Is it just me or does this sound transphobic

[xmas74]

http://elkesaunders.com/blog/isthisinstagrampostoffensive?format=amp

It what social justice warriors call "non-inclusive" language and a form of hate speech
To support women, to serve women and to hear that mighty woman's "roar" is not okay. Suddenly the being a feminist is not left/liberal enough. In fact, the feminists are the new enemies. The LGBTQ has a name for those of us who are into empowering women. It's a slur. In case you didn't know...you are now a "TERF", which stands for TRANS EXCLUSIVE RADICAL FEMINIST. When we tout the power of "woman", we are excluding men who give birth. And asexuals that give birth....all the transgenders, bigenders and all others who don't identify with women but still grow a baby in a uterus and push it out of a vagina.

[SharonClark]

1. No.

[stevenleser]

3. How do you figure Terfs are not transphobic bigots?

[kcr]

18. Talking about birth is bigotry now?

Wow.

[xmas74]

5. Seems like it to me.

Then again, my feminism is inclusive. I've grown to accept others over the years and now have trans friends who've taught me so much about gender.

[kcr]

21. Edit due to confusion

I thought it was someone making the accusation of TERF using SJW.

[stevenleser]

2. Terfs are bigots, its that simple. Yes they are transphobic but thats just the beginning nt

[xmas74]

6. I have someone on Facebook posting this

Article and arguing with me. She made a mother of a teenage trans daughter almost cry over a few comments.

[stevenleser]

7. Not surprised. Their belief system is evil and disjointed.

See the rationalwiki article I linked below. Much to much for one to type out on my iPhone.

[xmas74]

9. It's evil and disgusting.

I met her at a woman's march. I'm embarrassed and angry she's on my friends list now.

[stevenleser]

4. More on Terfs from rationalwiki

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trans-exclusionary_radical_feminism

Trans-exclusionary radical feminism (TERF; also Trans women exclusionary feminism or TWEF[note 1]) is a subgroup of radical feminism characterized by transphobia, especially transmisogyny,[note 2] and hostility to the third wave of feminism. They believe that the only real women™ are those born with a vagina and XX chromosomes.[note 3] They wish to completely enforce the classic gender binary, supporting gender essentialism.

The term "TERF" is not used by those in the group, who consider it a damnable slur and a term of abuse, and think of themselves as perfectly reasonable radical feminists[2] (and, indeed, the only thing that should be called "feminism&quot . They tend instead to terms like "gender critical", which is for the same general public relations reason that white nationalists insistently present themselves as mere "race realists" and tankies try to rebrand Stalin apologetics as "anti-revisionism."
Even sub-branches of feminist thought known to house individual TERFs, including second wave feminists and political lesbians, have spoken out against this exact transphobia and transmisogyny within their own ranks, further demonstrating the distance between TERFs and mainstream feminism.[3][4]

TERFs (and SWERFs) are a tiny subset of feminism,[note 4] but an unduly influential one: legislators seeking feminist input will often get an academic TERF, who will then get transphobia into law.[5] Their doxxing,[6] trolling,[7] picketing,[8] and generally abusive behaviour has earned them the title of "Westboro Baptist Church of feminism"[9]; because they are to feminism what the WBC is to Christianity.[10] They are, in short, a hate group that by no means represents mainstream feminism.[11] By virtue of these facts, the TERF movement can actually be understood as being overtly anti-feminist.[note 5]
.
.
.

[wasupaloopa]

8. Are there enough of these people that I should be concerned

about them? This is the first I heard of them.

[xmas74]

10. Small subset

But disturbing that a nurse midwife is one and proudly so. Look at her blog -she includes information about her birthing business.

[tammywammy]

13. There's been a few show up at DU over the years.

[Ms. Toad]

17. Mostly older lesbians,

it was a different time, and there were a lot of dynamics going on that are challenging to explain to anyone who didn't live through it. Many of these women came of age in a time of extreme gender role playing - you were butch or femme. Suffice it to say, having spaces free of male bodies was a matter of emotional safety for many of us who were targeted for rape and sexual abuse not only as women, but specifically as lesbians (much in the way that trans women are currently targeted). The biggest and most vocal group of TERFs ran the Michigan Women's Music Festival - an annual gathering of women in the woods, largely perceved as a safe space for women (primarily lesbians). For one week, women could enjoy the same shirtless (or even less clothed) freedom that men enjoy on a routine basis. Along come trans women, many of whom still have male bodies, and who, early in transition, still exude a male feel to them (e.g. mansplaining, manspreading, taking up far more space on the dance floor than people socialized as women); people with male bodies that were denied to many butches (some of whom would have wanted to transition had the option been available), and people with male bodies from which many women at Michigan were seeking refuge. It made many people with female bodies feel that their only safe space was being invaded by the very people who made the rest of their lives unsafe.

