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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsA woman called CNN and said Franken touched her butt
as they were posing for a picture at the Minnesota State Fair in 2010. http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html
Sanity Claws
(21,851 posts)I want clarification.
octoberlib
(14,971 posts)political party but voted for Trump as did her husband.
LisaL
(44,974 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Last edited Tue Nov 21, 2017, 10:23 AM - Edit history (1)
there's no excuse for grabbing a woman's ass. You can demean them in other ways, obviously, but improper, unwanted sexualized contact is WAYY THE FUCK out of bounds!!
Joking about grabbing women's butts is also clearly over the line. Sorry, but that's just me.
Again, this is irrespective of what Franken may or may not have done in this particular instance, or what you think the punishment, if any, should be if he did do it.
rzemanfl
(29,566 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Why is that so hard to understand... and accept?
Demsrule86
(68,632 posts)right wing woman while her husband was taking a picture that she asked for? You can not possibly believe that. Devil's Advocate?
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)so, tell me where in my comments do you see me talking about Franken and that photo? I SPECIFICALLY said and repeated in my comments, that I was NOT talking about him in this specific instance.
Shall, I repeat them here for you? See my comments above AND below (for example, #'s 37, 55, 78, 182)... I've been consistent on this point.
So, OBVIOUSLY, there is no "Devil's Advocate" argument, as you incorrectly claim I made. You could not be MORE wrong. I was NOT talking about Franken or that photo, period!!
ALL I was saying is that it's NEVER funny to joke about grabbing a woman's ass, like many have done here on this thread. I don't give a flying fuck whether Franken did it or not!!! It's STILL not the least bit funny!!! These people should be ashamed of themselves!!!
So, please read my comments carefully... you will clearly see this. You wouldn't like someone putting words in your mouth... so, why are you doing it?!
Sorry if I sound a little annoyed... that's because I AM!
Demsrule86
(68,632 posts)and don't believe either allegation...but sorry for the misunderstanding.I could not believe it..(even when I misread it). I have been the victim of both sexual harassment and assault....I survived. It is my opinion that women like Tweeden make it difficult to for true victims to be believed. She is going to be outed as a liar and that will hurt women. This is why I feel so strongly...and I am sick of dancing to the Repugs tune. Have a great day...sorry.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)and my wife, who shouldn't have had to put up with all that bullshit... including the jokes about it by people here!
Anyway, I see your points... so sorry to hear what you had to go through.
All the best... and have a great Thanksgiving!
Wellstone ruled
(34,661 posts)Our Oldest Son and I were there that particular day. When it came to the meet and greet and Photo Ops. The usual hand or arm around the waist was the norm. Tons of people standing in line for moment with Al,as well as other DFLers in the Venue. Never once did I observe a in appropriate grab by anyone and we were there for about a hour. Tons of banter and joke telling,but that is the norm for a Minnesota thingee.
Demsrule86
(68,632 posts)rzemanfl
(29,566 posts)femmocrat
(28,394 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,711 posts)At some point we have to ask ourselves are these event helping or not helping take our country back from the Deplorables ?
Demsrule86
(68,632 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)LisaL
(44,974 posts)is that she and Franken were not two bible width apart.
So in her view perhaps it wasn't appropriate for her and Franken to even stand that close to each other.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)LisaL
(44,974 posts)where republican asked her where exactly his hands should be.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)shortly after it happened is interesting.
brush
(53,820 posts)hexola
(4,835 posts)It could be that it's easier than we think to turn up contemporary accounts of interactions like this...
And then bribe them into making this hyped claim.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)hexola
(4,835 posts)Other than it was reported that she talked about on Facebook in 2010.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)LisaL
(44,974 posts)You claim she documented it in 2010, yet you can't see any butt grabbing from the photo.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)I find that interesting.
LisaL
(44,974 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)LisaL
(44,974 posts)I seriously think politicians shouldn't even go around hugging people and posting for photos anymore.
kcr
(15,318 posts)First her sister's comment about that, then her seemingly joking response about what a creep he is. It doesn't look like her reporting a groping.
