Debris clean-up has hit a glitch in Florida

[Baitball Blogger]

Last edited Fri Oct 6, 2017, 07:25 PM - Edit history (1)

If you want to see how poor Republican led states have an effect on your pocket, this is it. Almost a month outside of Irma and those who live in private areas are deciding to eat the cost of debris removal on their own, rather than wait. Apparently, regulation with debris contractors has been less than expected.

But I also started an inquiry in the Florida group to see if this is a legit cost for HOAs to pick up. If someone has an answer, please drop in here: https://www.democraticunderground.com/10455670

Attorney General Pam Bondi investigating debris-removal companies after Hurricane Irma

Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi issued investigative subpoenas Monday to three debris-removal companies as part of a state probe into allegations the companies are failing to live up to terms set in pre-storm contracts with cities and counties, including some in Central Florida.

The companies include AshBritt, which had several contracts in Central Florida, including Apopka and Orange County; and Ceres Environmental Services, which had a deal with Seminole County.

“Sitting debris is a health and safety hazard and needs to be removed as soon as possible — but instead of doing their jobs and helping Floridians recover, apparently some contractors are delaying the work or requesting higher rates,” Bondi said in a statement released by her office.

The subpoenas seek to answer questions about the slow progress of debris removal after Hurricane Irma, which hit Central Florida on Sept. 10.



http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/hurricane-irma-recovery/os-pam-bondi-issues-subpeonas-debris-removal20171002-story.html

[Throck]

1. I grew up on the east coast of the US.

I've lived through snow storms, ice storms, wind storms, floods and two hurricanes in my life.

After every storm all the neighbors got together and started picking up the neighborhood. We sawed, cut, stacked, shoveled, shared snow throwers, split gas, loaned ladders, ran 4 houses on one generator...................... We used pickup-trucks, trailers and a lot of elbow grease. No neighbor was left behind. When the power crews came through, paths to and around houses were cleared making their job go easier AND FASTER.

America has lost it's sense of community.

[Baitball Blogger]

4. Hand's down it has lost its sense of the broad community.

It's all about tribalism these days.

[Throck]

11. Tribal is an excellent word!

The perfect word for it.

[Mariana]

6. There has to be someplace to take the stuff.

So, you're in Florida. You and your neighbors pick up all the fallen limbs, shingles, siding, and other trash. You've loaded up your trucks and trailers with crap. Now, where do you take it?

[Throck]

12. Any contribution to the overall effort is a step in the right direction.

Condensing the mess at the side of the road frees up central resources to work more efficiently.

Some people will sit inside and look at a problem for hours, others will do their best.

One snowstorm I saw a dozen random people manually clear an intersection so an ambulance could pass. I realize different people have different skills and physical capacities, I've also seen 80 year old men handle a chainsaw better than a 20 year old Xbox generation kid. Doing nothing seems in style today.

[Mariana]

17. The crap is on the side of the road.

I don't know where you got the idea that it isn't.

[GusBob]

19. Within a block of house in either direction

There are huge trees down cut up and curbside. Massive trunks, it would take more than "elbow grease" and "community spirit" to move that shit.

[Mariana]

22. Oh come on now.

You've all been sitting inside, doing nothing to help yourselves and your neighbors, all this time. Admit it! That's the only explanation.

Needless to say,

[MyOwnPeace]

29. Like "The Leader" says:

"They expect others to do their work for them!"

Oh, wait, that was someplace else................

GAWD, we're so screwed!

[Blue_true]

30. We have county dump sites where I live in Florida.

Routers direct people to lightweight versus heavyweight dump sites. If a neighborhood cleaned up, people could explain that to the routers who would direct them to the proper dump site. Cellulose (wood, limbs, Palm limbs, leaves) are especially valuable because they can be sent to compost maker to be ground up and then composted, they resold as soil fertilizer.

[Hortensis]

7. Well, you'll be glad to know it's the same here in Georgia and down at our places in Florida.

And back in the various parts of California we lived in. People are people everywhere. Some come out and help some don't. Some can, some can't.

But typically the roads are cleared enough so we and our neighbors can get in and out, with the debris moved to the side. Also, owners of private driveways almost never have to go hire anyone. Help is right there in the neighborhood.

But counties own rights of way on each side of the roadways we use, and I haven't yet seen anyone clear those and dispose of the debris when we know we pay taxes for that.

[Baitball Blogger]

27. No consolation that you're comparing us to Georgia.

None. Nada.

