It's nice for those basketball players that they've been returned.

[MineralMan]

Last edited Wed Nov 15, 2017, 03:33 PM - Edit history (1)

However, what were they thinking back when they were in China? I simply don't get that at all. I don't want them getting 10 years in prison over some shoplifting, but the issue should never have arisen.

Don't steal stuff. That's a pretty simple rule. Doh!

Edit to add:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-ucla-basketball-china-20171115-story.html

The players have admitted the shoplifting.

[cwydro]

1. Privileged kids.

They knew they were safe.

I find it very sad. These are not role models for our kids.

[MineralMan]

4. Perhaps. Or perhaps they thought of themselves

as some sort of stars with special privileges due to that. I don't know, but stealing stuff is wrong whether you have privilege or not. It's so simple. They were college students on a team. Did nobody address how to behave in a foreign country before they went there?

Uff da!

[cwydro]

19. Yes.

I find this disturbing,
.

[SweetieD]

20. How do you know they stole anything?

[MineralMan]

22. Perhaps we will never know the answer to that question.

I know they were arrested and were being held. Typically, sports teams and the like are treated with kid gloves in most countries and given the benefit of the doubt.

So, no, I don't know whether or not they actually stole anything.

[pnwmom]

42. Because once they were safely back in the US they apologized and accepted a suspension.

If they were falsely charged do you think they would have done that after they were on US soil?

[Dorian Gray]

47. right.

[Dorian Gray]

46. They apologized

for their actions and didn't deny it. So it's pretty safe to assume that the reports of them stealing sunglasses is true.

[Dorian Gray]

45. What they did was shitty

They learned a lesson, though. Hopefully a big one.

And they're suspended. Hopefully for the rest of the season.

They should lose all basketball related scholarships to UCLA, too. If they have them.

[underthematrix]

2. In 2008, the Chinese govt had a program to teach shopkeepers

how to spot African Americans stealing. It was based on the assumption that African Americans are thieves. I need to hear from the young men what actually happened. If they say they shoplifted or their parents say it then I believe it. But right now. My judgment is on hold.

[underthematrix]

6. I'm African American and 66 and was there on the front lines of the civil

rights movement. You don't get to tell me what to call myself. Have a seat.

[underthematrix]

12. That's fine. you don't understand the evolution -

I went from colored to Negro, to Black to African American. Back in the day, we shifted from black which we saw as a condition to African American to establish and cultural legacy that was beyond our slave history. Also, not all people of African descent have a slave history. So African American is more encompassing of our different but shared histories.

[unblock]

24. my wife and i are in a similar situation, and my resolution is simple:

my wife and my boss are both white people born in africa, but neither of them are "african-american" any more than would refer to myself as "european-american". i'm just "american", "white american", or "half austrian/half ukranian-american".

if i care to point out where my wife was born, i refer to her as "nigerian-american". similarly, my boss is "south african-american".

charlize theron is also "south african-american".

simple. white people born in africa are actually born in specific countries and can be identified as such, just like irish-americans or italian-americans.

this leaves the continent-referencing "african-american" to apply uniquely to black americans, at least in situation where they don't care to be identified simply as "americans" as well (as of course they have equal rights to that term). referring to the entire continent is meaningful to americans who are black because it unites people from multiple cultural heritages, who have much diversity but also much in common as a result of european colonialization, american slavery, and post-slavery unequal treatment. that continental unity is not nearly as important for white people born in africa.

of course, african-americans can also identify themselves as coming from a specific country if they wish, as well, but reserving "african-american" for americans who are black is important to them and doesn't inconvenience white americans born in africa, so what's the problem?


simple.

[underthematrix]

33. Huh? Europeans are native to Europe.

[unblock]

35. but americans of european ancestry don't often identify themselves as "european-americans"

if they want to identify themselves regarding their heritage, it's by country, not continent. "irish-american", "italian-american", greek-american", etc.

and if they're doing so, it's usually to specifically point out the differences from, not the commonalities between, that particular country and the other european countries.


of course, african nations similarly have differences, and americans from those countries could refer to themselves as e.g., "nigerian-american" if they want to, especially if to highlight something specific about nigerian heritage.

but the expression of something in common among many nations from africa implied by the term "african-american" is important to the community of americans who are black, and apparently not so important to white americans who have a heritage from african nations, so why not reserve the term "african-american" to refer to americans who are black, and let americans who are from african nations avoid that term and identify by reference to specific countries, rather than the entire continent?