Speaking personally, there have been times in my four-decade long recovery from rape when I needed spaces free from male bodies - the shower/bathroom - where I took refuge immediately after being raped. I waited there for hours while I was waiting for someone to come get me, as the only place I felt at all safe - because I knew/felt that there wouldn't be anyone bearing the weapon that had just been used against me. Note: this is not the random "these men are hiding in the bathroom to attack women or children." For me it was always a purely emotional response to having had a penis used against me. When I'm in the middle of a PTSD attack, it makes no difference who it is attached to. It has been a long time since I felt that way - but it is never far from my emotional memory. Intellectually, I know trans women are women. Not only women, but women who currently face a far bigger threat than I face as a cis-woman. Because of this I never act on those feelings, even on the rare occasion I have them.

I'm not endorsing acting out the unhealthy dynamic - just trying to explain a bit of it.

My daughter's generation is much more inclusive. Gender roles are alot more fluid these days, which seems to make a world of difference.

[wasupaloopa]

25. Now that you explain it to me I can say I had a friend backin the early 80's in Los Angeles that

fits your description. I am male but she never acted unpleasant to me. We just traveled in some of the same circles back then and spent time together occasionally.

I moved to Los Angles from Ohio in 1982 while going through a divorce. I wanted to experience some of the freedoms that marriage and living in Ohio made hard to do. I met a lot of great people in Los Angles who shared the same ideas I had. I am married again going on 31 years but I look back to those days in LA and with those friends fondly.

Thanks for your reply

[MountCleaners]

28. The problem is their presence online

If you go to YouTube to watch videos on trans issues, you will find tons of videos by TERFS. It is something to be concerned about, as they are doing nothing to discourage transphobes from using their videos AND they are misrepresenting feminism.

A lot of them argue things like: menstruation is what makes a woman a woman (in one video I saw, a woman claimed, "my period ROCKS!&quot . No my period does not "rock". I don't like being defined by the fact that I menstruate. And what does that say about women who don't?

[xmas74]

65. I no longer menstruate.

I entered a slightly premature menopause. Does my lack of menstrual blood no longer define me as a woman?

[melman]

11. It definitely is

And it's also pretty shitty of her to use the other woman's photo in this way.

[JI7]

14. fuck them. yes it's bigoted

[pnwmom]

15. I'm confused. Is there really something wrong with midwives, or any of us,

using words like "laboring woman" or "pregnant woman"? Because the writer of the article says she has been directed not to use those terms . . .

These are the guidelines we as midwives are now supposed to use when referring to our pregnant and birthing population in speech and in writing:

You can't say birthing or pregnant woman, you have to say pregnant PERSON
You can't say, laboring woman. It has to be laboring PERSON.
You can't say mother. You have to say PARENT.

Is she just making that up? IOW, is this "fake news"?

[Ms. Toad]

16. Some men and non-binary people give birth.

The request is intended to make the language inclusive to all people giving birth, including those who do not identify as women.

[kcr]

19. If someone explicitly says only born women are real women, of course.

But how is that specific post bigotry? I'm talking about the post being referenced. The picture of the woman announcing her own birth.

[Ms. Toad]

27. The picture was just an illustration

The article was about changing how practitioners refer to clientele, generally (which you can tell from point xx). Like referring to firemen, generally as firefighters, rather than making a gender-specific exception for the few women in the ranks.

[kcr]

31. I was confused at first and thought the attack was on the picture. However

While I think this midwife's rant obviously seems like it comes from a person who doesn't seem particularly supportive of trans rights, I don't think it's right to compare giving birth to professions. It isn't a profession. That doesn't mean I don't think transgender men should receive the same care, nor should they be referred to as women. I think that can be accomplished without pretending that birth isn't a biological function. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. It's still a female biological function, even when transgender men do it. It isn't excluding them and in fact it's erasing acknowledgment of female biological function in a misguided attempt at inclusion. I think that's dangerous right now, for reasons I point out in another post.

