With the destroyed power grid on the island of Puerto Rico...

[cbreezen]

Would the people of Puerto Rico be open to new infrastructure that relies less on fossil fuels? I can see a great experiment, on a small scale. It would take people of vision to take a step forward, but with the likes of Musk, Branson, and others, it could be done.

I know we can all rip on the lack of virtue by the "powers that be", but I was looking for some fresh conversation.

I'll throw this out there... how about an emergency portable solar *power* system? I kept looking at all that sunshine...

[dweller]

1. how do you pack

an emergency portable solar system?
not enough samsonite available...

oh you meant an emergency portable solar power system ..

[cbreezen]

2. You got me!

Guess I need to fix that if I want to be taken seriously!

[Pachamama]

3. Why I love DU so much....

Without being cruel, that you could point out an error/typo in a friendly way and with humor and to help a fellow DUer along....

[dweller]

4. well, my first thought was to suggest

a Tardis ... but I'm not a Dr. Who fan so didn't know if it would apply

a nod is as good as a wink 😁

[Pachamama]

6. I am a Dr Who fan...as are many DUers...so a Tardis suggestion would have really been appropriate

[dweller]

7. 🙏🏻

[keroro gunsou]

11. well...

the galaxy IS on orion's belt after all....

[Pachamama]

5. I think you are hitting upon an even bigger concept that needs to be looked at...

Aside from the fact that moving away from dependency on fossil fuels is a good idea and the fact that the entire power grid needs to be rebuilt, it needs to be done in a way that involves making it less likely to be destroyed by another hurricane in the future. This would include having underground cable delivery and not electrical poles. Wind generators that are also designed to withstand high winds.

Puerto Rico needs to be rebuilt and hopefully in a way that will be more sustainable for all its residents and to protect them in the future. And hopefully in a way that the people of Puerto Rico won't be taken advantage of by either private investors or in which they get berated for throwing budgets out of whack.

[cbreezen]

12. I am concerned that the people of Puerto Rico, like all of us,

would like power ASAP and that, in the end, they will be taken advantage of. Chaos creates more chaos.

But, you are thinking along the same way I am.

Solar can do much, including providing the power needed to charge an electric car. Wind energy can power a local resort.

A big diesel truck isn't likely to be replaced soon, but little things add up.

[brush]

33. Also wave energy should be explored. PR is in "the middle of an ocean...big water".

[Not Ruth]

39. Wind farms i.e. windmills would be great also

[brush]

40. Yes. It's wise to not rely on just one type of energy generation. Sort of like not putting all...

your eggs in one basket if you will.

If a future storm knocks out solar, maybe wind and/or wave energy facilities will survive.

Also algae energy technology — although it yields high quality oil, it's at least renewable.

[dumbcat]

18. I think most of those concepts have been looked at

And several of them are problematic, and expensive. I am sure there would be support for many of them, depending on who gets to pay the bill.

Underground distribution lines are feasible at low and medium voltages, but problematic with the high voltage lines linking distribution centers. High voltage alternating current has issues about being underground. Doable, but very expensive.

I'm all for solar power arrays, but I was pretty disturbed by some pictures I saw of a commercial solar panel farm that went through the hurricane. It tore the panels up pretty bad. Not sure how to protect large, flat, fixed, wind-catching panels from hurricane winds.

Off-shore wind turbines look pretty good. They are designed to withstand most hurricane force winds, but Cat 5 storms, though rare, may be problematic. See:

https://phys.org/news/2017-06-offshore-turbines-vulnerable-category-hurricane.html

But the biggest issue is financing. Lots of great ideas and techniques to be studied, installed and tested. Who gets to pay for it? The ratepayers? The Puerto Rican government, through taxes on it's people? (Their credit to issue bonds is not too hot right now.) Or should the US taxpayers in general pay for rebuilding the grid, just because ......?

It is going to be interesting seeing how this plays out.

[cbreezen]

24. I'm an idealist and I believe this can be done...

by the people with a little help from their friends. Let us keep in mind; it wasn't the corporation's wish for us to all get into alternate forms of energy. Yet, we did.

Puerto Rico isn't some third world country. Ignore San Juan's mayor and our *ahem* President for a while. Let's lean toward being our better selves.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

9. Grid not that much relevant to source.

The grid is what gets the power from point-to-point, starting at the source or sources. You did stir my thinking, though. Don't know if it would be feasible, but wind would be a potential primary source and solar as secondary, then maybe gas-fired turbines third. Wind farms require locations with lots of steady wind and suitable sea floor.

There probably is not enough spare usable land in PR to depend entirely on solar - which requires tremendous acreage. That would also require massive energy storage facilities to buffer the system at night.

