...

a carving that was created specifically to glorify white supremacy in the South can be seen absent from that context. Explain to me how Washington, who was instrumental in the creation of the United States, is comparable to Lee, who fought against the United States. (Assuming you can, that is.)

[Angry Dragon]

114. I will try

I get the sense that you feel a creation can be tainted for the reasons it was created.
I am not from the South so perhaps I have a different view. I see a craving. I do not see what you seem to see.
I am sure that there are plenty of Native Americans that would not feel bad if Mount Rushmore turned into rubble. For the way whites have treated them.

Washington, as a British soldier, is thought to have been the spark that started the French and Indian Wars. He was a slave owner, that would make him a white supremacist and a racist. Lee was a great general, an honorable man, and after his defeat worked to heal the wounds of the country. Was he a traitor?? I do not know. Was he torn?? It was a young country, I think a lot of people felt
more allegiance to their state than the country. Sometimes it ishard to truly know what is a man's heart.

Should these monuments be worshiped?? NO!! Should they be learned from?? YES!!

You may not like what I wrote, so be it. It is the best I can do at this time.

[Spider Jerusalem]

115. What can we learn from Stone Mountain?

"Some white supremacists wanted to put up an enormous monument to the Klan but ran out of money and had to settle for a monument to the leaders of a rebellion fought for the right to enslave human beings, instead"?

And Washington was the commanding general of the Continental Army, rejected a crown, and set a model of honorable service and willing retirement to private life that American presidents since have mostly followed. Lee? He went to fight for slavery. The secession ordinances of the seceding states make it abundantly clear that they went to war to preserve slavery. The Confederacy was the aggressor; the first shots weren't fired by the Union troops at Fort Sumter.

And unlike you, I am from the South; I have ancestors who owned slaves and fought for the Confederacy (neither of which I'm particularly proud of). That's something that should be remembered, but it shouldn't be memorialised. There are no statues of Hitler in Germany, yet somehow they've managed to not forget what he did.

[Angry Dragon]

116. I will reply later today, I will ponder my reply ............ night

[Angry Dragon]

123. Much of what you say is true

Some of what you say is wrong
I hear people say the Holocaust never happened, I see Nazi walking in the streets saying they are the victims
It does seem some have forgotten Hitler

The last long post I sent, were the facts wrong

I have no ghosts from he Civil War??

[Spider Jerusalem]

124. And you don't see people sayng the Confederacy was noble?

A treasonous rebellion in the name of slavery, noble? How is that different to saying "the Nazis were the victims"? Do the statues, monuments, and memorials to the Confederacy not perpetuate the lie?

[Angry Dragon]

125. yes to your first question.......is not different to your third question

yes they do to the fourth

Tell you what ............... melt all the statues and I get to keep Stone Mountain

[Spider Jerusalem]

126. You're not a Southerner; you're not a Georgian, you have no dog in this fight.

Unless it's because you're white and you think the Confederacy was awesome, maybe?

[Angry Dragon]

132. Now there you go again trying to smear me again as a racist

Perhaps because I am not those things I can see more than one view..............
It seems you have ghosts and guilt and that is too bad ....... a lot of emotion with your view

From my mountain in the north I see a lot of people treating the Confederacy as a religion or part of their religion

I only stated that it would sadden me if Stone Mountain was destroyed. Not because I am in favor of any kind of evil

[Spider Jerusalem]

135. If you're sad at a symbol of white supremacy being gone? Then you kind of are in favour of evil!

Either you support symbols of white supremacy, or you don't. It's really that simple.

[Angry Dragon]

137. For you it is that simple

I see a carving

[Spider Jerusalem]

138. A carving put up to celebrate white supremacy.

That was the intention. You argue in favour of it, you argue in favour of that.

[Angry Dragon]

140. I argue for he carving for the art, nothing,nothing,nothing more

[Spider Jerusalem]

141. It was expressly political in intent. It can't be divorced from that.

[Angry Dragon]

142. It was religious in intent

[Spider Jerusalem]

143. "White supremacy" isn't a religion (n/t)

[Angry Dragon]

145. In the South it sure as hell is

I say all people that owned slaves are racist and we need to destroy all statues and memorials to them because according to you intent is all important

[Spider Jerusalem]

148. This isn't just because they owned slaves?

It's because they started a war to maintain the right to own slaves. They lost. There is nothing in what they did deserving of honour.

