Ill just say it: Fuck Prayer. Its useless, self-aggrandizing navel gazing.

[stopbush]

Someone had to say the obvious.

[BootinUp]

1. The real issue is whether elected pols

Should be praying on our time.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. Then you should definitely stop doing it.

What other people do in private to make themselves feel better is their business.

[trotsky]

3. It's our business when they expect it to take the place of an actual response to gun violence. n/t

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

6. Of course. The whole "thoughts and prayers" wish is no more useful

than liking somebody on Facebook and is nothing but a way of pretending in public that you gave a damn. But if somebody wants to pray because they believe in some deity or other and are seeking comfort through that supposed communication, that's perfectly OK with me.

[gratuitous]

4. Well played

No sense trying to understand or communicate with people when you can just tell them that they're doing their grief wrong. Nicely done. I'm sure you'll persuade millions. I can just see all those survivors in Texas smacking their foreheads V-8 ad-style, but instead of saying, "I coulda had a V-8!" they'll say, "Fuck prayer. All this time I thought it was one thing, but now I see that it's useless, self-aggrandizing navel gazing. I never would have thought of that if it hadn't been for someone who doesn't understand me, my culture, or my traditions giving me the real story."

[cwydro]

69. Thank you.

So many here seem to think they’re superior to others. It’s very unattractive,

[Cuthbert Allgood]

75. So when Ryan says we SHOULD be praying

and that's the right thing to do, that's OK, too, right? He shouldn't be talking about policy options when there is PRAYER!

[Ezior]

5. I gave it a try. Doesn't work for me.

If it helps to calm down, or whatever, cool. My boyfriend seems to enjoy praying once a day. I imagine it would help godly people to cope with very difficult situations, like losing a loved one.

I'm pretty sure it won't help against killers with guns though.

[yortsed snacilbuper]

7. trump business meeting.

[dhol82]

55. Awesome toon!!!

Doesn’t look like a recent one either.
Give a crook an inch and he will take the cake!

[Madam45for2923]

8. Congress' job is not to pray. They can pray all they want but that's not what we send them to DC.

[liberalmuse]

9. "I'll pray for you."

Mostly said by condescending assholes who don't want to spend anymore effort helping their fellow humans than whispering a few words to the ether to make themselves feel special. "Thoughts and Prayers" is a one of the most meaningless phrases ever uttered.

[samnsara]

34. its like "Bless your heart"...

[liberalmuse]

65. THIS.

Maybe it's just my experience, but whenever someone tells me they will pray for me, it means that they pity my heathen soul. It's not meant out of kindness.

[gibraltar72]

35. When I've

been told that I say I'd rather you just spit at me!

[hamsterjill]

10. To me, it's a personal thing.

I do it and gain comfort from it. I am a believer.

It is when I start trying to force my beliefs off on another person that I cross the line. I don't cross that line because what another does (that does no harm to me or others) is that person's business.

Politicians should uphold the Constitution; not the Bible. I believe in separation of church and state.

[NastyRiffraff]

57. I wish all believers were like you

Unfortunately, many (most?) are not.

[chimpymustgo]

61. May I ask you what you believe in? The Bible? Immaculate conception? Adam's rib?

Truly curious. Appreciate your responses.

[hamsterjill]

68. I don't know that I can answer your question honestly.

Because my beliefs seem to stay in a constant state of flux. I am pretty low key, and believe more than anything that you cannot force religion on someone. That probably stems from my upbringing as a Southern Baptist and having had fire and brimstone forced on me at times. I left that part of things behind years ago.

To me, and please see my first post on this issue because this is just "me" and applies only to me, Jesus is about love and understanding and acceptance and probably more than anything, forgiveness. Many times of forgiveness of ourselves.

I hate the fact that the right wing crazies have hijacked Christianity - or at least my view of Christianity. I despise all of the fear mongering, the fueled hate of anyone who might be different or look different, and I despise the use of religion to diminish lifestyles or genders.