[Hortensis]

31. Lol. Well, taking care of neighbors of their "tribe" is a strong point of conservatives.

They have just as much altruism as liberals, just feel it toward mainly their "own" people, rather than the liberals' feeling of owing duty to much larger populations. The plus in conservatives is that they are able to give more to smaller groups than liberals can for very large ones, and they often do just that--give big.

Three of the trees on the road came from our property, but my husband's chain saw was resisting starting, and as a result two were already completely cleared by the time he was able to join in, and they helped make very short work of the third as well even though more trees waited down the road.

As for another comparison, please don't feel bad , but in spite of severe damage from Irma in our area (60,000 properties (!) served by our power cooperative lost all power), several major highways and many roads closed from trees and poles down, etc., etc., we now have a very large pile of chips at the bottom of our drive, a gift of the crews who finished grinding all the debris in our neighborhood last week.

Understandably painful, I know, but you need to know.

[Baitball Blogger]

33. I have lived what you're tallking about.

They keep the people in their inner circles happy, at our financial expense. Which makes the lack of open meetings all the more incriminating. They think this is so normal, that in one case when I inquired on something that pertained to my property, they wrote back that they had a meeting of the Association - or in other words, their network in the community - and would let me know what their opinion was at the next board meeting. So effing illegal and it is out in the open.

They have a website that I refuse to participate in because it only helps them skirt the laws. They have to know the legal jeopardy they're in. We have multi-family homes in the development, which means they should be running the Association at the highest level of fiduciary responsibility, not the weakest.

[Hortensis]

37. Sorry about all that. We are talking about very different things, though,

in my case people with their good characteristics dominant, and their "circles" can be everyone in our town/county, or just certain parts, people "like them" all over the country, people in their church all over the world, and groups "adopted" by some association they're part of, like sister cities or whatever, at least right then.

In your case character flaws magnified by group behavior. I can't count the times people who were pleasant individually turned into people I really didn't want to know when under the influence of "the group." Your group is supporting a bad leader and obviously need a proper one. Good luck with that.

[Baitball Blogger]

38. Hate to tell you that all those networks

You talk about are also here. That they have been co/opted by a very money motivated core of individuals has been obvious for a long time.

[Hortensis]

39. How terrible for you. Take care.

[GusBob]

10. Uh pal, that's what happened here

Everyone pitched in a cleaned it up for a week. Now it's been piled up at the curbs for weeks.

It doesn't bother me except the streets in our neighborhood are difficult to navigate

[Baitball Blogger]

20. Not so here.

And, really, I expected to see more cooperation between the cabal members. Maybe they're afraid to show their alliances in the open?

This time, everyone was left to their own resources, which is unfortunate, since yard trash tends to pile up in hidden places when people are too lazy to rake and bag it.

After Hurricane Charlie in 2004, it was a little different. Two of the cabal members suffered major losses and the main good buddy came by while we were raking our yard to ask for our help. "These are your neighbors."

All I could think about was how they had colluded before, during and after the city meetings that sealed our Association's fate when its final development stage was up for review. When someone defrauds you it changes you. It's the same quandary you find yourself in when you're facing a known liar. Why waste time on civilities when you can't trust anything they say. These people have no souls.

I passed one of them on the street as I was driving out the other week. He had just left our development and, either he forgot something, because he was returning. More likely, he was being sneaky and left the usual way, just to turn around at the island entryway to get into the gates of the development next door. I believe he has a second homestead there.

Anyway, we passed each other in our vehicles. I had one hand on the steering wheel and the other on my dog, which I was driving up for her grooming appointment so there was no way I was going to return his wave. Frankly, I didn't have a reason to smile either. After he passed by, I looked at the rear view window in time to see him spit on the road.

Yeah, I think it's just best to continue a life of rugged individualism.

[GusBob]

25. I don't reckon Ms Bondi can help ya there. Nt

[Baitball Blogger]

26. She's just Florida's attorney general, and the fraud occurred before her time.

Of course, she could add HOAs paying for debris clean-up into the equation when she figures out damages. To those of us who are paying to clean-up our bad neighbor's private yards, it would be appreciated.

[Mariana]

21. Isn't it funny how some people just make shit up

to put down others, so they can tell everyone how superior they are?

Everything in the linked article indicates the residents have done what they can. The problem is the crap isn't being hauled, not that it isn't ready to be hauled.

[GusBob]

23. Yep I was just thinking the same thing

That and something else I will leave unsaid.

We all of us ( ya know, that community thing) have been thru this before. Mathew was just last year we know the drill. It ain't our fault nor the governments fault the contractors failed.