[Spider Jerusalem]

150. Which is bullshit. It was "states' rights to own slaves".

EVERY seceding Southern state made it clear they were seceding because of slavery. There is not a serious historian who will say it wasn't about slavery.

[Angry Dragon]

155. Okay ...... time for you to provide links .... ...

[Humanist_Activist]

158. Seriously?

https://www.civilwar.org/learn/articles/reasons-secession

Decent overview.

Some primary sources:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/csapage.asp

[Spider Jerusalem]

159. since you don't know how to use Google, apparently:

https://www.civilwar.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states

ctrl+f "slavery"

[Angry Dragon]

165. There you go attacking me again......... thank you

[Angry Dragon]

171. I believe we are both right

Causes Of The Civil War

Video:
Causes of the Civil War

The causes of the Civil War and its cost to a young nation.



More from Wes about the causes of the Civil War.

What led to the outbreak of the bloodiest conflict in the history of North America?

A common explanation is that the Civil War was fought over the moral issue of slavery.

In fact, it was the economics of slavery and political control of that system that was central to the conflict.

A key issue was states' rights.

The Southern states wanted to assert their authority over the federal government so they could abolish federal laws they didn't support, especially laws interfering with the South's right to keep slaves and take them wherever they wished.

Another factor was territorial expansion.

The South wished to take slavery into the western territories, while the North was committed to keeping them open to white labor alone.

Meanwhile, the newly formed Republican party, whose members were strongly opposed to the westward expansion of slavery into new states, was gaining prominence.

The election of a Republican, Abraham Lincoln, as President in 1860 sealed the deal. His victory, without a single Southern electoral vote, was a clear signal to the Southern states that they had lost all influence.

Feeling excluded from the political system, they turned to the only alternative they believed was left to them: secession, a political decision that led directly to war.

[Spider Jerusalem]

173. That pretty much confirms that I'm right. It was slavery.

"States' rights" was a pro-slavery argument. See here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/352b2e/was_the_civil_war_about_states_rights_or_slavery/cr0jt5l/?st=j6hg307o&sh=d37382df

[Angry Dragon]

175. I guess you only read some of my words ....... Good Night

[uppityperson]

183. You do know the KKK are bad guys, right? Racist murderers. Glorifying that is wrong.

Yes, I'll proudly back destroying racist symbols that bring pain to those who were harmed by those in the symbol.

[XRubicon]

39. So we should have statues of anybody from history?

How about an Adolf Hitler for you town common or maybe John Wayne Gacy, they were historic people.

I've got it, a Charles Manson marble full body sculpture for your front yard.

[Angry Dragon]

52. show me one that exists today, I am not talking about creating new ones

[uppityperson]

181. How does destroying a statue or carving destroy history? This is a serious question as I don't

understand this. History is still the same, still taught the same. Only public reminders of the racists are gone.

[JDC]

189. What do the Taliban and Buddha have to do w/ each other?

I don't get the correlation to the thread post

[packman]

14. Really - Calling for a removal of an oversized in-your-face

carving that romanticizes racial injustice, treason and elevating it to heroic, mythical proportions and then comparing it to what the Taliban did?

[Angry Dragon]

17. Iknow ...... lets destroy all the art you do not like ..........

lets coverup everything that bothers you and then history will change

[kwassa]

20. but it is about domination, not history. The KKK.

The carving was conceived by Mrs. C. Helen Plane, a charter member of the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC). The Venable Brothers, owners of the mountain, deeded the north face of the mountain to the UDC in 1916. The UDC was given 12 years to complete a sizable Civil War monument. Gutzon Borglum was commissioned to do the carving. Borglum abandoned the project in 1925 (and later went on to begin Mount Rushmore). American sculptor Augustus Lukeman continued until 1928, when further work stopped for thirty years. In 1958, at the urging of Governor Marvin Griffin, the Georgia legislature approved a measure to purchase Stone Mountain for $1,125,000. In 1963, Walker Hancock was selected to complete the carving, and work began in 1964. The carving was completed by Roy Faulkner, who later operated a museum (now closed) on nearby Memorial Drive commemorating the carving's history. The carving was considered complete[7] on March 3, 1972.
Carving and the Ku Klux Klan

