General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI am not advocating banning gun ownership. However -
there is NO reason for a private citizen to own an automatic assault rifle with a clip that can shoot 100 rounds in minutes.
Can anyone think of a reason?
apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)deadly little toys, including registration, licensing, background checks, including mental health screenings, and for at least a few years a "mayhem" tax on all new handgun purchases to offset the enormous cost to society of our "enthusiasts" peculiar fetish.
You are spot-on on the assault rifles and the 100 round magazines: those need to be at the top of the list of banned weapons, and one day will be, as the nation continues to turn Blue.
rl6214
(8,142 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)rl6214
(8,142 posts)Good luck with that.
2on2u
(1,843 posts)several hundred armed burglars.
apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)acquiring one. Yep it's a Catch 22.
We prohibit smoking in most public areas nowadays, yet in most states, just about anyone can walk around with a gun or two strapped on.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)Because they can.
Response to Avalux (Original post)
GarroHorus This message was self-deleted by its author.
Logical
(22,457 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)Over & over & over again, apparently - until everyone understands the trivial minutiae of firearms? Semi-automatic weapons kill innocents just as effectively as automatic weapons do. THE TECHNICAL DETAILS ARE MEANINGLESS TO THE DEAD!
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)That pig won't fly... the RW will fight to the bitter end. And the government cannot find and return 12 million illegal immigrants... how the hell are they going to find and confiscate 200 million guns?
It seems more commonsense to me to try and keep guns out of the hands of criminals and crazies. If we push towards that end, possibly the RW will come around once they understand we're not trying to take guns away from responsible owners.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)"Responsible" motorcycle owners & enthusiasts will do everything the can & follow every law which makes their motorcycles safer & less dangerous to themselves, other motorcycle owners & the general public.
"Responsible" aircraft pilots will do everything the can & follow every law which makes their aircraft safer & less dangerous to themselves, other aircraft pilots & the general public.
"Responsible" skydivers will do everything the can & follow every law which makes their skydiving safer & less dangerous to themselves, other skydivers & the general public.
"Responsible" dog owners will do everything the can & follow every law which makes their dogs safer & less dangerous to themselves, other dogs, other dog owners & the general public.
But so-called "Responsible" gun owners will fight every measure - proposed or imagined - and do everything they can to prevent laws which make their guns safer & less dangerous to themselves, other gun owners & the general public. If this wasn't true, the massacre - the mass murder - in Aurora would never have happened.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)Sorry I didn't get the semi in there. Still no reason for it.
DURHAM D
(32,611 posts)What is it with the defense of these unnecessary weapons on DU do you reckon?
Everyone in my family hunts and no one needs or has an assault weapon - perhaps because they don't hunt humans.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)would have to be? You're either spouting ignorance or over-the-top hyperbole. Shooter had no such clip, and Ive never heard of such a thing. It would have to be several feet long.
I understand people are grieving, upset, and are trying to make some sense out of what happened. That is why taking a break before climbing on a soapbox is a good idea... it keeps you from making foolish posts.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)They had the same gun, and the clip, and explained how it works. Sorry I said anything....certainly don't want to offend gun enthusiasts.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)I dont or haven't own a simgle one. I have fired an AR-15, converted to automatic fire. It had a standard 20 round clip. I had heard of drum magazines, but not seen one. IMO, anything larger than a standard clip is unecessary for a semi-automatic, and more likely to jam. A standard clip can be changed in a couple seconds, so I dont think witness accounts of continuous fire are necessarily accurate. In a day or two, Im sure the cops will have a statement on the guys weapons and clips.
BTW, the AR I fired was on a hunting trip decades ago. Unimpressed, I can't imagine a worse gun for hunting.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Do you agree with that statement?
NutmegYankee
(16,201 posts)How fast can you click your mouse over and over again? Each click is one round.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Has 800 rpm.
NutmegYankee
(16,201 posts)Since the trigger force is 3-5 pounds of pull, the muscles will tire quickly. I'm sure he got quite a bit of rounds into the air, but I think what was even worse was the bottle neck the crowd had to run to get out of the theater. He could wound/kill many people without aiming by just firing into the traffic jam of people. Sick sick sick.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Perhaps 2/3 would miss, so only 30 people would have been hit. Im guessing. Since he hit 70 people, perhaps some more than once, I think he was being more methodical... aiming and firing each shot. Even at close range, in a crowded theatre, that might be a shot every 2 seconds. Maybe more. So it might have taken him 3 minutes or more to empty a 100 round magazine.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)So he got a shot off every second or two. Changing a clip takes a couple seconds, so whatever capacity he was using made little difference... changing 3 clips would have taken less than 10 seconds longer than using a 100 round drum magazine.
Now if he was shooting a full automatic, the ROF is so high that large capacity would be of use. But at that point the shooter isnt targeting, hes just throwing lead in the air.
I still think the issue should be keeping ANY firearm from being obtained by criminals and crazies, whether it takes new laws or better enforcement of existing laws. Unfortunately, the NRA's solution is always more guns, not better laws.
