Sexual abuse of young teens is endemic in some organizations

[MineralMan]

There's a lot of it in churches, too. Searching for phrases like "youth pastor charged" in Google news will turn up a long list of people who have offended in that way by grooming and sexually abusing young teens of both sexes. As you search for that, you'll see a number of megachurches show up in news stories in those search results.

An example can be found at:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-saddleback-youth-mentor-20170526-story.html

The problem is often due to a lack of supervision of these "youth pastors" and "mentors" in churches. They are often in close contact with young adolescents and often act as counselors and advisers. That situation enables those who are looking to take advantage of the youthful people they encounter. They are in a position of trust, and can easily use that position to convince some youngsters to do things they would not otherwise do.

The problem also exists in any setting where adults form relationships with young people, and the stories of abuse are many and frequent. It's not just churches, but churches are especially suited for predators who seek to ensnare kids in their sexual fantasies. Church leaders who work with teens have a unique setting from which to gain trust and take advantage of it.

Sadly, this is far more common a situation than is reported publicly. I remember one such "youth pastor" in the church I attended as a teen. He was caught, but was not punished, except by being terminated from his position. The whole thing was covered up, but those of us who were in the group supervised by him knew about it. The girl he abused simply stopped coming to that church and the whole thing was hushed up. That was back in the early 1960s.

It goes on in far more churches than people know, and some denominations are especially prone to it. Megachurches often have multiple "youth pastors" and little to no supervision of them. Parents need to be aware and watchful, anywhere their children are in a position to form personal relationships with adults. There is a lot of potential danger there.

[RKP5637]

1. This one comment to the article sums it up well IMO.

"Because all religions are man-made and led by a bunch of hypocrites who make and bend their own rules based of fictional books based on false gods and beliefs."

[Wounded Bear]

2. I'm sure most of us remember the big stink over the Catholic Church...

and it's handling of this very issue. Their "solutions" to the problem were never very convincing to anybody really paying attention.

I'm sure that the Church is far from the only religious institution allowing this kind of behavior. Certainly, it is common among those we call "cults" but I'm also not so sure that there is a bright line between "cults" and "Christian churches."

Problems like this are endemic. Because is it usually partnered with secrecy and shame, it is hard to root out.

[MineralMan]

3. It was never just the Catholic Church.

The problem exists wherever bonds of trust between adolescents and adults occur. Churches are just such a place, and youth ministries are just such a situation.

Adolescents have all sorts of issues to deal with. It can be a troubling, confusing time of life. Some adults, sadly, take advantage of that to take advantage of young teens. There's a big demand and a short supply of people to fill such positions in all denominations. Seminaries are struggling with low enrollment numbers.

The result is that more and more poorly trained and vetted people are becoming youth leaders in many church organizations. That leads to the wrong people being in the wrong place, to the peril of the most vulnerable of young people.

And it is always the most vulnerable who are exploited, too. A good percentage of people who were involved in church youth groups quickly become aware of "creepy" pastors and other youth leaders. Most successfully avoid them. However, there are always some who are vulnerable and who are targeted.

I've seen it happen. My wife saw it in her former religious life. She even had to cleverly put distance between herself and one "creepy" pastor as a youth worker herself during her college days. She escaped harm, but it's likely some others did not. The "creepy" one was still there.

Many others who will read this thread have seen it happen. Most will have taken warning and avoided situations that might have lead to problems. Others, however, did not.

[Wounded Bear]

7. Oh, I know...

I gave up on church when I told my mom I didn't want to go any more. I think I was about 12-14 or so.

I never personally experienced any of that kind of abuse, nor did I know anyone who might have. But then, I've been basically anti-social (or as I like to say a-social ) all my life, and I'm pretty good at ignoring things around me.