I don't know if CNN cropped the picture, but if not? Most pictures like that show the whole body length, or at least from the waist up. Curious that it's been cropped right at the shoulders so you can't see where his arm is. I agree with your suggestion and add that I'd have someone I know take the picture and keep a copy of the full length of every one.
trof
(54,256 posts)riverwalker
(8,694 posts)and besides thats easy to alter
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)The CNN reporter MJLee refuses to verify any of these claims. I think she just called the woman and ran the story. Its pretty crappy journalism. So can I say oh yeah, I was t the Fair and Paul Ryan grabbed my ass, and heres a photo of nothing as proof and they run it. Really crappy reporting when a mans career is on the line. Facebook posts can be back dated to look contemporaneous, did any CNN techies verify them? Do they exist at all?
brush
(53,820 posts)B2G
(9,766 posts)"Menz posted the photo with Franken on Facebook at the time, on August 27, 2010. Her sister, Cari Thunker, commented under the photo: "Sorry, but you two aren't Bibles (sic) width apart" -- a reference, Thunker explained to CNN, to how physically close Menz and Franken were in the photo.
Menz responded to her sister on Facebook: "Dude -- Al Franken TOTALLY molested me! Creeper!" (The exchange is visible to Menz's Facebook friends.)"
brush
(53,820 posts)That photo alone says nothing.
B2G
(9,766 posts)the post is there and visible to her FB friends.
brush
(53,820 posts)time stamp would be actual evidence than just a photo and her claim of what she said happened.
Without further proof, that photo proves nothing.
forthemiddle
(1,381 posts)Move the goal posts a little more!
I personally think that almost all of these stories are overblown, and maybe Im that strange woman that isnt necessarily offended by a goose, but the woman reported it in 2010, but it isnt enough for you .
When it comes to Democrats, many here are as bad as the Deplorables that question the veracity of Trumps accusers.
After all, how many of them are Verifiable accusations?
Why are we to believe them, but not the Franken accusers?, after all I can guarantee a lot, if not all, of Trumps accusers voted for Hillary.
brush
(53,820 posts)Yeah, it takes more than a photo that shows noting to believe her accusation.
If she has the photo she should also have a screen grab or her facebook posts as the photo shows nothing.
Come on, we're talking about a Democratic senator's reputation here.
You can't just believe stuff without proof.
Look at Tweeden's so called photo proof, and how her whole story is falling apart.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)most, if not all of Moore's accusers voted for Trump. That's what they've stated - you can choose to believe them or not.
Curiously, both of Franken's accusers did as well.
Though, especially in the context of your post, I can't figure out what the fuck that has to do with any of this.
Bettie
(16,119 posts)In your post, the response to her sister seems to be about them being too close.
But, she's going to get her 15 minutes. I truly doubt he grabbed her butt.
B2G
(9,766 posts)Bettie
(16,119 posts)that's a common type of flippant comment made to friends or relatives.
If you are truly upset and feel violated, you don't say "DUDE!".
But, we're going exactly where we're directed, eating our own and ignoring their behavior.
B2G
(9,766 posts)And Dude is a very common expression in younger people.
Bettie
(16,119 posts)doesn't say "violated" to me, it says smart ass response to sister's comment about them being too close.
If he were regularly grabbing people's butts at the state fair, someone would have said something long ago. He has pictures taken with a whole lot of people. If it was a one-time thing, it was probably an unintentional touch (not a grab).
I'm not willing to go directly into circular firing squad mode.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,335 posts)Especially in response to the "two bibles" comment.
Totally molested? That's not even being alleged now.
Bettie
(16,119 posts)It's the flip response to the sister's comment.
awesomerwb1
(4,268 posts)kcr
(15,318 posts)Being the monolithic group we are and all. We are one sarcastic bunch, let me tell you.
anneboleyn
(5,611 posts)sounds like sarcastic banter with the sister's "two Bibles" comment and "totally molested" (which sounds like sarcasm to me not a serious claim that she was in fact "molested"
This is the problem with these sorts of accusations as some of us were discussing yesterday.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)I think this woman is lying. It is not because I trust Franken. It's just that I find it difficult to believe an ultra conservative who I have known from personal experience are serial liars and who actually believe their lies after a time. She may actually believe this happened. Sincerely believe it. Because that's the culture she's used to.
Demsrule86
(68,632 posts)This is such shit...I shouldn't have even see such crap here...Breitbart would be more appropriate.
B2G
(9,766 posts)anneboleyn
(5,611 posts)questioned about the many accusations against him, even though the women have come out AGAIN. This gives Fox etc the chance to focus on Franken and avoid discussing Trump entirely and engaging in "whataboutism" when Moore is mentioned.
Is she claiming that he's grabbing her butt in that photo (in which she doesn't look remotely surprised or startled about having her butt grabbed by a senator? Seems bizarre to me)?
B2G
(9,766 posts)You assume it's been cropped. How do you know that?