So, the most viable and efficient system must be designed based on many factors including industrial demand and folk's ability to pay. I would guess PR will do well just to get its basic distribution infrastructure rebuilt based on traditional generation, then see what private investments or government funds are available for a better future.

For emergencies, there are barge-mounted generating units made that can create quite large amounts of power, and I believe they are usually oil or natural gas fired. They've been deployed to storm-ravaged areas before but I don't know about availability.

If anyone deserves low-cost energy generation, it's Puerto Rico, right now. Unfortunately, it cannot be done quickly.

[Kaleva]

30. You need about 5-7 acres per megawatt of solar.

21 square miles for 2,000 megawatt.

Puerto Rico is about 3,515 square miles in area.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

42. Thanks, see data I posted, below - Post No. 41.

In a perfect world, that would require 56 sq.-mi. of solar panels. However, for 100% solar, if we were to look at solar generation throughout the day with typical sun exposure and using battery systems to store energy for night use, I would say the capacity might have to be several times that number.

I'm speaking out of school a bit, I don't think it's wise to be totally dependent on a single type of generation. One has to study each location's sunshine availability (worst case), wind availability, fossil fuel cost and availability, peak and average demand data, and many other factors to design an optimum large-scale system. That expertise is widely available, but could take considerable time and money to execute.

The location's ability to maintain these hybrid systems is a huge factor, as well.

[JustAnotherGen]

10. As KyEnviro

Pointed out - the grid? No.

Costa Rica's energy with the exception of automobile is a "renewable" environment for 4.9 million.

It's also a larger land mass with greater diversity in the landscape.

This article addresses the automobile oil dependence but highlights all that is being done there.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/05/costa-rica-renewable-energy-oil-cars

We are "rebuilding" a small home down there so that as we move into our 50's we are splitting our time between Italy and CR. There are credits and benes for us to build the way we are - current footprint, current access to utilities, solar panels, energy efficient, walking trees, not cutting down the trees/shrubs etc etc.

It can be done, but I would say eye on the prize . . .a really robust public transportation system should be part of that goal.

Huge caveat - 45/140, Turtle and Lyin Ryan. Can't happen with those folks in power.

[cbreezen]

17. It's always about the money...

If your government isn't behind it, forget it. I would still like to see some sort of philanthropic effort made to help individuals become less dependent on the mess that supplies their energy needs.

[JustAnotherGen]

19. Me too

But CR has a distinct advantage - they don't all of the previously installed 'shit'. By refurbishing a home with a small footprint and making that renewable/green commitment - I feel like a little extra money spent at the beginning -

Saves everyone money in the long run. Fortunately their Government does too.

[cbreezen]

25. Wouldn't this be more possible right now?

If it is as bad as reported, now would be perfect time. The energy industry is going to do what is best for them... make money. They will rebuild the most antiquated system they can get away with... because people have more immediate needs.

[Lee-Lee]

13. I think that the massive debt and mismanagement of the power company there will scare away anyone

who might have been the kind of person to otherwise come in an invest.

I was reading articles from before the hurricane about how the entire system was in horrible shape and billions in debt because the system gives away power to local governments and government agencies. You might think that's a good idea so police stations and the courthouse and such can operate with lower costs, and that was probably the intent. But the local governments have abused the crap out of it and caused the power company to go deep into debt.

Instead of just running their government offices from the free power they are running anything they can. One town put an outdoor ice skating ring up- in the tropics! Nobody does that because it costs an insane amount to power, but when your power is "free" it's all good. Another built a massive water park that gets all its power free. Lots of them but up buildings and then rent them to restaurants or stores with "free power" included in the rent.

It was a system only a half step from disaster before the hurricane, because there was so much debt and operating loss they were just barely keeping things going and only making and-aid repairs.

Nobody in the solar or other renewable game is going to want to touch that with a 10 foot pole until the problems in the agency and addressed.

Edited to add the link to the story I was reading now that I found it:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/02/02/business/dealbook/puerto-rico-power-authoritys-debt-is-rooted-in-free-electricity.html

The only hope of getting someone like Elon Musk in would be to dissolve the exist power company and hand him total control and power to do something new. But that would also delay getting power back on.

[cbreezen]

14. Argh...

It took a while to discover the history behind the current crisis. It would definitely take individuals acting collectively to even begin to address that chaos...

Thanks for the article.

[Not Ruth]

38. Sounds like the urban planners of Dubai and Puerto Rico love the bling

[MineralMan]

15. Great idea, but there's not time to make that happen.

Right now, the existing power grid must be restored. What you propose will take years, and the Puerto Ricans do not have years to wait for such a thing. They're in desperate straits.