More than anything, I openly admit that I DON'T REALLY KNOW. No one does. I recently saw an interview with Betty White and she was talking about what her mother would tell her when someone died. The mom would say "she knows the secret now". I thought that was profound. Because until we die NONE of us knows. Understand here, please, that I am separating the words "know" and "believe" We can believe things that we do not know, but we cannot know everything that we believe.

I don't think that anyone who believes differently or doesn't believe is any better/worse/smarter/dumber/wiser, etc. than the rest of us. I believe that we are each on our own individual journey, and it is that journey that is the ultimate test of who we are. I firmly believe that each of us in our own way should leave this world in some way better than when we came into this world. We all have contributions to make. It's a shame when a whole group of people decide that only THEIR way is the right way.

[liquid diamond]

71. Sorry you have to put up with shit

like the OP. And this bigotry and hate has 44 recs so far. Some here are just as hateful and nasty as trump supporters.

[hamsterjill]

73. Thanks.

It is up to each person to belief as they see fit. I don't take it personally.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

81. What the OP is doing is saying that what the Speaker of the House

said about praying being the right thing to do is bullshit. Do you think the Speaker of the House was right to say what he did as a policy maker?

[liquid diamond]

82. The OP is worded as a general statement.

They are hateful and knew exactly what they were doing.

[NCTraveler]

11. It's not useless.

Someone had to state the obvious.

[Voltaire2]

18. You are right. When studied it has a slight negative effect

on medical patients who know they are being prayed for. It is less than useless.

[NCTraveler]

20. You are not correct that its useless.

Many people feed off of it in an extremely positive way.

Absolutism in areas like this fails more often than not.

[Voltaire2]

44. "absolutism"? I said it is perhaps a net negative.

Nothing absolute about that. What I noted is that when serious people have set about trying to measure the effect of prayer they came up with somewhere between "no effect" and "a negative effect". When the targets of prayer did not know they were being prayed for, there was no measurable effect either positive or negative. When they did know, there was a slight negative effect.

"Many people feed off of it in an extremely positive way" - and you know this how? What objective standards were used to measure this?

[WoonTars]

19. For whom, the person praying, or the person/thing being prayed for/about?

Because every serious study I've seen over the years days it doesn't do a damned thing.

[NCTraveler]

21. The person doing the praying.

The reasons for which are very different for different people.

[Voltaire2]

26. So are you claiming that it might be useful for some people or all people?

Do you agree that it might be harmful for some people? For example, for people who pray instead of seeking medical help?

How should we weigh the cases where praying causes real harm vs the cases where it provides "comfort"? Should each be considered equal? For another example, a political party in this country insists that as a nation we should pray together instead of implementing gun control. How should we weigh the harm that causes to society vs the benefit derived by individuals engaging in prayer?

[Bradshaw3]

28. So what you are saying is they are doing it for themselves

not the person who is suffering. "I'll pray for you" to make myself feel better. It doesn't do anything for the person I am praying for, of course, just makes me feel better at a time they are hurting.

[kentuck]

12. What about freedom of religion?

We can't use one freedom (freedom of speech) to destroy another person's freedom to pray (religion)?

Can we?

[trotsky]

14. Was someone's freedom to pray destroyed today by a post on DU?

Wow, I had no idea.

[kentuck]

17. I certainly hope not.

If they're going to dish it out, then they have to be ready to take it...

If you say something controversial, someone on DU is going to respond.

However, I do believe that the "freedom to pray" is a huge component of the freedom of religion.

It is my opinion that the Democratic Party needs to speak with one voice, not a thousand different voices.

[wysi]

38. Everyone has freedom to pray

We also have the freedom to mock.

[kentuck]

46. Is there a limit to how much one can mock?

If it prohibits the prayer in any way, would it be OK??

Speaking of freedom of religion as it might be interpreted in our Constitution.

We understand that there are limits to free speech. For example, we cannot scream "Fire!" in a crowded elevator if there is no fire.

[Funtatlaguy]

13. Growing up in the South

Prayer is just expected.
People have prayer circles and prayer chains on the phone.