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Demsrule86
(68,632 posts)Repug and a liar...doesn't like Franken...meaningless people lie all the time.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)point is that she did describe the incident in 2010. She says she told her husband, mother, and father at that time.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,335 posts)That's not a serious allegation. It's silly banter on facebook.
Demsrule86
(68,632 posts)And I would love to see her put under oath and perhaps someone should tell her, you go to jail if you lie...no way Franken would do that. You have to use logic and common sense.
WyLoochka
(1,629 posts)I don't believe it either. Her husband and her father were there. She said she was in this state: "I was like, oh my God, what's happening."
Her unstressed, un-perplexed, completely relaxed smile in the photo is making a liar of her now.
A woman can't smile that way while her butt is all of a sudden, out of the blue, being grabbed, causing her to be thrown into a panic - OMG - state.
Her face would have to register that OMG. It would be something like her brow would furrow, her eyes might narrow - or enlarge, her smile would be forced looking, if she could smile at all. Some effect of her alleged "OMG what is happening" perplexity would have to show in the picture. The photo does not remotely reflect this alleged state of mind.
She had no obligation to anyone to register a smile that depicts - there is nothing at all happening here other than a photo of me and a politician being taken by my husband, just like all the others today!
If she had been bothered, she would have automatically pulled back, winced, frowned, done something that shows in the photo she didn't like or understand what was happening. She didn't.
urbanhermit
(751 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)how anyone can defend this behavior - regardless of whether Franken should resign over it (he shouldn't) - is beyond me.
Women should be respected AT ALL TIMES... no exceptions!!
LisaL
(44,974 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)The implication is clear. This is irrespective of what Franken may or may not have done, or what, if anything, should be done about it.
LisaL
(44,974 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Comment #1:
"Was it a cigarette butt?
I want clarification."
Shall I go on?!
Again, SO not funny, but hey, maybe it's just me. Can't believe there are those who find this crap amusing... I, for one, don't!!
Sorry.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Hassin Bin Sober
(26,335 posts)I've told this story before here about a friend of mine, and African-American woman, who was fired For making an off color comment about a birthday cake that she said looked like "a big black dick"
When I worked with her she was always playing grab ass with the gay guys in the office. Myself, having seen how this stuff like that can go sour, stayed far away from it and warned these guys and girls to stop it.
A couple years later she was managing a branch for countrywide. She penalized one of the high producers for lying about a jumbo loan that he claimed to have locked but didn't. The market turned sour and The branch had to eat $30,000 to close the loan. The loan officer felt he shouldn't have to pay even though it was his responsibility to lock and he lied through his teeth (busted with emails) to both the customer and the branch manager.
All of the sudden this off-color comment became such an issue for this male loan officer that he had to transfer offices because of the "hostile work environment"
When she was interviewed by HR and the attorneys there was no denying she made the joke. But it was during a bunch of grab ass in the lunch room while a birthday cake was being cut.
Comments like that and Al Franken's juvenile photo don't age well. Especially when someone wants to make a big deal out of it years later.
She was fired and received no compensation or no unemployment.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)anneboleyn
(5,611 posts)to go after Franken until there is more solid evidence doesn't seem very wise or appropriate to me.
Trump is still president despite the dozen plus claims against him on the record made by very believable women.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)and you obviously haven't read this thread, starting with the VERY FIRST COMMENT!!
Please cut me some slack... nothing I said SHOULD be the LEAST bit controversial on DU... but, I see that it is. (Nothing ceases to amaze me around here anymore.)
I even apologized in advance for what is, apparently, a minority view... but, yes, I'll say it AGAIN: there is nothing amusing about grabbing a woman's rear end!!
LBM20
(1,580 posts)totally molested." that tells me this was over-the-top hyperbolic hypersensitive BS. Look at the photo. Does she look like she was being "totally molested." Her husband was right there. He was taking pictures with tons of people. Did he "molest" them all? This is BS.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)DVRacer
(707 posts)The kid fish upon seeing a boat referred to it as a butt. Nemo proclaims Im gonna touch the butt then he does. Its what started his adventure.
pandr32
(11,601 posts)Try having someone take a close-up picture of two people and have them not be touching.
This is an extreme stretch of sexual misconduct by any standard.
MFM008
(19,818 posts)Still call this a hit job.