The revival of the Ku Klux Klan was emboldened by the release of D. W. Griffith's Klan-glorifying film The Birth of a Nation,[8] and coincided with the August 1915 lynching of Leo Frank. On November 25 of the same year, a small group, including fifteen robed and hooded "charter members" of the new organization, met at Stone Mountain to create a new iteration of the Klan. They were led by William J. Simmons, and included two elderly members of the original Klan. As part of their ceremony, they burned a crude cross.[9]

Fundraising for the monument resumed in 1923. In October of that year, Venable granted the Klan easement with perpetual right to hold celebrations as they desired.[10] The influence of the UDC continued, in support of Mrs. Plane's vision of a carving explicitly for the purpose of creating a Confederate memorial. The UDC established the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial Association (SMCMA) for fundraising and on-site supervision of the project. Venable and Gutzon Borglum, who were both closely associated with the Klan, arranged to pack the SMCMA with Klan members.[11] The SMCMA, along with the United Daughters of the Confederacy continued fundraising efforts. Of the $250,000 raised, part came from the federal government, which in 1925 issued special fifty-cent coins with the soldiers Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson on them, but would not allow the politician Jefferson Davis to be included.[12] When the state completed the purchase in 1960, it condemned the property to remove Venable's agreement to allow the Klan perpetual right to hold meetings on the premises.[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain

[Angry Dragon]

22. When I look at it, I see art ............

there is domination all around you

republicans want to dominate you
christians want to dominate
Should we destroy both of them??

Destroying something does not get rid of it

[kwassa]

36. It is a gigantic racist signpost.

and a traditional rallying place for the KKK.

Speaking as the art teacher that I am, this is not art. Propaganda, not art.

[Angry Dragon]

49. I am very sorry that it bothers you so much, I still see it as art

[cvoogt]

55. some art deserves to be destroyed.

I like Stone Mountain and have fond memories of the laser show. It would not bother me if it got dynamited.

[TheBlackAdder]

72. Perhaps it's a stone version of Piss Christ. Distasteful political statement to most, art to some.

[cvoogt]

74. Everyone has a right to their opinion

And the rest of us have a right to ours. We appear to finally be at a point where there are enough people who are sufficiently anti-slavery and anti-Nazi that these monuments are coming down. In this sense public art reflects democracy, but with a very delayed reaction. There is some lovely fascist art... in museums, where it belongs. Not in public where it is given more power than it deserves. Unfortunately, the carving on Stone Mountain is attached to a freaking *stone mountain*!

[TheBlackAdder]

85. Yep, I quite agree.

My post was to highlight the idiocy of the other's argument.

There is a high probability they took offense to Piss Christ, but are somehow OK with this carving.

[pansypoo53219]

88. i actually saw piss christ. if you didn't know, kinda nothing pic.

[Mariana]

96. Idiots think it was an actual vessel full of urine on display. nt.

[pansypoo53219]

97. actually it was kinda pretty, but not into religious stuff. a crucifix in a urine filled thing.

i happened to grab a bunch of free art mags at my art school library. i bought books too. i was purging + piss christ on the cover.

[X_Digger]

128. "some art deserves to be destroyed." - saving for posterity. n/t

[XRubicon]

40. It's the same people in all these threads tipping their hand...

[XRubicon]

41. So if Trump gets impeached and his 2nd amendment people take up arms

against the united states, you would be ok with some tasteful statues of the perps on display?

Because history!

[Angry Dragon]

53. no

[Humanist_Activist]

156. Why not? 40-60 years from now, we could have an organization called...

"Daughters of the alt-right rebellion" who will fund and distribute these monuments around the country, lauding the "lost cause" of those who tried to preserve traditional, white Christian culture, but then lost to the decadent hordes that are the non-whites, LGBT groups, etc.

And of course, we would have your spiritual successor, 60 years after that, defending the existence of the monuments based on nothing more than the fact that they already exist.

[Angry Dragon]

164. I am so sorry that you are so afraid of pieces of metal and stone

we also need to get rid of any books that mention the great South

[Humanist_Activist]

166. There's a difference between acknowledging history and celebrating those who participated...

in it. Particularly when their causes are as ignoble as those of the Confederacy.

You seem rather ignorant of the history of the "Great South" as you put it due to your assumption that slavery wasn't the primary cause of secession. I would recommend reading a book or two on the subject.

[Angry Dragon]

167. I will ask you the question I asked someone else

Who were the major slave traders??

