Folks, there are very good reasons why a body isn't shown to loved ones.

[Ilsa]

Sargent Johnson was likely dead for 48 hours before his body could be refrigerated and packed in ice. I think the high temps in places like Niger and Chad approach 100°F. It's the desert. The dry air will help preserve a body, but heat like that will enhance decomposition.

We don't know if he was tortured, decapitated, or if animals got to him. His body was almost certainly decomposing, and when that happens, recognizing the body might be problematic. Plus, there is a smell that cops and investigators say is unforgetable. Maybe it is best that the widow not remember her husband's body this way. People have been traumatized with much less exposure to death.

I'll go with this, the most reasonable explanation, rather than indulge in conspiracy theories. It is more important to determine how and why he died. Mrs. Johnson's viewing of the body isn't going to help that, and would likely cause more grief, even PTSD.

[JanetLovesObama]

1. I agree.

[Ilsa]

2. Once the bacteria from

Feces and urine gets a hold on the body, the putrescence is enough to make the strongest puke.

[panader0]

19. Perhaps when he was found, but certainly not put in the casket that way.

He may be decapitated, he may have decomposition, he may have been
chewed on by jackals--but he wouldn't stink anymore. DNA tests should have been
done. The wife, the person closest to him, wanted to see the body and was
denied. If it was me, I would have wanted proof.
Who made the ID? Someone who knew him personally? Who is in the
coffin? If anyone.
That may sound like tin foil stuff, but I wouldn't put anything--anything
past this administration. One way to tell for sure. ID by his wife.

[PJMcK]

40. A naive question

Don't enlisted personnel wear dog tags for identification? A former service member once told me that the reason dog tags come in pairs is because if the person dies, one tag stays around the neck and the other is put in the mouth to increase the likelihood of a proper identification.

Granted, this old-time method isn't as accurate as a DNA test.

[James48]

50. They have everybodys DNA on file.

15 years ago. Everybody on active duty then, and everybody who joined since, had a DNA sample taken and put on file.

They now have the ability to determine identity of a U.S. soldier from any fragment of body large enough to process a DNA sample from. ( hair, fingernail, etc).

They don’t need dog tags to ID a body.

There is a whole “mortuary affairs” job classification that teaches soldiers to become DNA identification experts.

[Hortensis]

60. Yes. Good info.

[PJMcK]

61. Thanks

I didn't know that and it makes perfect sense. Are the service people who are trained in DNA technology able to make identifications in the field?

[James48]

71. No- not exactly.

In the field there are “mortuary affairs specialists” who receive the body (remains), check for unexplored ordinance, remove jewelry, etc. they prepare the body for shipment back to Dover, where aedical team determines cause of death, and confirms ID if necessary.

Learn more here: story of a Job speciality Mortiary Affairs military occupational specialty 92M


http://soldiers.dodlive.mil/2012/05/confessions-of-a-casualty-and-mortuary-affairs-soldier/

[TheDebbieDee]

93. They also have all Reservists' DNA on file as well.

My DNA sample was taken in 1998 or 1999... Of course, I can't be sure how carefully they're able to track SO many samples, millions of them...

[xmas74]

99. My brother has his on file

From 1996.

[HipChick]

3. Emmett Till....Even my own cousin...

18yrs...just about to start his college, burnt alive in an automobile crash...

It's not much of closure, but its something to those who are mourning....

the govt. is covering up something...

[Orrex]

6. " the govt. is covering up something..." Maybe, maybe not.

I commented on this here.

[GulfCoast66]

78. Sorry, but this is getting to conspiracy theory territory

They may cover up the circumstances of his death, but not wanting to expose a spouse to a pile of organic matter that in no way resembles her husband is compassion in my opinion.

If he was out there for 2 days I would guess predators and scavengers would have got a lot of him.

Sorry if that is gross but I have seen what is left of large animals left in a predator rich environment. They can be over half devoured in24 hours.

Seeing your spouse like that could permanently damage a person.

Have a nice evening

[Ms. Toad]

95. I'm not into conspiracy theories -

BUT it is patronizing to deny a loved one the opportunity to see her spouse because you/the powers that be believe it would harm her or that you know better than she does what she needs for closure.

That's the same crap they used for years to discourage women from holding their children who died shortly before or after they died. She has the right to see her husband. She is a grown woman, and can make the decision for herself what it is appropriate for her to see.

[cwydro]

106. Not to mention flies.

I live in the country. Flies find anything dead pretty damn quick.

So do birds.

It’s not pretty, but it’s how nature cleans up.

[anneboleyn]

145. WTF is this misguided "compassion" bullshit? We don't get to prohibit a wife or mother or father

from looking at the remains of their deceased. We don't get to force our "compassion" or our fear of the dead onto them and deny their explicit and legal request. This "logic" is extremely disturbing to me -- stepping on the wishes of others because we feel that our ideas are superior/will save her from herself. I don't care what shape he's in. She's not a child. She made a request and it should be honored. Excuses that translate to "she's too delicate" for this are ridiculous, insulting, and logically weak. It's HER husband, and she can view his body!

Not all people, and certainly not all cultures, are so incredibly traumatized by the sight of the dead. In hospice care, families are often encouraged to sit with relatives who've died as they often find this extremely peaceful and comforting. Yes, I understand that he won't look like the typical exhibited body in a funeral home, covered with makeup including lipstick to hide blue lips and all sorts of other normal aspects of death, embalmed and filled with chemicals so no smells will trouble anyone, and with eyelids glued shut (yes literally), mouth sewn shut (literally with a giant needle) so the jaw won't drop as it does naturally after death, etc. I find that far more grotesque than the natural state. But SHE GETS TO CHOOSE. PERIOD. In fact many cultures keep the dead in the home for religious ceremonies w/out the modern ridiculousness of embalming and makeup for a week or longer.

Funeral homes obviously handle such matters all the time. A recommendation is made to a family member or spouse etc that it is not recommended that they look at the remains. But this ridiculous "this is for your own good so we are refusing your request" shit is totally out of line and is not normal. In the "old days" of the 19th century people handled their own dead, preparing spouses and children and parents for in-home wakes. The terror we have in the modern age of seeing the dead is just ridiculous. It isn't healthy for a culture to be in such total denial.