[cbreezen]

26. Maybe it can happen before the next hurricane, eh?

Not trying to be snippy with you, personally. I mean, if not now, when?

[Straw Man]

32. Yup.

Great idea, but there's not time to make that happen.

Right now, the existing power grid must be restored.

What he said.

Tokyo was essentially leveled in WWII. There was some discussion in the postwar period of taking advantage of the devastation to redesign the city and eliminate the meandering, medieval maze that was Tokyo's street plan. But there was no time for that: people had to get housed, and fast. The quickest solution was to rebuild what had been there: new buildings, but in the same places that the old buildings had been.

You'll see the same in Puerto Rico. Emergencies don't lend themselves ambitious new paradigms.

[Not Ruth]

37. It is inefficient to build things twice

Think of it as renovating your house 2x

[Blue_Tires]

16. But their power came from a hydroelectric dam?

And personally, I think PR would be better served cleaning up their notoriously corrupt and incompetent power utility before we start talking about going all-green

[dumbcat]

20. There is difficulty in "cleaning up" the public power company

Contrary to popular belief, it's not a private company. It is a governmental entity. It, in effect, gets "cleaned up" with each change in administration in Puerto Rico and loyal political types get appointed to its governing board.

The Puerto Rico Electric Power Authority (PREPA) —Spanish: Autoridad de Energía Eléctrica (AEE)— is an electric power company and the government-owned corporation of Puerto Rico responsible for electricity generation, power transmission and power distribution in Puerto Rico.[1] PREPA is the only entity authorized to conduct such business in Puerto Rico, making it a government monopoly. The authority is ruled by a board of directors appointed by the governor with the advice and consent of the Senate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico_Electric_Power_Authority

The Island's politicians will have to "clean up" themselves, something historically difficult.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

44. A big mess!

I see from the generation table that there's also seven private or corporate operators as well, perhaps some in isolated zones. Looks like around 20% of the total capacity.

This is a huge physical, political, and financial train wreck - currently and historically!

I can't see any possibility of the current political structure in Washington having the ability or will-power to get-er-done.

[csziggy]

21. There are already large solar farms on Puerto Rico

Just use Google Maps aerial view and "travel" east from San Juan - you will see them.

The problem is the grid was torn apart. That means one of the better ideas would be to install solar panels on homes so there is less need for a distribution grid. Batteries for saving power to be used at night are still very expensive, but Tesla is supplying many right now as they are also repairing and installing solar systems on the island.

I priced solar for my house - the batteries cost as much or more than the solar panels! It would cost me half as much to install a propane powered standby generator as to install a battery pack to save enough power to supply my house for a night or two.

The biggest problem is that solar panels are wind catchers and fragile. I suspect many were damaged by being hit by flying debris, more by being blown off with the roofs they were attached to.

But widespread solar is doable and would be very practical for Puerto Rico and the American Southeast.

[cbreezen]

28. Thanks for the info...

the news is really good at showing the same house over and over, with the same talking head in front of it.

I just wanted to talk about something more.

[malaise]

22. It hardly matters what the people of Puerto Rico want

The 1% on the mainland will decide (as usual)

[cbreezen]

27. Ahhhh... not you, too!

[malaise]

31. The US 1% decide what goes on in sovereign countries

let alone poor Puerto Rico.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

23. I'm guessing the people of Puerto Rico want the electricity turned on.

Now.

"How" is not an issue. Ecological considerations are not an issue.

They just want the refrigerator to work, and the A/C, and the lights.

[DonCoquixote]

29. the silver lining is

When the tesla like grid is placed in, they will be miles ahead of places like Florida which will refuses to do any renovations to it's grid coz the rich old men need to buy a football team.

As a Puerto Rican, I say this, the island has provided many soldiers, and made the US a lot of money. Trump, you just helped the independence movement, which was on it's last legs before Maria.

[malaise]

34. Yep this sure helps the independence movement

Come to think about it the Con is lucky Fidel died before this hurricane.

[DonCoquixote]

46. and Chavez

who would be sending power and making a five course meal out of every crumb.

[Not Ruth]

36. Is independence different than commonwealth?

[DonCoquixote]

47. yes

As a commonwealth, PR is neither a state, nor independent. It means it gets a lot of the responsibilities of a state, but cannot vote in the general election.

Independence is just that, PR becomes a full blown country, and if Fidel and Hugo were alive, they would be all up in San Juan.

The third option was to become a state, which was favored by Obama, who of course, was from Hawaii, another island country that became a state. Of course, the GOP hates it because it would mean two liberal senators, same reason they do not want DC to be a state.

Hope that helps.