[Humanist_Activist]

168. Considering the Atlantic slave trade was outlawed in the United States by 1808, Americans.

And such trade was, if it were to remain legal, only carried out within and between slave states. Why, what relevance does that have to do with Stone Mountain or Confederate statues?

[Angry Dragon]

169. not even close ........... I asked about slave traders

not who bought them

and I believe slaves were a big part of the south
without them then and the migrant workers today the south would not have any strength

[Humanist_Activist]

170. Are you seriously trying to justify the slave trade? And compared it to modern migrant workers?

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you?

Migrant workers face hardships, many of which exist due to the undocumented nature of most of them. However, even that pales in comparison to the chattel slavery that was faced by the people who were forcibly sent here over the centuries, sold off, families forcibly split apart, and used, body, mind and soul, by their owners. Yes, due to the existence of the slave trade, empires and nations were built, but that is no reason to celebrate those who worked to preserve the institution.

I'm sorry, we are done, I cannot, in good conscience, have a conversation with a slavery apologist.

[Angry Dragon]

172. I wonder what is wrong with you that you can not read what is written

Nowhere did I justify the slave trade.

I made a statement saying the south would be greatly diminished without slaves and migrants

[Humanist_Activist]

174. And I'm trying to figure out what relevance that has to the subject...

we are talking about.

[Angry Dragon]

179. I am attacked by you and another about my knowledge

so I tested you ..... sounds fair to me

Perhaps if you would have asked me how I felt about slavery and the mistreatment of migrants you might have found out something about me instead you make assumptions

This started by me with the statement that I did not think the carving on Stone Mountain should NOT be destroyed,I still feel it should not be destroyed.

[Humanist_Activist]

182. You started with this nonsense on "state rights", being overly pedantic...

which is, I might add, a common tactic of Confederate sympathizers and revisionists. Why shouldn't we be suspicious?

[geek tragedy]

42. The Buddha statues were great monuments of cultural

importance.

The Stone Mountain sculpture is a celebration of white supremacy and slavery. It should be done away with. It's only there to empower garbage people.

[Angry Dragon]

54. not evertone saw them as great monuments of cultural importance.

otherwise they would still be there to see

[Judi Lynn]

43. You imagine these Confederate pro-slavery images have the value of those

irreplaceable antiquities honoring higher thought, belief, aspiration which were vaporized by the Taliban in Iraq?

Amazing.

Far more similar to tipping over a very stinky outhouse, or one of these:

[sarah FAILIN]

46. My thoughts exactly

I don't have to be a racist to not want to see these monuments destroyed. It is part of the past and you can't make the past go away with a stick of dyamite. You learn from it and continue to enjoy the beauty of the artwork and the hard work that went into making it.

That is a huge thing to me about the Taliban. Every time they get close to art, they destroy it.

[pintobean]

66. My first thought, exactly.

[Amimnoch]

118. Yeah.. because that's not false equivalency at all...

Taliban destroying thousand year old Buddhist statues as a result of religious intolerance is soooooo equal to states destroying less than 100 year old monuments to racism in the name of tolerance?



Newt Gingrich and Sean Hannity are totally with you though! They were making this exact case and point just last night!

[Angry Dragon]

121. they stole it from me

[Dreamer Tatum]

7. What's the Taliban charge for that service? nt

[procon]

9. Military target practice.

Take it down, all of it, all those icons of slavery, treason, war, and hate have to be removed. Allowing these symbols of injustice and discrimination to remain only inspires the next generation to use them to keep fueling the advance of white power.

[David__77]

12. I agree.

This is effectively now converted into a monument of white supremacy. That gang should be deprived of any points around which to rally. Children should not be exposed to such a thing.

[Kleveland]

13. It is gang related grafitti in my book, and the rock should undergo a restoration.

Return it to its natural state as much as possible.

[Judi Lynn]

44. Very best possible destination, the only honorable one.

It continues to be a celebration of evil as it is now.

[CozyMystery]

16. When I was in high school in the 70s, the KKK had meetings there every year.

I remember how shocked I was. We had just moved to Atlanta from Kentucky.

This was a decade after the mid-60s, when we moved to a town near Montgomery and there was a big billboard inviting everyone to a town-wide family picnic, put on by the KKK. My mother was so happy about that opportunity to meet people, until someone told her what the KKK was. My mother escaped from East Germany ... she was horrified. Of course, we did not go.