That aside, there is no reason why the military should be refusing this woman's request -- I've seen the film Taking Chance on hbo, starring Kevin Bacon as the marine who brings home a fallen marine to his hometown to be buried, following military protocol. Everything shown in the film is correct according to EVERY DETAIL. The poor young marine was killed in a very violent manner (an IED if I remember correctly).

The family was told that his remains were not recommended for viewing but they did NOT PREVENT THE FAMILY FROM SEEING THEIR DECEASED SON IF THEY SO WISHED. The mortician in his town did the last preps and Bacon's character even checked the body to make sure that the uniform that could be fitted was done so properly. PEOPLE OFFERING UP FEEBLE EXCUSES ABOUT HOW SHE NEEDS TO HAVE HER EYES COVERED FROM THIS LIKE SOME POOR WEAK WOMAN ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTS ME. THERE IS NO WAY THAT FUCKING TRUMP AND CO SHOULD BE DENYING THIS REQUEST AND SOMETHING IS VERY, VERY WRONG.

[stopbush]

4. A head wound is reason enough to not view a body.

War deaths are like what we saw in Saving Private Ryan, not like the bloodless, clutching-ones-heart deaths seen in war movies from the 1940-70s.

[Corgigal]

5. Then tell her that

Sit her down and explain why your decision is that way.

Damn, homicide detectives fl it every day, are legal system puts them on film. Tell her, if she wants to know then you tell her. Don't allow her brain to spin to fill in the story, it actually could be worst. I'm sure Kelly knew everything about everything.

Answer her questions, what she wishes ever to share is her business.

[Ilsa]

11. I'm wondering if they have

explained it to her, but she's still in shock and not quite processing it. Bless her heart, she has been put through the ringer. Someone may have tried, but used language too technical, not wanting to say, "the head was blown off of your husband's rotting corpse, which has been knawed by wild animals down to the bone on his remaining extremities. And we haven't been able to contain the vomit-inducing smell, either."

[Corgigal]

17. Don't know

Stop thinking logically, its emotional. The number one question is why? Homicide detectives would just touch your hand and say, now dear. You would take a swipe at them

What she is asking is part of human behavior, it's not unusual. Stop thinking for her, it's not your call.

[SunSeeker]

22. Stop with the patronizing posts about this widow. She is a strong woman.

She can handle bad smells. She's a mom. She displayed great strength in her interview this morning.

Please stop assuming she can't handle it.

[Ilsa]

25. I have no doubt she is a strong woman.

I think there are a lot of people in denial here about how traumatizing it can be, even for strong people. Strong people get PTSD too. I don't think it is right to assume the worst of the counselors trying to help her through this.

As for smell, we're not talking about diaper smell. There's a reason detectives smear Vicks vapor rub to help hide the putrescence so they aren't vomiting at a crime scene with 2 day old corpses that have been cooking in their own juices and bacteria.

[SunSeeker]

26. No one is saying it's not traumatizing. But not knowing is even worse.

She can hold her nose.

[Ilsa]

27. And maybe they can convince her with other

information, such as their autopsy, how they knew it was him, etc. But honestly, I think the counselors are seeing something they see frequently: that she is in a denial stage of processing this horrible tragedy.

[SunSeeker]

29. Please stop insulting this widow. She is not in "denial."

She is asking reasonable questions after being denied her right to view his body. This OP and your posts about the widow are horribly patronizing and insulting to the widow.

Don't you agree she has a UNDENIABLE RIGHT to view his body and that the military had no right in refusing to let her see it?

[Ilsa]

41. She absolutely has the right to see it.

The pentagon said so as well.

A friend of mine, another RN, specialized in thanatology. Another friend was a licensed psychologist. They have told me, and would say today, that a comment, "I don't even know if he is in there," is most likely to be a part of the grief process, a stage of denial. That's normal grief. Sometimes professionals make recommendations because they actually understand this better than someone going through it the first time. I suspect they have also dealth with families that had no body to recover.

I don't know why the counselors didn't have something else to offer her to convince her, or how they actually physically kept her from viewing the body.

[SunSeeker]

48. Link to the Pentagon telling her she could see it? That's news to me. nt

[Corgigal]

42. She has every right to get as much information

she needs. Even the hard part, he's already dead. She wants to know was it quick, did he fight for days, did he have a chance? If they failed, fine tell her.

She's an adult damn it. Tell her, I can't believe how stupid this all is. This was Trumps fuck up, he shouldn't talk to any human being. Just play golf and shut up.

[heaven05]

120. oh man

how condescendingly insulting of this grown woman wanting to know that she was sure it was her husband, that this government sent into harms way to be killed in what is now being recognized as a setup/ambush. NOTHING, NOTHING this administration claims can be believed.

I am sure her mental processing skills are just as astute as yours. She is a military wife by god, she is capable. Goddamn, all these armchair counselors are sickening.

[WinkyDink]

43. Do you get a thrill from describing the ugly details of torture, gore, and decomposition? Do you

think we are clueless?

NOBODY is disputing the physical probabilities.

[elehhhhna]

66. I've smelled dead bodies and it's horrid but two things:

The body of this man was processed and should not smell like a decaying corpse and two, the vicks thing doesn't work. It actually opens your sinuses up and you are left with more dead stink in your sinuses when it wears off. Cops give vicks to new recruits on their first decaying body calls because they think it's funny, like hazing. Never do the vicks thing.

[Hortensis]

133. The things you learn. How about breathing through used coffee grounds?

[elehhhhna]

134. Never tried it but it might work I don't even think they need to be used

[Hortensis]

138. Read it somewhere, but I'll be happy to always be able

to take your word on need.

[WinkyDink]

87. OFGS---STOP WITH THE DISGUSTING "HELPFUL INFO." And while you're at it, stop fantasizing. Oh, wait.

[uponit7771]

38. +1

[sarisataka]

7. I've seen combat deaths

In a similar environment, some fresh some a day old.