[Rhiannon12866]

43. Though it is true that many Americans - of any heritage - don't necessarily know what that is

If it's been a few - or many - generations, many of us have no way of knowing for sure unless the family talked about it. My grandparents emigrated from Poland, spoke the language, as did my mother, so that was close enough that I was always aware of it, but a lot don't have that advantage. I know that my paternal grandfather's parents came from Ireland, but my Dad's mother's family was here for over a century before the Revolutionary War. The name is Dutch and my grandmother's aunt researched it, but most people don't have access to such records. I'm guessing that a lot of black Americans have ancestors that arrived here - not necessarily of their own volition - almost as far back as that.

I am interested in genealogy, and I was particularly close to that grandmother, so I have looked into it, but I know that some of my cousins aren't aware of even that much. My brother got me the "23 and Me" kit for my recent birthday, so I'm hoping to find out more. He thinks it's silly, but I'm hoping I can talk him into doing it too. I'm not expecting any big surprises since I know a lot already, but I'd welcome it if I did.

It's pretty popular now - at least from the commercials - to find out where you "came from." I think the coolest one is the woman who's so delighted with her Nigerian hat - no doubt her ancestors came here long before anyone now remembers, but it took her some effort and expense to find out specifics...

[greatauntoftriplets]

8. Oy.

[MineralMan]

11. That sounds sort of familiar to me, somehow.

Odd, huh?

[greatauntoftriplets]

13. It means that you have a better memory than Sessions.

[MineralMan]

15. Well, it appears that the problem has now been solved.

Thanks, MIRT!

[greatauntoftriplets]

16. A job well done!

[MineralMan]

17. Their work never ends...

[MineralMan]

9. Hmm...there are some interesting thoughts going through my head

right now.

[SweetieD]

26. Just want to mention when I was in Greece at a random shop. Twi shopkeepers were crazily

Following me all around sneaking to see what I was looking at. One even almost knocked over a display. There were white people in there including white people who were foreigners who were part if the group I was with. And all the attention was on me. I ended up buying a couple of things. But I imagine if I had put the stuff back and walked out without going to the register, I would have been stopped or accused of shoplifting. This is just based on how intense these people were with me.

In China any shopkeeper could accuse a black person of stealing, and it would be automatically believed no matter what. These judicial and legal system is totally different from ours.

[HipChick]

39. I agree....This happened also on a tour in an Asia..

Black people on the tour were followed, at all times...in stores....

[ProfessorGAC]

3. You Betcha!

And, unlike many college basketball players, two of the three kids come from reasonably monied backgrounds.

Ball's brother is now a millionaire, and his father's promotional efforts have the whole family at around that point.

The other kid is from a two income, stable family. I actually haven't heard about the 3rd kid's background, so it might be all three who aren't poor "wish i had at least some stuff" kids.

It was an idiotic thing to do, especially in a country like China. And in the Ball kid's case, he probably could have asked his brother to buy him a pair of sunglasses.

[SweetieD]

14. I don't believe they stole anything. I'd like to hear their accounts. The Chinese government

Could have concocted the entire event to use as a bargaining chip for negotiating something with Trump.

And in China you are guilty until proven innocent. Any charge means guilt. They don't have to prove anything. You have to prove you didn't do it.

[yallerdawg]

21. I am also appalled at this remarkable 'presumption of guilt.'

I have no idea where it suddenly comes from on a liberal progressive website.

[Solomon]

36. Thank you. I'm tripping on the same phenomenon. Automatic assumption of guilt.

[MineralMan]

38. Here's their account:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/ucla-basketball-players-admit-shoplifting-china-trump/story?id=51164270

And corobboration here:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-ucla-basketball-china-20171115-story.html

[cwydro]

41. They have admitted it.

Jeez.

[malaise]

18. It's one thing to shop lift food because you're hungry

Stealing just to say you own some high priced name brand shit it totally unacceptable.
What makes it worse is that they tried that shit on an overseas trip while representing their university.

Fugg 'em - and the Con.

[moriah]

23. But....are *you* assuming they actually stole them?

I have yet to find a thing saying any of the three players were in possession of stolen property, merely questioned on suspicion.

And I have looked.

Given that there is a LOT of racism not just in the US, and where one non-white ethnic group is the majority like in China, they may still have prejudices. I know there's a lot in NK propaganda reinforcing that marrying anyone with African descent is racial impurity, but so is marrying a white person.

So I'm not ruling out that they were guilty of nothing more than "looking at sunglasses while black", just like the guy shot in TX recently wasn't guilty of more than having a malfunctioning car alarm while black.