We had been transferred to AL from Germany. I was 9. It was right after the Selma March, but I didn't get know anything about that. Our USAF schools had always been integrated

Then in the 80s, I'd be driving through metro Atlanta and the KKK would be on corners at stoplights, collecting donations. They were scary. When my stepdaughters were with me, I made them close their eyes until I gave the all-clear. The car doors were locked.

Also back then, a guy asked me on a date. He seemed nice. A few dates later he opened his car trunk to get something out -- there was a folded KKK uniform in there. I asked him why he had a sheet in the trunk, and he showed it to me. I automatically jumped about 10 feet away from him, and told him he was out of my life.

[vanamonde]

18. Don't get me wrong, I also think it should go

But two of the heads on Mt Rushmore are those of slave owners. How far do we go with this? I have always admired Jefferson but the cog-dis of a slave owner writing that all men are created equal has always bothered me. He didn't consider them "men"?

[dixiegrrrrl]

23. We would have to go back to the stone age to find slave-less societies.

and therefore destroy most of the world's heroic rock figures.
In fact, one of the reasons Washington and et al. could sit around and dream up a viable republic
is because THEY weren't getting dirt under their nails.
Many of them had slaves and/or indentured servants, which is the term you use when the person you legally paid money for, is..white.

[vanamonde]

57. New poster?

I've been on this site longer than you, and furthermore have been financially supporting it for longer than you've been around. Its a "discussion" forum. Ask a question, make a point, start a discussion. Go do your knee-jerking somewhere else.

[LittleBlue]

61. He's been here since 2002

Don't let the low post count fool you. He's been here since nearly the beginning of DU.

[maxsolomon]

33. OH THE SLIPPERY SLOPE

SLIPPING AND SLIDING UNTIL NOTHING SACRED IS LEFT!

welcome to DU and enjoy your stay.

[kwassa]

38. The three men on Stone Mountain actively fought for slavery.

This is why they are famous, and this is why this is different.

[Kentonio]

65. It's a tough one.

On one hand you can't wipe away all the slave related monuments without basically wiping away almost everything before the civil war, but at the same time a cleansing of some degree is desperately needed. I suspect we'll end up having to compromise on the confederacy stuff being the cut off point, difficult though it is to morally justify not going further.

[NYC Liberal]

70. They werent traitors who fought to destroy the country we live in now.

Quite the opposite.

It’s not JUST the racism.

[vanamonde]

80. Sounds reasonable

I suppose the good they did mitigates whatever shortcomings. I would call them enlightened men, but they were also the products of their times.

[maxsolomon]

94. Trump must have read your post before his Presser!

Eerie similarities...

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

129. Slave owners in a less enlightened time. That doesn't make it OK, not at all.

But there is a huge difference between being a slave owner in a time when few questioned it and being a person who took up arms in an effort to perpetuate slavery even after great and successful efforts have been made to convince Americans of the evils of that institution.

These arguments aren’t exactly offered in good faith. But even then, they reflect a profound misunderstanding of the nature of the Confederacy as a project — and of the difference between commemorating its leaders compared to America’s Founding Fathers.

Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee, and the other politicians and generals who served the Confederate States of America aren’t noteworthy historical figures who also happened to benefit from the institution of slavery. They are historical figures who are noteworthy almost exclusively because they led an insurrection against the United States of America, an insurrection whose primary purpose was to perpetuate slavery.

Owning human chattel — and offering intellectual and political defenses of the institution of American slavery — is an important and dishonorable part of Thomas Jefferson’s legacy. But it’s the entirety of Davis’s legacy.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/16/16154738/lee-davis-washington-jefferson

[hunter]

25. We have the technology to remove it intact.

I'll bet Putin would buy it to decorate one of his estates.

Isn't privatization a good thing?

[Qutzupalotl]

26. Make it a shooting range target.

It'll fall soon enough.

[roamer65]

35. Yes, perfect artillery practice target.

...or recarve it as Grant, Sherman and Lincoln.

[pangaia]

28. Germany may as well have statues of Hitler, Rommel, Himmler

Germans are smart people. They KNOW history. All Europeans do.

Americans? blahh

[VMA131Marine]

32. I would not put Rommel in the same category as the other two.

He was part of Von Stauffenberg's plot to assassinate Hitler and paid for it with his life. The German navy named at least one ship after him post-war. There are many others more deserving of being on your list: Goering, Bormann, Goebbels, Keitel, and on and on.