They start unpleasant and only get worse. I would advise family to not see a body in those circumstances

[Maeve]

8. I agree with you

There are some things even the best mortician can't cover up. And there are things you can't unsee. Had she pushed it, she might have gotten to see, but she might also have wished she hadn't. Let it rest.

In high school, I had two friends killed in an automobile accident. One had a closed casket, the other open. I still wish, more than 40 years later, both had been closed.

[GoCubsGo]

9. Very true.

I agree that that his body was likely in an advanced state of decomposition by the time they got to it. And, he was probably shot up pretty badly. That being said, while I agree that these conspiracy theories are not helpful, if one of them turned out to be true, it would not surprise me--just for the sole fact that nothing out of this wretched administration surprises me any longer. I put nothing past them.

[coolsandy]

10. If the widow wanted to see his body no matter what, who are we to say she shouldn't?

[Ilsa]

12. We aren't. But professional grief counselors usually have

advice that is worth considering. My understanding is that the military provides these counselors from start to finish. This might be a person who can figure out how to help her find acceptance without her becoming a trauma victim. In another thread, I stated that if they had his wedding ring or something like that to give her, she might get some emotional relief, however small.

She is pregnant and has two little kids that need her more than ever now. Risking PTSD is kind of a big deal.

[SunSeeker]

18. Yes you are. You are implying there is a legitimate "reason" she was denied her right.

There is no legitimate reason for the military denying her request to see his body. His body, at this point, is her property under the law. She gets to decide what to do with it as his widow.

[sarge43]

47. You may be right. She could have been dangerously traumatized.

However, as a functioning adult, that's her decision. She's already been traumatized and not knowing is making it worse.

Let's turn this around. Let's say Sgt Johnson's nearest NOK had been an adult male - brother, son, father. Making it even more interesting, let's say that man was suffering from combat PTSD and had been through this on the battle field. Would he have been denied the right to see the body or is this "Let's protect the pregnant woman because they're "sacred", emotional and fragile?

Finally, is there a law, a statue, an executive order that allows the Army to deny a civilian NOK to see a body, no matter what condition it may be in? Mrs Johnson isn't in the service; she's not a federal employee. She's a private citizen. Yeah, when a service member is alive, s/he can be and often will be told to keep their mouths shut about everything. However, Sgt Johnson isn't in the Army anymore; he belongs to his family now.

[James48]

52. You make the wrong assumption.

You are all assuming there IS a body.

I have only heard that his REMAINS were returned.

That does not imply a body.

That implies that it is possibly much less.

Maybe a piece of face.

Maybe a hand.

Maybe only a fragment of bone.

Think what might be the case when a human being is destroyed by high powered weapons, or blown up with a bomb, or hit with cannon fire. Or a Mortar.

There might not be a whole lot of body to show.

[sarge43]

65. I'm well aware what high explosives can do.

So there was only a finger nail left. I'll ask again, does the federal government have the legal right and authority to deny a NOK, and private citizen, the right to see that finger nail? If so, on what grounds?

[adigal]

68. Didn't he put his own locator on? Wasn't he alive?? I think he was captured, possibly tortured

along with what goes on during that. There may be missing pieces or he may very well have been beheaded. This is what I think.
And I PRAY there is no video that someone will be releasing to show what they did.

[cwydro]

107. That word is used for bodies.

“Remains” is a common word for a dead body.

It does not mean destruction of a body.

[Fritz Walter]

13. OK, but what about her other question?

Why did it take so long for his status to be changed from MIA to KIA?

If the Casualty Assistance Office doesn’t have answers, why can’t he get answers? If someone fucked up, should s/he not be held accountable?

Jeese on a cracker, with the existing technology of the Internet of Things — which allows companies to monitor truck-drivers on the road, and homeowners to monitor and adjust their home temperatures via a Nest thermostat — how the fuck could they “lose” a soldier for 48 hours?

[Ilsa]

15. It's a separate question that needs to be answered.

The fact that it hasn't been answered yet doesn't support a conspiracy that he really isn't dead.

[Baconator]

112. Because you don't declare someone dead...

... Until you know for sure even if you are 99%.

Also... There is no 'internet of things' in Niger for fucks sake.

[Turbineguy]

14. I suspect that the people who

deal with bodies of the military deal with all of them the same way and to the same standard. They have a very good grasp of what they are dealing with.

They are not anything like your average scumbag republican politician.

I don't think there's a plot.

[SunSeeker]

16. That is horribly patronizing to the widow. And no justification for denying her viewing.

She said she knew "every inch" of his body and would know if it was his body. Just like her, I could identify my husband's body by just one of his fingers, his ear, a tattoo. I would not need to see his face. So saying she should be denied viewing because his body was too disfigured from decomposing for two days makes no sense. Two days is not long enough to obliterate all identifying features. And to suggest it is being done to protect her feelings is horribly patronizing. And wrong. What is causing her pain is not knowing if that is her husband's body.

It is unfathomable that she was denied this right. I would demand that an independent autopsy be performed, at which point a DNA test would be done to confirm it was her husband. This body was found over a mile from the site of the firefight that killed the other three. There is a possibility this is not even his body. And, as she points out, there is a possibility there is no body in that casket.  

CNN just interviewed a military casualty officer whose job it was to notify families of deaths, and he could not think of any reason why she would be denied this right. I think this is scandalous. 

[yallerdawg]

21. I agree with you.

It's one thing if relatives say he's gone.

But THIS government - which has lost ALL credibility?

They should have offered her or any other loved one CLOSURE.

[Ilsa]

23. They probably can't deny an autopsy, which likely would be easier on

Her than viewing the body itself.

I don't think it is patronizing for thanatologists, counselors, etc to make recommendations to a young distraught woman to help prevent PTSD. PTSD can develop not just from viewing the deceased, but some people develop it after sitting with a dying loved one. Not everyone is able to handle this, especially when they are already grieving. It's not being patronizing to warn someone of the consequences of not taking their advice. They are doing their job based on psychological findings.

And what if it is him, but doesn't look like him? (What if there isn't enough flesh? What if he was burned?) What is she to do then, if in her mind he is still out there? Does she live in denial because the pentagon says it is him?

If the Pentagon says it is him, I suspect they have enough biological material to prove it, but perhaps not enough for her to view.