If they have a picture the maggot supporters
Pile on.
octoberlib
(14,971 posts)was even standing that close to her. M
LisaL
(44,974 posts)octoberlib
(14,971 posts)Not Ruth
(3,613 posts)Minnesota statutes state that "intentional touching of the clothing covering the immediate area of the buttocks" is not considered criminal sexual conduct.
mythology
(9,527 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)n2doc
(47,953 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)I am sick of this shit. Franken is not the problem. Trump is the problem, Roy Moore is the problem, Harvey Weinstein is the problem. What Franken has (maybe) done is the equivalent of a parking ticket.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)anneboleyn
(5,611 posts)attention to all of the shit he was accused of doing -- even though the women have come out again and put themselves in front of the camera AGAIN, enduring horrible shit from the Trump maniacs. Yet here we are screaming about a cropped photo of Franken and the incident with the other woman who regularly engaged in grabbing men's asses and humping them in the USO skits in which she freely participated for years.
Yes, of course Franken should NOT have "shoved his tongue" down her throat but Franken apologized while also saying he didn't remember it that way (a softer way of saying I don't agree that this happened). I think we are doing ourselves zero favors by going after Franken (not anything like Trump, Moore, or Weinstein). The republicans are using the Franken story to avoid the Moore story.
Watchfoxheadexplodes
(3,496 posts)Do it before being drug into the muck with more that may come.
Not good
blue cat
(2,415 posts)When did he do it, during or after picture? And she had zero facial response? Not believing it.
uponit7771
(90,348 posts)redwitch
(14,946 posts)No fucking way. Hes one of our best.
LBM20
(1,580 posts)mainer
(12,023 posts)And he didnt notice anything.
She later says she may have voted for Franken but she isnt sure.
How can you not remember that little detail?
LisaL
(44,974 posts)octoberlib
(14,971 posts)mountain grammy
(26,644 posts)OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)And people are begging for more!
geardaddy
(24,931 posts)Response to mainer (Reply #11)
octoberlib This message was self-deleted by its author.
LisaL
(44,974 posts)octoberlib
(14,971 posts)hexola
(4,835 posts)"He reached around her and kind of pulled her into him," said her husband Jeremy Menz, who didn't see what happened behind his wife. "He pulled her in and pushed his head against her head. It was over pretty quick."
LisaL
(44,974 posts)He didn't notice any butt touching.
Madam Mossfern
(2,340 posts)when people are in a hurry doing a photo-op.
Sounds more to me like positioning for the picture.
Franken would be more aware of how it would look in the frame.
It does not seem like a sexual grab or touch.
Damn, it's going to become that people are afraid to shake hands.
You do know that this is all a distraction.
MFM008
(19,818 posts)EVERY vote I cast since 1984.
BannonsLiver
(16,435 posts)NOBODY votes for Republicans and Dems equally, especially not these days. I dont believe a word of any of it.
MFM008
(19,818 posts)But I was to young in 1976 to vote and missed 1980.
I started voting in 1984.
mainer
(12,023 posts)And i often throw an arm around theit waist for the shot. Every so often i may unintentionally touch someones butt, but no one ever cries foul because im a woman in her 60s.
Im gonna call this a case of misinterpretation.
LisaL
(44,974 posts)I would say, don't even touch them in any way and be at least several feet apart for any photos.
octoberlib
(14,971 posts)LisaL
(44,974 posts)and no way to prove or disprove most of those allegations.
octoberlib
(14,971 posts)its like the McMartin child abuse hysteria and the satanic cult craze in the 80s.
LisaL
(44,974 posts)And it's getting people into its trap.
Jim Beard
(2,535 posts)GoCubsGo
(32,086 posts)And, if they manage to force Franken out of office, which I hope they don't, it will be more akin to the McCarthy "commie" hunts, because you know they'll try it with others, as well. In fact, I think that is what they are aiming for here.
kcr
(15,318 posts)Though her claim that no one could see her being pulled by the butt from the front is pretty weak. The way she described it, those actions would be noticeable from all angles.
That's what this sounds like.
Demsrule86
(68,632 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)LisaL
(44,974 posts)There is nothing in the photo that shows any butt grabbing.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Demsrule86
(68,632 posts)crap have at it...I for one do not.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)katmondoo
(6,457 posts)Kleveland
(1,257 posts)And I am a guy!
Should I call CNN too?
In fact, he went around the room and touched everyone's butt!
No one complained then, but now is the time to tell all!
Especially since we need a false equivalent to help old Roy out!
It happened at a community picnic, they were serving grilled squirrel!
LisaL
(44,974 posts)A DU classic!
LisaL
(44,974 posts)bitterross
(4,066 posts)Maybe I'm wrong, however, this seems suspiciously well timed to keep the Franken story going as it was dying off the pages and Moore and Trump were getting more time.
femmocrat
(28,394 posts)Maybe she is the one.... I always wonder about these "inside" stories. How do people know this stuff unless they are somehow involved with the result? That part is suspicious to me.