[malaise]

30. I had that thought yesterday

What if this were all a set up by the Con himself. Anything is possible with this nasty scumbag.

[Lee-Lee]

48. Umm, they have admitted it and apologized

[moriah]

52. And that wasn't in the news when I posted what I did. Nt

[cwydro]

50. They did it.

Admitted and apologized.

[NCTraveler]

25. I trust the words and actions of the Chinese Govt very little.

Specially when it comes to young black males.

"Don't steal stuff. That's a pretty simple rule. Doh!"

Society tells us much different. It should be a simple rule. Said rule involves people and that gets messy. People from all walks of life steal.

[shraby]

27. They're probably smart enough to know better than to steal something when

in a foreign country.
Question is, was China up to some old tricks of accusing people of doing things they didn't do? Remember, that is a dictatorship and dictatorships are run much differently than democracies.

It could have been done to make trump look good by getting them home.

[MineralMan]

28. Perhaps. I don't know for sure.

[zipplewrath]

31. You OP sounds like you did

Your OP was pretty judgmental. Sounds like you though you knew they were guilty. When you asked "what were they thinking", exactly what did you mean?

[moriah]

29. I assumed you were being sarcastic, MM. Are you actually serious?

I thought you were emulating our Groper In Chief's "There's no way they could have been profiled, I just saved them from 10 years in the Gulag, and you know they deserved it because if those people are looking at expensive sunglasses, even if they didn"t steal them, they're getting too uppity. They should be grateful! Kneel!"

Does someone have an article showing they actually committed a crime?

Have the sunglasses issued a statement?

[Not Ruth]

32. Might be a set up, believe nothing

[MineralMan]

37. And there's this:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/ucla-basketball-players-admit-shoplifting-china-trump/story?id=51164270

Yes, they might have been innocent of shoplifting, but that turns out not to be the case.

[miyazaki]

40. Thanks for update.

[Hekate]

44. Here's my issue with the university, acting in loco parentis, as one does for Education Abroad ...

...Programs (for instance): these are kids. Overgrown kids, maybe, but kids. Ask yourself: have they ever been out of the US before? Have they been out of California? Have they even been out of their neighborhoods much before getting into college on a basketball scholarship?

I could be all wrong -- I have not followed this story, but I thought I heard they were freshmen, which would make them pretty young.

Of course you don't steal things. But in the US you don't get sentenced to hard labor for 10 years for shoplifting, either. Did anyone in the hiercharchy of adults give them a pre-trip orientation to How Things Are Done in China, Which By The Way is a Totalitarian Regime? Anybody? People over there get sentenced to death for white collar crimes on occasion as well, and there's a suspicion that they are then neatly disassembled for the organ market afterward.

Somebody today called them "chowderheads," which I thought was fair enough. But I feel like spreading a little blame around.

One of my old school friends spent a year or two as an English teacher in China. His good fortune was that he is of Chinese descent and was able to blend in with the crowds, mostly. But he was watched all the time. His comings and goings from his apartment were clocked. His students were questioned. Periodically he himself was questioned -- it seemed to disturb the authorities that he was able to disappear in the crowds.

Those young men are damn lucky to be home.

[LisaL]

49. Oh give me a break. They are adults, not kids.

[Hekate]

54. So we should leave them there to rot

[MineralMan]

51. I agree. While such preparations should not be needed

for college students, who are, by age, adults, clearly they are needed. I remember many lectures before high school band trips to other places. Some of us were only 14 years old, and may have needed reminders about behavior.

We hear, from time to time, about college age students, especially on sports teams, doing many things that they should have known not to do. From sexual harassment and hazing to road-trip stupidity like shoplifting from stores. Clearly, those who do those things have not gotten the message, or refused to internalize it.

[Lee-Lee]

53. Its a parenting and upbringing failure

It shouldn’t be necessary to double down on the “hey, don’t shoplift here”. It should have been a lesson they learned well before adulthood that was “don’t steal”, not “don’t steal under these circumstances where it is a worse punishment”.


They were shoplifting at a Louis Vitton store. I just looked up comparable costs for sunglasses here in the states and they all are $600 or more. In NC theft over $1000 is a felony, so if they took higher end glasses or two pairs of any of them it would be prosecutable as a felony here- with pretty serious ramifications.

[Hekate]

55. So we should leave them there to rot

[Lee-Lee]

56. Reverse the roles here

You own a store. A tourist from another country comes and shoplifts thousands of dollars of goods.

They are arrested.

The president of their country puts pressure on our government, Trump intervenes and they are related with no charges or penalties.

Would you feel Justice was served?