[Ms. Toad]

37. Just put yourself in the position of a trans man giving birth, looking for a midwife,

Many of whom, if you are not aware, are Evangelical Christians (I wasn't aware of this until I searched for one when I gave birth to my daughter - it's quite the cottage industry).

I certainly would have welcomed that visual cue that the midwife was aware of and sympathetic to a variety of family types.

I don't know that the terms used are the best, but being more welcoming to all people giving birth - regardless of gender identity is a good thing, as is avoiding gender-specific identifying language when it is not exclusive to one gender.

There are trans women friends of mine who have been denied prostate care, for example, until they permitted their doctors and insurance company to misgender them, so insisting on a link between biology and gender is not just emotionally offensive, it is also medically harmful.

[kcr]

40. I'm sorry everyone can't be as aware as you are, Ms. Toad. We're Trying.

But see. I'm thinking that the best way to get the tough cases like Evangelicals to come around is to actually appeal to their sense of empathy. Midwives, in particular, are the best targets because naturally empathetic people are drawn to that profession, and I think that will just come naturally with time for them. Try to force that on them with top-down policy changes like the ones mentioned in the OP won't do that. They're just guaranteed to piss everyone off.

[Ms. Toad]

52. Evangelical midwives are not going to adopt that languages

But it would allow men and non-binary individuals giving birth to identify a friendly midwife. If the message isn't suggested, even the most supportive midwives aren't likely to come up with it on their own.

FWIW we used an Evangelical Christian midwife (and took pre-birth classes with a whole bunch of couples who believed we were going to hell &our doctor is of the same cloth) I spend most of my life in the cis-straight world, and there are a lot of people who are lgbt allies because they know me. That said, I also engage in top-down work - because individual contact only goes so far.

[kcr]

54. But there's nothing stopping friendly midwives from adopting that language anyway

There's nothing stopping Evangelicals from refusing to adopt that language. I want to be clear. I'm not against gender neutrality in general to foster inclusivity. I think it's a good idea and I fully support it. But regarding issues of reproduction, I'm hesitant because there's still a fight going on in that area, and I'm sorry, but the whole TERF thing has a HUGE misogynistic anti-feminist agenda pushing it. That particular woman ranting in the OP is ridiculous though and I agree with someone else in this thread who thinks she's probably just a concern trolling moron.

[Ms. Toad]

59. The point is they don't know to do it

Until someone suggests it, which seems to me like what triggered this rant. And likely a few midwives adopted the suggestion.

[kcr]

61. Come on, now.

Yeah, sometimes it is just ignorance. But do you really think the woman in the OP who is ranting is receptive at all? I don't. Not for a second.

[Ms. Toad]

66. No - i don't. But others present wherever the message was given may be.

And, I'm betting that it would not have occurred to a bunch of people even in this thread - and people who otherwise would want to be inclusive - that there are men and nonbinary individuals who might not feel welcome in practices that exclusively speak of women as those giving birth.

[kcr]

82. There are a whole lot of things that don't occur to people

Here's one. It's possible to both be a feminist and support the trans community. You don't have to pick one.

Yes. Two people can play at this game.

[xmas74]

71. I know someone right now who identifies

As asexual. A. accepts the use of female pronouns in a professional setting but in personal matters prefers neutral pronouns. A. is also due in February with baby number one.
It's more than even trans. IMO, simply sitting down and speaking to someone about how they preferred to be addressed is a matter of good manners and common courtesy.

[Ms. Toad]

73. +1000

[kcr]

76. Does anyone bother to actually read what others say on DU?

I've clearly said that I support this. But TERF TERF TERFFITY TERF! Repeat a lie enough and people believe it. Smearing people and slurs work. Edit I meant this in reply to Ms. Toad. She seems bound and determined to convince others I do not support this.

[xmas74]

92. I wondered why you replied

I had read it. I've read every comment on this thread.

[Nevernose]

67. Call me Loretta

There is nothing new under the sun...