God answers prayers, you are told.
But, sometimes, the answer is no.

But why do bad things happen to good people who prayed for a better outcome?
Because: God works in mysterious ways.

Religion can not be argued.
If you’re a believer, it’s because you have faith.
If you don’t believe, you can not prove that something doesn’t exist.

[maveric]

22. So no logic whatsoever.

[Kirk Lover]

15. While it is useless to me, most people seem to find comfort in it especially because they

believe that someone is actually listening. To each his own...and I stress that.

[Wounded Bear]

16. Much like "funerals are for the living"...

Praying is more for the pray-er than the pray-ee.

[demosincebirth]

23. Then, don't pray.

[stopbush]

24. I dont pray. Ill send $, but no fucking praying.

[yortsed snacilbuper]

25. Wasteful spending: Congress pays clergy $66,000/hour to pray

Since 2000, your Congress has spent more than $10 million on prayers, the vast majority of which are to the Christian god (more than 96% of prayers in the House were Christian).

The Senate Chaplain’s Office has a budget of $436,886 this year. The House Chaplain’s budget is similar, but it was not a line item—it was lumped in with $24,980,898 for the “salaries and expenses of the Office of the Clerk, including the positions of the Chaplain and the Historian.” However, the Senate chaplain has three staffers—a director of communications, a chief of staff, and an assistant—while the House Chaplain only has two staffers—an assistant and a liaison. The salaries alone for the three in the House chaplain’s office top $345,000 according to InsideGov. Add expenses and Congress is spending $800,000 every year on its opening prayers.

Read more at http://www.patheos.com/blogs/freethoughtnow/wasteful-spending-congress-pays-clergy-66000hour-to-pray/#0DM93qZASTdXSETH.99

[defacto7]

27. You have as much of a right to say this....

as people have the right to pray. I just don't want to hear it, receive it, pay for it, be forced to put up with it or have it waste my time or my government's time. Prayer that is.

Now.. just stop it! And take it ro Atheists and Agnostics group!!!



Or not.

[perdita9]

29. Action gets results

Prayer as a form of meditation might help the person doing it, but offers no benefit for the person you're praying about.

[amuse bouche]

30. Yup

[OldManTarHeel]

31. I Can't Stop Praying . .

it's what I do best.

[IronLionZion]

32. But thoughts? Some have given up on thoughts long ago

prayer is more for the person praying to feel hope. Plenty of liberals pray for good liberal things to happen.

It's closely related to focusing thoughts and intention like many hippies like to do with meditation and yoga. It's not bad just because Republicans say it as an excuse to avoid sensible gun legislation.

[samnsara]

33. im 100% atheist...but i also realize some people need this...

...form of involvement. As long as they don't force it upon me or expect me to be involved in their ritual I'm ok with whatever they want to do. And they cant pray away any debts owed to me...I want cash up front.

[BigmanPigman]

36. Ted Lieu is my hero for saying he wasn't "going to do

it again" and walked out of "the moment of silence". It is a meaningless gesture from the hypocritical, God fearing, gun and money loving GOP/NRA.

[Honeycombe8]

37. It is helpful for a believer to pray for himself. It's not very helpful from a govt official.

A believer of whatever religion prays because of his/her beliefs, and it does give people comfort unto themselves. Giving a moment of silence or praying a moment for someone else is more a sign of respect and to say, "We acknowledge your grief and loss. You matter."

But it's not what you expect from a govt official in an official capacity. Their job is to DO something about the issue.

But I don't knock people's beliefs in any of the various religions. If it works for you, then it works for you. Sometimes the burden is so heavy that it helps to think that a God or something else can carry part of it.

I know it helped, when my favorite dog Buddy died, to think that I would see him again. It was very comforting.

[Cryptoad]

39. May the Great Spirit Bless and Comfort you, Friend!

[yallerdawg]

40. Poll: Views of Democratic Party hit lowest mark in 25 years (Front Page LBN)

I can't imagine why.