Not much of a "joiner" here.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. People with an unhealthy interest in children and teenagers

are often drawn to organizations and programs that work with kids. Most of the people who are employed by or volunteer for these organizations just like helping and teaching kids, with no ulterior motives, but there are always a few pervs that show up for the purpose of gaining access to them for unsavory purposes, and these groups have an obligation to watch out for them. Some years ago the Boy Scouts put together a program and policies to deal with the problem, and other organizations picked it up and implemented it. I used to belong to the Civil Air Patrol, which is an organization sponsored by the Air Force whose primary function is using light aircraft for search and rescue (a function that will probably be mostly taken over by drones). Its secondary function is its cadet program, through which kids ages 12-18 can get into aviation and related activities. In some cases it can be a way to get into the Air Force Academy, if that's what a kid wants to do. Most of what I did involved training and flying SAR missions but sometimes I took the kids for airplane rides to get them introduced to flying. Anyhow, CAP, which had adopted the Boy Scouts' program, had quite a number of rules for people who worked with the kids - for example, most overnight activities like camping had to have adult chaperones of both genders. Everybody was made aware of what constituted inappropriate behavior relative to the cadets - like not trying to date them.

I remember a member in his 30s who "fell in love" with a 17-year-old girl in the cadet program and started taking her out on dates. When the relationship was discovered he was immediately kicked out of the organization, never to return. He protested that the relationship was consensual and they were "in love," but it didn't matter - out he went. He was a nice guy, a good, reliable member who had been in the organization for years but he had to go. As I recall, the girl's parents also made sure he wouldn't come near her afterwards.

What churches do to protect kids in youth programs probably depends on the particular denomination or individual church. I expect that as a result of the publicity surrounding the many instances of molestation committed by priests in the Catholic Church, and the resulting lawsuits (the Diocese of Minnesota had to file bankruptcy because of the many lawsuits arising from predatory priests), at least some of them are trying to be more careful about screening and supervising youth pastors and others. The point is that there are a lot of predators out there, and it's up to any organization that serves children and teenagers to be damn careful about whom they allow to work with them.

[MineralMan]

9. Yes. Clearly, those who want to take advantage of people who are young

seek out opportunities. And, as you say, most organizations in that line of work have methods that work to prevent such people from getting access to youngsters. But, none of those methods are foolproof.

It's important for parents and others to carefully monitor organizations that involve their children. Volunteering is one of the best ways, since it allows parents to observe from their adult, protective position. Sadly, in a busy world, that's not always possible. Personally, I think that if parents aren't able to observe their children's activities to some degree should probably avoid signing their kids up for them, but that's just me.

It's even more dangerous when parents don't maintain solid communication with their children and stay involved with their personal lives. That's especially true when adolescents aren't behaving typically. Yes, it can be part of adolescence, but should always be something parents are aware of and inquire into.

I don't know, but I'm awfully tired of reading about incidents like Roy Moore and other such abuse of young people. They happen far too frequently.

The vast majority of adults are not predators. It's only a tiny minority, but everyone has to be aware that the danger exists and remain watchful.

[Dave Starsky]

16. Moore said he sought permission from the girls' MOTHERS.

Interesting that he should leave the fathers out of it. Was that because he didn't care what the dads thought, or did he specifically target girls whose fathers were out of the picture, because he feared--no doubt correctly--that he would be offered a knuckle sandwich in return for his entreaties?

[MineralMan]

22. I do not believe a single word Roy Moore says, frankly.

[Dave Starsky]

23. But even as a lie...

That seems like an odd and very telling choice of words.

[yardwork]

25. I noticed the same phrasing and gad the same thought.

Looks like Moore targeted vulnerable young people. That's what predators do. They seek out people with difficult family situations, children and teens with absent parents. Those children are more easily coerced.

[HAB911]

5. Examples

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/

http://www.silentlambs.org/

http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm

http://protestantya.com/index.php/pentecostal


many many more

[MineralMan]

11. Yes, it's all very well documented.

People just don't want to think about it, I guess. I don't have children. If I did, though, I'd be more than a little concerned about their associations with adults.

[Igel]

6. Yup.

But we put walls around certain environments.

If you're in a sports program you run into this. No church need be involved. That can be a gymnastics academy, it can be a locally run youth sports organization.

It happens in schools, but because nobody trusts teachers, because teachers are told never to touch a student or be alone with a student, and because finding a truly secluded place is difficult, it happens less. But not because teachers and schools are inherently better than church workers and church buildings. And it still happens more than we hear about because situations involving minors aren't routinely reported to the news--and the parents just want the issue to go away, and the teachers are punished in relative silence. (Then often move to another state and get credentialed again.)