[pnwmom]

23. Well, if a particular man gives birth, then the medical personnel should refer to him as a him.

But does that really mean we need to stop talking about laboring and pregnant women?

[xmas74]

72. I looked at a few of her things

And then spoke to a CNM educator that I know irl. She says the push isn't towards dismissing terms used for labor and birth. She explained it as good manners and common courtesy towards a patient. If a cis woman is pregnant use feminine pronouns. A trans man, use masculine unless they request otherwise. She explained it as being no different than asking if a woman named Elizabeth prefers it over Beth,Bess, Liz or Eliza.

[kcr]

22. Not fake in that this apparently actually happened from what I could find re Google

She could have made her point far more elegantly, however. Social justice warrior? But there was a point in there and people can call me a TERF if they want to. I really don't give a shit because the basis for that slur is that women have achieved total equality so they can be erased now. It's total bullshit. We don't have to make the fight for equality a zero sum game. Women give birth. Women are still fighting for equality. Women are still fighting for reproductive rights. Why in the HELL are we even arguing that any of that has to be ignored? It's insanity. I don't see why our identity has to be completely erased, and our fight made much harder in the process, in order to recognize the rights and equality of others? Ridiculous. I mostly see TERF used by sketchy anti-feminist types more than I see it in the LGBTQ community anyway.

[alarimer]

80. No, there isn't.

It's a bunch of foolish bullshit.

[kcr]

20. So, I read the post. Do transgender women not like being called women?

Last edited Wed Nov 29, 2017, 04:43 AM - Edit history (1)

I was not aware of that. What is the source of this post? And, "social justice warriors?" Hmmm.

I googled and apparently, it was a real thing, the attempted name change. But they didn't. I still think this is a right wing nutjob rant with the SJW language. I've never known too many feminists that use that term.

[xmas74]

24. Exactly.

I know a CNM educator and she said most of what is being worked on is,more than anything, a way to make the patient comfortable. They are using non gendered pronouns in classroom settings to get students used to stepping outside of their zones. In a clinical setting it's the simple idea of going with what makes a client feel comfortable.

It's not much different than when my midwife asked me if I preferred Mrs, Ms or Miss and if I had a nickname I liked using.

[Ms. Toad]

26. You have it backwards.

Although there are trans individuals who do not identify as binary (thus neither man nor woman is appropriate), TERFs are cis feminist women who refuse to acknowledge that trans women are women.

As to this specific setting, trans men giving birth do not want to be referred to as women, because they aren't.

[kcr]

29. TERF is a slur

Is there an equivalent for men? Of course there isn't. There's no push to exclude mentioning penises because that excludes trans men. There's no derogatory term for men who would rightly feel that's ridiculous. Because that never happens. TERF is just another way to slur feminism, and they point to a few women who are bigots to smear all feminists to justify it.

[MountCleaners]

30. I understand why the term exists

...but you are right in that they are transphobes just like all of the other transphobes out there, why not just call them what they are. As a cis woman, I don't want a "TERF" telling me what a woman is, or how I ought to experience being a woman. This is called "essentialism" and I thought feminists dealt with it a long time ago.

I have to admit the misogyny cataloged on this site disturbed me.

https://terfisaslur.com/

However, how many of those tweets and posts are really from Nazis? Anyone can go online, say they are transgender, and harass feminists and make trans people look like violent jerks to boot.

[kcr]

32. Exactly. Call a transphobe a transphobe.

Don't lump them in with all feminists in order to advance an agenda.

[Ms. Toad]

33. You apparently have not encountered self-identified feminists of this variety

I have very personal experience with them. While it may have negative connotations, they are accurate and deserved. These radical feminists (and they are, I'm nearly every sense of the word), intentionally exclude trans women from women only space. Many intentionally misgender transwomen and deadname them. As to trans women, this small branch of feminists is as transphobic as any right winger. (Several were tombstoned on DU a great years ago for their transphobic comments.)

I am not going to stop accurately naming this group of feminists, merely because others are using the term more broadly than it actually applied - given the trauma this small group has inflicted on trans friends of mine.

[kcr]

35. I'm not claiming transphobic people don't exist.

I don't understand how I can make it any clearer. TERF is a slur. Are men slurred in this way? How come it's only feminists? I never get an explanation for that.