"I'll just say it: Fuck Prayer. Its useless, self-aggrandizing navel gazing. Hey! And welcome to DU!"

[pnwmom]

41. +1. nt

[grossproffit]

45. Bingo! And, some still wonder why we keep losing. It's not rocket science, people!

[chimpymustgo]

62. What's your suggestion? Prayer DNC prayer groups?

I ask, with all due respect.

[grossproffit]

63. No, of course not. Prayer is personal. I would never impose my religious beliefs on others.

[kentuck]

47. Yeah....

It's hard to agree on anything...

[stopbush]

49. Right. The country was 100% behind Ds, but then someone posted

“Fuck prayer” on DU and support plummeted.

[Orrex]

50. Exactly.

I'm a lifelong Democrat, but then this post comes along...

[yallerdawg]

59. Over 25 years.

Our goal is to be despised just like the Republican Party?

We aren't labeled with 'liberal elitism?'

Intolerance for mainstream Americans is our new norm?

[yallerdawg]

58. How does this make us more inclusive?

How does this broaden our base?

Black A.M.E. churches vote 90% Democratic? We don't need them?

[Liberalagogo]

42. Here ya go:

[pnwmom]

43. Well, bless your heart.

[Enoki33]

48. Im not presumptuous enough to categorically declare that prayer

is a waste of time. There are way too many variables to and no definitive answer. However, as human beings we are wired with a consciousness that the majority fail to develop without using religion as a prop, which defeats the purpose. I see, read and hear of those, especially GOP politicians, who commit moral crimes Monday to Saturday and forgive themselves in a tax evading prayer building on Sunday. On Monday they start the cycle all over again. I lean towards prayer as a feel good waste of time. It is absolutely no replacement for logical, sensible decisions affecting both personal and public policy decisions. Summation- there is a inner consciousness far more important than prayer.

[stopbush]

52. Even prayers to Odin?

[Enoki33]

64. Whoever that works for. Their choice.

[stopbush]

66. So, we agree it does absolutely nothing for the person being prayed for,

or for society in general.

[Skittles]

51. it's something people do to make themselves feel better, without actually doing anything

[cachukis]

53. An important study from 2006 authored by prayer people.

Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer
By BENEDICT CAREYMARCH 31, 2006
NYT


Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation.

The question has been a contentious one among researchers. Proponents have argued that prayer is perhaps the most deeply human response to disease, and that it may relieve suffering by some mechanism that is not yet understood. Skeptics have contended that studying prayer is a waste of money and that it presupposes supernatural intervention, putting it by definition beyond the reach of science.

At least 10 studies of the effects of prayer have been carried out in the last six years, with mixed results. The new study was intended to overcome flaws in the earlier investigations. The report was scheduled to appear in The American Heart Journal next week, but the journal's publisher released it online yesterday.



http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

[haele]

86. I can believe prayer being good as a self-affirmation.

However, I've never seen where prayer actually affects the outcome for someone else. People might have better outcomes when they personally pray for strength, calm, inspiration, whatever...because the act of praying itself may give them something to use as a mental reference.

But when someone else or a situation is being prayed for - the weather has more effect on that person or situation than a prayer from an interested party.

I'm an animist. Everything in the whole wide world to me has some form of a spirit or energy, as well as body or mass.
However, if I did believe in a single God that created the Universe, I don't understand how could I possibly be so special in the entire creation that my prayers will count that much more than that of any other being supposedly created or given a soul?

Haele

[LuvLoogie]

54. Prayer should never be a substitute for action.

Prayer can be a focusing of purpose, a fortifying of resolve. To dismiss prayer out of hand is unwise and knee-jerk. One doesn't have to stifle the intellect to be religious. Tenets and doctrine are always in flux, despite the teachings and interpretations of men.

There are many Godly people unworthy of your contempt. Though I get where you are coming from.