One thing I can't do is spend any more time away from work or any more money I ain't got on this damned hurricane. Nobody in our neighborhood can

[genxlib]

2. These companies work like insurance

They sign up contracts over a wide area working under the assumption that only a small fraction of the contracts will be initiated at any given time. No one wants to pay rates high enough to have these resources sitting around. The only way to keep the rates down is to spread the cost of capabilities around to a lot of potential disaster areas.

The nature of Irma screwed that up by impacting the entire state.

When all their contracts got initiated at one time, they were overwhelmed.

In the best case, they should have ramped up to meet their obligations. At the very least, they should have met their obligations for price with only time implications due to demand.

But it sounds as if they have been trying to re-negotiate on the fly. Even worse, they seem to be prioritizing the clients willing to pay premium rates.

I am sympathetic to the logistical challenges but these people stand to make a lot of money. they have no right to make more by dodging their responsibilities. If anything, they should be paid less for the delayed removal that did not meet their contractual obligations. Or even better, the Cities should proceed without them and sue them for the cost+premium.

One thing I do know. My City did better than most. I don't think it is a coincidence that my City staffs their own waste management division with City employees. When the time came to do clearing, it took them some time to catch up but they had no other obligations to outside clients. That is the thing about privatizing city services. You lose a lot of control (aside from the other downsides)

[Blue_true]

34. The cities and the county here has it's own environmental cleanup and utility.

They were a little overwhelmed after Irma, but they got around that be hiring subcontractors. Everything was back to normal a while ago. I only see trees in one are beside a roadway, all curbside stuff is gone and all power was restored at least two weeks ago.

[genxlib]

3. Also. It hurts to say this

But Pam Bondi is doing the right thing here.

There is a first time for everything.

[Baitball Blogger]

5. Hey, hurricane debris pick-up affects Republicans too.

It messes with their Potemkin Village Effect.

[malaise]

8. Because the media has exposed them

and pointed out that lots of folks working for them have not been paid

[Blue_true]

35. I think she has her eye on the Governor chair.

She is a soulless asshole. She is trying to play this to her advantage.

[onethatcares]

9. as I stare at the piles on the easement

along my sidewalk, I wonder why they, the city or its' contractors, take the debris to a common area and chip it into mulch. People are always buying mulch and this stuff would be great base.

Win situation in my book.

[genxlib]

14. Generally speaking

That is what they do. They don't take it to the landfill. The collection point are often temporary like parks, parking lots, or surplus City property etc. One of the complications is that it all has to be tracked to get reimbursed by FEMA.

This is about getting it from the roadside to those collection points.

[Baitball Blogger]

15. Florida has a termite and bug problem.

Accepting free mulch can be iffy.

[Blue_true]

36. Depends upon how the mulch is made.

There are organic pest control products that will kill termites dead if sprayed on mulch. There is a liquid that originated in India that can be mixed several teaspoons to a gallon of water, soak wood products with that, the termites are dead and the stuff biodegrades a few days later. I forget the name since I have not gardened in the last four years.

[Mariana]

16. I'm sure they are doing that.

There's only so many chippers out there, and of course much of the waste isn't suitable for that.

It took months to clear the crap from the roadsides after the hurricane I was in. I watched when they came down our road. It took all day to do our rather small neighborhood because they were having to drive off with a full load every 2nd or third house. No wonder it took so long. I heard they hauled it to the fairgrounds and burned it. I don't know what was done in the surrounding counties.

[d_r]

13. Florida and privatization

contracted companies to do the clean up for counties

[GusBob]

18. Yeah our city got left in the lurch by the contractor

They are simply overwhelmed because the damaged was state wide.

The curbs are piled with stuff, not a big deal except it looks bad. Some people get mad it kills the grass. It doesn't bother me except some narrow streets are not easy for 2 way traffic

[Mariana]

24. It doesn't just look bad.

It creates a fire hazard as it dries, it shelters rodents and insects that may spread disease, kids want to climb on it and can get hurt, the piles can collapse and cause damage or injury, and it obstructs traffic as you mentioned and obstructs line of sight as well. It really does need to go, but everyone is overwhelmed and it's going to take a long time.

[GusBob]

28. There's that and a more serious risk

Another high wind storm hits ( Frances after Charley for example), there's piles a sharp end branches flying around

[Weekend Warrior]

32. Look at Pinellas County.

They messed up royally. They refused to pay the going wage and a MAJORITY of the companies who were going to do the pick-up went south. They have yet to do half of the collection in the county. It’s a train wreck.