If Trump pardons Kushner, then what??

[Stuart G]

MUELLER OPENS PROBE OF KUSHNER:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10141922571

Let's say Trump pardons a whole crowd of "close associates and relatives"...then what?
Just asking, cause I haven't got a clue..??

[Me.]

1. The NYAG Schneiderman Steps In

[Stuart G]

3. Now, that would make things very interesting indeed.

If Schneiderman indicts Kushner..then what happens?

[H2O Man]

7. Jared goes to jail.

[Me.]

17. ...

[H2O Man]

42. It's getting interesting.

People should keep in mind that Flynn has about as much information on Jared as he does on Trump.

[Me.]

49. So Delicious

Who goes down first Jared or Don. Jr.?

Loved this headline

HOW DID PUTIN GET ENGAGED WITH TRUMP? HE WENT TO JARED

[catbyte]

8. Then young Jared is up shit creek without a paddle unless he can somehow convince

Governor Cuomo to pardon him, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[former9thward]

45. The NYAG can't indict on federal crimes.

So he can't indict on whatever crime Mueller might have charged -- despite "the he will go to jail" you are getting from other posters. The NYAG can only indict on state crimes. None have been alleged so far in this probe. If there were state crimes to be charged then the NYAG would already be looking at them. He would not wait for the federal government. There is no investigation because it would have been announced. They don't do these things in secret despite what some think.

[marylandblue]

47. It's been announced that Mueller and NYAG are cooperating with each other

Not clear what that means, but at a minimum I would think it includes information. If NYAG is conducting its own investigation into state crimes, there would not necessarily be any news reports about it.

[former9thward]

48. Of yes there would be news.

And there would be the same leaks coming out that continue to come out of the Mueller investigation. There are no secrets when it comes to high profile cases.

[marylandblue]

51. Depends on what the investigation consists of

Most of the leaks so far seem to come from the White House or the targets. NYAG may not have spoken to any of them, just obtained information from Mueller or other sources without calling in witnesses to testify.

[Mrs. Overall]

18. Schneiderman may already be involved if some of the crimes occurred in NY.

Mueller is very thorough.

[shanny]

25. Given NY is where the whole stinking lot of them have lived, and worked,

and is the financial center of the US and prob. the world, I think it is a safe bet Schneiderman will have jurisdiction angle covered.

[Mrs. Overall]

26. Yep, so no presidential pardon.

[shanny]

27. Sad!

[former9thward]

46. You need a lot more than "jurisdiction".

You need subject matter also. So far there is no evidence the NYAG has that. If he did he would be investigating.

[shanny]

52. smh

NYAG has been sharing the status of any investigations, or lack of them, with you?...that's why you know what he's up to, right? as for subject matter, there's a boatload, and has been for years if not decades. one wonders just how cheeto and co. have skated all this time. stupidest move evah in a lifetime of stupidity was running for office, and having the misfortune to win.

[former9thward]

56. "for decades"

So I guess multiple NYAGs have been sharing their information with you?.... Or is there is a conspiracy among all these AGs to not look into Trump, etc "for decades"...even though there was a "boatload" of evidence...

If there was an investigation going on we would know about it. #thisisnotTV #thisistherealworld

[shanny]

60. why yes, "decades"

apparently if you are rich and "connected" you can get away with all sorts of crap. this is news?

http://www.citypaper.com/blogs/the-news-hole/bcpnews-five-times-law-enforcers-could-have-arrested-donald-trump-but-didn-t-20170306-story.html

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/mar/02/ted-cruz/yes-donald-trump-has-been-linked-mob/

https://www.globalwitness.org/en-gb/campaigns/corruption-and-money-laundering/narco-a-lago-panama/#chapter-0/section-1

https://medium.com/mosaic2/mafia-kgb-putin-and-trump-208a7c8e1a56

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/21/deutsche-bank-that-lent-300m-to-trump-linked-to-russian-money-laundering-scam


as for why cheeto has skated, or not even been investigated, why don't you direct your questions to the NYAG, or the USA for the southern district of NY?

but yeah, i'm sure if there is an investigation going on, we would be the first people the AG told

[LiberalFighter]

61. They would likely do what they need to box Trump and his associates in.

Maybe even misdirect them so they think they have an escape but results in consequences worse than they figured. Hopefully.