Trunk Monkey
(950 posts)was a 30 rounder
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)I imagine the shooters clips were still in a lab being tested. Were the cops displaying a similar clip, or was this an ABC crew that just bought a clip to film? Theres a lot of BS neing thrown around... just trying to seperate it from the facts.
Trunk Monkey
(950 posts)and got what appeared to be a CAR-15 w/ a standard 30 round magazine.
Response to Trunk Monkey (Reply #27)
GarroHorus This message was self-deleted by its author.
Cronkite
(158 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Avalux
(35,015 posts)They could be wrong, but that's the part that really freaked me out.
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #20)
GarroHorus This message was self-deleted by its author.
Cronkite
(158 posts)I don't know shit about the incident. You say you did not know 100 round mags exist and I present you evidence that they do. That is all.
Thanks for trying to argue about a simple informative link attempt though!
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)without sourcing that info, except that ABC showed a 30 round. It wasnt revealed until later, that it was a 100 round drum magazine, stated by the police. Just seeking the facts, m'am.
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #14)
GarroHorus This message was self-deleted by its author.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)I wouldn't call a drum magazine a clip. Poster above had a link to a side by side magazine clip that held 100 rounds. I cant see where either is especially useful on a semi automatic, and may be likely to jam.
In any case, its all conjecture. I havent heard the cops say what the shooter used, so anything anyone else is speculation.
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #40)
GarroHorus This message was self-deleted by its author.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Thats the first I heard the story sourced. I doubt the capacity made a difference, he could have changed clips and killed just as many.
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #50)
GarroHorus This message was self-deleted by its author.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)accessories.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)And it doesn't appear to me that in this case it would have made a bit of difference whether the shooter used a 100 round drum magazine or three 30 round magazines.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)and they have a much higher violent crime rate. And we're at a point where banning guns is impossible... no agency is going to be able to locate and take 200 million guns. So doesn't it make sense to attempt to prevent criminals and crazies from getting guns, where responsible gun owners may help, rather than ban all guns which will have little support?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Will say, but there are 300 million guns and we should just sit on our asses and say the same thing when next 100 million are made. Tax them in meantime to pay for all or part of shootings.
Coddling the gun culture ain't in society's best interest.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Just about any semi auto rifle can be set up for one. They almost always have a key wound spring and most I have seen do not function well with just one winding for the entire magazine. Their overall reliability is marginal at best. Such magazines also unbalance the rifle and make it hard to use.
I have used them. I have one for demonstration in my shooting classes. I would never use one.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)And after seeing a picture, I think your assesment is probably correct...
lapfog_1
(29,218 posts)It's only $139 and available online.
So you might want to check YOUR facts before calling bullshit on someone else.
Trunk Monkey
(950 posts)semi automatic or fully automatic. Mind you this is a weapon that you can look at and tell the difference but the "don't know yet"
what else are they bullshitting about?
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)The immediate response to all these things is invariably "why do we need automatic weapons".
Just as invariably it is not an automatic weapon used.
I don't know if it's deliberate obfuscation or just herd-ignorance.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)Go ahead. There's no reason for having one other than to kill people.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Ok, the weapon is innocent as it is incapable of independent thought or action.
Now, was it an automatic weapon or not?
Avalux
(35,015 posts)Let me try this again....
I stated automatic in my OP, and as others have pointed out, it was a semi-automatic. I admit I got it wrong. However, I'd really like someone to explain why someone would want to own a weapon that is designed to do a lot of damage in a short amount of time. What are the reasons someone would own one? For fun? To feel powerful? To kill people? I'd really like to know.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Avalux
(35,015 posts)I do get that. I don't think I was wrong in stating that the cartridge holds a hundred bullets...that's what was stated on the news.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)I'd give them a while to stop being emotional too before we believe too much of what they have to say.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)perhaps you can help with a link? A clip can be changed in less time than changing a cassette tape - maybe 2 or 3 seconds. He may have changed standard clips a few times without the witnesses noticing, so it seemed like continuous fire. And he probably had 10 rounds or more in each handgun.
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #26)
GarroHorus This message was self-deleted by its author.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)Trunk Monkey
(950 posts)I can't stand 'em ( I'm a mini 14 guy myself) but people use them for hunting, target shooting, and home defense
Avalux
(35,015 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)I think most people own them for target shooting or to show off.
Johnny Rico
(1,438 posts)Completely wrong. They're becoming more and more popular with hunters.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)My family are sportsmen, my Dad has hunted all his life, and doesn't own one of these. In fact, he likes deer hunting to be a challenge, so he uses a muzzleloader.
Johnny Rico
(1,438 posts)Can be switched to a different calibre by just swapping out the upper receiver.
What's not to like?
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)where you can get several shots.
Hunting in thick brush you only get one shot, so something bigger than a .223 is better... and semi automatic is no use.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Personal experience.