[Oneironaut]

41. Men can be TERFs too. It's not an identity-based label. It's based only on one's beliefs.

One is a TERF is they don't believe that transwomen are "real women" while using Feminism to hide their bigotry.

[kcr]

43. Again. Guess what the F in TERF stands for? n/t

[Ms. Toad]

44. Because these women self-identified as radical feminists

But insist that trans women are not women. It isn't just about being transphobic-it is about claiming the mantle of radical feminism - but very intentionally labeling trans women as men, and excluding them from participation and from the vision of women's equality. I first encountered this group of women in the early 70s - although the message was a bit broader then -all men are the enemy, so you can"t be a feminist if you are sleeping with them. I haven't heard the message that broadly stated in recent years, but it continues in a milder form in the cruel and the intentional exclusion of trans women from the vision of this small group of radical feminists.

There are people who label all feminists with whatever broad-brush slur they can. That's not going to stop. But I think we do ourselves harm by not calling out and labeling fringe groups for what they are, and TERF describes precisely who these individuals are - radical feminists who exclude trans women from their ranks.

As for why no similar label for men- I am not aware of any similar group of men who radically advocate for men' rights, yet deliberately exclude trans men.

[kcr]

46. So that gives people permission to slur all feminists?

All kinds of bigots insist that trans women aren't women. But somehow it's okay to make a special label to smear feminism with it, as if transphobia is somehow specific to feminism? The answer is it isn't okay. There is an agenda here. The implication is feminism, specifically 2nd wave feminism, is the direct cause of transphobia.

[Ms. Toad]

55. It is not a slur on all feminists -

It is an accurate, and negative, label of a small subset of feminists, which I will continue to use for that group of women until they stop excluding trans women. I never have, and never will use it to refer to feminists, in general -
and, frankly, anyone who does isn't fond of women's equality-and I'd be shocked if they even knew the word. The people I hear using it are, like me, people who know exactly how offensive to true feminism these women are.

But if you hear people using it improperly, feel free to jump all over them.

[kcr]

57. Well, slur away!

If it makes you feel good.

[Ms. Toad]

69. Feminazi is a right wing slur against all feminists.

TERF is an accurate description of a small group of radical feminists who intentionally exclude transwomen.

What about it is not an accurate description of this subgroup of feminists? Yes, it has a negative connotation but that is because in feminist circles, exclusion of trans individual is negative.

As far as being a right wing slur against feminists - in what world do right wingers believe exclusion of transpeople is a bad thing? Frankly, they would be cheering the exclusion of trans women, and it would be a badge of honor - not a slur.

TERF is a term primarily used by feminists and trans individuals to distinguish the small subgroup of feminists that intentional excludes transwomen.

[kcr]

78. Transphobia has nothing to do with feminism.

Last edited Thu Nov 30, 2017, 10:42 AM - Edit history (1)

TERF is a slur meant to imply that feminism is homophobic. Period. End of story.

[Ms. Toad]

85. These women are not homophobic,

In fact, every one I know is a lesbian. They are radical feminists - they just refuse to accept transwomen as women.

Even if you believe it is a slur against feminists (a ridiculous concept, because it is a label for a very small subgroup -that I have never heard used to describe feminists, generally), the designation had zero connection to homophobia.

[kcr]

87. Wait, what?

Ok, first the slur thing. Yes, the fact that a certain group felt that this obviously right wing rant (because SJW not a clue) was an obvious opportunity to jump on radfems and feminazis and post their links to explanations about TERF, is a clear example of what I'm talking about. Your personal observations that they're all lesbians really just adds to my perception that it's all bias and bigotry behind the TERF label. So, yeah. Thanks for that. ETA I changed the title of the post to Transphobia, which is what I meant.

[Oneironaut]

39. TERF is a well deserved "slur." It offends the TERFs, just like how white supremacists hate being

called "Nazis." Both are bigoted extremists who have a lot in common with each other. When called on their bullshit, they dance around their real beliefs and whine about being called what they really are.

A TERF is a TERF. They're no more a part of Feminism than the KKK are Christians, and yet both groups try to bury their way into the mainstream through these respective groups.

[kcr]

42. The people who insist TERFS exist do not make the distinctions you're making.

Guess what the F in TERF stands for? A TERF is a TERF? Well, how can I possibly argue against that airtight reasoning?