[marble falls]

2. Good question, why hasn't he already done it ....

it'll be the end for him and the GOP either way.

[Stuart G]

12. Good Point...yes..How do the leading pukes defend Kushner then?

Thank you....end of GOP....a welcome end..I might add.

[marble falls]

20. They have no choice, once the first domino falls its all a matter of time. They need to delay....

it if only to just delay it. They never planned for this eventuality because their impression is that any President is an imperial President. They have no idea how the system works, only that they want to change it for their vampire capitalistic needs.

They're trying to bring about a Russian style Oligarchy on the US system and its no fit at all.

[Me.]

19. As I Understand It, The Fed Investigation Takes Precedence

[marble falls]

21. But the Feds can move it to the state to keep Trump from pardoning someone.

[Me.]

32. Can But Don't Unless If They Think They Can't Make The Case

But has been said on this thread, Mueller & Schneiderman are consulting. Here in NY, unlike Cy Vance DA Manhattan, Schneiderman is fierce and lets nothing stop him whereas Vance gave the trumps a pass.

[marble falls]

34. Why would the Feds set someone up for a Trump pardon??? They seem to be moving Flynn...

towards NY for that reason. Trump doesn't want to save Flynn so much as he wants to give him no reason to testify in court.

[Me.]

40. Sorry, But Don't See How That Is Setting Up Anyone For A Pardon

It would be a last case scenario and as you can see down thread, trump may not be able to pardon anyone if he is a co-conspirator. Also, by letting it be known that the two are consulting it says to those in the crosshairs that nothing is going to save them so best they make a deal with Mueller and give up trump.

[Lindsay]

4. As I understand it,

Mueller has been sharing information with NY Attorney General Eric Schneiderman. Both Trump and Kushner have conducted much of their business in NY, and are being looked at under state as well as federal laws. And Trump can only pardon for federal offenses.

Unrelated to Kushner, but a bit of good news is that Schneiderman is investigating the Trump Foundation. Trump wants to dissolve it, but can't while it's under investigation. So I'm a bit hopeful of what's going on in NY out of the public eye.

[Chasstev365]

5. Democrats need to frame the entire message as "Republicans don't give a DAM about the law;

Only Power!" By inaction, McConnell and Ryan are as guilty as Trump himself!

THAT is how you frame a message and win over PUBLIC OPINION!

[CanonRay]

6. My guess is Mueller's already indicted Trump

and has a sealed indictment in the bag. That makes Trump a co-conspirator, and as such he can't pardon his fellow conspirators. I pray I'm right.

[exboyfil]

9. At least four Supreme Justices will say that he can

Kennedy? Well we will see.

[Brother Buzz]

10. Then Kushner would have to sing like a bird

because that 'taking the fifth' thingy just went out the window.

[lastlib]

38. There might be an issue....

...as to whether his Federal testimony could be used against him in a State case...if so, he may not be singing yet.....

[Brother Buzz]

43. I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on television, but.....

I guessing Kushner could invoke the fifth at the state level, yet I think the federal testimony could still be submitted. Oh, and if there IS a pardon, it understand it won't happen before Kushner leaves the White House, and the earliest that would happen is January.

If he stays until January then he will get capital gains exemption for any assets that he had to sell to meet ethics requirements. It's all about the dough, baby!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/trump-cabinet-could-avoid-millions-in-taxes-thanks-to-this-little-known-law/2016/12/02/509d009a-b7f5-11e6-959c-172c82123976_story.html?utm_term=.8cc07d5113db

[Lotusflower70]

11. He has to answer to state charges

NY AG Schneiderman is hot on his trail. The Maryland AG Frosh is after him too.

[meow2u3]

13. Kushner would be compelled to testify against Donnie Moscow in court

AFAIK, a pardon is tantamount to an admission of guilt. He'd have to testify because Douchner would no longer be in legal jeopardy.