It happens in Boy Scouts. Masonic organizations have strict rules on putting kids and adults together in small groups.

But church groups are common and since they're often not beholden to a single central authority, because members are exhorted to trust each other, because many church programs are understaffed and so a church worker will be working by him/herself, it's easier for predators or those who don't set out to predate to take advantage of kids.

[ismnotwasm]

8. Im going to point this out again

The word most often looked up according to Pornhub is “teenage”—this is a problem that transcends churches, and runs deep in our society. The age consuming the most Porn is around 35. Pornography responds to demand, but it also manipulates the market. No, I’m not “blaming” porn for pervy assholes. It’s an interesting correlation though.

And I agree, any place claiming superior morality in matters of sexuality is at risk for attracting unsupervised abusers. Whether it’s Boy Scouts or churches.

[MineralMan]

12. Yes. We have an unhealthy sexual interest in youth.

I've seen those claims about porn searches. They're troubling, to say the least.

[Solly Mack]

10. In over 20 years traveling around the country and world with the army

My husband and I have never once - not once - moved to a post where one of the three below situations were not taking place or soon to take place.

1: There was an already ongoing investigation into a chaplain assistant for sexual misconduct with a minor

or

2. Recently completed investigation with a trial in progress or about to begin.

or

3. Trial over, chaplain assistant serving time.

Always a chaplain assistant (for whatever reason - I don't know) and from time to time, both the chaplain and their assistant were involved.

We thought we struck gold in Germany. No recent arrests, no recent investigations, no recent trials, no recent incarcerations. (and we would be in the position to know because of his job and my volunteer work)

Within 6 months all that changed. Yet again, another chaplain assistant. Understand - in ALL the cases the various chaplains knew either through their own involvement or from reports from parents and kids. The reports of abuse were all too often ignored and brushed aside - until it got so bad they couldn't be ignored.

I have a ton of good stories about our time in the army - but this isn't one of them. It was scary. You move to your first post and hear the news, you're hoping they get all the abusers. You get to your second post and it's happening again - you hope it's a fluke. Then the third and the fourth - you're cringing and dying inside and keeping watch over the neighborhood kids - by the fifth post you're looking at everyone in the chaplain corp as sexual predators and keeping an eye on all the kids around you to help keep them safe.

You know it's not all chaplains and all chaplain assistants - but it happens so often you can't take the chance. You simply can't allow your child to be the test case for trust, know what I mean?

[MineralMan]

13. I suppose so. And the military is so fluid and

temporary. It makes sense that problems show up wherever you are stationed. But the same thing happens in cities and small towns all across the country. It's almost a daily thing, really, somewhere.

[Solly Mack]

14. It does. You're right. Happens everywhere, all the time.

Being a relatively small and closed community made it seem unusually high but the truth is the numbers within the military track with the civilian community - making the problem one that touches people all over the country and in all walks of life.

Predators tend to go where their victim pool gathers. Places of worship, schools, boys/girls clubs, scouts, etc..

[MineralMan]

17. And worst of all, those predators choose their victims

from among the most vulnerable. Most teens have pretty good radar for creepy people. They respond by simply avoiding people who make them uncomfortable in any way. Unfortunately, there are always some people in any group of young people who either lack that radar or have emotional issues that make them likely targets.

And the predators have a keen eye for the vulnerable. That often leads to their being undetected for a long time. That's why most cases where someone finally blows the whistle bring other incidents involving the same predator out into public view. The abuse has typically gone on for some time and has harmed multiple victims.

As I said, I and my friends recognized the creepy people, but we didn't report that to any adults. We just avoided them. Unfortunately, our avoidance and failure to report what we felt allowed others to be abused, without our knowledge. Maybe we need to work on educating kids who are unlikely to be victims to report creepy adults to us. Maybe that would result in the predators being caught sooner. I don't know.