[pangaia]

34. Thank you for updating the holes in my knowledge of history.. Appreciated..

[VMA131Marine]

30. Modify the carvings to represent Lincoln,

Washington, and Jefferson maybe. This thing is relatively new so it does not have the historical significance of the Buddha carving that was hundreds of years old.

[Ilsa]

147. That's my first choice, although

I'm not certain how easily that could be done.

It's an incredible work of art. Too bad the subjects are fatally flawed.

[grantcart]

31. The fundamental difference between Stone Mt and the Municiple Confederate Statues

Is that those statues exist within the community that people naturally pass by. Especially insulting are the statues that are located near municipal buildings that city employees are required to pass to enter the building.

Stone MT is a destination where people have to go to see.

People should not have to pass racist statues just to get to work.

[Weekend Warrior]

37. Can we leave the horses? Stunning. Nt

[Retrograde]

45. It looks like they're succumbing to the rising tide

of history - almost a metaphor for a losing side.

I've never seen the original in person, so I have no idea of the scale. But since it's in Georgia, wouldn't the native vegetation eventually grow over it?

[Weekend Warrior]

47. Love your interpretation. The beauty of art.

not sure about the vegetation. Like you I'm not aware of the scale.

[Lars39]

48. It's huge...on the side of a mountain.

Tallest views for miles.

https://goo.gl/images/QZSUf0

[CottonBear]

60. It's on the world's largest granite outcrop which is called Stone Mountain.

No vegetation will ever cover it. I know, I've seen it in person.

[steve2470]

51. let's dynamite it LEGALLY

Get the GA Legislature and Governor to pass a bill to destroy it. That's the right way.

[GReedDiamond]

56. Unrec...as already pointed out by others...

...destroying this carving would be entering into Taliban/Isis territory.

Historical artifacts, regardless of their symbolism, should be preserved, for better or worse.

The lessons to be learned here should be obvious, IMO.

[Lars39]

62. History of how it came to be:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain

[Awsi Dooger]

59. I really enjoy walking up and down Stone Mountain

I've done it for more than 40 years and hope to do it for decades more.

Feels like quite an accomplishment, especially that final stage up after the rest hut. Coming down is a snap other than a very steep area where they give you hand rails for maybe 80 feet.

Walking that mountain is so much fun I make it a destination almost every year while driving back toward Miami. I plan to do it again in mid October this year.

That park is so much more than a mural. That's what I'm saying. I have played golf at Stone Mountain countless times. The first hole and ninth hole in particular have wonderfully interesting elevation changes compared to what I'm used to in Miami. I've also camped many times. Marvelously peaceful.

The area where you walk up the mountain has a museum but it's not devoted to the Civil War. It is mostly anthropology.

The central area across from the hotel is a long way away and includes the cable cars, which most people us. The nearby white building facing the carving has a Civil War history film that is not pro-Confederacy but it does give each side more balanced detail than most films of that type. I've never found it inappropriate. Outside on the wall facing the carving they have an audio system where you push the button and receive a description of Stone Mountain and the history of the carving.

As a kid in the early '70s I remember very well when the carving was finished. We were returning from a trip to Chicago then down to New Orleans and visited Stone Mountain before returning to Miami. To demonstrate what a different era this was, while driving through Alabama state troopers had a road block and were stopping every car solely to attach a George Wallace bumper sticker. I wish I were kidding. This was after Wallace had been paralyzed. My dad refused. That did not go over well, to say the least. Two officers tried to intimidate my dad but he would not back down. When we drove away one patrol car followed us all the way to the state line, basically tailgating us the entire time with one guy on the police radio, or pretending to be. My sister and I had our heads turned and were watching in astonishment. It was at least 20 miles to the state line.

So keep that in mind while evaluating 1972 and the mood when that mural was completed. It wasn't as far into the civil rights era as we'd prefer to believe.

I've spent considerable time in that area facing the carving. There are plaques for every confederate state. Little winding trail. Fake snow. I've never heard anybody celebrating the men on that carving. Mostly it's families showing their young kids a strange sight on a mountainside and the kids reacting in wide eyed amazement while begging to go on the cable car up and down. That's the realty of Stone Mountain that I've known.

[WinkyDink]

63. Leave it be. Advertise it as a "Depiction of the Defeated."

[pansypoo53219]

64. tatooes can be altered. why not the heads. make them somebody else.