[Not Ruth]

48. Trump is driving the GOP/Oscar Rivera agenda of Puerto Rican independence?

When Obama released Rivera early even though he wants statehood? I am very confused about what I should be wanting here.

[DonCoquixote]

50. The answer: this is a shell game

The idea is to keep you distracted sop that you never see where the trickster actually places the pea.

[Not Ruth]

35. Elon will bring Puerto Rico into the 22nd century

There is opportunity for solar, but I think that wind farms need to be explored also

[KY_EnviroGuy]

41. PR Generation Potential, Pre-storm

This is a summary of pre-storm generation potential capacity (not necessarily availability). I think the data is a couple of years old, and have no idea how much was damaged during the storm:

Raw data from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico_Electric_Power_Authority

Potential Generating Capacity:

Coal: 454MW
Heavy fuel oil: 2584MW
Diesel: 1611MW
Natural Gas: 510MW
Wind: 101MW
Solar: 73MW
-------------
Total: 5333MW

Percentages:

Heavy fuel oil, Diesel and Natural Gas: 88.2%
Coal: 8.5%
Wind: 1.9%
Solar: 1.4%

So, they are almost totally dependent on fossil fuels and only have scratched the surface with renewables.

Have not yet found demand data to see actual usage levels vs. generation capacity.

[cbreezen]

51. I note no mention of hydro-electric...

but, from the info you provide (I didn't go out to Wikipedia), that's just a drop in the bucket. Puerto Rico, clearly, has a manipulated energy scheme. In other words, they are being held in a sort of economic hostage situation.

Once again, I must ask the naysayers (not you, personally), how can this be changed other than through a collective grassroots effort?

I don't have answers, I'm just looking for them.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

52. Don't think hydro is viable.

cbreezen, hydro requires massive water flow from rivers taking water from very large areas. I suspect (not sure) PR simply does not have the geography for it. If it did, someone would have built one as a first source of power.

Although I'm an engineer, I don't have the background to make a solid call on this. Frankly, it requires knowledge from several disciplines to do a complete analysis, plus all the political factors that must be weighed. But, with the knowledge of power systems I have, I don't see any way other than to repair their existing system. After repairs, they will be far better off than before due to the very poor condition of the poles, lines, metering systems and transformers that were there pre-storm. So, that will become the foundation for future changes - say, to wind and/or solar.

The reason I'm so negative is due to the existing debt PR has, and their doubtful ability to pay off even more debt on top of that. The banking vultures were there eating at them before the storm! I have not read how it is proposed for even the existing infrastructure repairs to be paid for.

If one had a competent company come in and do all the studies, propose the changes and win a contract - if it's not a pay-in-full contract, they will want ownership of a piece of Puerto Rico. And, therein lies the rub - with so much existing debt, plus new debt for repairs and/or upgrades, there may not be any privately owned Puerto Rico left for the citizens!

I wish it could, but I don't think any grassroots efforts can even make a dent toward paying for this work. We're talking several hundred million dollars (of the cuff), and that does not include helping to pay for all the other damages (homes, crops, etc.). Sorry I can't be more positive.

I doubt if Puerto Ricans want billionaires like Bezos or Musk owning their souls, either.

[cbreezen]

53. I guess one must make a decision...

in the end, it's the ill-willed philanthropist vs. the ill-willed corporatist.

I respect science, but nothing good will ever come of it if the human equation is removed.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

54. You summed it up quite wisely.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if every citizen around the globe could pitch in 10 bucks for PR? That's about what it would take just to pay off their debt ($72 billion) and start from scratch! Another 10 bucks might rebuild it like new.

That existing debt come to around $21,000 per Puerto Rican citizen (population= 3.4 million), and they have a pre-storm unemployment rate of over 12%.

Another way to see it is if every US citizen pitched in around $220, that would also pay off the debt for a fresh start. Good luck with that, LOL. Add some more to that if we want to help them rebuild.

And, that's not even including paying for the disasters in Texas, Florida, Louisiana, and now some in Mississippi and Alabama.

It's a big, disgraceful mess.

[cbreezen]

55. What a wonderful discussion... I'd almost forgotten

the DU of old.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

56. Thanks, Cbreeezen.

I'm a little old (70), but new to DU. Don't know what took me so long to find it, but I'm enjoying engaging in some rational dialog every few days. Or, just venting sometimes as well. I think most of us older Dems need a safe place to escape!

[CK_John]

43. It could be done but DT45 is more concerned with paying the "bonds holders" first or

giving everything over to his friends and family.

[RandiFan1290]

45. They are talking to Elon

Link to tweet

[Not Ruth]

49. Elon could possibly pay off a great deal of Puerto Rican debt in exchange for providing their energy