ALSO--- Roy Moore's first accuser was on TV today. So perfect timing to discredit Franken again.
Fullduplexxx
(7,868 posts)If it helps them to lie they will. If it helps them they will welcome pedophiles and molesters . If a lie will help them defend themselves then they'll do it .
democratisphere
(17,235 posts)your hand on another person's hip or butt. I expect a lot of the accusations are unfounded BS by people looking for money or 2 minutes of "fame".
Joe941
(2,848 posts)itsrobert
(14,157 posts)Hit job.
oasis
(49,398 posts)mainer
(12,023 posts)She was so shaken by his groping her and so traumatized by the experience, yet may have voted for him?
This little detail reveals shes trying to hide she is doing this for partisan reasons. She doesnt want us to know shes a RW republican so she says she might have voted for him.
Menz said she believes she has voted for Franken as well, but is not sure.
LisaL
(44,974 posts)blimablam
(121 posts)TexasBushwhacker
(20,209 posts)for someone who is in the middle of being groped.
dalton99a
(81,566 posts)Response to TexasBushwhacker (Reply #53)
crosinski This message was self-deleted by its author.
cornball 24
(1,480 posts)the butt, er bus!
Demsrule86
(68,632 posts)B2G
(9,766 posts)Translation: I'll wait until another woman comes forward who I can find absolutely no fault with, whether real or imagined.
Hope this woman doesn't have anything even remotely questionable in her past, because she's about to get investigated six ways from Sunday, right after being immediately dismissed completely out of hand.
Which is evidently the way such accusations should be handled now.
a parking ticket = pathological liar
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,335 posts)Phentex
(16,334 posts)and not necessarily uneducated.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Which I find sad.
LisaL
(44,974 posts)Lock him up?
gollygee
(22,336 posts)An extreme one. There's a lot of space between "she's lying" and "lock him up." Touching someone's butt outside the clothes is very unlikely to even be illegal.
I don't personally think he should even resign without a credible accusation of something actually illegal. The fact, though, is that this kind of thing - more minor levels of sexual harassment - is very, very common and it's ridiculous to think only Republicans are doing it. I bet a pretty good percentage of men in positions of power have done it. There's something about being in a position of power that gives people a sense of entitlement. But I think it's too large a number of people for legal but creepy stuff like this to keep someone from serving in government. If there's something illegal, particularly if there are kids involved, then absolutely. Touching a butt - this is something I've specifically had done to me on multiple occasions. I'm sure the guys doing it thought it was funny. They probably didn't even think of it as sexual harassment. What I'd like to see here is a cultural shift of what is considered appropriate. I don't want to see the government culled of people who have committed smaller acts of sexual harassment because there are likely too many people involved to make that practical or even ideal.
Jim Beard
(2,535 posts)it is tilt more men to vote republican. Don't be like the Republicans and make a mountain out of a mole hill.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)That include family.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And it's good that people are feeling less afraid to speak up about such behavior now. Hopefully that will make folks think twice before doing it.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Franken may be under attack, if so, facts will prevail. But to call someone a liar because we disagree with them politically is the stuff that republicans do.
treestar
(82,383 posts)We have to disbelieve all or believe all?
Justice
(7,188 posts)So upset, husband in shock, feeling gross, but posts the picture on Facebook?
mindfulNJ
(2,367 posts)...where the #metoo is not going to be worth a damn.
LisaL
(44,974 posts)presumably because a man can be accused.
So we gotten to that point too.
kacekwl
(7,021 posts)If you were so offended slap him,push him off and tell him to fuck off or just move on . I'm sure there are many women who have had they're butt grabbed and many men who's balls still hurt after being kicked by said women. Don't care.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)... say, in one way or another, Fuck Off!
Response to kacekwl (Reply #83)
LovingA2andMI This message was self-deleted by its author.
nadine_mn
(3,702 posts)I joke I am taller sitting down than standing up. I am also large chested - it happens to me a lot where people accidentally touch some part of me. More often than not, my butt accidentally touches someone else.
I'm not trying to make light of sexual assault - but there is such a difference in degrees. In a rush to pose for a pic at the state fair (which is crowded, busy, hectic) I can see how this can happen - she feels the hand went too low maybe? Touching a butt vs grabbing it are different things.
As someone who has been a victim of sexual assault all of this stuff is making me cry - every touch does not warrant media attention. It is creating a backlash and it breaks my heart.