[Oneironaut]

45. It stands for "Feminist."

I'm not sure what your point is. Men can be Feminists too.

[kcr]

47. That is indeed my point.

Linking feminists with transphobia is indeed the agenda. The implication is that it is the cause of transphobia. It is bullshit. Men can support feminism. But feminism is a women's movement.

[Oneironaut]

48. There is no "agenda." The supposed "agenda" is a right wing strawman created to discredit the LGBTQ

community. It's thinly-veiled bullshit.

[kcr]

49. I think we're actually agreeing with each other, then.

TERF is a right wing construct.

[Oneironaut]

50. Not at all. There are real TERFs who hate transpeople.

There is no effort, however, by the LGBTQ community to undermine Feminism. That's the type of bigoted bullshit that this article is pushing. It's typical right-wing concern trolling.

[kcr]

51. There are real transphobic people who happen to identify as feminists, who hate transpeople

TERF is a right-wing, anti-feminist slur. In real life, I've only ever encountered it from MRA types.

[Oneironaut]

53. There is a sub on Reddit called "GenderCritical," for example, that is used by TERFs.

It's a small but vocal group of people that shouldn't be ignored. I would paint them in the same way as MRAs - collectives of extremists that live in their own bubbles.

[kcr]

56. Reddit, tho?

I'll just repeat my points. It's not ok to smear people due to a small but vocal group.

[Oneironaut]

58. If you call Westboro Church out for being bigots, is that an attack on all Christianity?

It's the same thing with TERFs and Feminism. TERFs are Feminists, but are extremists who don't represent Feminism. If you were to give Westboro Baptist Church a unique label, it would be just for them, not for all Christians.

Reddit is just an obvious example I could think of. There have been other examples of TERF extremists throughout history. It's nothing new.

[kcr]

60. It is if you call them an acronym made specifically for Christians.

As to imply that it's their Christianness that makes them bigots. If there's an acronym with a C in it for Christian bigots and they call the members of Westboro Baptist Church members that name, then we have an equivalency!

[Oneironaut]

62. Christianity (or Feminism) is just the ideology that they are a part of, but they're extremists.

You can be an extremist in any ideology. We frequently call people "Right-Wing Christian Extremists" here. Let's say it was shortened to "RWCE." Calling "RWCE" bigots doesn't mean that they're bigots because of their ideology. However, the ideological part of their extremism shouldn't be ignored. It's like if you had a bunch of apples, but two of those apples are rotten. The rotten apples are still apples, but "rotten" is just a way to describe them.

In the same way, while TERFs are Feminists, Feminism doesn't make them bigots. That is not implied anywhere. TERFs are just extremists who are also Feminists.

[kcr]

63. Yes, it is. So, there's no reason to associate their bigotry with it.

When you do, you're practicing a form of bigotry yourself. So, don't create acronyms with the ideology they just happen to be a part of, unless you want to associate that bigotry with that ideology they're a part of. The people who are doing that have an agenda.

[Ms. Toad]

68. Thank you for weighing in.

Not that you got any farther than I did.

[kcr]

77. There's no need to get through to anyone here, oh wise one n/t

[Ms. Toad]

86. Rather obviously, there is

I have interacted with this particular subgroup of feminists, who you seem hell-bent on denying are being accurately labeled by mainstream feminists for what they are - trans-exclusionary.

It is not a term used by right-winger. It was created, and continues to be used by feminists.

[gollygee]

81. You feel like men can be feminists, but they absolutely do not.

This label is only for women. I have known people like this and I assure you they would not include men.

[RhodeIslandOne]

75. Sounds like a No True Scotsman argument n/m

[kcr]

79. Only to someone who doesn't understand what a No True Scotsman fallacy is.

What does homophobia have to do with feminism? Edited, I mean transphobia.

[RhodeIslandOne]

88. Youre saying no true feminist could be transphobic

I’m sure they’d say 1) They aren’t transphobic and 2) They don’t care that you think they are transphobic or think they aren’t feminists.

[kcr]

89. No, I'm not and I have no idea why you're reading a very clear sentence that way.

Transphobia has nothing to with feminism does not mean no true feminist could be transphobic. What logic are you using to read the sentence that way. It logically does not follow.