[SunSeeker]

24. Why do you give the Pentagon the benefit of the doubt but not her?

If it doesn't look like him, then maybe it isn't him. She should have a right to demand an independent autopsy. That will confirm his identity. Let HER decide if she wants to risk PTSD by viewing his body.

[Ilsa]

31. The counselors with her probably see this a lot.

Her reaction is typical for the denial stage.

Look, if I see my dr and she has advice for me to help keep me healthy, even mentally healthy, I would probably take it. I simply don't think there is some ulterior reason for professionals telling her she shouldn't view the body other than it might not be recognizable or there may not be enough of it for her to see it and know it is him. It may not look anything like him, but is him, and that prolongs her lack of acceptance of his death.

The last Vietnam era funeral I attended was five years after the war ended, and nine years after the man died. His remains were not accessible for that long. Sometimes you accept that "these are his bones" and accept that he's been brought home for burial.

I don't trust plenty of people in charge in DC. But I don't believe all of the people involved in this are in on supporting some bizarre conspiracy to not deliver the body.

[SunSeeker]

49. ENOUGH! Let her see the body already. You are not doing her any favors.

Denying her the body is what is prolonging this ordeal for her.

[Ilsa]

57. I don't have power over the body, and I'm not keeping her from seeing

What's left of her husband. Call her. Tell her to order the exhumation. Keep this ball rolling.

I'm curious as to how this will play out now.

[SunSeeker]

63. Your OP suggests the military is right in keeping her from the body.

Last edited Mon Oct 23, 2017, 07:08 PM - Edit history (1)

The military is dead wrong in denying her right to view the body.

[Ilsa]

74. No, you are reading that into it.

My message is that there are professionals who deal with death every day, and that they are in a position to advise that under some circumstances, it might be better for the next of kin not to see the body. They may know if the body even looks like the person any more. They may have dealt with situations where they know it is the person, but after a traumatic death, the family won't accept that the body is the one named after seeing it. They may know that there is no way to predict who is likely to have post-viewing issues. They've been taught about emotional evidence of grief. Heck, my husband saw his father lying on the floor, dead, body intact, and he couldn't get rid of what he thought was a grotesque image for months.

I'm not privy to all of the conversations between the grief counselors and Mrs. Johnson, but I'm not going to fault them for recommending that she not view the body.

I'm angry and perplexed about what happened to the soldiers, why the WH delayed talking about it, why they are there, and especially how the Johnson family was treated throughout all of this, including the fake tweets impersonating her to try and discredit Wilson. I hate how the Congresswoman was treated, too, but she's a politician and knows how to deal with assholes. The Johnsons were a young family, not the son of a general or admiral, who would have appreciated appropriate acknowledgement of the family's sacrifice, but instead trump and kelly exacerbated this 24 year old widow's agony. Kelly treated her like a 55 year old war horse general with his advice to trump on what to say. The WH is a massively failing the military and the rest of us with their lies.

[SunSeeker]

79. They're not "recommending" she not view the body. They're DENYING her viewing.

There is no "good reason" for that denial, contrary to the title of your OP.

[Baconator]

104. Where does it say that in black and white?

She is the next of kin... She could do anything with that body.

There is literally no way to stop her if she wanted to see.

Who was their funeral director? I'll bet it was a civilian.

Were there armed guards preventing her or anyone else looking? I'll bet not.

This sounds like conspiracy nutters desperate to score political points but with no understanding of the subject at hand.

[SunSeeker]

108. MYESHIA JOHNSON SAID, "THEY WOULDN'T LET ME" :

Myesha Johnson said on "Good Morning America" on Monday that she was not allowed to see the remains of her husband, Sgt. La David Johnson, before his burial this weekend. "Why couldn't I see my husband? Every time I asked to see my husband, they wouldn't let me," she told ABC News chief anchor George Stephanopoulos.
...
They tell me that he was in a severe wrap — like I won't be able to see him," Myesha Johnson said. "I need to see him so I will know that that is my husband."

She added, "They won't show me a finger, a hand. I know my husband's body from head to toe, and they won't let me see anything. I don't know what's in that box. It could be empty for all I know, but I need to see my husband. I haven't seen him since he came home."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/widows-claim-raises-questions-military-prevent-viewing-loved/story?id=50667165

Is that "black and white" enough for you?

Here's the video of her saying that yesterday, it's at 0:59:

Are you calling Myeshia a "conspiracy nutter"? Are you calling Myeshia a liar?

[Baconator]

109. I'm asking who stopped her?

The body left the military control at some point and went to a civilian undertaker.

[SunSeeker]

110. You calling her a liar? nt

[Baconator]

111. I'm saying it's logically impossible...

Next of kin have enormous latitude with remains...

My wife could have had me stuffed and used as a hat rack with the right paperwork.

There's just no way to stop her and I suspect that her CAO and everyone else involved strongly encouraged her not to look.

[SunSeeker]

113. So you give the military the benefit of the doubt but not Myeshia?

How about reading the article I gave you on this very issue? The civilian undertaker did not get to embalm the remains. They were already wrapped and embalmed BY THE MILITARY.

According to Air Force Tech. Sgt. Holly Roberts-Davis, a spokesperson for Air Force mortuary affairs operations at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware, families are not allowed to see remains at the base. Families are made aware of that when they sign forms to gain access to the base to view the return of their loved one's remains to the United States. Exceptions may be made by commanders on rare occasions, she said.
...
Roberts-Davis was not privy to the circumstances of the preparation of Johnson's remains but provided general details of what can happen to remains that have suffered extreme trauma.
...
The remains are embalmed early in the process but are not dressed or wrapped until the day before they are released to the family, she said.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/widows-claim-raises-questions-military-prevent-viewing-loved/story?id=50667165


The military basically gave her a sealed mummy to bury in the ground. Myeshia said they told her she couldn't see him.

Yes, it is unfathomable that the military would act like this toward her. Just like it is unfathomable that Trump would get in an argument with her on Twitter. But they did. And he did.

You obviously refuse to believe her; that is revolting to see on this board.

[Baconator]

114. You seem desperate to make the facts fit your agenda...

I say again... Who stopped her?