Response to nadine_mn (Reply #175)
LovingA2andMI This message was self-deleted by its author.
BannonsLiver
(16,435 posts)We now have supposedly reputable news operations running with a story that has zero supporting evidence beyond a picture and the word of a far right Trumpkin.
Me too has officially jumped the shark.
mythology
(9,527 posts)We also have a bunch of DUers saying women who report sexual harassment shouldn't be believed unless there are multiple witnesses and video evidence. Let's apply that standard to rape. Generally speaking there are not witnesses and such all rape victims should be disbelieved if you don't like them.
DU is reaching a sad low with this.
BannonsLiver
(16,435 posts)But when it comes to journalism ethics and practices CNN missed the mark.
nadine_mn
(3,702 posts)For pics at the MN State Fair
He's not stupid... good lord he would know that behavior would get called out pretty fast, esp when running for re election
His call for his own ethics investigation, his apology and sincerity sucked the wind out of the GOP playbook who expected him to respond like they do...insult and disparage the victim. They expected the Tweeden allegation to drag on.
And before anyone calls me a hypocrite...when I first heard about George H W Bush grabbing ass when posing for photos, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Until more women described the same thing, complete with the same Copafeel joke...then that showed a pattern of behavior.
I'm not there with Franken, and I still support him.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)why he would do that as a public figure at a state fair in front of her husband .
She's not saying he moved in and started hugging with his hands all over for the picture. She said he grabbed her butt which is very direct and undebatable not like a creepy hug which could be shrugged off as misunderstood. He grabbed her butt she said. Would he be that stupid? Always sounds like a smart guy.
nadine_mn
(3,702 posts)I can kinda see maybe the hand being too low for her comfort? It just sounds so off... I just can't see him doing a full on ass grab at the fair - its always crowded, tons of people lots of cameras all the time, news crews reporting live all day - like of all places to be a creep that just doesn't sound right
octoberlib
(14,971 posts)No Democratic women have come forward yet with any allegations and , in fact, 8 previous and current women staffers say he's never treated them with anything but respect.
I also find it odd that these women who say they were so traumatized by Franken's groping went on to vote a pussygrabber and serial sex offender into office.
Vinca
(50,300 posts)While we can't dismiss women and what they claim, we can't automatically assign guilt to the offender without proof.
ClarendonDem
(720 posts)There's no "proof" Moore assaulted anyone, just the statements from multiple women that he did. So now we have two women accusing Franken of inappropriate conduct, but there's no proof here either. Personally think that if we are going to take the women who allege Moore assaulted them at their word then it is hypocritical to disbelieve Franken's accusers and demand "proof."
With respect to Trump, he essentially admitted his guilt on tape but his supporters didn't seem to care, which is appalling and a different issue altogether.
RhodeIslandOne
(5,042 posts)Places of business just don't do that to prominent people for shits and giggles.
kcr
(15,318 posts)Pretty soon we're going to have bingo cards and drinking games because these discussions are getting ridiculous.
ClarendonDem
(720 posts)But I imagine we could find posts on DU saying Moore should resign immediately after the WaPo story, and long before the story about Moore being banned from the mall.
kcr
(15,318 posts)It's absolutely 100% right to call for Moore's resignation.
ClarendonDem
(720 posts)But at what point was it appropriate to call for Moore's resignation?
kcr
(15,318 posts)Because I sure don't recall it that way.
But there were many on the left who immediately called for Moore to drop out following the WaPo story, including here on DU. My question is how many women have to accuse someone of assault before we believe it and don't ask for "proof" (which is unavailable in the vast majority of cases)? Apparently 2 women aren't enough to convince some folks on DU, so are 4 (the number in the original WaPo story) enough?
kcr
(15,318 posts)I think it's entirely reasonable to read that Washinton Post story about Moore and think resignation is called for, but not think the same think about Franken. Because the two stories are not even remotely the same! You seem to think that no one had any idea about Moore at all until that Washinton post story. Do you really think that? He was banned from a mall in the 70s, for gawd's sake. There are all kinds of legal rulings on the record that point to what a sleazebag he is. Including ruling that sexual abuse against a child caused no material harm. All things of public record. It simply isn't the same! Stop trying to make them the same.
Vinca
(50,300 posts)The latest is a cop who said it was common knowledge Moore liked young girls. Thus the mall banning.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Get you to say Moore cannot be faulted either. It's their set up for what-about-Franken? I guess Bill Clinton is an old story and also consensual.