[TomSlick]

56. We're missing the point.

Whether or not prayer is effectual is not the question. The pols calling for thoughts and prays are not expecting God to intervene. All the pols are doing is attempting to obfuscate. If it gives a pol comfort to pray, then by all means s/he should pray. If prayers leads a pol to see the importance of finally doing something, that would be fantastic.

Whether of not a pol's prayer does any good for anyone, s/he needs to get of his or her numb butt and do something.

[gtar100]

60. I disagree with that sweeping statement.

Just because prayer is abused and misunderstood by so many people doesn't make prayer itself useless. Let's say, as an analogy, that you and most people don't know how to fly a plane and yet you see many people trying to fly without success and some people telling others how to fly the wrong way. Do you conclude that flying a plane is useless? Probably not because it's obvious that someone actually has to know what they are doing to make the plane fly (and land safely). Well, I can say from experience there are right and wrong ways to pray. If "navel gazing" isn't your thing, I doubt you really care and probably wouldn't give a second thought about it if it weren't for the parade of charlatans using prayer to deceive people. So I understand your sentiment but I see prayer as a very powerful tool subject to both good and bad uses. My experience contradicts your assertion and I'm no expert. I try sincerely and still get it wrong sometimes. So just putting my two cents out there.

[stopbush]

67. Right ways and wrong ways to pray? Seriously? Who wrote the rules? You?

Your airplane analogy is ridiculous. Airplanes can be flown, because they are scientifically created things from the mind of man.

A truer analogy to prayer would be the following: you see people leaping off a 1400-foot-high escarpment into a canyon, attempting to fly by flapping their arms. Are you going to tell me that there is a right and a wrong way for men to fly in such a situation? Are you the one in possession of the knowledge that tells people the right way to fly off a cliff using only their arms?

That, my friend, is prayer.

[cwydro]

70. Why do you care so much?

How is it bothering you?

Do you stop women wearing burkhas and spout off at them for following religious tenets?

[stopbush]

74. Doesnt bother me. Ill thank you to not mischaracterize the simple

offering of an opinion.

“Why are you so angry? Why do you hate people? Why are you so unhappy?” Typical bullshit nonbelievers hear from believers. Fuck that.

[cwydro]

77. Im not a believer, but you sure do sound angry.

I don’t pray but I sure don’t mind if others do.

I hope things get better for you. Anger is damaging to the one who holds it.

[stopbush]

78. !

[cwydro]

79. Aww.

Looks like you’re feeling better already.

[bluestarone]

83. you do

have a very real problem! A lot here can sense it! you really hate people just because they choose to pray? If some get nothing more than comfort WHY does this bother you? I feel sorry for with all that hate for Christians that pray! Have a good day

[stopbush]

84. Again, saying I hate Christians because they pray is self serving.

First off, why do you only mention Xians? I wasn’t specific in saying anything about Xian prayer as opposed to Jewish etc prayer. Yet you get your panties in a wad about Xian prayer. Says a lot about you and nothing about me.

I don’t hate anyone. I hate the stupidity of wasting one’s time praying to themselves. Hate the praying, love the one praying, right? I don’ care if the prayer comes from Xians or cargo cults or any other religion. It’s self-absorbed naval gazing. There’s no imaginary supernatural entity listening.

[G_j]

72. MLK Jr. prayed

AND acted.

[cwydro]

76. Churches do a lot of good.

In every place I’ve lived, they feed the homeless, provide clothing and help for those who need it.

So ironic all this “hating religion” stuff here. Invariably, when someone posts here that they are in dire straits, at least half the replies will advise the poster to go to Catholic Churches and others for assistance.

[MountCleaners]

85. The white evangelicals think that their theology is the ONLY Christian theology

...many Christian faiths teach that one must act, not just pray all of the time. I grew up Catholic, and we didn't stress prayer, that one can also come close to God by doing good for others. Also that we can use prayer to contemplate doing what is RIGHT.

They're pushing their theology on every other Christian as if it is the ONLY correct way to be Christian. Never mind that there are lots of us who aren't Christian or even religious!

[Alea]

80. That's ok OP, I'll pray for you