The remains, at some point, are released to the family and a civilian undertaker.

The remains may have been wrapped up, embalmed and sealed but if she really wanted to she could have had mortician cut it open and do it all again.

There's literally no way to stop her other than encouraging her not to do it.

[SunSeeker]

115. You seem desperate to not believe Myeshia.

Myeshia said they told her she couldn't see the body, that it was in a "wrap." The article confirms the remains were already in a sealed casket AT DOVER, prepared for burial. The mortuary had no involvement with the remains other than to hold the funeral service. The military told her she could not have a viewing and that casket went directly into the ground in Florida.

This was handled horribly by the military and Trump. And now folks like you who refuse to believe her just add insult to injury.

[Baconator]

116. She is still the 'owner' of the remains...

... And she could do what she liked.

The military certainly can't force her to bury him.

It was almost certainly the best idea though since cutting open the bag would delay services for days and add extra cost and emotional stress.

Also possibly against his wishes as laid out in his pre deployment packet.

[SunSeeker]

118. Yes, she is the legal owner of his remains, but the military told her she couldn't see him.

He was already in a sealed casket prepared for burial. I imagine his "pre deployment packet" said he wanted burial, which is why THE MILITARY PREPARED THE CASKET FOR BURIAL.

And what did you expect her to do at that point? Take a hatchet to the casket? She's 24 years old and 6 months pregnant with 2 young kids. It is apparent she thought the military could prevent her from viewing the body. They told her she couldn't see his remains. Do you think she had the wherewithal to run to court for an injunction?


Jesus, now you are suggesting Myeshia violated La David's burial directives? Shameful.

[Baconator]

121. You can cut all the 'don't be disrespecting our brave troops wishes' on me Missy...

That is the exact point I've been trying to hammer into your head.

She had the technical and legal right but it was a bad idea for a host of reasons.

Condition of the body
Hermetically sealed
Already embalmed
Other stuff to deal with

None of those reasons were 'government conspiracy to keep her from viewing her husband's remains' or 'military barred this woman from exercising her legal rights'

[SunSeeker]

123. What's with your condescending, sexist "Missy" reference? You don't even know what my gender is.

What my gender is or isn't has nothing to do with this conversation.

But your resort to condescending sexism explains your disrespect for Myeshia.

I didn't say it was a "conspiracy." I said the military mishandled this situation by telling Myeshia she couldn't see the body. They should have offered to open the casket after she asked to see the body---after the first time she asked.

For all intents and purposes they did bar her from seeing the body, apparently for paternalistic reasons, which is insulting to Myeshia. Or, they denied viewing because there was no body and they are trying to cover up their fuckup. We don't know why they told her she couldn't see the remains. But that is what they told her. No member of the military is disputing that; only you and the right wing are disputing her statement that she was told she could not see the remains. You demanded to see it in "black and white"; you demanded to know who said that to her. But not once would you consider believing her first hand account.

It is apparent she thought the military could prevent her from viewing the body. They told her she couldn't see La David's remains, despite her repeated requests. I don't think she had the wherewithal to run to court for an injunction. La David worked in the produce department of a Walmart before joining the military. This is not a family of means. The military put her in an untenable position, she could not just take a hatchet to the casket. They effectively barred her from seeing her husband's remains.

[cwydro]

124. Wow, I read that response to you.

“Missy”

That is pretty telling.

[SunSeeker]

125. Yup. nt

[Eliot Rosewater]

129. That shit will take decades more to die out and with trump, centuries.

We dont deserve nice things, do we.

[Baconator]

131. We're saying the same thing...

She could have but didn't...

Easy peasy...

[SunSeeker]

132. No we weren't, I was not spewing sexism. You were. And no, she was DENIED viewing.

They told her she couldn't see the remains. The OP suggests that denial was reasonable. Your angle is that she was never denied. You're both wrong on many levels.

[SunSeeker]

139. No, she couldn't. I don't agree with your point, nor the sexist way you made it.

She was treated horrribly by both Trump and those who told her she couldn't let her see her husband's remains.

I absolutely do not agree with your outrageous assertion that even though she was told she could not to see her husband, and had no means to fight that, she was not denied the right to see her husband. It reminds me of dishonest Republican arguments that "access" to buy a health insurance policy is the same as being able to buy a health insurance policy.

Perhaps now that this had been exposed, someone can donate the funds needed to fight this and get an independent autopsy.

[Baconator]

140. Nothing's been "exposed"...

Also, she has 400 K in the bank right now (minus initial expenses).

She has the same option now that she did before and could do it on her own. It's just even harder because he's buried.

[SunSeeker]

141. Yes it was exposed, by Myeshia, who exposed being told she couldn't see her husband's remains.

That 400k is a SCHOLARSHIP FUND fund for La David's 2 (soon to be 3) kids.

She was never given the "option" to see her husband's remains before. She cannot do it "on her own."


There is no point in discussing this further with you. We obviously disagree on the point that having a legal right is very different than being able to exercise that legal right. I find your position on this abhorrent. It is the same position Republikkkans take with voter ID laws, claiming no one's right to vote has been taken away.

[Baconator]

142. Make sure you don't get any of that straw stuck in your hair...

In any case... You do admit she had the right...

[SunSeeker]

143. Don't worry about my hair. You're the one arguing with a straw man.

I never denied she had a legal right to see her husband's remains, but rather that the military denied her that right.

Just stop. You've repeatedly misstated the facts in this matter and seem only interested in insulting me. As I said, there is no point in continuing with this.

[Amimnoch]

46. Exactly.

Strongly encourage her is okay, but flat out deny?? Oh I'd be furious too.

Recommend alternatives (such as allowing her to name someone in the more distant family that she trusts to take a look first and advise her.) Maybe even a coroner from a funeral home that her family has used that she trusts to help her.

She needs closure. She is the ONLY person who has the right to decide what that closure need is.

[Hestia]

62. There is a saying, once you see or know something, you can never un-see it or un-know it

In viewing traumatic deaths such as these, the sight will be with her forever. Forever. When she hears her husband's name, it will most likely be the first thought that comes forth - the way he looked in death.