I remember one older man in my church's congregation. He was a deacon in the church. He had a reputation among the teen girls for being way, way too "hands-on," and everyone knew that among our friends. I don't think anyone ever said anything about it to any other adult. The girls just kept their distance from the dirty old man.

As far as I know, he never sexually abused anyone. At least, I never heard of it happening. But who really knows? I'm thinking that we should have mentioned it to our parents at the time as a concern. But, we never did. We just stayed out of reach.

[Solly Mack]

20. They absolutely do have a radar for picking the most vulnerable.

And that is one major reason they get away with it for so long.

[moriah]

15. I was the reason the local BBS community started implementing safeguards.

My parents didn't know a blessed thing about the computer I had taken over when Mom bought it to do word processing at home, and my Dad didn't know what he was sending me as a late 12th birthday gift -- he just knew it was something for computers an adult friend of his had just upgraded and didn't need, knew I liked computers, so sent me a 1200 baud modem in 1992.

I'd always heard about them and of course had seen movies. I was super excited. Got a ride to the local computer store from Mom to get a list of the local free systems I'd be able to access with it.

They didn't censor the list, and I quickly learned that there were ones I didn't need to call. These were essentially servers people had set up on their own home PCs, so they could see everything you did. When it asked for my name, age, address, phone number, during registration, I gave them truthfully. The SysOp, the guy who owned that PC, was watching.

He took over the session and surfed me straight to their porn section. I hit alt-H to hang up. My phone rang. "Hello?" "Did you just call my BBS?" "Yes, sir..." It was obvious I was really 12 talking to me. "Don't ever call this one again, little girl."

But I persisted, and found places that weren't porn-oriented. I was always honest in registration about my age, and a few times the owners of the systems messaged me on them to ask if I really was that young, though it was to restrict my access to any adult sections they had. I chose a handle that luckily was interpreted by most people to mean I was a male college student, when I meant it to indicate I was new to the BBS world.

And when there was a community gathering at a Pizza Hut for their buffet/salad bar, my mother didn't think it was unsafe for me to meet these strange people in public. It resulted in several of the owners realizing that kids would start calling, and some adults with teens older than me considering whether they could benefit from community. They, of course, would be supervising more closely than mine were, and one childless Christian Air Force couple went out of their way to befriend my mother and essentially look out for me as best they could since Mom was totally clueless.

When I was groomed by a predator, who was the stereotypical 20-something who couldn't have a relationship with a woman his age, all I had to do was tell that couple he "tried" to kiss me. I didn't want to go further into what had happened past that, and knew it would be enough.

Without me ever being embarrassed or shamed or spoken to by any other operator of a system I called, he was banned from every system that didn't require real names be used. When he tried to register new accounts, they implemented call-back verification. As newer systems that were more than just one line developed, people had to apply for adult access and submit their identification, because by then the predicted "unaccompanied Juvie invasion" had started. I was merely the first.

Too bad the "Internet killed the BBS Star" in that way, but considering every single person I was talking to lived within an easy drive of me, such safeguards were very appropriate.

[MineralMan]

18. Absolutely. I was a BBS Sysop, myself.

I had a very popular BBS in my community. It was full of shareware software and had discussion areas, as well. I was very hands-on in its operation and it didn't take long for it to get infested by creepy people. There were many youngsters who used it, mostly to download games and chat.

After detecting a couple of ugly incidents involving creepy people and the kids who used the system, I completely changed the access rules. The discussion areas were not private and I monitored them all closely. One day, I simply wiped out the membership database and forced voice communication with me before allowing anyone to become an active member of the system. Everyone had to join the BBS again from scratch. You could sign up, but had to provide a voice phone number, which I would call and verify before allowing any access. No answer, no access, and I kept the phone numbers on file for every member. No screen names were allowed. You had to sign on with your real name. I simply wasn't going to have any of it.

All of the crap simply stopped. There were no more adult/youngster incidents of any kind. Occasionally, some moron would act like a troll on the discussion area. Zero tolerance was in effect, though, and that person would never be seen again after the first incident. I ran that BBS from 1987 right through 2000, even after the Internet was available, simply because it was also home to my tiny little software company. I just didn't allow any nonsense to go on.

