Hunting rifles and hand guns

[SHRED]

I think we should allow for hunting type rifles with very limited capacity for hunting ONLY.

Hand guns on a personal protection need basis with a very high bar permit/license.

All other firearms have a one year grace period to turn them in or face mandatory minimum prison sentence.

Period.

Yeah...I can dream can't I?

[oasis]

1. "Personal protection need basis" for hand guns. Uh no.

Hand guns are in my home to protect my family. Nobody's gonna talk me outta that one.

[Spider Jerusalem]

31. A handgun in the home is statistically much more likely to be used on one of the occupants...

than on a burglar. But by all means cling to your security blanket.

[Lee-Lee]

35. Actually the studies that pushed that have long been debunked

Most people citing that statistic are quoting from the results of the 1986 or 1993 Kellerman study in the NEJM. In the 1986 version Kellenan claimed a gun in the home was 43 times more likely to kill someone in the home. His revised 1993 work dropped that to 2.7 times.

It was a horribly flawed study both times- starting with he only chose to study 3 counties that were all dense urban areas with high rates of gang activity. And he then assumed all the rest of the nation was the same. There were many other issues as well from the Case Control Method he used that couldn’t provide accurate data to how he defined a household and a resident to what the survey population he ended up with looked like when compared to the general population (his survey population was more likely by a high degree to have a criminal history, history of drug abuse, history of domestic violence, etc)

He has refused to this day to release his raw data to reviewers. He will only release his “adjusted” data sets.

But that this keeps getting cited shows the staying power of a lie.

[Spider Jerusalem]

42. Nope

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1559827610396294

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2013.301409?journalCode=ajph&

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0001457502000490

[Lee-Lee]

45. Well lets see

Your first link is just a list of studies of varied results- and includes that long discredited work by Kellerman so they clearly don’t have any standards for what they put on the list and are just linking to every study.

That they include Kellermans work as being credible destroys any credibility they have in their conclusions about what the body of the work says. Including garbage science leads to garbage conclusions. Looking at the choices for what they chose to list it is clear they loaded the list to lead the direction they wanted and don’t care if it was backed by valid science or not.

Your second article doesn’t back up your claim about guns in a household at all, but is a study based on state level data.

Your third study compares accident rates without contrasting them to defensive gun use, so if also does nothing to prove your point. Of course if you have guns in the home your more at risk of an accident with guns. Just like if you drive you are more at risk if an auto accident or if you swim surf you are more at risk of a shark attack than someone who live in Iowa.

[Spider Jerusalem]

46. Care to address the 95 other cited studies?

[aikoaiko]

2. The VATech massacre shooter used two ordinary handguns w standard magazines.

If reducing mass shootings is your aim, handguns can do the job just as well as a rifle at close range.

[TexasBushwhacker]

10. Yup. The vast majority of firearm homicides are committed with handguns n/t

Suicides too. Outlawing semi-automatic rifles might cut down on mass shootings but will barely make a dent in the overall homicide total.

[obliviously]

17. Why do you want to make it

hard for people to end their lives, shouldn't that be their business and not yours?

[Phoenix61]

3. I'm with you Shred

Happy dreams for both of us. Now if we can just get the crazies to get on board.

[SHRED]

4. I figured I would get pushback even here

Thanks though.

[american_ideals]

5. YES! Handgun ban. Single-shot hunting rifles ONLY.

This is the future of American gun control.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

6. What is your goal in this scenario?

[SHRED]

7. I'm not going to play that

[Adrahil]

13. Rule number one: know what you are trying to accomplish. NT

[friendly_iconoclast]

14. Not gonna muddy your dream with grubby reality, eh?

In that case, I hope you've resigned yourself to a future of result-free typing about gun control...

[SHRED]

16. No

I'm not going to answer loaded questions.

[friendly_iconoclast]

18. Your mooted near-prohibition of guns won't be brought about by online screeds

I've seen antigun dreamers like you come and go from DU. Most simply didn't have the stomach for
hard political campaigning, and nothing I've seen so far from you gives any indication that
you're in any way different from them.

Ginning up an amen chorus at DU does not translate into votes or a lasting political movement.