It is why there are grief counselors, who have probably told her the same thing. Personally, they are military and you know how they feel about their brother/sister soldier or marine...I don't think the counselors would do that to her. These are enlisted who were/are there since the Bush and/or Obama administrations. They aren't fly-by-nite morgue techs.

It's not about anyone's right to know/see or that they are or are not tough - it's not the way to remember a loved one.

Why would anyone want to see remains?

[SunSeeker]

64. To confirm that it is La David. nt

[JustAnotherGen]

144. Amen

And kudos to you for having an empathy chip. It's sorely lacking in America today. The condescension, arrogance, and cruelty shown towards Mrs. Johnson is astounding.

It's like people want to pretend Green Beret Johnson's life didn't matter.

[rainin]

20. They could have

allowed a surrogate to confirm it was him. Someone she trusts. At least she would know the casket isn't empty.

[mainstreetonce]

28. Yes

That is what should have happened

[defacto7]

35. That's it.

[iluvtennis]

30. His wife and his parents hould have been allowed to see his body, regardless of the condition...

...it's a part of the grieving process to be able to see the body of your loved one.

[Hekate]

32. If the widow and family had been shown some respect, sensitivity, and honesty...

...she and they would very likely have been more satisfied with the closed casket.

Instead, they were lied to and disrespected by Trump and his administration from the start, and when Trump was called on his behavior and lies he reacted in accordanced with his nature: he smeared and attacked the victims and tossed in the Congresswoman for good measure.

[Ilsa]

55. ITA. nt

[easttexaslefty]

33. There are things you can't un-see

[Wwcd]

34. Just adding this theory: it was said the body did not go through Ramstein Base

which is the normal chain of delivering soldier's bodies.
The private contractor delivered the body to Dover instead.

Why?
Perhaps there was no body.
Just adding this mystery to the mix.

I read this on twitter as to the flight to Dover rather than Ramstein.
Thre are a lot of questions but only one true answer.

The more I read, the more I find that this certainly would have been a private mission ordered by Trump, Tillerson, etc on behalf of Putin/Oil

I'm sticking with that .
They effd up & then covered it.

[Baconator]

105. According to?

[MaryMagdaline]

36. Her choice

I think they withheld the viewing of the body with all good intentions. That said, the widow is not a child. Once you have explained to her that the body was severely damaged, it is her choice to go forward. She said she knew every inch of his body. She asked to see "even a hand." Her name was tattooed on his chest. Was there NO PART of the body that she could view so that she would know for certain her husband was gone?

[defacto7]

37. No matter how we asses someone elses grief...

It's still her call.

No proper explanations? It's not because they care about mental health.

[WinkyDink]

39. This isn't about the gruesomeness we can ALL imagine. It's about a widow's RIGHT.

[madaboutharry]

44. Someone is dropping the ball.

This woman is entitled to have her questions about her husband answered. If the body is in such a state that it would traumatize her, then I agree with others that she deserves to have that explained to her. Tell her the truth. Tell her the reasons that she was kept from seeing him. Allowing her to be kept in limbo and have her thinking all kinds of dreadful thoughts is cruel. It just seems like the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.

[Ilsa]

45. Thank you. I suspect the same. nt

[HopeAgain]

51. This woman deserves the facts at least.

From what I understand, they won't even tell her what the condition of the body is.

[HipChick]

53. She is being lied to ...something is amiss

[adigal]

69. Why do we think they won't tell her? He was left alone, alive, yes? His locator went off

so what do we think happened to him?

I don't even want to type what has been going through my head.

[MFM008]

54. I would want verification

My son has a number of tats.
I would get what I want.

[SCVDem]

56. The bottom line?

We Do Not trust dump and his crooked lies and bullshit!

The coffin may just be another cover-up or diversion.

Give her peace and verify the body is her husband, by a civilian doctor.

[JI7]

58. She doesn't have to view it herself. But get some medical examiner or someone like that to do it

And just confirm to her it's him.

[MyNameGoesHere]

59. I do not agree

I want them plastered on every media format. Snowflakes need to know their war mongering has consequences. Same thing for executions.

And if a wife wants to go through that kind of pain and horror then let her. Let anyone that requests it. The horrors of sending men and women off on some idiots whim should be out in the open.

[Sam McGee]

67. Thank you . . . here's more

Most of us witness death as a fairly clean event . . . Grandmother is lying in the bed, surrounded by her children and grandchildren, she heaves one last sigh and is gone. Even in the case of someone who dies in surgery, from a fall, thrown from a horse, in an automobile accident -- usually the funeral home can reconstruct the face and body enough so they look normal.

Not so with deaths in combat. Military weapons are intended to kill and destroy. I put a lot of kids in body bags in Vietnam. Many of what went into the body bag was what we could find -- body from the waist down; a few pieces - odd leg, arm, head, hand; entire body with head missing except for lower jaw.

And, as the OP stated, there's decomposition. If we don't find you within a few hours, the maggots and animals start on you . . . and it's ugly.

The widow will have a full-time survivor's assistance officer. She also will receive a visit from a mortuary services officer who will have with him/her the form on which the condition of the body is described. That will be a tough visit but, we hope, she will then understand why the closed casket. I hope the Congresswoman is with her.

I was a platoon leader in Vietnam for eight months before being medevvaced back to the States with my own wounds. Ten of my troops were killed in that eight months, three of those were mutilated beyond recognition. I promised all ten and myself I would visit every family when I got out of the hospital. I did it . . . took over a year, I went all over the States at my expense to visit families. They appreciated it. If you've never been to war, you can't understand.


"War is at best barbarism. . . . Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell."
William T. Sherman

[Ilsa]

76. I'm so sorry you had to endure that.

Back in 1991, the military said they'd pre-screen personnel for body retrieval. I visited with Persian Gulf War vets later and they said "didn't happen."

[nvme]

70. PTSD

A person exposed to traumatic events does not necessarily develop PTSD. In fact, it has been proven that acute stress disorder if treated within a month of the event, drastically reduces the likelihood of a person developing the disorder. It is not recommended that Mrs Johnson see her late husbands body, but if she needs to see his remains to have closure that should be her choice. If she chooses to not follow recommendations, she could be prepped on what to expect. This would help to inoculate her from the stress she will experience. There is no perfect response other than ultimately the decision is hers to make.