[Vinca]

68. Remove the people and keep the horses.

[d_r]

67. It is private property

I am not sure about dynamiting private property.

[Calista241]

69. It's owned by the state of Georgia. If you've never seen the park

It's gorgeous. Hundreds of people hiking and picnicking, and it's super close to Atlanta. I've hiked up the mountain, cycled around the entire park. It's a great experience.

The monument itself is massive. Started and designed by the same guy that did Mount Rushmore.

[d_r]

84. I've been there

I've hiked up the mountain and camped there and seen the laser light show. I've seen the display at Mt. Rushmore that describes Borglum leaving the project. It is beautiful and there is a lot there to enjoy.

I was wrong. I knew that the state bought it in the 1950s but I thought they sold it in the 1990s. This is what wikipedia says:
--------------
Stone Mountain Park, which surrounds the Confederate Memorial, is owned by the state of Georgia and managed by the Stone Mountain Memorial Association, a Georgia state authority. The Herschend Family Entertainment Corporation currently has a long-term contract to operate park attractions while the Stone Mountain Memorial Association retains ownership and the right to reject any project deemed unfit.

------------

I am not sure I get that - I know there was a privatization thing. This says it is owned by the state of Georgia and also says the Stone Mountain Memorial Association retains ownership.

[ryan_cats]

71. They

They should move it to a museum...

We shall see how all the people feel who want it destroyed when the circular nature of life comes back on us.

[kentuck]

73. In downtown Charleston, SC...

There is long stone building that was once the place where slaves were traded. Should this building be preserved for historical purposes or should it be demolished to the dustbin of history?

Or is there a difference in statues of people that fought against the Union and buildings that promoted the sale and trade of slaves?

Is there an opinion on this?

[Spider Jerusalem]

103. The difference is the difference between Auschwitz and a statue of Hitler (n/t)

[Atman]

75. It's an impressive work of art.

I think it should be preserved, but put in proper context. Remember, the events of this week will one day be studied by historians, too. Use this monument as a teaching tool.

I don't agree with taxpayer funded memorials to traitors displayed in public parks and state houses. But we can't simply eradicate history. We need to learn from it.

[DBoon]

76. I'd sandblast the confederate war leaders and replace it with something Georgia could be very proud

These guys:

[Elwood P Dowd]

92. The Allman Brothers riding horses with the song "Midnight Rider" blasting would be great.

[The_Casual_Observer]

77. Embellish it, add the gates of hell over to the left.

[JohnnyLib2]

78. Make it a federal repository? Ship all the statues there...

What the hell, ship all the Klan members there, too.

[TooStrong]

83. No thanks. Many of us live near Stone Mountain.

[JohnnyLib2]

98. Mea Culpa!

I'll look for a better location!

[Hoyt]

79. The carving is bad enough. The fact the family that owned it started the KKK in Georgia is worse.

Until 1958, the mountain was owned by Klansmen. Big Klan rallies were held there for years, including during my lifetime. At a minimum the carving should be replaced by a memorial to all who have faced vile hatred.

I swear that even driving by, one can feel the hatred. It's just like walking land inhabited by Native Americans, except you don't feel their spirits, you feel hatred. At least I do.

[texasfiddler]

81. Carve Trump's ugly face next to them

Georgia will love it. Trump will love it. We can call it the southern "Mount Rushmore"

[dawg]

86. That bastard didn't make it to 51% in Georgia.

And that mountain was already that way when most of us got here.

[Phentex]

90. Divisive post. Georgia won't love it.

and this isn't helpful.

[pansypoo53219]

89. i know. carve LOSERS in above or below them. CAUSE THEY LOST!

[Hassin Bin Sober]

102. Best idea!!

Trumpify it:

Losers! Sad!

[stevenleser]

91. What makes it worse is that this is a predominantly black area of Atlanta

I would like to see it gone.

[OBenario4]

105. Wow!

That's a beautiful rock!

Shame it has been sculpted.

[AlexSFCA]

109. we can't impose modern day standards on the past

[Yupster]

112. When I was a history major, it was called the sin of presentism

and was greatly frowned upon.

I guess the concept is no longer taught today.

[Spider Jerusalem]

113. Nope, we're interpreting these monuments by the standards their creators intended.

They were meant to be reminders of white supremacy. They were put up to serve a political purpose. They aren't any different to the statues of Lenin in various Soviet republics that came down in the early '90's.