In other words, he'd have to sing like a canary or face perjury charges.

[Stuart G]

16. ............."Donnie Moscow"..........haven't seen that before..thank you for the term...no text

[Girard442]

14. My fantasy is that a whole bunch of Republicans switch parties...

...elect Nancy Pelosi as Speaker of the House and then impeach and convict Trump and Pence, all in one afternoon, putting Pelosi in the Oval Office.

I did say fantasy.

Joking aside, if no significant group of Republicans does something at that point, then they're all Orange Nazis.

[tblue37]

15. State charges. Mueller and Schneiderman are sharing information. nt

[Gothmog]

22. Then Kushner has to testify about Russia because no 5th Amendment protections

[OregonBlue]

23. If Kushner is collaborating with Russia, can the president pardon someone for Treason?

[onenote]

30. The president's pardon power does not apply to charges of treason

But don't hold your breath waiting for anyone to be charged with treason.

[EL34x4]

41. We're not at war with Russia. Nobody is going to get charge with treason. (n/t)

[ProudMNDemocrat]

24. A Kushner pardon only makes matters WORSE for Trump....

For it keeps the Russia probe on him. What he knew, when he knew it, what did he do about it, and so forth. The noose continues to tighten because a pardon means admission of guilt and the loss of 5th Amendment rights at the State and Civil levels for crimes connected to the Federal pardon.

[Kirk Lover]

28. Trashbag can't pardon if he is named as a co-conspirator...which we all know he is.

I believe that's what I heard about that...also the state charges. There is one thing for certain...Mueller has every ANGLE covered. We don't have to worry, he has the best legal minds in the country working on this traitor.

[onenote]

29. Where in the constitution is that limitation on the pardon power found?

The only limitation is that the president's power to grant pardons for federal offenses does not apply to charges of treason.

[Kirk Lover]

31. I thought I heard that on one of the shows. n/t

[L. Coyote]

35. Pardoning anyone who might have been a co-conspirator in misconduct involving Trump is impeachable.

Peter Shane, law professor, Ohio State University

Russiagate pardons would pose some strategic risks for Trump. No one pardoned could constitutionally withhold their testimony in either a criminal investigation or from Congress. And, unlike the pardon of Arpaio, which is a despicable blow to the rule of law, pardoning anyone who might have been a co-conspirator in misconduct involving Trump himself would much more plausibly be impeachable.

[onenote]

37. True. As a practical matter, pardoning a co-conspirator is problematic.

But its not extra-constitutional.

The same could be said about pardoning witnesses who weren't co-conspirators.

[L. Coyote]

33. Trump can't pardon his way out of the RussiaGate

10 legal experts on why Trump can't pardon his way out of the Russia ...
https://www.vox.com/2017/8/29/16211784/trump-pardon-mueller-constitution-russia

https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+pardon+co-conspirator

[bluestarone]

44. just curious here

will the US supreme court (the justices we have now) become involved? and if so would all 10 legal experts be wrong in there (Supreme courts) eyes?

[marylandblue]

50. I am certain that this will end up at the Supreme Court

There is a lot of legal punditry from lawyers and non-lawyers alike, but the truth is, there is virtually no legal precedent in this area, so NO ONE KNOWS, not even the justices who will eventually rule on what comes before them.

My own feeling is that the legal question will come down to this - did the framers of the constutution unintentionally leave the President a way to put himself above the law? Put another way, can he really shoot someone on fifth avenue and there be no way to punish him until he chooses to leave office? And it really would be a choice, because if true, there would be no way to stop him from open election fraud or simply declaring himself President for life. Extreme? Perhaps, but that's really what it means to be above the law. And believe me, Elena Kagan will be asking some version of this question, so everyone will know what is at stake here.

[L. Coyote]

53. just curious here

What is your Native language and where did you learn English grammar?

[bluestarone]

54. your problem

is??

[L. Coyote]

55. Curiousity, I guess.

I swear I don't work for the grammar police ....