[Ilsa]

75. I don't disagree.

It isn't possible to know who will be traumatized or to what degree.

I haven't heard any explanation from the Pentagon on how this developed the way it did, and whether there could have been any misunderstandings. But I started the thread because a lot of people thought it was no big deal to view a loved one under these very unique circumstances, and why would anyone try to talk them out of it.

[Raine]

72. Yes, exactly... nt

[bluestarone]

73. how divided are we?? For Christ sake it's her choice and

100% of us should be supporting HER CHOICE we can't even agree to this??????????????

[Not Ruth]

77. If they would let the public see the body, it would certainly dispel the romanticism of war

That is just one of many good reasons for transparency

[Thinkingabout]

80. My heart goes to the widow and family, viewing the body after the possibility of 48 hours after

death is not nice. hopefully she can find a way to remember him as he was in the good days, it still hurts now.

[WinkyDink]

85. MISSING THE POINT.

[kimbutgar]

81. My neighbor died on a Tuesday morning. She had a massive heart attack

Two days later her friend rang our doorbell saying she couldn’t get in touch with her. We had the key and the first thing I remember is the ghastly smell. At first I thought it was her cat’s litter box. We went upstairs and found her dead on her bedroom floor. She was bloated and her waste was on the floor. I can’t even imagine the smell and decomposition in the heat of Sgt Johnson. It’s best to remember them living and not have your last look at a loved ones decomposed, and possibility mutilated.

[HipChick]

82. Sorry you had to go throught that...

[flying-skeleton]

83. BUT !!!!!!

1. Is it really Sargent's body in the casket ?
2. Was he tortured to death ?

[WinkyDink]

84. I hate the word "folks."

[kcr]

98. Then I'm not the only one.

That is one of those words that personally grates for some reason.

[snooper2]

122. folks isn't that bad. Lots of folks use it. Now, the word twine is really annoying

Say twine ten times real fast. A useless word LOL

[Demsrule86]

86. If he was left behind and murdered ...we need to know... I would demand to see the body period.

It can't be worse than what I would imagine.

[WinkyDink]

88. I've concluded that the thread is simply to describe revolting details about bodily injuries and de-

composition. PERIOD.

[Eliot Rosewater]

89. Not your call to make, or the government, not in a million years

nobodies call other than the family, if they wanna see him, god dammit they should be able to see him.

For fuck sake

[sheshe2]

91. This.

[bluestarone]

96. this

[anneboleyn]

146. Exactly. This "oh the poor weak woman needs to be protected" makes me sick. HER RIGHT. HER SPOUSE.

[Mediumsizedhand]

90. I have people in my life that could give a look see and get back to me. I would not have to

see for myself and there are people that can handle it. Not your call. Or the govt's call. I know nothing of this situation and what was said, or the reality of it. Nor do you. But, I know I would want to know that mine was in that coffin.

[greatauntoftriplets]

92. Are you a mortician?

[still_one]

94. It should be up to the family, and no that would not be a

precedent

[Historic NY]

97. I am sure That the Master Sgt. that accompanied Sgt. Johnson home...

went over some of the unpleasant details with her.

[Tatiana]

100. It is her right as a surviving spouse to see his body.

Period.

There is no reason why she should be denied a viewing. Trump still refuses to speak on this issue.

They are covering something up and this young woman is smart enough to sense that something isn't right.

I hope the family is able to obtain an autopsy and they we get the facts regarding what happened to Sgt. Johnson.

[tulipsandroses]

101. I think its wrong to deny her the right to see her husband's body.

My partner was murdered 25 yrs ago. He was shot 9 times. Including being shot in the head. I needed to see his body. Granted, his body had not been out in the elements for 2 days. When I received the phone call that he was dead, all I thought about was that I need to see him. I went to the hospital knowing he was dead but I had to see him. I think my mindset would have been the same had his body been out in the elements for days. - There are many times that I have thought about that night. I can now only remember his face, I can't remember his wounds. Maybe I've just blocked them out. I know I wouldn't have wanted anyone to tell me that night, its best not to remember him that way.

I'm just flabbergasted that Trump, Kelly, et al think that in the immediate aftermath of realizing that you have lost your husband and the father of your children, realizing that your unborn child will never know her father, that in that moment, the appropriate thing to say was he knew what he signed up for.

[Snackshack]

102. True...

There could be any number of reasons why a body is not viewed. Ultimately it is her right and decision if she has asked and been told that she can’t there is a problem. After the blatant exploitation and outright lies by the government concerning the death of Pat Tillman. I would not put anything past the government (especially this administration) to hide or spin the death of a soldier in a manner favorable to them. Trump clearly would use such an event to whatever advantage he could to distract and change the conversation and in that sense he has done exactly that with this as long as this is the topic Russia is not.

[anneboleyn]

103. This post is patronizing. She is an adult; she is not a child. You are projecting your ideas and

your responses onto a woman who is an adult and fully capable of making her own decisions. There is no reason why others should be making choices for her based on some notion that she will be "traumatized." Of course she realizes that his appearance will be nothing like it was and that his body likely displays savage wounds (including, possibly, massive brain injury or even decapitation -- but it's still her choice!!!) and higher levels of decomposition.

But trying to claim that she is too delicate to see the body is vocalizing nothing more than an age-old stereotype about women being too weak to see the difficult things in life, especially in war. Never mind that women bring these young men marked for death into the world amidst pain and blood and torn flesh as his mother cries out in pain. These women know the true pain and the blood that accompanies a child's birth. It's ridiculous to pretend that she's too delicate, now we have women in battle, women in the police, women doctors, nurses etc, all of them see carnage and all live with it. They serve us nobly, with incredible fortitude. Thank god for them. In my opinion the gov or army stepping in (or worst of all anyone on DU) to prevent her from doing so (looking at his body and witnessing to his sacrifice) is the deepest violation of a woman's rights. It is grotesque, and frankly a violation of our rights.