[MyNameGoesHere]

34. I haven't seen but I know this

Slavery came and went
Women not being allowed to vote came and went
Ban on gay marriage came and went
Interracial marriage bans came and went

We dreamers have history on our side.

Your gunz will eventually come and go. Because eventually those dreamers will make it happen. So scoff away and count your days, because eventually your gunz will come and go.

[aikoaiko]

37. If you look more carefully you'll see those dreams expanded civil liberties and rights.

Onerously restricting guns from no prohibited civilians would be a reduction in civil liberties.

History is on the RKBA side.

[MyNameGoesHere]

40. It is a civil liberty for the majority.

We don't want to be killed by your fucking gunz. We outnumber the cave people.

[aikoaiko]

41. Yes that civil liberty and right exists too.

The majority has often tried to reduce the civil liberty of a minority group.

Solutions will require respecting all civil liberties.

"Cave people?" Really? Your use of ad hominem reveals you.

[friendly_iconoclast]

51. And they were brought about by people voting, not patting each other on the back online

You don't have the votes

[Eko]

8. maybe

We could do something like turn in a handgun and get a hunting rifle or a shotgun, I mean as far as home protection goes nothing says gtf out like a shotgun.

[Nevernose]

9. We could start with background checks and registration

That would solve a hell of a lot of problems right there.

[TexasBushwhacker]

11. No private sellers, no straw buyers, no gun show loopholes

If you want to sell your gun, you have to do it through a federally licensed dealer who will do the proper background check. The delay for NICS should be more than 3 business days too.

[Nevernose]

24. If conservatives are so concerned about Chicago

Universal background checks and registration would eliminate a whole hell of a lot of the illegal gun trade with a stroke of the pen. No more straw buyers. At the very least the guy who’s bought six hundred Glocks in Gary Indiana and doesn’t know where any of them are now is going to get asked an awful lot of questions by the ATF.

Of course ATF are three letters that have been neutered by NRA, but that’s part of the registration problem.

[Lee-Lee]

38. Its cute that you think people who ignore laws now will suddenly follow a new one

You’ve never been around criminals much, have you? Your kind of naivety is interesting.


It’s already illegal for people to buy or sell guns across state lines without an FFL. A person buying more than 1 handgun in a short period is reported to the BATFE by law, there is a special form for it.

If someone buys a bunch of guns in Indiana and sells them to an Illinois resident they are committing multiple felonies.

Pass a new law and they won’t care.

[friendly_iconoclast]

50. Massachusetts doesn't have Chicago's alleged problems with guns from neighboring states

For those unfamilar with our geography, New Hampshire and its liberal gun laws are about an hours' drive or
less from a large chunk of Massachusetts' urban population, and Vermont and Maine are only a little farther away-
straight up I-95 or Route 3 in Eastern MA, likewise I-91 from the Springfield area.

Any would-be straw buyer is an only a day trip away from a big haul, if they are so inclined.

Yet Boston and environs have far lower violent crime and murder rates than Chicago, and the most antigun
MA politicians will all tell you that our gun laws work.

It's obvious- Indiana gun laws *aren't* driving violent crime in Chicago.

[samir.g]

12. "Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in."

This has to be the goal, eventually.

I'm sure that it won't happen all at once.

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. No doubt it would be as effective as bans on alcohol, heroin, and cannabis have been...

[jberryhill]

19. Arresting someone in possession of illegal firearms

Is a whole lot different than waiting to find out what’s on the mind of the guy walking by the playground with an AR-15.

Yes, laws are broken. But that’s an argument against laws.

[friendly_iconoclast]

20. How do *you* propose to gain the acquiescence of those who would be criminalized?

Gun control advocates take to their keyboards.
Gun owners go to the polls.

[jberryhill]

22. From their cold dead hands of course

[friendly_iconoclast]

23. And would you be one of those doing the taking?

Or would you be in the Trump/Romney/Nugent/Keith contingent in this proposed 'War on Guns?'

Eh, no matter- you don't have the votes, and the Morlocks don't care what the Eloi think of their dining habits...

[friendly_iconoclast]

25. I thought as much- 'Chickenhawkism' is rampant amongst culture warriors of all stripes...

[ClarendonDem]

57. Nope

I would actively oppose such a law, or anyone who supported it.

[roamer65]

21. Shotguns are used for hunting so I would allow those...but...

Only hunting rifles, shotguns and highly regulated handguns allowed.