Too bad no one is interested in the issues. Opposing Donald due to his pussy grabbing didn't work. Opposing Moore on this stuff won't work. Why don't we try and issue, like his ignoring the Constitution to put up the Ten Commandments in the courthouse and his inane claims the Founders had never heard of any non-Christian religion?
LisaL
(44,974 posts)So we have to assume anybody who is accused is actually guilty. What could go wrong?
But how do you decide who to believe and disbelieve? Is it simply a partisan issue, where we believe the women who accuse Republicans and disbelieve those who accuse Democrats?
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)Vinca
(50,300 posts)I'll have my husband back me up for "authenticity."
eppur_se_muova
(36,281 posts)saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)that man stuffed in an overloaded elevator or the one behind me in the crush of a fair? Not to make light of the offense, I am more offended by men who want to "grab some p...y". Those, I have met and verbally abused them without apology.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)Or, we're going to make like Republicans and not take them seriously.
And that's just what they want.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)LAS14
(13,783 posts)... different kinds of behavior, we're just contributing to the crisis of the dumbing down of the American voter.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Merely because we like the person being accused, then we are also contributing to a serious problem.
LisaL
(44,974 posts)customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)is already dumbed down, that's what I took from the last election.
We can come up with all kinds of reasons as to why this person is really wrong, while this other person is technically "OK", but in the end, the message the Repukes want to send is, "They all do it, and each side defends themselves." We don't win by being seen as no better than they are because of semantics or technicalities.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)... the context.
kcr
(15,318 posts)Not true. They are absolutely falling all over themselves thinking that our side is tying itself up into knots because we have to take these accusations seriously! Hahahahaha! They think of us as caricatures, not real human beings. We believe all women, no matter what!(pfft! Suckers) So, they manufacture these stories then sit back and laugh. Meanwhile they elect their Moores and Trumps and do not give a shit.
LisaL
(44,974 posts)They are going to vote for their accused candidates anyway. So only democrats will end up paying the price, for something they did or didn't do (and who can tell).
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)we need to lower ourselves to their level.
And what I meant by taking these accusations seriously is to not respond with jokes, gibes, or attacks on perceived political stances of the women claiming harassment. It doesn't necessarily mean automatically excommunicating the accused, but it does involve not belittling the accusers.
LisaL
(44,974 posts)Trump as president?
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)even with Johnson and Stein bleeding off millions more. The only reason that Trump is president was because of the distribution of the votes. Had the campaign done a little more in the Midwest and a little less in California, the results could well have been different.
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)They are going to keep these distractions going.
They want to keep us away from the tax debate.
https://egbertowillies.com/2017/11/20/gop-tax-cut-scam-terrify-american/
crosinski
(412 posts)I was of the opinion that Franken was being set up when the first woman came forward, because she was a right wing radio host and the incident happened before he was a Senator. And because I know the right's long history of setting us up exactly like this so that we attack and distract each other. This second woman's story doesn't prove that Franken is a serial sexual abuser, but it does make me suspect that he may be a feel copping creep. I'm going to stay at this point and not come down heavily on one side or the other. I'll float in the middle until I clearly decide which way to land.
Demsrule86
(68,632 posts)right wing liar. She so upset about standing to close to Franken...but votes for Trump...can't go there. He is not a creep and needs to stay in the senate...by God...a kiss for a skit when he was an actor...and not a bible's with apart...give me a break...oh and welcome to DU.
uponit7771
(90,348 posts)crosinski
(412 posts)And I see I'm starting to get some blow-back. You can check my last few posts if you want, and you'll see I'm entirely on Franken's side. I thought the first accuser was a total set-up. I'm 63 guys, and I had a cute butt back in the day. It's been pinched, slapped, cupped and otherwise manhandled without my consent, all in public, and once while walking down the street arm in arm with my husband! I guess you could say I'm butt-aware or butt-sensitive.
So, yeah, Franken may be a jerk. I'm not saying he is, but he may be. And I'm starting to think he may be because another woman has stepped forward and she does seem to have talked about it to her sister on Facebook when it happened. I'm not if sure she did or not, and I'm waiting to see what the truth of that turns out to be. However, being a woman, my bells and whistles are triggered.
Now listen here you righteous liberals who are aiming to paint me as a troll, you don't own a book on how to be a good Democrat, and this woman will be one however she wants to be one. You got that straight?