In fact the excellent hbo movie Kelly mentioned, about the return of a marine's remains, shows that his family DECIDES not to view his body after it is recommended that his remains are probably not suitable for viewing. They permitted the family to look and to decide on their own. And THAT'S THE BEST WAY TO HANDLE THIS. They did NOT treat the family like children and take their choice away from them.
,'
I have no idea what you are getting at but I think our culture has a pathetic relationship to death as it is -- we hide it away at all costs (and of course the bereaved are often caught off guard by the absurd demands for the SUPER SEALED EXTRA SOFTPADDED CASKED SURROUNDED NY A CONCRETE VAULT THAT PLAYS NONSTOPPSSŚ?.We do everything we can to hide it's I In the 19th century families kept deceased family members in the home for a wake and then off to burial. No circus makeup and embalming. The modern trends of embalming, covering up the face with makeup, etc, shows our terror of the reality of death. I highlyyour responses onto a woman who is an adult and fully capable of making her own decisions. There is no reason why others should be making choices for her based on some notion that she will be "traumatized." Of course she realizes that his appearance will be nothing like it was and that his body likely displays savage wounds (including, possibly, massive brain injury or even decapitation -- but it's still her choice!!!) and higher levels of decomposition.

But trying to claim that she is too delicate to see the body is vocalizing nothing more than an age-old stereotype about women being too weak to see the difficult things in life, especially in war. Never mind that women bring these young men marked for death into the world amidst pain and blood and torn flesh as his mother cries out in pain. These women know the true pain and the blood that accompanies a child's birth. It's ridiculous to pretend that she's too delicate, now we have women in battle, women in the police, women doctors, nurses etc, all of them see carnage and all live with it. They serve us nobly, with incredible fortitude. Thank god for them. In my opinion the gov or army stepping in (or worst of all anyone on DU) to prevent her from doing so (looking at his body and witnessing to his sacrifice) is the deepest violation of a woman's rights. It is grotesque, and frankly a violation of our rights.

In fact the excellent hbo movie Kelly mentioned, about the return of a marine's remains, shows that his family DECIDES not to view his body after it is recommended that his remains are probably not suitable for viewing. They permitted the family to look and to decide on their own. And THAT'S THE BEST WAY TO HANDLE THIS. They did NOT treat the family like children and take their choice away from them.
,'
I have no idea what you are getting at but I think our culture has a pathetic relationship to death as it is -- we hide it away at all costs (and of course the bereaved are often caught off guard by the absurd demands for the SUPER SEALED EXTRE PADDED CASKED SURROUNDED NY A CONCRETE VAULT.We do everything we can to hide it's I In the 19th century families kept deceased family members in the home for a wake and then off to burial. No circus makeup and embalming. The modern trends of embalming, covering up the face with supe
makeup, etc, shows our terror of the reality of death. I highly, highly recommend the YouTube videos and writings of the smashing Caitlin Doughty (she also have as Ted talk and a recent AMA thread of highly recommend the YouTube videos and writings of the smashing Caitlin Doughty ( kkkkl
l

[mercuryblues]

117. Has anyone

who said she can handle the smell ever smelled a body after 2 days in the heat and in rapid decomposition? I have, You never forget it, Ever. The problem is that once it reaches that point it does not stop decomposing or smelling because it is put on ice.

I do think that they told her not to view the body because you don't ever forget that smell. Pretty much you don't want your last memory of him to be this. It has been over 30 years since I got the honor of that smell and I still remember it.

That being said after she was told all of this and she still wanted to view the body, by all means let her.

[heaven05]

119. really????

my, my, my we have an expert here in how a family member should react to a situation such as this tragedy. CT's have become truth with ANYTHING associated with this administration....russia never.....oh never mind...that's CT also. Been there, smelled that. As Mrs Johnson said, "let me see a hand, anything, I know my husbands body from head to toe". Too many questions surrounding his body being left for 48 hours on the field of battle, while..cough, cough, the other 3KIA and WIA's were evacuated same day.

[Not Ruth]

126. Just to be clear, the widow does not believe that her husbands remains were what she buried?

[SunSeeker]

128. Myeshia said she does not know if there is anything in that box, because they wouldn't let her see.

Myesha Johnson said on "Good Morning America" on Monday that she was not allowed to see the remains of her husband, Sgt. La David Johnson, before his burial this weekend. "Why couldn't I see my husband? Every time I asked to see my husband, they wouldn't let me," she told ABC News chief anchor George Stephanopoulos.

They tell me that he was in a severe wrap — like I won't be able to see him," Myesha Johnson said. "I need to see him so I will know that that is my husband."

She added, "They won't show me a finger, a hand. I know my husband's body from head to toe, and they won't let me see anything. I don't know what's in that box. It could be empty for all I know, but I need to see my husband. I haven't seen him since he came home."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/widows-claim-raises-questions-military-prevent-viewing-loved/story?id=50667165

[lapfog_1]

127. if she wants to see him... she is an adult and it's her husband

perhaps they should show her a photograph first... but it should be up to her.

[Tree-Hugger]

130. Rude

Stop infantalizing this woman. She herself said she needs to view his remains. It is her choice. She owes no explanation. I am sure she is well aware of the ghastly sights and smells (though preparation of the remains would lessen any odor) that are possible. She still has a right to view the body.

I work closely with women who have lost babies. I, myself, have suffered a miscarriage. I held my own tiny little underdeveloped, bloody, dead for 2 weeks, baby in my hand. Many women will choose to see and hold their babies who have died in utero, even the ones who were lost early on - like mine - and don't resemble anything human. Dead, desiccated unborn babies can be a horror show to view, but parents have that right to see them. It's a primal need for many people. If someone expresses that need, it should be honored. If it was my husband, I would need to see him.

[lillypaddle]

136. It's not a conspiracy theory

to say it is her fucking choice! She knows what condition her husband likely is in, but it isn't up to anyone else to decide. Same premise with the abortion issue. Choice.

[Orsino]

137. Irrelevant to a next-of-kin who wants to see the body anyway.

It's not the widow's job to determine how and why he died, and the way she chooses to grieve isn't anyone else's business.

Hiding the body demonstrably produces conspiracy theories. That much is inevitable.