I would also end the “shall issue” of concealed pistol licenses.

All assault style weapons would be banned along with the ammo for them. You would have 1 year to turn them in or you get whacked with a felony.

Also I would institute a Federal Ammunition Purchase permit system and database for rifle, shotgun and handgun ammunition purchases.

[Snackshack]

27. Agreed.

But honestly a gun is a gun is a gun no matter what shape. The most effective way of reducing the violence is limiting the ammo capacity. 5-7 shots max. If a person needs more...go practice.

The 2nd says nothing about what type of firearm one has a right to own only that one can own a firearm. Single shot bolt action and pistols are firearms so there is no infringement.

[Baconator]

29. That's like limiting folks to printing presses..

Automatical legal fail...

[GulfCoast66]

44. Quite a few states limit magazine size and it passes legal muster

Limited magazine size, UBC and expansive offense that make a person ineligible to own guns would go a long way.

Oh, and enforcing current laws. Felons caught with guns often get a slap on the wrist. 2-3 year prison would make them more reluctant to possess. But first let the non-violent drug offenders out!

Proposing gun bans lose elections for us.

[Baconator]

28. As long as you're willing to dump a solid chunk of the Bill of Rights...

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

30. Guns for hunting should be kept locked up,

and only accessed during hunting season with a valid license. And limited bullets.

Guns for target shooting to be kept at the shooting ranges.

No one needs a gun.

All of you who so assiduously defend gun ownership, ask yourself this: How do other countries manage?

And then look at photographs of murdered children, or the video recently taken in Texas. And if after seeing those you still defend gun ownership I'll suggest you're a psychopath and truly should be barred from gun ownership.

[Straw Man]

33. No one?

No one needs a gun.

The CDC begs to differ:

Guns are used for self-defense often and effectively. “Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year … in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008,” says the report. The three million figure is probably high, “based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys.” But a much lower estimate of 108,000 also seems fishy, “because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.” Furthermore, “Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was 'used' by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies.”

-- "Rethinking Gun Control"

All of you who so assiduously defend gun ownership, ask yourself this: How do other countries manage?

What other countries are we talking about? Are we talking about Brazil? Japan? Norway? What do you mean by "manage"? Do you mean "Avoid becoming crime victims"? Do you mean "Exercise their rights as free people"? Your question is impossibly broad.

And then look at photographs of murdered children, or the video recently taken in Texas. And if after seeing those you still defend gun ownership I'll suggest you're a psychopath and truly should be barred from gun ownership.

Ah, the old Catch-22: the only people who should be allowed to own guns are the people that don't want to. Who thinks this stuff up?

I have a radical suggestion for you: Guns are morally neutral. Guns killed innocent people in Orlando and Las Vegas and Sutherland Springs. Guns also ended slavery in America and defeated Hitler. It's all about human agency and intention.

[forgotmylogin]

32. I'm totally for no guns, but...

I actually like the idea another poster suggested:

5 years in jail if you are found in possession of an unregistered gun or someone else's registered gun without them present.
20 years in jail if a crime is committed with a loaded or unloaded gun.

Guns aren't registered now, are they? They should be, like cars. Commercial sale or private sale, you fill out the gun registration paperwork the minute it's bought or you're going to jail if you're caught with it.

If your registered gun is lost or stolen or sold, it must be reported within 72 hours or incur a fine. If an owner's lost gun is used in a crime and they didn't make an effort to report it missing (within reason), they can also be fined or incur jail time.

[Lee-Lee]

39. What do you think the cost would be to do that?

And do you think spending that money on that is the most effective way to reduce crime as opposed to spending it elsewhere like targeted programs that reduce poverty and provide opportunities for those most at risk, domestic violence intervention programs and mental health care improvements?


If you don’t have an idea of the costs, I have run the numbers before using cars as an example.
You should too.

Oh, and no, you can’t mke gun owners pay for it. That would be thrown out by the courts as fast as a poll tax or even a voter ID that costs money is. You can’t put a fee on exercising a right.

Keep in mind 2/3 if gun deaths are suicides. This won’t stop that. Of the rest around 80% are gang or drug trade related- this won’t stop that either. They will still get stolen guns (reporting them stolen won’t stop that they were) or get a straw buyer (typically the new gang member with no record yet or a girlfriend). So you will have a very minimal to no effect on most gun deaths.