Johnny Rico
(1,438 posts)would be another matter entirely, I suspect.
Johnny Rico
(1,438 posts)it can be used to hunt virtually any game animal in North America.
The Mini-14 is a .223 semiautomatic rifle, in practical terms similar to most AR-15s. It has a wooden stock instead of a black plastic one, though, so it doesn't upset gun grabbers.
Seriously.
sarisataka
(18,733 posts)but some states allow AR-15s to be used for deer hunting. They are good on any smaller game. For hunting a person is usually limited to 5 round magazines.
A mini-14 is a ranch rifle. A carbine that shoots the same cartridge as the AR. It was designed to be a handy weapon for ranchers to use against coyotes and other varmints. It acccepts many modifications and often gets a 'military' appearance.
As built:
with mods:
Trunk Monkey
(950 posts)A Mini14 (^see link^) is a semiautomatic, magazine fed , gas operated rifle patterned after the US M14 .
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)semi-auto pretty fast.
This is what we allow on our streets. You can thank the NRA, T-Party, right wingers and a few Dems in right wing districts.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Because . . um . . he did.
DURHAM D
(32,611 posts)Marinedem
(373 posts)I don't believe in arbitrary restriction.
Why do you need 100/90/80/70/60/50/40/30/20/10/9/8/7/6/5/4/3/2/1?
Se how easy that is?
Which is the right number?
I personally have no utility for one. I still would like the option to have one if I should choose to.
I prefer 20 rounders for my precision target rifle.
That's twice the capacity of the magazine in the gun of the VT shooter, and he killed twice as many as this new asshole.
The guns used on Bobby Kennedy and Reagan each held six.
Capacity isn't the issue.
The gun isn't the issue.
Non medicated psychos are the issue. Start there.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)So you have a valid point.
ileus
(15,396 posts)Really other than just for fun there's not much reason for full auto weapons unless you're in a security job.
elleng
(131,053 posts)I AM advocating banning of gun ownership.
Higgs boson
(42 posts)elleng
(131,053 posts)highest murder rates in the world, and clearly prohibitions, if they exist, are not enforced.
Thanks but no thanks.
For a long time, Jamaica has been a transhipment port for Colombian cocaine. A lot of the cocaine gets smuggled out into the islands and sold. Drug smugglers from Haiti trade sophisticated guns for marijuana and cocaine, and the island is therefore awash with guns.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6657203.stm
Higgs boson
(42 posts)Did you or did you not mean it when you wrote "I AM advocating banning of gun ownership."?
If you really did intend to write that, I have to wonder how you can advocate something that's clearly against the vast majority and obviously has no chance of incorporation into policy. If you didn't mean it, I must confess I'm not bright enough to grasp the satire. My SO and I went to Jamaica many times in the 1980s and 90s but it got too crazy and we quit going. The interesting thing is that we always 'packed' a gun and DECLARED it on the customs forms but nobody ever even commented on it. (Reason for that is that we backpacked through the cockpit country and knew it could be very dangerous...even back then, I hate to think of doing that nowadays, sadly.)
elleng
(131,053 posts)Not sure I have done that. I said:
There is NO reason for a private citizen to own an automatic assault rifle with a clip that can shoot 100 rounds in minutes, and I advocate banning gun ownership.
I also recognize the Supreme Court's role in interpreting the Constitution and accept that, even though I sometimes disagree with its decisions, as I do with the Heller decision. I support as many restrictions on gun ownership, possession and use as possible.
Satire not intended. Life is complex.
ethereal1
(11 posts)Advocating abolishing the 1st Amendment?
If I don't like what you say, why should I support your right to say it?
You clearly don't support the 2nd Amendment and suggest we abolish one of the first amendments our founding fathers though necessary to ensure the survival of this great republic.
Unfortunately, horrific events such as this will happen again. If guns are outlawed, these determined savages will turn to more deadly means of delivery (ie... look at the nice little Improvised Explosives experiment he had in his apartment).
We need to correctly identify the root cause of these events, and it is always the man/woman. The tool they use for the delivery will change and evolve over time, but it is illogical, and short-sighted to blame the gun for this man's actions.
Ethereal1
elleng
(131,053 posts)Ethereal? I'll say.
I disagree with the Supreme Court's interpretation of the 2d Amendment in Heller v. DC. http://www.lawnix.com/cases/dc-heller.html
I agreed that 'there is NO reason for a private citizen to own an automatic assault rifle with a clip that can shoot 100 rounds in minutes,' and I can think of no legitimate reason for gun ownership by the populace except for hunting animals. 'A well-regulated militia' was necessary in and around 1776.
One of the reasons I went to law school was to advocate for and preserve the First Amendment. I support your right to say whatever, except to shout 'fire' in a crowded theater.
The 'root cause' of the 'horrific events' won't be identified as long as governments can't/refuse to address the causes, due to funding or refusal honestly to examine social matters, which will continue as long as repugs have control.
cliffordu
(30,994 posts)goddammit, get the facts right.