That is all.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)A person should never touch another person without the second person's permission and the touch should only be what is approved. Maybe the new accuser is a rightwing whackjob, but she should not be called a liar until facts come out showing that she is. But if Franken has a pattern of touching women without their permission, he needs to resign and let the Democratic, very liberal Governor of his state replace him.
crosinski
(412 posts)So, here's where I am with this now. I believe a person is innocent until proven guilty, 'cause that's the way I roll. However Franken may be in danger of having enough circumstantial evidence thrown his way to convince me that he is guilty of touching women inappropriately. There sure as hell is a lot of room in there for right-wing shenanigans, and it pisses me off knowing they're sitting back and laughing their asses off at us searching our souls and giving each other grief over this.
However, even with all my womanly don't-touch-my-butt bells and whistles triggered, I'm still waiting for more of a pattern to emerge before I'm convinced.
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)riverwalker
(8,694 posts)So you pose for a photo with a man, who you say grabs your butt and squeezes and you think Oh my God whats happening (her words) yet your face shows NOTHING but a smile? No wincing, no frowning, no surprise. Just a relaxed smile.
A womans instinct would have her swat his hand away, which she didnt, and her husband doesnt notice anything?
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)To not show his hands.
B2G
(9,766 posts)Did you have a problem with those?
Kingofalldems
(38,468 posts)B2G
(9,766 posts)It's possible I didn't see that.
uponit7771
(90,348 posts)B2G
(9,766 posts)This similarities here are striking.
Yet no one questioned her account.
http://time.com/5019182/george-hw-bush-groping-allegation/
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Was she supposed to scream "He touched my ass!!!? She may have well said something to her husband after walking away.
uponit7771
(90,348 posts)riverwalker
(8,694 posts)I mean look at the photo taken the very moment he's supposed to be squeezing her butt. No reaction at all.
uponit7771
(90,348 posts)... place.
I'm tall so I get that from family members who don't mean anything by it.
Word is the social media post have been found but that doesn't mean anything if it was a PM message to a friend
blimablam
(121 posts)Jim Beard
(2,535 posts)Have a flat tough shit. I am not gaining anything and could lose a lot. We went through this 30 years ago that is if you are old enough to remember.
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)I do not hold the door for women.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)I held a door open for a woman this weekend. She was walking up as I was leaving. She walked through, said thank you and I walked away without looking at any part of the body. I certainly did not touch her and would have been shocked if I touched her.
Jim Beard
(2,535 posts)feminism and it was bad. and BTW, don't you ever call my post BS like you fucking know me. I have been through when it gets like it is now. I know your mom was proud of you for holding the door open for her.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Polly Hennessey
(6,801 posts)Set feminism back many years. Here we go again. Believe one is guilty until proven innocent because women never lie bless them all. Am appalled by the feeding frenzy. Just a note to all you guys, most of you are adorable and could not live without you. Please always open doors for me and when appropriate give me a big hug 🤗. Nothing better than a hug from a man.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,113 posts)motivations and attack our Democratic leaders, but they are here.
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)octoberlib
(14,971 posts)Link to tweet
The second Franken allegation is like some of the photo-op allegations about GHW Bush. Based on the story thus far I am skeptical. Her alleged social media post presumably has not yet been found.
kcr
(15,318 posts)Thank you. That explains it. But oh, look at the silly liberals twisting themselves into knots!
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)There is really no black and white or politics associated with such a concept.
LisaL
(44,974 posts)Are we now functioning like a giant court where we decided if the accused is guilty without any evidence provided? What do we do with the guilty (which I presume all the accused are, if we are to believe every accuser)?
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Roy Moore's accusers are having a hard time because the pinheads that support him simply will not listen. We should be above that BS.
LisaL
(44,974 posts)riverwalker
(8,694 posts)Really?
A woman on USO tour with a goofy photo and a story. A woman with a photo of nothing and a story. That's it? Oh, and both just happen to be Republicans. Roger Stone is laughing at us clutching our pearls over this hogwash.
Response to octoberlib (Original post)
Freelancer This message was self-deleted by its author.
Eko
(7,336 posts)Watching people twist themselves into moral pretzels trying to figure out how to believe some accusations while disbelieving other accusations. The solution of course is to know what the word accusation means in the first place and not to proceed from there until they are no longer accusations.
LisaL
(44,974 posts)Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(108,136 posts)geardaddy
(24,931 posts)doc03
(35,362 posts)Generic Brad
(14,275 posts)And he never once touched their butts, breasts or anything else he should not have. I can't believe I even feel I have to state this.
mucifer
(23,559 posts)if they had a story to tell.
R B Garr
(16,972 posts)as well as Al Franken. Who would grab ass in a photo right in front of the husband nice smear on hubby, too, almost a little passive-aggressive towards him.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)Just happens to be accused by two conservatives. What are the odds..