So- do you know what it would cost, how much crime do you think it would stop, and is that the best use of that money for what effect you will get?

[forgotmylogin]

47. I just made the suggestion.

You can do all the research you want.

You can’t put a fee on exercising a right.

You mean like the license plate fee I pay every year to operate my motor vehicle legally or the property tax I also pay for the privilege to own it annually? Or the insurance I am required to carry in case someone is harmed while I do so?

[Lee-Lee]

48. Having and driving a car isnt a Constitutionally protected right

The courts have left a clear amount of case law on that.

Owning a gun and voting and free speech are, so there is a higher lever of scrutiny to restrictions on those than driving or owning a car.

If you tried to charge a voter registration fee to cover the costs of maintaining the voter rolls it would be similarly unconstitutional.

[forgotmylogin]

49. Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness is a guaranteed right.

Yet the government happily taxes almost every aspect of those.

"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is a well-known phrase in the United States Declaration of Independence. The phrase gives three examples of the "unalienable rights" which the Declaration says have been given to all human beings by their Creator, and which governments are created to protect.

[Lee-Lee]

52. You should go back to junior high civics class

The Declaration or Independence is not the Constitution and does not establish what is and is not a Constitutionally protected right.

[forgotmylogin]

53. I won't tell you where you can go.

You either have a right, or you don't.

The government exists to protect the rights of the people. For it to exist, it needs to be funded.

I have the right not to get shot in a gun massacre because someone carries a gun they should not have.

[melm00se]

54. while your argument is flawed as the

Declaration of Independence is not the framework upon which the USA government is based I'll play.

The right to Life and Liberty presumes the right and ability to defend those self same rights. By eliminating arms from civilian ownership, the ability for many to defend their lives and liberty are similarly eliminated.

Not everyone (in fact not very many) are able to defend themselves from direct physical attack by someone younger, faster, stronger and more skilled. Arms, specifically firearms, provide a technological leveling of that field.

[forgotmylogin]

55. The Constitution can be amended.

I hope you're not implying that your right to carry a firearm somehow trumps my right to stay alive.

Many of the victims of gun massacres would not be dead if the perpetrator had tried the same attack bare-handed instead of having the advantage of enormous firepower and distance. We've adjusted our attitudes since 9/11 that even if a terrorist is holding a boxcutter, they can't kill everyone massacre style if potential victims band together, and stopping them is the primary task.

Mind you, I've not advocated taking guns away from the populace. I'm only suggesting we should keep track of them like the deadly weapons they are, and make sure they're only in the hands of the correct, responsible owners.

The fact that gun advocates cling like barnacles to the second amendment and attempt to shut down mere discussion of gun regulation shows there's a huge problem and that the NRA is successfully brainwashing gun owners.

[melm00se]

58. No one is disputing that

but take a look at what is required to do so:

3/4 of the states are needed for ratification. 38 states. It is not a struggle to identify 12 states would not vote for ratification.

[forgotmylogin]

59. Flying contraptions

“Those will never take off! They should give up!”

“Votes for women? That will never get through Congress!”

“Repeal prohibition? Insanity!”

“Trust me, marijuana will NEVER be legal.”

[MyNameGoesHere]

36. I really wish folks would stop

Luring the deniers, enablers and educators out of their cave. Leave them in their darkness please.

[HAB911]

43. We just need to buy all the kids these

It's open season and there's just nothing we can do so,

This Florida school is selling bulletproof panels for students' backpacks

Florida Christian School is selling bulletproof panels that go inside students' backpacks. The head of school security said he has taught teachers how to instruct students to use their backpacks to shield themselves in the event of a school shooting.

(CNN)A Miami private school is offering parents an unusual item for sale: bulletproof panels for their kids' backpacks.

The Florida Christian School website has a list of items available for purchase. These include winter wear, red school logo T-shirts and ballistic panels.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/07/health/bulletproof-panels-backpacks-trnd/index.html?sr=twCNN110717bulletproof-panels-backpacks-trnd0459PMStory

[NCTraveler]

56. I would like to go further.

I would be happy with something like this as a starting point.