[moriah]

29. Neither did the owners here. That couple owned a system, and..

... the person who had started grooming me had started it by saying he'd help me start my own.

So by the time he felt comfortable enough to make a move, I'd actually been to the local SysOp meetings, my little system was on Fidonet (1:3821/13), and the truly influential owners had all met and interacted with me. I sucked at the volleyball games we had as part of those monthly events, but none of us were particularly athletic. And my groomer didn't accompany me to those, my mother or that couple had been my rides.

I suspect that my guardian angels simply held an emergency meeting without me, and the safeguards went into effect immediately, including the call-back verification software so that at least it was *harder* to make an account.

I had learned enough from him to understand the complex batch file required for a WWIV system to run Fidonet and door games, so when I decided to move over to using Renegade instead it was a breeze. The little systems got pushed out of the way mostly except for TradeWars and Food Fight, etc, as the multi-node systems developed. I kept mine as mainly a TW game and Renegade and WWIV software/support/door game repository.

Fortunately those were pay per month for unlimited access, so they had information routinely given to give over to police to track anyone reported to be grooming or worse.

And while there was some sad "Boys will be boys" when young males were accessing adult things vs how they sheltered obviously female juves, such as pretty much not monitoring private chats but telling every person who indicated they were under 18 they could report anyone being inappropriate with them to a certain administrator (who happened to be a mandated reporter because of his RL field, why he was chosen) and they would be assured complete confidentiality and the person would not be able to contact them through the system at all again....

The next time there was a scandal, which turned out to have been caused by someone making a duplicate account, faking the call-back verification, pretending to be a "female lesbian witch", and accepting "credits" for hotchatting with the boys to avoid paying and giving out real information.... once it'd been determined he'd not contacted any of them IRL (they all thought he was a woman), the perp was banned on all accounts and publicly mocked, and the hotchat issues mentioned in forums that only the adults or vetted young people could access. None of the victims were ever named, but HE never lived it down.

In fact, someone won a costume contest the next Halloween at a gathering by wearing terrible drag dug up from Goodwill and essentially clownishly done female makeup, and a witch hat with a nametag with that user's "alternative name". We had more than one trans person and many others in the LGBT community, and all approved of the mockery of someone who was NOT trans or LGBT smearing their good names by talking to kids like that, especially kids who thought they were talking to a woman.

[MineralMan]

30. Self-policing was the norm, I think.

And that's a good thing. Still, there were a lot of BBS sites that were pretty dark and ugly, as I remember.

I was happy to pull the plug on mine when I did. I ran a Wildcat BBS. At one point, it was a two-line system, with live chat capabilities. If I was logged in at the console, we could even have a three-person chat.

Boy, have things changed!

[MineralMan]

21. That's a pretty broad claim you're making there.

I doubt that it is actually true. I'm not a fan of that religious group, but I think you're going too far with your accusation here.

[Takket]

24. they do the same thing the catholic church did.......

They move abusers around from congregation to congregation, and institute an impossible to prove "two witnesses" requirement to any abuse allegations. (How many pedophiles ever abuse kids with another witness in the room watching it all?)

https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2017/aug/30/citylights-judge-orders-jehovahs-witness-release/#

This is just one example...........

[MineralMan]

26. No, thanks. Really.

Reread your original title, please. Please don't broadbrush any religious group in that way here.

[jberryhill]

27. Same story - 1980s

[MineralMan]

28. Same story - Always, I'm afraid.

[doc03]

31. There is even some among the Amish but it is never reported nt

[MineralMan]

32. I'm sure it occurs in all cultures and groups.

People just need to pay attention to the groups their children frequent. Paying attention is the thing. In many cases, parents are less involved now in their children's activities away from home. They're just too busy or something. You need to show up, meet the adults who are involved and say, "Hi, I'm Suzy's father," and look the adult in the eye. They need to know you're around and care. If you are and do, they will take a pass on that child in most cases.

[cbdo2007]

33. I'm shocked at how many people I know who slept with teachers...

In high school. Like just personally I know of 5...all back in the 90s, and I didn't know about it happening at the time, but it has come up since then and is quite disturbing how many teachers are not just open to it but looking for it.