[Yupster]

120. I was thinking of the historical figures more than the statues

The statues I think should be examined one by one by the local people.

If a statue was put up in Ohio in the 1950's, I'd want to hear some explanation of what historic value it might have to do with the Civil War.

That would be very different from a statue put up in a rural North Carolina around 1915. The way the Confederate Army was organized was by county. Pretty much the entire white male population of the county mustered into a regiment, elected their own officers and marched off to war.

The Army of Northern Virginia battle records are full of cases when due to a big assault, up to 70 % of a regiment would be killed or wounded in a 15 minute period. Imagine what a disaster that would be when the news reached home that 3/4ths of the white men of the county were killed or wounded in one day. After the war, the veterans often put up memorials to the fallen, especially around the 50th anniversary of the war.

The height of it I guess was Pickett's charge in 1913 at Gettysburg conducted by grey bearded veterans of the Army of Northern Virginia reenacting the charge with veterans of the Army of the Potomac meeting them with hugs and handshakes when they met. You can see the pictures on You Tube. There was another meeting at Gettysburg in 1938 where the few remaining veterans met again on the 75th anniversary. Very similar to the nostalgia today of WWII where the last few WWII veterans are dying off right now. My father went on an honor flight to the WWII memorial last year at age 92.

Anyway, we should not judge historical figures by the standards of today. That used to be a real no-no to historians,

[kwassa]

122. My great grandfather died at Gettysburg in 1913.

He was there for the 50th reunion of the battle. The first old-timer to die at the reunion.

He had served as a courier for the Pennsylvania Bucktails on the first day of the battle. They fought a retreating action that allowed the Union Army to get the high ground on Cemetary Ridge. While his unit was decimated, he was not wounded here. What was left of the unit became the third line of defense during Pickett's Charge a few days later

Gettysburg is chock full of monuments, but it is the right place for them. I agree with Spider, they are really about white supremacy.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

131. Standards at the time that thing was carved?

Standards, while not universal, were against honoring the the Confederacy and its defenders. We had fought a bloody war against the rebels who took up arms to try to perpetuate slavery in America. Slavery had been outlawed.

So, even by the standards of its time, Stone Mountain was offensive to most Americans and certainly to the ideals of our Nation, even as they remained and remain unfulfilled.

[RandiFan1290]

117. Interesting

US troops helping to remove Saddam statue = Taliban

Germans removing nazi statues = Taliban

Russians removing communist statues = Taliban


This is DU?

[fleabiscuit]

152. Nonsense, its not about the Civil War and history, its about American society and race TODAY.

How you manage to suggest that is some kind of equity to the Taliban is silly at best.

[greytdemocrat]

151. This is beyond foolish.

When do the book burnings begin???

[Humanist_Activist]

154. Its literally a monument to the KKK and Confederacy...

it has no place in modern society. I'm surprised at the amount of Confederate sympathizers there are on on this board.

[greytdemocrat]

160. Thought Police next??

[Humanist_Activist]

162. When those thoughts are expressed, the board is private and against progressive...

principles, hell yes!

If you wish to express your admiration for the Confederate States, you can do so at a more suitable board, like Daily Stormer, if you can find them online now, lol.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

178. Hell yes is right!

[Tribalceltic]

153. Just tell them there is coal underneath the monument

And then see how fast it comes down!

[LenaBaby61]

186. Just tell them there is coal underneath the monument.

And then see how fast it comes down!

[egduj]

157. Would this be akin to destroying art?

like burning books?

[Humanist_Activist]

163. More like the de-Nazification of Germany, post-WWII...

We need to de-Confederatize the country, that's all, a long overdue cleaning house.

[Humanist_Activist]

161. I think Atlanta DSA has the right idea...

Link to tweet

[LeftInTX]

176. Fixed it for you

Actually it's Enchanted Rock in Texas. It has geology very similar to Stone Mountain. Granite. I don't think they should dynamite Stone Mountain. Maybe some day they can get the butt ugly stuff off of there. Until then, keep in mind it is a natural area. There are unique things about these granite domes. They have little pockets where water ponds and micro-ecosystems inhabit.

[Demsrule86]

187. That is up to Georgia. Unless we live in Georgia, we should stay out of it.

Trump is going to turn this Democrats ...make it a monument or history issue. The best thing we can do is keep the eye on the 18 ball.