[bluestarone]

57. so you

don't have a comment other than that? Don't understand your attitude

[L. Coyote]

62. so you

didn't answer the question.

[L. Coyote]

36. Trump and Presidential Pardons: What You Need to Know

Trump and Presidential Pardons: What You Need to Know

Why Donald Trump Jr. was comfortable seemingly admitting to a federal crime on Twitter
By David S. Cohen -- July 11, 2017

After The New York Times told Donald Trump Jr. Tuesday morning that it was going to publish emails indicating he was excited by the possibility of Russian operatives having dirt on Hillary Clinton, Trump Jr. preempted the paper by tweeting out the emails himself. Those emails are damning, to say the least. They almost certainly indicate that Trump Jr. was aware he was obtaining valuable information from a foreign source, something that is a clear violation of federal laws regarding campaign contributions from foreigners. As Jens David Ohlin, a Cornell law professor, told Vox, "It's a shocking admission of a criminal conspiracy."

A bombshell 'New York Times' report shows Trump campaign figures were willing to accept assistance from the Russians

So then why would Trump Jr. post the emails on Twitter, with the whole world watching? I'm not here to speculate about any possible long-game he and the president's crew are playing. Rather, what I can say is that there is a pretty clear reason why he may have felt comfortable, if Professor Ohlin is correct, admitting to a criminal conspiracy on Twitter: His dad holds the pardon power.

The president's pardon power is extreme – it applies to any federal crimes, is entirely within the president's discretion and is completely unreviewable (with one important exception that I'll get to in a bit).

The Constitution is quite clear about this. ..................

[customerserviceguy]

39. While Trump's first thought

would be to pardon Kushner, it might be possible that he could be convinced that Kushner was the one who exposed dear daughter Ivanka to the possibility of being effectively a single mother.

Do remember that Chris Christie will have a lot of time on his hands in just a few weeks, and that he may still have Trump's ear every once in awhile. Kushner screwed Christie, and I can't believe that Christie has forgotten that this soon. All he's got to do is use his prosecutorial talent to convince Trump that Kushner is from a family of criminals, and that Ivanka was naive to trust him, and by extension, thus get the family to trust him.

It would not be tough for Christie to do the same thing with Manafort, Flynn, and anybody else who turns up under indictment. At the same time, it could be quietly conveyed to those going to the slammer to keep quiet, and wait for a full pardon on Trump's last day in office, which they may be persuaded could be as soon as the two year mark of Trump's presidency passes. That would let Pence serve out the rest of Trump's term, and still allow him to run twice for election under the terms of the 22nd Amendment.

That "promise" coupled with a Club Fed style of incarceration could allow Trump to get away with this, but he'd need someone with no scruples to pull it off, and Christie would be his man.

[Xolodno]

58. I'll say something unpopular. Jared won't serve a day in jail. Get over it.

Yes, he'll get a federal pardon. But if he gets indicted by a State....Jared runs to Israel and Israel WILL NOT extradite him, citing the federal pardon. They have a treaty on national extraditions, not individual states or provinces. Jared probably has already secured this.

And add to that, Dump's got known holdings and unknown internationally. They have given up on the US market, need proof? Dump's got a tower in Lost Wages....that's not exactly on the strip. They had plans to build a second one directly on the old Frontier property...but haven't done jack. Meanwhile, Wynn not only built one, but a second directly across..and city center essentially makes a mockery of Trump.

And then you have Kushner's holdings...they lost their ass and are just stringing along the banks. Wouldn't be surprised it comes out through shell companies they skimmed off the top and deposited money untraceable in foreign banks.

[rock]

59. Now I've argued before here on DU

That one cannot pardon oneself based on the rule of Law: one may not stand in judgement for oneself. So Trump cannot pardon himself. The question is can he pardon family? How close or far does a person have to be to cross that line? Doing so is unseemly of course, in fact, it would be the most unseemly action we know of him doing. (Yes, even greater than p*s*y grabbing.) I can certainly predict a great deal of flak against Trump if he does so and against the Republican Congress for not impeaching him!