[RhodeIslandOne]

90. No, I clearly cant follow your semantics

And I’m not alone.

[kcr]

91. You mean my semantics where I actually talk about feminists who are transphobic?

Post 51, right in the title:

"51. There are real transphobic people who happen to identify as feminists, who hate transpeople"

I don't think that's particularly hard to follow.

[gollygee]

83. No it doesn't

I am torn on the argument about whether TERF is a slur. I see both sides.

But the argument is not that no true feminist is transphobic, which would be the no true scotsman fallacy. The argument is that the label TERF unfairly links transphobia and feminism, but at no time denies that these women are feminists. I think KCR's argument would be that they should simply be called transphobic. Or maybe feminists who are trasnphobic? I guess I don't see why they can't just be called TERFs if they're going to be called radical feminists who are transphobic. It seems like they're so similar. But the acronym is thrown around pretty carelessly against feminists in general too, and maybe that's KCR's point.

I have known radical feminists, and I'm from Michigan so I'll include some who go (went? I think it was cancelled?) to the Michigan Women's Festival, and I would definitely call them feminists and I would call a lot of them at least somewhat transphobic. I guess I can see the reasoning behind the name TERF, but I see the argument that some people use it as a slur to throw against all feminists too.

This feels very complicated to me. I'm the mom of someone who identifies as non-binary so I feel emotionally mixed up in this issue too.

[kcr]

84. Yes. That is my point.

You can see it not so subtly happening to me in this thread. I've made it clear I fully support gender neutral pronouns and calling people however they wish to be addressed. I explained that I was initially confused by the OP and thought it was about the picture in the thread when I initially responded and had it backwards and think the rant is homophobic, as the OP stated. They're clearly a right wing troll ranting about social justice warriors and they're full of shit. But I probably muddied the waters by my post about TERF and my opinion on that. I feel like my position is clearly being misrepresented and that's typical.

[Initech]

34. The term "social justice warrior" is right wing hate speech.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice_warrior

[Oneironaut]

36. This is 101% a Cool Story Bro.

FFS - If you are proud of giving birth, you are not a transphobe. Biological women give birth. Transwomen currently cannot (though this may change very soon). Being trans myself, I found the "rules" listed by the author to be absurd (if not totally made up). Most of the trans community does not even care about this nonsense, and only wants to be treated like everybody else (because we are).

This is an example of right wingers playing the victim. It's like how white Christians are being systematically oppressed, and straight people are being attacked by the LGBTQ "agenda." They resort to taking absurd positions found on Tumblr (which are easy to find, as Tumblr is full of 17 year old know-it-alls who think they have the world figured out) and blowing them even further out of proportion.

This is total bullshit, and the agenda is obvious. This is classic TERF / bigot concern trolling. They want to make us look like whiny fools so that nobody will listen to our real problems.

[xmas74]

64. I have a friend who is a trans woman.

I haven't even asked her how she felt about this. I thought it might be too sensitive of a subject, especially since she would weigh in by answering.

I just don't want her to get hurt by rude,insensitive comments any more than has already happened. I felt the post was transphobic and I was called out over saying it.

[moriah]

70. I know TERFs. I've actually had to give turf to two t-women negotiating with semi-TERFs...

... over whether their land would continue to remain closed to all but XX-chromosome, female-identifying women after dark. Even during negotiations they weren't going to break the rule, so the four-person delegation stayed at my home (the womb-bearing women, called that only because in this case both still had theirs instead of having had a hysterectomy prior, accompanying the transwomen weren't going to abandon them).

Admittedly, it was their land, and these same people are all part of the Radical Faerie movement, which respects the right for gay men identifying as men to have their own Sanctuaries (although most are inclusive of even the "differently queer&quot . They were considered a group to negotiate with because they were somewhat welcoming to transwomen during daytime festivities, they still felt some "mysteries" about childbirth and menstruation could only be understood by people with that anatomy. The reason for the "after dark" restriction in their minds was "safety", which the delegation was trying to address.

They did succeed in getting the group to allow vouched-for transwomen to be allowed to stay after dark, but it still wasn't a victory in overcoming the prejudice against dick-bearers to make the wombyn at that sanctuary feel safe unless a wombyn had vouched for their character.

[RobinA]

74. Sounds To Me

like some people who are on outs with the thought police.